I've no compunction about plugging a rat or any other form of vermin, but the people who behave as this American dentist did are lower than low. What the hell would anyone get from paying professional hunters thirty grand to lure your quarry out so that it's a sitting duck for you to kill? Particularly a rather splendid and endangered animal like a lion.
I see the guy is hiding in fear of his life, well now he knows what it feels like to be a hunted species.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 29 Jul 15 at 19:05
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Geezer on the wireless [James O'B] was talking about Cecil this morning, turns out there is more public outcry for the Lion than for the death of a human being from S. Sudan in the chunnel.
But what really gets me is that some dentist crook from Minnesota can fork out 30,000 greenbacks for the pleasure of killing the Lion, while millions of people in the world are dying from starvation.
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>> Geezer on the wireless [James O'B] was talking about Cecil this morning, turns out there
>> is more public outcry for the Lion than for the death of a human being
>> from S. Sudan in the chunnel.
I don't think you can measure one against the other. People are not an endangered species, so while we might say that on an individual basis the human loss is greater, on a species level the lion's is serious and the human loss trivial. Not well expressed, I'm sorry.
The number of tigers left is about the same as the human population of Moreton-in-Marsh, about 3,000. Humans are an utter blight as far as other large wild animals are concerned, and arguably as far as the human race itself is concerned too.
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>> Geezer on the wireless [James O'B] was talking about Cecil this morning, turns out there
>> is more public outcry for the Lion than for the death of a human being
>> from S. Sudan in the chunnel.
>>
>>>>
The guy in the tunnel was taking a chance doing something he knew was illegal and dangerous, however undeserved his death was.
Poor old Cecil was doing nobody any harm.
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>> I don't think you can measure one against the other. People are not an endangered species, so while we might say that on an individual basis the human loss is greater, on a species level the lion's is serious and the human loss trivial
>>The guy in the tunnel was taking a chance doing something he knew was illegal and dangerous, however undeserved his death was.
The saying "One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic" comes into it too because so many asylum seekers have lost their lives in recent years trying to better their lives.
>>Poor old Cecil was doing nobody any harm.
He would have done though, given half a chance ;-)
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Quite staggering really.
Apart from man, and domesticated beasts, the numbers of large mammals are mostly counted in thousands, not millions. The number of lions is estimated to have halved twice since 1970 and there are now thought to be about 30,000; but many of these are in small unsustainable groups.
It's hard to see how there will be any left at all outside zoos and safari parks in another 40 years.
It seems shocking to me that people want to hunt these animals, but in Victorian times by some accounts the news that a species was about to go extinct would have hunters rushing off to shoot and stuff the last one.
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Sod the lion there are plenty of them, there is only one of these
www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/must_see/33695200
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Winnie the ruddy poo, he's been nicked.
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Ah right - it played a migrant video when I clicked on it.
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The fact this guy is a dentist tells you everything you need to know. Bitter failed doctor* taking out his hatred of living things on a grand scale...
* most dentists really want to be proper doctors. This one clearly making a good living off making the all American smile.
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There are thousands of huntin', shootin', fishin' nuts in the States, the dentist is just a bit more extreme than many, possibly because he could afford it.
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Sub Hemingway thuggery vs animal rights sentimentality, as bad as each other if you ask me. Lions aren't a threatened species (let alone buffaloes or zebras).
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 30 Jul 15 at 03:04
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Lions are classified as "vulnerable" on the IUCN Red List. The lion population is in rapid decline worldwide. Interestingly Zimbabwe, which allows trophy hunting and has effective policing of its reserves is one of the few areas where the species is not in decline.
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>> Interestingly Zimbabwe, which allows trophy hunting and has effective policing of its
>> reserves is one of the few areas where the species is not in decline.
Not sure Cecil would agree with you, but then he can't talk about his sudden decline.
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>> Lions aren't a threatened species (let alone buffaloes or zebras).
