A school has asked me to do a bit of work for them. I'm quite happy to do it, and had assumed that it was a freebie.
But now they are absolutely insisting that they pay me. No bad thing on the face of it, I guess.
The slightly silly bit is that whilst doing it for free was fine by me, doing it for cheap is a bit [lot] annoying. I'd rather do it for nothing, but diplomatically I've agreed to charge them. Ironic really, there was a time I would have sold my soul for the money.
I feel that they may pass out if I shared my usual charge levels with them. So, does anybody have the slightest clue what hourly rate a school in the UK would pay for a contractor?
Or failing that, what does a relief teacher get paid? That'll probably be close enough.
[I can work it out if I get a point of reference, I just don't know where to start, its not really my field]
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 18 Aug 15 at 01:07
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£100/day? I know on the low side for you. Just an educated guess. Probably more like £80-£150.
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>>Charity Mark...
I offered free. I maintained I was happy on free. In they end they are insisting on paying.
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>> >>Charity Mark...
>>
>> I offered free. I maintained I was happy on free. In they end they are
>> insisting on paying.
Tell them you won't charge them as long as they don't sue you!
Seriously, just ask them what they think the market rate is for what they have asked you to do.
Genuine consultancy - knowledge rather than labour - isn't really about time, is it?
When Ruskin's barrister asked, in 1878, "The labour of two days, is that for which you asked two hundred guineas?", Whistler replied
"No, I ask it for the knowledge I have gained in the work of a lifetime."
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An acquaintance has recently retired from the police force. In his early fifties, he approached a local school and asked if they required a mentor. It is a large school, and they thought it a great idea if he could give talks to all age groups, and have 1 to 1 s with unruly/ disruptive pupils. He was happy to work a few days a week free of charge, but they offered him a four day week job, no work outside of classroom hours, and £20k a year!
He works 30 hours over 4 days, taking into account lunch breaks, so maybe pro rata that.
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Supply teacher rate are in order of £100-£160 depending on what's needed. Daily 'class sitting' is at lower end of scale, the higher rates apply to those with extra qualifications/experience covering subject teachers' full timetable.
Those are rates for DfE registered qulaified teachers. Cover supervisors get much less.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 18 Aug 15 at 08:38
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Thank you guys. I can work with that information.
I find free less depressing than cheap.
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I agree with you mark.
Free is good and a deal you can be content with. You can happily do a good professional job free, its social payback.
A professional job paid for however, needs to be paid at the professional rate. Its business.
there is no halfway house.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 18 Aug 15 at 10:40
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I presume you will be an employee - otherwise you ought to consider indemnity & public liability insurances, and you'd need a vehicle to invoice thru (either an umbrella company or your own Ltd) which can be a faff. I'm sure you know that... :-)
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Thanks for the thought Smokie, I'm up on all that stuff.
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>>there is no halfway house.
Exactly.
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Maybe you could donate whatever they do pay you to charity, thus keeping you happy that you are doing it for free, and a deserving cause benefits as a happy consequence. Maybe there are deserving educational causes in Chile you could give the money to.
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It is not their decision .All or nothing.
If they insist on paying just say that you will either not do it for them or they accept your normal rate .
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>>
>> It is not their decision .All or nothing.
>>
>> If they insist on paying just say that you will either not do it for
>> them or they accept your normal rate .
Unreasonable, unless he is doing his normal job or forgoing an opportunity to do so somewhere else.
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>>Unreasonable, unless he is doing his normal job
Prezactly. Its not my normal type of job. Hence I need to work out what might be the commercial rate for such a job.
My normal rates are justified by the value I bring. And that value is usually measured in monetary terms.
This job does not justify my skills and most certainly would not justify my rates.
I would expect to be better at it than someone else because of my skillset and experience, but that's a quality matter and reflects more on the standard of resource that would normally do this job rather than the value of mine.
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>>If they insist on paying just say that you will either not do it for them or they accept your normal rate .
1) I want to do it. (not a great negotiating position)
2) This is not marginal for them; there is an order of magnitude between what I would normally charge and what this job is probably worth.
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>> I agree with you mark.
>>
>> Free is good and a deal you can be content with. You can happily do
>> a good professional job free, its social payback.
>>
>> A professional job paid for however, needs to be paid at the professional rate. Its
>> business.
>>
>> there is no halfway house.
>>
There's mates rates, that's in between full whack and free.
