***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 5 *****
If anybody is still interested, this is from the Washington Post and is quite a good assessment of the situation and how it got here..
www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/07/05/as-greece-votes-heres-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-nations-crisis/
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 16 Jul 15 at 02:04
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Obviously nobody is interested in reading the assessment, however a solution may now be on the table:)
Greece’s political elite have secretly been looking for an ‘all-out buyer’ for some time and sources close to Papandreou say that it was only at the eleventh hour that Luxembourg outbid the European Council itself, which had been eyeing up the sun-drenched country as new office space.
As a fresh wave of b***** riots broke out in every town, village and city, Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker said: “We have been wanting to move to a bigger place for some time. It needs a lot of work doing to it but it’s got bags of charm and, of course, right now it’s a bargain. Who knows – once we have increased its value, we might even sell it on to Monaco or someone like that.â€
It’s understood that Greeks will be offered immediate Luxembourgian citizenship.
“Anyone who refuses,†Juncker told a rowdy press conference this morning, “will be forcefully repatriated.â€
“But how can they be repatriated if they no longer have a country,†asked Sky News’ Adam Boulton.
“You better ask the Greeks,†Juncker replied, “They’re the philosophers.â€
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I'd have to say that despite all the criticism, and the fact that he's on a knife edge, Alexis Tsipras has played this pretty well so far.
His creditors were not prepared to negotiate. So he said no to the deals until they negotiated a bit.
They then tried to push it, and he's gone to a referendum, however flawed, that says he can walk away from a deal.
Tsipras plays the line that he wants to be in the EU, in the Euro, but points at the referendum and shrugs his shoulders about how this can be achieved dumping the responsibility on his creditors, at least in the eyes of the popular media.
Now, France thinks its important to give Greece space, Germany is prepared to listen to new proposals etc. etc.
Quite clearly Tsipras is no fool and I for one would not play poker with him.
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I can see two possible end-games:
1. Greece leave Euro, Eurozone then implodes a bit more.
2. The Eurozone does the best it can to save face by having multi-lateral debt relief and becomes a more cohesive entity and real progress is made to cut corruption and rotten governance in the zone.
2 smacks of fantasy, however, and Mutti would need huge balls to sell it to Germany.
(3. of course is a continuing fudge with never-repayable debt mountains - but that's not really an endgame, more just a stalling mechanism until the next bunch of ineffectual politicos are voted in)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 7 Jul 15 at 16:39
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>> I can see two possible end-games:
>>
>> 1. Greece leave Euro, Eurozone then implodes a bit more.
>>
1a. Eurozone stabilises a bit more not having to carry a banana republic.
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No doubt I am thick, but I am left puzzled by all this stuff. Ever since I remember we have been being promised pain and suffering as a result of our economy or the world economy being badly managed, sabotaged, defeated by their enemies, etc etc.
I can't say I've ever felt any of this pain and suffering myself. Am I insensitive or what? Sure, things change all the time in big and small ways, sometimes in unforeseen ways, and life is full of inconveniences. But 'pain'? 'Suffering'? There was much more of that when I was small, and it's been diminishing ever since. How perfect do things have to get before this whining stops?
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You are of a different generation AC, the youngsters are of the me first, I want it now generation. Poverty is not having the latest gadget or trainers.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 7 Jul 15 at 17:08
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>> I can't say I've ever felt any of this pain and suffering myself. Am I
>> insensitive or what? Sure, things change all the time in big and small ways, sometimes
>> in unforeseen ways, and life is full of inconveniences. But 'pain'? 'Suffering'? There was
You're a pensioner AC. You and your cohort vote and tend to cast their ballot for the Conservatives. Consequently the portion of the welfare budget committed to your age groups, and it's more than half, is protected from cuts by Cameron's govt.
The disabled have a fair amount of leverage too though not enough to stop DLA being replaced by the more restrictive PIP. The removal of the Independent Living Fund will see more people trapped in their homes instead of contributing to society.
The real pain has though, so far, been dumped largely on those who are not in employment. That's likely to continue with the 'benefit cap' coming down to £20k out of London. The losers will be children with misfortune to be in large families.