Nevertheless 'big game hunting Safaris' run by professional hunters and game rangers, cosseted and protected at all times at enormous expense, seem pointless and distasteful to me. It's essentially false adventure, kids' games, vulgar cigar-chomping tourism. One would be ashamed.
Wilfred Thesiger was more the real thing. In his autobiography The Life of my Choice he recounts that during his time as a district officer in (I think) the south-central Sudan he reckons he shot about 50 lions, but not for 'sport': on behalf of locals who were being eaten by them, along with their flocks, and whose basic weapons were spears and bows, their few firearms not being up to the job.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 30 Jul 15 at 15:16
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>> their few firearms not being up to the job.
Thesiger was the last of the gentleman explorers, a man somewhat after his time. He was born in the British legation in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia (then called Abyssinia), and was a lifelong friend and supporter of its emperor, Haile Selassie, a protégé of Thesiger's father.
He was something of a predator himself of course. 'Never married' and enjoyed the company of Arab boys. But in no way, under no circumstances, would a sane person think he was a cat to mess with.
Funny that. I've met a few of those and they're all formidable like that.
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>> >> their few firearms not being up to the job.
Smooth-bore shotguns, at best flintlock or caplock muzzle-loaders and one or two old army carbines. Perhaps 19th-century Martini Henry carbines, as issued to the Indian army, a single shot ejector rifle capable in practised hands of a fair rate of fire. There's a Kipling story about a Martini being sabotaged to injure an unpopular NCO, who is duly maimed and half-blinded when he tries one too many assassinations at long range.
Thesiger of course was a rich Englishman who had a number of quality weapons, large-bore double-barrelled big game rifles from Holland & Holland among others.
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>> large-bore double-barrelled big game rifles from Holland & Holland among others.
Apart from the jaw-dropping cost of such essentially simple weapons, the ammo must be far from free.
US standard .50 calibre, made in such quantity - not always in the US of course - that it is easily obtained under the counter more or less everywhere, still costs $1US a round, and a lot of rounds get fired when push comes to shove with heavy machine guns. The rounds will go right through a normal vehicle or a wooden or adobe building, and can penetrate a breeze-block or brick wall. They will dimple tank or armoured car armour. Holland & Holland special lion dumdums must cost a pretty penny, and in sterling too...
War is quite extravagant, nearly as expensive as motoring.
:o}
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 1 Aug 15 at 18:49
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>> War is quite extravagant, nearly as expensive as motoring.
And like motoring, all too often run on dodgy, burdensome credit...
Heh heh. I love it. Am I evil? I sometimes think so.
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>>Lions aren't a threatened species (let alone buffaloes or zebras).
>>
At 30,000 I'd say they are, but what do I know...if their number has declined from 200,000 in c. 1970 to c. 30,000 now, unless the causes of that have got a whole lot better I'd say they are as good as extinct. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another discussion.
Similar story with pretty well all large predators isn't it? Numbers for most are tiny.
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>> >>Lions aren't a threatened species (let alone buffaloes or zebras).
>> >>
>>
Manatee>> At 30,000 I'd say they are, but what do I know...if their number has declined
>> from 200,000 in c. 1970 to c. 30,000 now,
The point is that whilst they may be threatened in some parts of Africa, in Zimbabwe they need controlling. Like Rhinos in South Africa, apparently.
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>> The point is that whilst they may be threatened in some parts of Africa, in
>> Zimbabwe they need controlling. Like Rhinos in South Africa, apparently.
Sounds as if it's not the lions that need controlling. With 30,000 left, culling a local surplus seems a very narrow view.
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Hi, Zimbabwe speaking, is that the Sudan?
Yes?
Wanna few lions?
You serious? We've got a national debt the size of Greece's and a war going on and you think we want some of your unwanted lions? Manatee'll have 'em.
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>> The fact this guy is a dentist tells you everything you need to know. Bitter
>> failed doctor* taking out his hatred of living things on a grand scale...