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>>There's mates rates, that's in between full whack and free.
I don't do mates' rates. Would you accept "mates' quality"?
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That's entirely up to you whether you want to do it or not. I'm just saying that something exsists between the two and it's pretty common.
Do you mean that mates rates jobs are poor quality?
If so I've never had a problem with the quality of stuff I've had done at mates rates.
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>>Do you mean that mates rates jobs are poor quality?
No.
I mean why would you expect me to charge less in my profession, mates or not? You wouldn't accept me doing a less good job, would you?
I am quite happy to talk easy terms, but I completely fail to understand why I should charge less than the going rate.
I can understand why I might do it for free, although that's rare. I do not understand why I would do it cheap.
Each to their own though.
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I do not understand why I would do it cheap.
>>
It's in the name, mates rates.
I never ask for mates rates, it's just the done thing on occaision when I/other people do jobs. But these aren't work in the sense of what you are doing here, although perhaps that doesn't matter. More tradesmans type jobs etc. It was quite common and still is where I was brought up.
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>>But these aren't work in the sense of what you are doing here, although perhaps that doesn't matter
I think there is no difference. We both have some skill or ability of value to sell. We sell that ability or skill to make our living.
What that ability or skill actually is doesn't really become relevant.
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>> >>But these aren't work in the sense of what you are doing here, although perhaps
>> that doesn't matter
>>
>> I think there is no difference. We both have some skill or ability of value
>> to sell. We sell that ability or skill to make our living.
>>
>> What that ability or skill actually is doesn't really become relevant.
>>
I agreed with you, like I said perhaps it doesn't matter what sort of job it is.
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The chap who does my cars, when they aren't going to the dealer, is a good friend.
I expect to pay him the going rate. He has a living to earn, and doing it cheap because I'm his friend is about as logical as me paying him more because he's my friend.
Occasionally he does me a favour, such as mending a puncture, and when I wanted to go and look at a second hand car he came with me.
The benefit to me of dealing with a mate is that I am dealing with somebody I know and trust - I'm already better off than dealing with somebody I don't really know, at the same rate.
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That's what I mean;
Doing a favour is one thing, we all do that. But why mates rates? Its my job.
I will happily come and help you dig your garden, wash your car or whatever, that's not my job, that's helping a friend.
I like Manatee's statement which sums it up for me;
"I expect to pay him the going rate. He has a living to earn, and doing it cheap because I'm his friend is about as logical as me paying him more because he's my friend. "
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Oh and another thing;
I like things done properly.
How can I go back to someone and say "oi, that just ain't good enough" if he's giving me mates rates?
I'd rather he charge me the market rate, because sure as s*** I'm going to expect market performance, including market levels of after sales.
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Exactly. The man who installed our kitchen and has done some other improvement work on our house is a member of my cricket team. (He keeps wicket, I field at first slip, so we know each other pretty well.) I've no idea whether he charges me less than his usual rate, but what we've paid him has always seemed fair. But more importantly I know he'll do a decent job and be back to fix any problems, and that I can trust him to work unsupervised in my house; beats the Yellow Pages any day.
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>> I expect to pay him the going rate. He has a living to earn, and
>> doing it cheap because I'm his friend is about as logical as me paying him
>> more because he's my friend.
Not every money transaction is about unremitting logic.
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Exactly, sooty.
Blimey, do the job, let them pay you what they are happy to pay you, and give the money to a charity. What's the big problem?
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But I think best summed up earlier on, each to their own. If people don't want to pay or recieve mates rates then that's their own business. I was just pointing out that there is an area in between free and full whack and is commonly used.
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> What's the big problem?
Me.
I am happy to do it for free. (Which they turned down)
I am happy to do it for the market rate. (Which was what I was trying to work out)
I am *not* happy to do it cheap. (Which, in this case at least, is seemingly unavoidable).
Giving it to charity has no impact or bearing on how much is given to me.
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>> Giving it to charity has no impact or bearing on how much is given to
>> me.
>>
Ask them to make a donation to charity at their discretion in lieu of payment to you. You could perhaps give them a ballpark figure.
You won't be paid, you won't know how much they've donated, everyone's a winner.
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You're missing the point Al.
I am happy to do the work for free. Quite happy.
If they insist on valuing that work with a financial amount, then I am more comfortable with an accurate valuation.
And they wish to pay me, not hand it off to some charity. And if i wish to give money to a charity, then I will, but it won't affect my feelings about the contract.