Osborne's summer budget is likely to see the suffering extended to those on in work benefits. People in 'hard working families' but with the misfortune to be on low pay will be getting stung.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 7 Jul 15 at 18:15
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>>>>
>> The real pain has though, so far, been dumped largely on those who are not
>> in employment. That's likely to continue with the 'benefit cap' coming down to £20k out
>> of London. The losers will be children with misfortune to be in large families.
>>
>> >>
Or you could say the children of people too idle to find a job who have been banging out large families because the welfare state had become a bit of a soft touch.
No doubt that's just a figment of the Daily Mail's imagination though, and those of us who live in areas where we've been seeing it all our lives are simply deluded. There aren't nearly as many people genuinely down on their luck as some would like to believe.
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>> No doubt that's just a figment of the Daily Mail's imagination though,
Their existence is not a myth. Their prevalence is.
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>>
>> >>
>> Their existence is not a myth. Their prevalence is.
>>
Funny how the countless economic migrants who've come here don't seem to have trouble finding jobs, yet many of our own spend half their lives on benefits.
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I'm not an idiot Bromptonaut. Of course I know there are poor people, and the neglected deprived children of unfortunate or gormless parents. People have too many children encouraged by the benefits system.
It's no joke needing a job and having to find one willy-nilly in a sharp-toothed buyer's market. But that was always a feature of capitalism. When people want jobs to feed their children they can be paid less, geddit? And men with skills can be paid at labourers' rates.
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the same the whole world over
Ain't it all a blooming shame?
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 7 Jul 15 at 18:33
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>>The real pain has though, so far, been dumped largely on those who are not in employment.
Surely being out of work is supposed to be unpleasant. Not unlivable, and not desperate, but unpleasant.
That's one of the incentives to work.
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I have no issue with someone disabled being looked after.
I have no issue with someone unemployed being looked after....
I have problems with a nearish neighbour who plays the system - 17 years unemployed & employed for maybe 6 months - courses, odd job but unwilling to earn a living.
Mummy & Daddy own the house, Council pay M&D rent money and she collects the dole - M&D then buy her cars every few years and pay the bills............nobody works
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>> Mummy & Daddy own the house, Council pay M&D rent money and she collects the
>> dole - M&D then buy her cars every few years and pay the bills............nobody works
In England at any rate that shouldn't happen, if M&D really own the property the letting would be treated as as 'sham' tenancy. OTOH if trusts were in place....
Such cases should be addressed by firm and focussed action. They're not representative of what I'm seeing at CAB every week.
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>>They're not representative of what I'm seeing at CAB every week.
Surely you understand that CAB visitors are only representative of a subset?
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>> Surely you understand that CAB visitors are only representative of a subset?
I'm not sure what you mean. Are they more or less likely to be 'average' than egregious(?) examples selected by (a) forummers or (b) the media.
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>>>> Surely you understand that CAB visitors are only representative of a subset?
>
>I'm not sure what you mean.
Its not difficult; the group of people that you meet are not representative of the population as a whole, of benefits receivers as a whole, of council house tenants as a whole etc. etc.
Drawing a conclusion from the subset that you do see and making any assumption about the wider group is both wrong and silly.
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>> Its not difficult; the group of people that you meet are not representative of the
>> population as a whole, of benefits receivers as a whole, of council house tenants as
>> a whole etc. etc.
Sure, more work would be needed to prove they are representative (in sense of academic study etc). But I don't understand why you apparently think their experiences are not representative of those finding themselves in difficulty.
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>>But I don't understand why you apparently think their experiences are not representative of those finding themselves in difficulty.
Oh dear God;
How many people in the UK are supported by welfare?
How many people in the UK are abusing that welfare system?
How many people in the UK on welfare "find themselves in difficulty" ?
How many people in the UK consult with the CAB?
How many of those do you see?
And on what level do you put forward those that you see as representative of any larger group?
And it is simply too tedious to continue further on something so obvious, so work it out or don't.
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So people consulting CAB are not even a straw in the wind as to problems people face in their actual real lives?
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"representative". Look it up.
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>> "representative". Look it up.
I did. (3) a typical example.
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>>
>> Drawing a conclusion from the subset that you do see and making any assumption about
>> the wider group is both wrong and silly.