Also previously accused of sexual harassment, settled out of court:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3179047/Dentist-killed-Cecil-lion-accused-sexual-harassment-former-employee-practice-settled-court-127-500.html
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The real thus are the Zimbabwean government - starving their people and then creaming off nice profits by letting rich foreigners shoot their wildlife as if it were a fairground.
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Several thoughts.
In general, I have nothing against people paying lots of money to shoot endangered species. The money comes in handy for the ones they don't shoot. This is however subject to some conditions:
1. Shooting has to be humane. Using a bow & arrow possibly is not, and taking 40 hours to die certainly is not. ('Bow hunting' as they call it (of e.g. deer) is illegal in the UK.)
2. It has to be a part of a process whereby the population is carefully managed. Taking out an old and ill-tempered male is often good for the survival of the species. When a particular male has been fathering the young for too long, he begins to mate with his daughters; not good for genetic diversity.
3. Given the management process necessitated in '2' then if you can find some mug to pay £30,000 (€, $?) as well, then splendid. Same thing happens in Scotland with stags.
The death of this particular lion appears to fail '1' and '2'.
More generally, you don't like big game hunting? Well, not everybody likes cars or the Daily Telegraph (or the Guardian); all three of these are regarded as morally repugnant by some. Fortunately it's a free world and we can all get on with our own specific favourite activities.
Finally, that people come and pay big money to shoot trophy beasts often means that the local population - who benefit from the big money - are kinder to the endangered species than would normally be the case. So again, the endangered population wins from managed shooting of endangered beasts.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 30 Jul 15 at 11:15
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It's a handsome beast all right, and looks too idle and somnolent to do anyone or anything any harm. But with weapons like that it wouldn't have to try very hard, one swipe of a mighty paw would do for most mammals.
Giving it a name reduces the beast somehow. Gives the misleading impression that it's cuddly and harmless.
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Pressure from the ever-growing human population does seem to promise that large predators will become extinct unless human beings preserve a few managed populations. It's already been said that such populations have become too small to regenerate healthily, and that means extinctions are inevitable.
They won't be the first or last extinctions.
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Perhaps some of Dog's very rich aliens will appear and hunt us to extinction first.
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I have a feeling we may pre-empt them ourselves...
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Rich yank with to much money and a small willy to make up for his ego.
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"Taking out an old and ill-tempered male is often good for the survival of the speciesi"
So bagging Zero would really be a sort of service to human kind.
I'll get my gun.
:-)
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>> "Taking out an old and ill-tempered ...
Zero's not old!
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The Armadilos get revenge
Texas man injured as bullet ricochets off armadillo
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33748027
Only in the states.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 1 Aug 15 at 18:27
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>> Only in the states...
would an adult think of murdering a nice, charming, rare, threatened creature.
I suppose if you know enough about armadillos you can learn to hate them. But I suspect the Texas man was just firing an unsuitable weapon at a moving target without even thinking about it. Like a 12 or 14 year old.
I hope he gets a persistent skin condition from the ricochet, or rebound perhaps. Armadillos are insanitary little brutes I gather. Lots of vermin between those scales.
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>I suppose if you know enough about armadillos you can learn to hate them.
Armadillos are actually quite cute little critters although their digging can make a mess of your garden. We had a family of them living just over the fence from our pool when we were living in Austin but they luckily they stayed on their own side and never became a nuisance.
Lots of them get hit crossing rural roads and they're nicknamed 'Texas Speed Humps'. The poor things are abused even in death, it's quite common to see dead 'dillos on the roadside laying on their back, feet in the air with an empty beer bottle on their chest.
farm4.staticflickr.com/3158/2680181905_488628c31f.jpg
Why anyone would want to shoot one is beyond me, they keep loads of nasty invertebrates under control.
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>> Armadillos are actually quite cute little critters although their digging can make a mess of your garden. We had a family of them living just over the fence from our pool when we were living in Austin but they luckily they stayed on their own side and never became a nuisance.