I don't care who gets the money, its the valuation that matters.
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Hokey dokey. Can't see an answer then if you refuse to get over your blind spot regarding the matter this once.
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Its hardly a blind spot. An obsession perhaps, but I am most aware of it, not blind at all.
Neither did I say I could not get past it, I just said it bothered me.
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I took your saying that you had an inability to let things slide as a statement that you couldn't get past it.
Not quite sure what you're trying to get out of this thread now so I'll leave it there. Hope whatever you decide to do leaves everyone involved happy.
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> I don't care who gets the money, its the valuation that matters.
You are quite correct as often you are.
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>> Not every money transaction is about unremitting logic.
I take your point, but in my mind EVERY money transaction is absolutely about unremitting logic. Every and Always.
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>>
>> >> Not every money transaction is about unremitting logic.
>>
>> I take your point, but in my mind EVERY money transaction is absolutely about unremitting
>> logic. Every and Always.
>>
Yes, I've figured that out, bit of a problem in this circumstance though.
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>>bit of a problem in this circumstance though.
Ain't that the truth.
Anyway, I've repeated that I will do it for free but if they insist on paying me then it will be £x per hour.
Which I've based on the comments here plus a bit.
We shall see.
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>> >>bit of a problem in this circumstance though.
>>
>> Ain't that the truth.
>>
>
How about letting all the worry about what the right amount, slide just this once? You never know you might like, I think we should all try and learn and experience new things. Maybe this is one for you? Ask for less than you think it should be, I going to guess the money doesn't matter and the world won't stop turning if you do.
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>>How about letting all the worry about what the right amount, slide just this once?
If I could do that, and many other similar and related things, then I would be much more relaxed and probably happier.
If you could get me to do that, my parents, wife and children would all willingly fund your retirement.
But in my defence it is my inability to let things slide that makes me good at what I do.
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>> >>How about letting all the worry about what the right amount, slide just this once?
>>
>> If I could do that, and many other similar and related things, then I would
>> be much more relaxed and probably happier.
>>
>> If you could get me to do that, my parents, wife and children would all
>> willingly fund your retirement.
Sounds like a challenge, but I wouldn't want that much, mates rates would be fine.
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A problem that I can see is that you will set their expectation level at an unrealistic level for future activities. If you perform 'professionally' ie at a level well above that which would be offered by somebody whose day rate is £150, either they will be back for (much?) more of your time at this rate, or will find that somebody else is ' employed' in the future and then fails to deliver the expected results.
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>>and then fails to deliver the expected results.
The quality of consultants and/or contractors in this world is appalling. Truly, truly awful.
It is beyond me how they can live with themselves.
They survive, even profit, because typically they are engaged by people even less capable than they are.
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>> The quality of consultants and/or contractors in this world is appalling. Truly, truly awful.
>>
little bit of a generalisation Mark
I would agree that the quality of consultants / contractors is variable but there are a lot of us out there in these kind of roles who do deliver quality and value for the rate paid
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Commerdriver - indeed lots are valuable.
But I'd state pretty firmly that I believe them to be in the minority. A large minority perhaps, but still a minority.
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Most people are essentially incapable of doing the job they are paid to do.
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For goodness sake Mark, just charge them your normal (top end) rate per hour and insist that you donate it back to the school fund via the PTA or some such organisation they have.
You get to do a good job because you're being paid a top rate for the job, they get to keep their accounts in order and ultimately the school still benefits form an unexpected donation.
Everyone's happy.
Pat
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>>For goodness sake Mark
I think you missed the bit, about an hour before you posted this, where I said I'd already been back to them with a rate.
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>> Most people are essentially incapable of doing the job they are paid to do.
While I yield to none for misanthropy and scepticism, I feel that may be an overstatement Mapmaker. Some of course, but 'most'? How come civilization hasn't collapsed yet, with nearly everyone so hopeless?
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You owe it to yourself and other freelances to charge what the market will bear.
'Ask for a hundred, take sixty,' a shrewd friend advised me some years ago.
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"'Ask for a hundred, take sixty,' a shrewd friend advised me some years ago."
'Tell them it will take 4 hours, do it in one' (or something like that), Scotty, Engine Room, USS Enterprise.
Excellent advice, I work on that principal... except I tell them it took 4 hours, charge them for 4 hours and work on something else for the other three.