>>
If you run a soup kitchen serving queues of people in shabby clothes, it's a reasonable conclusion to draw that there are a lot of hungry people.
Ah, but they are only the sub-set of hungry people who use soup kitchens, and they are only a subset of everyone else who don't need soup kitchens.
Therefore the sample is skewed, you can't draw any conclusions about the existence of hunger, therefore there is no justification for providing soup kitchens on the basis of such inaccurate information.
(TIC mode, heavy irony, sarcasm, etc :) )
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>>(TIC mode, heavy irony, sarcasm, etc :) )
And wrong.
>>If you run a soup kitchen serving queues of people in shabby clothes, it's a reasonable conclusion to draw that there are a lot of hungry people.
Of course it is, because you are drawing a simple conclusion about the people you have seen. i.e. There are a lot.
How about if you then drew a conclusion that said because 80% of the people you see eat broccoli soup therefore 80% of the population eats broccoli soup?
>>Therefore the sample is skewed, you can't draw any conclusions about the existence of hunger,
To be honest I'm a little surprised that you don't understand this. However, of course you can draw a conclusion about the existence of hunger, but you cannot draw a conclusion about the prevalence of hunger in the wider population with this data alone.
Still feeling so ironic, sarcastic with your tongue in your cheek?
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>>
>> To be honest I'm a little surprised that you don't understand this.
>> Still feeling so ironic, sarcastic with your tongue in your cheek?
>>
Yes. Civilised countries don't need soup kitchens. If you find they are necessary even in Britain then it shows something wrong somewhere. Probably that there are hungry people who can't afford food.
But more research would be needed over a wider sample before one need feel moved to do anything about it.
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Bless, Cliff, and you normally do so well on difficult stuff.
Never mind.
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>> How about if you then drew a conclusion that said because 80% of the people
>> you see eat broccoli soup therefore 80% of the population eats broccoli soup?
>
That's just ridiculous. Broccoli soup is horrible.
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I think broccoli is horrible whatever you do with it. Nasty tasting stuff.
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>> I think broccoli is horrible whatever you do with it. Nasty tasting stuff.
Actually its only ever edible as soup, and when mixed with Stilton, is bordering on pleasantly palatable
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Broccoli and stilton soup is delicious
Your palate is so unsophisticated down south.
Pat
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>> Broccoli and stilton soup is delicious
>>
which is what i said
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 8 Jul 15 at 16:23
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>>which is what i said<<
Try telling it to the Chef like that!
Pat
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>> >>which is what i said<<
>>
>> Try telling it to the Chef like that!
>>
>> Pat
Entirely depends on how well he does it. Anyway, you never complain to any chef, ever.
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Don't you believe it Sunshine!
I can't cook but when I pay someone else to do it I expect it to be done well, and am happy to ask to speak to the Chef if it isn't.
Ian has been known to retire outside for a ciggy while I deal with it........and he doesn't smoke:)
Pat
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Most broccoli served is overcooked. Microwaving is not generally even enough, so steamed is best.
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>> Most broccoli served is overcooked.
I hope you are basing that on a representative sample.
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It seems men don't like broccoli much. They are more given to food fads than women generally speaking.
I don't mind it too much myself, I can eat it. But I can't remember an occasion when I thought it was really nice. Herself is a brisk cook but often puts it in soup.
On a related note, a cousin-in-law used to fry grated carrot and eat it for breakfast, claiming it was 'delicious'. Just the sight and scent of it at breakfast time used to make me want to throw up.
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hope you are basing that on a representative sample.
I'd be lying if I quantified the statement, but it is certainly rare for anyone else's cooking of broccoli to not be overcooked, even slightly. Most is cooked to a stage of the stalk being quite soft, and the target should be just a slight softening. You get to learn from sticking a knife in the stalk as it cooks and then one just repeats what works.
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>> >> Mummy & Daddy own the house, Council pay M&D rent money and she collects
>> the dole - M&D then buy her cars every few years and pay the bills............nobody works
>>
>> In England at any rate that shouldn't happen, if M&D really own the property the
>> letting would be treated as as 'sham' tenancy. OTOH if trusts were in place....
>>
>> Such cases should be addressed by firm and focussed action. They're not representative of what I'm seeing at CAB every week.