My very point, they are cute. You have to be a brute and idiot to fire your .38 at one without a second thought. 'Plinking' they call it, going round shooting objects and creatures.
I can't remember seeing an armadillo. But lying in the middle of a remote country road in Nebraska once, in the middle of the night, whether to keep cool or warm I can't remember, became aware of a small animal snuffling along, unfazed by my presence. The sky gave some light, a moon perhaps, enough for me to identify the animal as a skunk. It came quite close and snuffled off into the brush.
It didn't bother me and I was very concerned not to bother it. So concerned I was afraid it would catch my tense vibe and think, better safe than sorry. But it turned its back peaceably, nothing sudden or threatening. It was just leaving, not cocking its artillery.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 1 Aug 15 at 21:02
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>>Armadillos are actually quite cute little critters although their digging can make a mess of your garden
Not unlike English Pointer puppies then :(
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34630592
1 lion, international outrage for many days, dentist bloke subject to threats and extreme harassment living in fear of his own life.
320 bears (200 in one day!) - party time, bring out the kids to shoot a bear!! "The hunters included a 16-year-old boy who said he fulfilled a dream when he killed an 80kg bear."
I love "The Wildlife Commission's advice on encountering black bears is to remain standing upright and speak to the bear in a calm, assertive voice while backing up slowly towards a secure area and leaving the bear a clear escape route".
I'll re-watch the Jungle Book for tips on assertive bear-speak, just in case :-)
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That advice only applies to a chap with floppy hair, an Oxbridge accent and a steely eyed stare. See HM Bateman for further details...
Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 25 Oct 15 at 16:19
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>> 1 lion, international outrage for many days
>> 320 bears (200 in one day!) -
A quick Google confirms my suspicion that (a) the African Lion is, or is becoming, endangered and (b) the Black Bear and Grizzly Bear are not with population stable or increasing.
Also was it not suggested that Cecil died a lingering death with an arrow rather than being shot?
Personally I'm not in favour of any form of hunting but taking threatened species is really troubling.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 25 Oct 15 at 09:28
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If people in Berkshire were being shot at a rate of 200 a day I'd feel somewhat threatened :-)
I think a cuddly wuddly lion being killed by a nasty human just caught the imagination of lots of people, in a Bambi sort of way. If people were absolutely honest, I doubt whether many really cared much about the fate of a lion in a far off place but it really doesn't do to not be seen to be following the Facebook trends.
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I don't believe that lions are a threatened species. What's more they are unpleasant animals with gangsterish habits. Handsome in a way, but to be avoided at all costs.
Expensive hunting safaris are despicable though. Verging on 'shooting fish in a barrel'.
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>> I don't believe that lions are a threatened species.
The official line seems to be 'vulnerable' with numbers declining due to loss of habitat.
www.wwf.org.uk/wildlife/lions/
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"About 30 - 35000 remain in the wild today".
That's more than enough, surely? As AC says, they are damn dangerous things.
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>> "About 30 - 35000 remain in the wild today".
>>
>> That's more than enough, surely?
35,000 and stable maybe but 35,000 and declining is another story altogether.
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Maybe helped by the fact that the Lion had been given a human name I still don't get why the Zimbabweans gave it an English name, especially that of an arch imperialist...
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Cecil was my father's first given name. His second name was even worse. He always used initials, and his intimates called him by his childhood nickname, or the name 'Jack' which he acquired mysteriously in Ceylon.
Anyway that's why I felt a bit sorry for Cecil the lion. It's a very long time since I was Oedipal enough to want to waste the old boy. I was surprisingly upset when he died.
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His old aunts used to call him 'Cess' sometimes. I could tell it set his teeth on edge but he was kind to his old aunts. He answered the phone in the office by barking his one-syllable surname.
Don't remember anyone ever calling him 'Sissl' though.
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>> He answered the phone in the office by barking his one-syllable surname.
A common practice until the seventies I think. Certainly remember an early office head, Senior Principal I think, who did so. Another single syllable name - Mott.
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Cecil The Lion - Dog