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Thank you everyone for your input, so this afternoon we agreed a deal and since you helped I thought you may be interested in the outcome;
I quoted them my normal rate for my normal work and another, much smaller, rate which I thought represented the value to them of this engagement.
We stepped away from money and spent a lot of time discussing the approach and defining the deliverables they wanted and over what time frame that would be needed.
I explained to them that I don't like doing things at a cheap rate although I didn't mind doing them for free. Loads of discussion, all amicable, and to be honest they seemed to understand what I was trying to say - clearly I explain my feelings in words much more effectively than I do in type.
I then proposed, and they accepted, that I would do the work for free and deliver all agreed deliverables to them on date X. If they are happy with the result they will buy the end result from me for a lump sum which would equate, if I worked it out, to about £40 per hour based on my thinking of the amount of my time it will take.
They are happy with what they are getting and happy with my commitment and risk sharing. Whether others understand or not, I am happy not to have to deal with a value of my hours that I don't like. And then I get a nice cheque just in time for a spot of Chrimble boozing.
I know it equates to £x per hour worked, but emotionally it doesn't feel like that. I don't have to record and invoice my hours, I do not have to explain my activity or whereabouts, I don't have to deal with the fact that I want to go home and £x per hour is not enough to make me want to stay, I just need to do what I think appropriate to deliver the commitments and be true to my word - both better motivators for me than money.
I know this is my silly hang up, but thanks to all for giving me the ideas that helped me reach a happy agreement.
Although I am now in gainful employment again, dammit. Still, retiring permanently is easy. I've done it loads of times, so I'll just do it again in December.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 19 Aug 15 at 22:38
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>> Still, retiring permanently is easy. I've done it loads of times, so I'll just do it again in December.
God you must be rich FMR. I can never retire.
Not that working does much good financially even if there is any work. But one has to try, matter of pride.
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>> >>and then fails to deliver the expected results.
>>
>> The quality of consultants and/or contractors in this world is appalling. Truly, truly awful.
>>
>> It is beyond me how they can live with themselves.
>>
>> They survive, even profit, because typically they are engaged by people even less capable than
>> they are.
>>
Oh so very true. No conscience 99% of them.
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I should have added that yr attitude to freelances of different levels is pretty impeccable.
I'm impressed actually by yr ingenious and carefully-priced suggestions for paying freelances. I couldn't begin or be bothered to come up with something like that, but someone certainly needs to.
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>>I should have added that yr attitude to freelances of different levels is pretty impeccable.
Thank you. I hope so.
Having been fortunate enough to spend most of my life being paid to do stuff I love to do, I do try to do it well.
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I'm b***** shattered. I mean, dead on my feet knackered.
This job might be a lower pay grade than I sometimes do but its damned hard work.
Feet hurt (schools are very spread out), exhausted after 5.9m conversations with 23m teachers, 17m supervisors and 4m people explaining to me why they are better placed than I am (approximate numbers) and still got to write a preliminary report by Wednesday.
And Dear God!! I thought my two could make some noise; several hundred of them are barbaric. It bought a whole new understanding of and feelings of empathy with Lord of the Flies - its no b***** surprise to me that Golding was a teacher.
Any teachers or teachers spouses here? (I know that there are) You have my admiration for your stamina.
I think I prefer "difficult" work. I don't like the real world. It hurts.
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I taught briefly in a horrible South London private school. The place was awful but I was even worse, didn't know what I was doing. I used to get plastered with the alcoholic school gardener in lunch hour. That made things even worse in the afternoon classes. Even the nippers got restive, sanctimonious little brutes.
It was like an extremely low-rent Decline and Fall.
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Any teachers or teachers spouses here?
In August? Not likely - holidays, innit? Lo-o-o-ong holidays.
};---)
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My daughter is a primary school teacher.
The pressure, if you want to be a good teacher, is horrendous.
She slid into depression because of it and it took a year for her to recover. She's eased back into the classroom environment as a Teaching Assistant (low, low, pay, but no real pressure).
Now comes the reality test. She starts next week as a year 5 class teacher, full time, until at least Xmas on a supply teacher basis.
If she is OK with it and the school is OK with her, a proper contract will be on offer. (The Head Teacher is fully aware of her health history)
The pay is good on supply, as she is not on the lowest rate due to the full time class teacher role, but obviously only for days worked, so no pay in holidays, sick days etc.
With her two going to boarding school, the home pressure will be less and the family needs the £££, but I do worry for her.