>>
These people don't need any advice. They've got the system sussed.
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>>You're a pensioner AC. You and your cohort vote and tend to cast their ballot for the
>>Conservatives. Consequently the portion of the welfare budget committed to your age
>>groups, and it's more than half, is protected from cuts by Cameron's govt.
Here is a report on the growth of retirement incomes since 1977.
www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_284355.pdf
Try as I might I can see no correlation between change (or lack of) and political party in power.
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>> You're a pensioner AC. You and your cohort vote and tend to cast their ballot for the
>> Conservatives.
I've only ever cast one Tory vote that I can remember, and that was a tactical vote in a local election whose memory still annoys me...
Small c is just commonsense though. You have to know what it means. Many don't.
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"Quite clearly Tsipras is no fool and I for one would not play poker with him."
Looks like he has just thrown in his hand.
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>> Looks like he has just thrown in his hand.
Yeah, no choice - he applied for a 60 billion € Wonga loan yesterday, and they turned him down.
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Tsipras slipped up with the referendum. He called it certain that he could lose so he could safely resign and leave others to deal with what he had realised was an impossible situation. When he won he was left with no option but to back down or to go down in history as the man who bankrupted Greece.
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Clearly that Greek finance bloke who went was a dispensable patsy for Tsipras to use to test the water. He probably knew it too, and played up to his "tough cop" role. But those holding the purse strings were having none of it, he had to go to appease them and to allow Tsipras to backtrack without losing too much face.
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Nothing like having no banks open for nearly two weeks to make you realise :
1. the economy is close to collapse.
2. it's YOUR fault.
3. The rioters will hang you if Greece collapses into chaos.
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"... allow Tsipras to backtrack without losing too much face."
Small chance of that, I reckon.
The Telegraph reports that the deal Tsipras now wants to accept is "more severe than the proposal rejected by Sunday's referendum."
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It's good that some form of agreement is on it's way but I am getting a bit pee'd off with hearing how the Greek people have been humiliated. I said in an earlier thread that I have sympathy for the average man on the street, which remains true, but as a country Greece have in reality been let off a very large hook - the country has been pretty much bankrupt for years and has been helped out many times (at least three major bailouts I think), and they've reneged on measures they've previously promised to undertake. Europe needed to give Greece a clear message that things have to change.
I suppose those moaning about humiliation expected Europe to write off massive chunks of debt but at the end of the day Greece owes billions of Euros to almost all European countries so in my view a bit of gratitude wouldn't go amiss.
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This story can just go on running for ever.
No one wants a solution - the Greeks obviously because they can't pay, the Germans because they have built their post-war reputation on sound money, so their electorate won't let them back down.
So the obvious solution is no solution - the Greeks pretend they want to pay, the Germans pretend they will get paid, but meanwhile the Greeks just carry on, half in, half out, probably introducing back-door drachma or bartering with cigarettes.
I feel sorry for the Finns and Latvians - they played by what they thought were real rules, but all along it was just a pretence cooked up by the big players for prestige and the southern states because their systems are corrupt.
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There is a degree of annoyance and retribution going on here. The greek gov got elected on arrogant and inflammatory and undeliverable promises. They then prevaricated, lied to and insulted their creditors, tried playing them off against the Russkies, then went for a snap referendum and tricked and fooled their electorate.
No wonder those who are owed billions want to give them a severe and bloooody kicking.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 10:54
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It seems to many, that it is the lending banks who have been (temporarily) bailed out, not the Greek people.
I suspect this is not the end of the story.
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I think you're right, today just paves the way for the next stage.
Governments have to agree too, before it can really start to move along.
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>> There is a degree of annoyance and retribution going on here. The greek gov got
>> elected on arrogant and inflammatory and undeliverable promises. They then prevaricated, lied to and insulted
>> their creditors, tried playing them off against the Russkies, then went for a snap referendum
>> and tricked and fooled their electorate.
>>
>> No wonder those who are owed billions want to give them a severe and bloooody
>> kicking.
>>
That is probably the human reaction, but consider how irresponsible the lenders have been.
They have lent a serious chunk of money to a country they well knew was (a) a poor credit risk and (b) was unlikely to be able to repay the money.
They relied on a guarantor - the E.U. and it was this on which they totally relied.
That, from my experience of a considerable number of years in the finance/leasing business, is a poor reason to advance credit to anyone. A guarantor can make a modestly marginal deal viable, but to rely entirely on a guarantor is madness.
Guarantors are notorious for their reluctance to pay up in the event the borrower cannot or will not stump up.
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Greece would have been better off defaulting in 2010. But the rest of the Eurozone could not let that happen because European banks would have failed. So some debt was written off and the banks paid off funds with from the Troika. Now Greece owed a lot of money to powerful European institutions.
The Greeks either didn't or couldn't sort out the mess they were still in and either would default or need a bailout. There was still too much risk associated with a default for the rest of the Eurozone... so another bailout.
Greece does need to sort out the corruption and everything else that's wrong. But they were only ever bailed out for the benefit of the Eurozone. And now the money is owed to the people who can make the Greek economy plummet and bankrupt them if they don't agree to severe terms.
Well Greece does not want to leave to Euro so had no choice. If they'd gone bankrupt in 2010 they'd have had no choice either.
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The current deal only delays matters, I've not seen anything that remotely deals with the causes of the debt.
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In other words. you reap what you sow?
I met John Redwood many years ago when he was something in the EU (mid 90s maybe?), he gave a very informal talk to a small group of us. The gist of it was that if a country wants something passed at the EU then there was sensible discussion and debate with the larger more powerful nations, but to win votes from the smaller companies (and Greece was mentioned explicitly) then you always had to support whatever their latest money-pit job-creation project was - basically votes for cash. So for years they have been pretty dependent on EU handouts, if not bailouts.
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Is this an old joke? It came from a greek friend.
How the Greek economy works:
It is a slow day in a little Greek Village. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.
On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the village. He stops at the local hotel and lays a 100 euro note on the desk. He tells the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.
The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the 100 euro note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.
The butcher takes the 100 euro note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.
The pig farmer takes the 100 euro note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.
The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the 100 euro note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the taverna.
The tavern owner slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.
The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the 100 note.
The hotel proprietor then places the 100 euro note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.
At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the 100 euro note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.
No one produced anything. No one earned anything.
However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.
And THAT is how the bailout package works.
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>>
>> And THAT is how the bailout package works.
>>
>>
It's very clever, but it isn't. The visitor has facilitated nothing that they couldn't all have done for themselves - they merely lacked an agreed medium of exchange. A seashell or a packet of cigarettes would have worked just as well.
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>> I met John Redwood many years ago when he was something in the EU (mid
>> 90s maybe?), he gave a very informal talk to a small group of us. The
>> gist of it was that if a country wants something passed at the EU
88
Do you really think Redwood is a reliable witness on the EU?
He has a long history of vehement opposition to membership and was the one candidate to stand against John Major in the 1995 leadership election. His manifesto was heavily Eurosceptic and he is now.
Admittedly he's one of those politicians who just doesn't come over well in TV politics but when seeing him I can never dismiss the cartoonists image of him as Mr Spock.
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>>
>> Do you really think Redwood is a reliable witness on the EU?
>>
>> He has a long history of vehement opposition to membership and was the one candidate
>> to stand against John Major in the 1995 leadership election. His manifesto was heavily Eurosceptic
>> and he is now.
>>
>> Admittedly he's one of those politicians who just doesn't come over well in TV politics
>> but when seeing him I can never dismiss the cartoonists image of him as Mr
>> Spock.
>>
>
I recall John Redwood as an utterly incompetent politician..Very clever but useless.
Anyone who saw the video of him at a Welsh conference trying to sing the Welsh National Anthem in Welsh.. would agree. He was Secretary of State for Wales so learning it should have been one of his priorities.. tinyurl.com/ntsu336
He reminds of the Telegraph writers who always keep forecasting the downfall of the Euro/EC.. They have been doing it for decades. (little boys crying wolf .. springs to mind)..
In the real world, things can last broken for decades and still not fall apart.
So I agree with Bromps (!!!!)... Redwood is amusing. clever and on this subject not worth reading.
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>> I've not seen anything that remotely deals with the
>> causes of the debt.
>>
As I said, no one has any intention of dealing with the causes. It suits everyone to go on pretending.