Funnily enough, in the interim, she's become involved in a MLM sales thing (Forever products) and the motivational stuff they pump out really seems to have done her good, so fingers crossed.
Moral: You never cease worrying about your children!
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I'd just walk away and use my time somewhere else. You have offered them free help in a spirit of goodwill. If they are too bureaucratic to take it then tell them to b off.
It wouldn't give me any satisfaction at all to now charge them a lot. They have tarnished and degraded what was a genuine offer. Go to someone who would appreciate help.
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Sat 29 Aug 15 at 10:54
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Maybe it's a cultural thing where every man and his dog has to have their say before anything is done?
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...inherited from Spain, perhaps, where driving licence renewals are seemingly all done by one man and his dog in Madrid and can take up to three months to arrive back!
I always used a Gestor, as a semi-official letter was produced to the effect that the licence was in process, thus hopefully stopping the "Green Police" from nicking one! (Guardia Civil Trafico, with a fearsome reputation!)
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>> I'd just walk away and use my time somewhere else.
Why would I do that when I'd committed to do something? Because its hard?
>> You have offered them free help in a spirit of goodwill. If they are too bureaucratic to
>> take it then tell them to b off.
And it has been taken that way I think. And of course the school is bureaucratic, inefficient and disorganised. Of course it needs to change. Why else would they need my help?
I assure you that well-organised, open-minded and efficient organisations don't often look to me for help. Not never, but rarely.
>> They have tarnished and degraded what was a genuine offer.
Not really sure where you're getting that from. If its from me, then I obviously mislead you.
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Expected you to say that TBH. You must be used to it. Consultants should expect people whose activities they are looking at to be sceptical if not outright hostile and they usually are.
One, they consider themselves experts in their own job; two, they usually have different objectives to the consultant (and the business).
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>>they consider themselves experts in their own job
[typed on my phone, so sorry for typing and disjointedness]
There are few people in this world who intentionally do a bad job. Most believe that they are doing their job well.
Of course, they are not always right.
So the most common circumstance is for me to deal with someone who tries to do their job correctly, believes themself to being their job correctly, and resents any implication that they are not, but actually are not doing their job as effectively as they could.
Sometimes, in fact most often, its because of the way that they are doing thier job. And often when introduced to different ways of doing thier job they adopt them.
The causes is almost always, perhaps actually always, bad management.
A Manager will manage the most complicated thing that they understand. Frequently the most complicated thing that they understand is timekeeping. At work 8.55 = good, at work 9.05 = bad.
Timekeeping is a dumb thing to enforce. What they should be seeking is the most effective employee performance. Which, of course, may include being at work on time. But the point is to seek effectiveness not administrative attendance.
Frequently developing a virtual gulf between good/desirable performance and bad/undesirable performance does the trick. Trust, autonomy, friendliness, consulting etc. on the one hand, strick management, control, checking and intereference on the other.
Most employees will rise to that. Many managers are not capable of it.
The frequent employee issue is someone who believes that the company can not manage without them. Find the worst, take them out of that "vital" role, out of the company if neccessary, and that issue starts to go away.
One needs to enocurage the development and invesment in employees who whill do good stuff in the future, not on those resting on work they did before that they refuse to share.
If an important employee threatens to quit becuase they don't like change, then stop them. Do whatever you need to do, but stop them. Then spend 6 months getting all their knowledge out of them, push them to a position where they threaten to quite again, and then let them leave the company, even if they change their mind and ask to stay.
Employees may be "let go" because there are too many of them, managers usually because they are not very good.
It is unusual that employees do not eventually welcome a good consultant. It takes management a lot longer.
Surprisingly, or perhaps not, bad consultants are typically readily accepted and supported by the management and yet frequently resented by the employees.
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>>If an important employee threatens to quit becuase they don't like change, then stop them.
>>Do whatever you need to do, but stop them. Then spend 6 months getting all their
>>knowledge out of them, push them to a position where they threaten to quite again, and then
>>let them leave the company, even if they change their mind and ask to stay.
Particularly true in a voluntary organisation. When somebody key threatens to leave (usually the treasurer), too much time is spent changing the organisation to fit in with them. Then they'll leave anyway.
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>>
>> Not really sure where you're getting that from. If its from me, then I obviously
>> mislead you.
>>
>>
No, I made it up :)
It would annoy me, so I felt annoyed on your behalf.
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Hourly rates - rtj70