Merkel can't say to the Germans, Sorry, I have lost all your money.
Tspiras can't say to the Greeks, The game is up, we can't afford a left-wing government.
The Eu can't admit to Italy. Portugal and Spain, We can bail out Greece but not you.
The EU can't admit to Finland and the Baltics, Sorry, we conned you.
So they will fudge things and carry on as before.
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.
>>
>> So they will fudge things and carry on as before.
>>
Yes.. right. But this time the Greeks will actually have to keep their promises or they won't have a banking system..
Serves them right.. Lying toads..
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They won't be the only ones lying in the E.U.Don't generelise.
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I am not generalising. Successive Greek Governments have promised to sell assets in exchange for bailouts. They lied.. they did not try to sell them.
They promised to clamp down on tax evasion. They did not.
The Greeks has a reputation when Homer wrote "timeo danos, donas ferentes" - I fear the Greeks bearing gifts.. They have lived up to that reputation in the past 15 years...
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>> Yes.. right. But this time the Greeks will actually have to keep their promises or
>> they won't have a banking system..
>>
>> Serves them right.. Lying toads..
>>
Greeks = Toads
French = Frogs
British = Newts (as in "pi**ed as a " )
Way too many amphibians in the EU.
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>>No one has any intention of dealing with the causes......
>>...
>>...So they will fudge things and carry on as before.
Pretty good summary.
Mind you, something happened behind the scenes a few days ago, and I have no idea what.
Perhaps a promise for the future; "Agree now, let the crisis pass, and we'll wipe off x% in a year". Or similar.
But something happened, or was said, and not generally known and/or reported.
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>> Mind you, something happened behind the scenes a few days ago, and I have no
>> idea what.
>>
>> Perhaps a promise for the future; "Agree now, let the crisis pass, and we'll wipe
>> off x% in a year". Or similar.
>>
>> But something happened, or was said, and not generally known and/or reported.
.*******
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>>.*****
Care to explain further?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 16:36
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Damn swear filter!
More like, "Listen here Stavros, we are peed off with your antics, double dealing and insults, we are going to bounce you and your tin pot country out of the euro and the EU right now"
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>>"Listen here Stavros....
Perhaps, but I rather think a carrot was offered, not a stick.
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>> >>"Listen here Stavros....
>>
>> Perhaps, but I rather think a carrot was offered, not a stick.
I'm not sure, the germans were pretty hostile, and Stavros has suddenly become very humble.
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True, but he seems a bit reckless and suicidal to cope with threats too well. He also seemed increasingly likely to lose his job.
All of a sudden the EU seems happy to work with him, he seems to be going along with stuff, and there's no sniping or back biting.
Not even the EU making political capital.
Although if I was them I am not sure I would trust him to keep his mouth shut unless he'd been promised something.
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Simple.
"IIf you don't want our terms, find the money elsewhere. We'll want back ALL the money propping up your banks.. so you'll have to refinance that - immediately..
And of course, if you don't the banks will go bust and it will be your fault...
( and of course if the banks went so does the Greek economy and there would be riots and looting.. And who would the rioters come for? Tsipras.. End like Mussolini and his mistress- strung up from a street lamp.)
And rightly so. The man has done ALL the wrong things.
Insulted his creditors - in public.
Negotiated a new deal with the creditors who believe he was acting in good faith - and then recommended a No vote in the Referendum.
Then having persuaded his countrymen to vote NO, he shows it's all a waste of time as he capitulates with worse terms.
Man is a student politician with zero nous or sense. Could not negotiate.. made himself look a fool to his followers AND his creditors. That takes some doing - all in 1 week.
Reminds me of another politician who promises to resign, resigns and unresigns in 36 hours.. zero credibility in the real world when the going gets tough.
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Top and bottom of it is that the can has been kicked down the road again.
Remember the old chestnut, when the bank manager lends you £1,000 he has you by the nuts; when he lends you £1m the reverse applies.
As you say I think somebody "sold" Tsipras on the rollover - what did they give him?
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The sooner we quit the 'king EU the better.
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>The sooner we quit the 'king EU the better.
Other than a fear of foreign, do you have any understanding of what would change or any good reason for that desire?
Because it may be the right thing to do, or it may not, but I bet you don't understand why.
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>>Other than a fear of foreign, do you have any understanding of what would change or any good reason for that desire?
Wanting out of the EU has got zilch to do with a xenophobia [except when it comes to the Welsh]
I listen to the whispering grass and it tells me that Great Britain would prosper after exiting the EU con.
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>>I listen to the whispering grass
That is exactly it. You listen to whispers that emotionally appeal to you, and take them as said with no real understanding of the issues.
Thus, your views are a reflection of those that you listen to with no added value or understanding.
Worthless except as a measure of occurring emotions.
Who is it that forever makes comment about sheeples?
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>> >>I listen to the whispering grass
>>
>> That is exactly it. You listen to whispers that emotionally appeal to you, and take
>> them as said with no real understanding of the issues.
>>
>> Thus, your views are a reflection of those that you listen to with no added
>> value or understanding.
>>
>> Worthless except as a measure of occurring emotions.
>>
>> Who is it that forever makes comment about sheeples?
You're surprising me now because I'd never have thought you were an ignorant sod, before now. You have absolutely no idea guvnor. I listen to company CEO's, 'captains of industry', financial experts on R 4/5 LBC/ world service etc. etc. I read the Torygraph, Guardian, Independent, Spectator, Reuters, N/Statesman. AND the DM ... so faff orf and pour yerself another G&T.
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What would you think was meant by "whispering grass"?
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>>What would you think was meant by "whispering grass"?
dunno tbh, the airwaves I spose.
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Well for goodness sakes Doug and you wrote it, so what chance did I have?
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>>Well for goodness sakes Doug and you wrote it, so what chance did I have?
I think we would actually get on okay really ya know Martin. Sorry if I flew off the handle a bit, but I haven't had a decent nights sleep since I got this pup 2 months ago!
Orf to bed now - got to get up early again :( ... He's a great dog though is Cody.
Pics were taken in the winter (April!!) hence the attire:
m.flickr.com/#/photos/43576259@N04/18136959264/
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>>I think we would actually get on okay really ya know Martin.
'Spect you're right Doug, 'spect you're right.
p.s. weren't you in Emmerdale?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 23:46
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>>p.s. weren't you in Emmerdale?
No, but I've been into Emma Peel [in my dreams!]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Peel#/media/File:Emma-Peel_Avengers-Intro.jpg
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snipquote for lazy person
>> m.flickr.com/#/photos/43576259@N04/18136959264/
>>
Lovely dog..
and I like the piglets as well :-)
You aren't Jeremy Corbyn by any chance? :-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 15 Jul 15 at 01:55
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>> You aren't Jeremy Corbyn by any chance? :-)
A leftie!!!!!! ... that's not me in the pic mad f, it's my bin man. I'm the clown behind the camera :o)
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>> >>What would you think was meant by "whispering grass"?
>> dunno tbh, the airwaves I spose.
Maybe referring to someone Welsh* "singing" a song you like (Windsor Davies)? From it Ain't Half Hot Mum:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=10dmK7O-KSY
I of course refer to the Welsh one and not the one who can actually sing.
* Okay he wasn't born in Wales :-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 23:00
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Dang, I thought Windsor Davies had died some years back but he's still kicking at 84 apparently.
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Seen it before, but what fun rtj.
It's a terrific song.
We had a cat like Windsor Davis running the CCF at my last school, retired, alcoholic Irish Guards CSM or even RSM with the same sort of moustache.
We had a mutiny once and he got his old mates in to punish us with hours of ferocious drill. It was a day off for them with extra money and beer, so they loved it and were very nice to us... heh heh.
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"It's a terrific song."
First recorded by the Ink Spots I believe.
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>>
>> "It's a terrific song."
>>
>> First recorded by the Ink Spots I believe.
>>
"Whispering Grass (Don't Tell The Trees)" is a popular song written by Fred Fisher and his daughter Doris Fisher. The song was first recorded by Erskine Hawkins & His Orchestra in 1940. The Ink Spots featuring Bill Kenny also recorded it the same year. A live instrumental version was played and recorded by Johnny Hodges with Duke Ellington and his orchestra in the Cristal Ballroom, Fargo, North Dakota, also in 1940.
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>> >> "It's a terrific song."
What I should have said was terrific tune. The lyric is a bit wishy-washy to me, and ultimately lapses into meaninglessness.
Mind you outrageously meaningless lyrics weren't unknown at the time. But the best ones were well-turned, witty or moving as the case might be.
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>>Maybe referring to someone Welsh* "singing" a song you like (Windsor Davies)? From it Ain't Half Hot Mum:
Correct sir!
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>> You're surprising me now because I'd never have thought you were an ignorant sod, before
>> now. You have absolutely no idea guvnor. I listen to company CEO's, 'captains of industry',
>> financial experts on R 4/5 LBC/ world service etc. etc. I read the Torygraph, Guardian,
>> Independent, Spectator, Reuters, N/Statesman. AND the DM ... so faff orf and pour yerself another
>> G&T.
So with all that input you have only adopted what the Telegraph and the DM say?
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>> So with all that input you have only adopted what the Telegraph and the DM say?
I usually stay clear these 'ere debates, which can go on and on and on. Don't change anything though, does it.
My late friend Lauri Smith the leather craftsman and I used to have discussions about world events, sitting round/around his roaring inglenook fire up in his remote moorland cottage.
He was one wise dude was ole Lauri. He's bean dead for 17 years now, and all that hot air never changed a thing, and never will ... All good fun though :o)
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>>Don't change anything though, does it.
No, but I quite often learn stuff I didn't know. And hear perspectives I wouldn't otherwise hear.
And, as you say, often fun. Naff all point on discussing stuff for any length of time with people you agree with.
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Second best emotive sentence of the day?
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>> Who thinks we should be in this "club"
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11737286/EU-demands-Britain-joins-Greek-rescue-fund.html
Isn't this the same bloke who said we would be "forced" to take tens of thousands of the illegal migrants into the EU?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 13 Jul 15 at 19:52
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>> Who thinks we should be in this "club"
On the whole I think we're better off 'in'. I'm certainly not going to be persuaded otherwise by slanted accounts of an egregious incident publicised by the organ of non-dom billionaires who want 'out' for reasons of personal politics and/or finances.
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I gave Bromp a thumb, partly because I agree and partly because that's the best emotive sentence I've read today.
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I don't have much regard for the Barclay twins either, but we should be equally sceptical of all the other big business lobbying on the EU question. I am not persuaded at all by the CBI and various large companies who may just be thinking of the benefits of a virtually limitless supply of cheap labour to the UK.
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Roger obviously thinks it's right for a country which is basically bankrupt to raise pensions and wages and to continue to allow 75% of its citizens to retire before the age of 61 - funded by its creditors.
He should quit UKIP and join the Greens - they have similar sounding policies.. :-)
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>> Roger obviously thinks it's right for a country which is basically bankrupt to raise pensions
>> and wages and to continue to allow 75% of its citizens to retire before the
>> age of 61 - funded by its creditors.
I wish I your mind-reading powers.
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The Greeks were presented with an open moneypot when they joined the EU (on seriously fudged criteria, may I remind you) for purely political E.U. expansionist reasons.
Human nature being what it is they dived in and filled their boots
For the country to do this was utterly crazy, of course, but politicians (not just Greek ones) just love giving away other people's money to gain popularity and power.
However, come the crunch it has become pretty evident that rather let Greece exit the E.U, restore the devalued drachma and fight it's way back, the E.U. is so concerned to preserve the E.U. project, that the terms required from Greece are designed to frighten any other vulnerable country from daring to consider exit.
It's a stark warning to other E.U. zone nations as to who holds the whip hand.
The really puzzling thing is that despite all this, it is reported that Greeks want to remain in the Union and want to retain the Euro.
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>> The really puzzling thing is that despite all this, it is reported that Greeks want
>> to remain in the Union and want to retain the Euro.
The necessary corollary to that is that the debt should be largely forgiven.
Your comment on guarantors made me smile. I have heard at least one guarantor say he had no intention of paying as he would not have given the guarantee if he had thought the borrower wouldn't pay!
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>> Your comment on guarantors made me smile. I have heard at least one guarantor say
>> he had no intention of paying as he would not have given the guarantee if
>> he had thought the borrower wouldn't pay!
>>
Heard that many, many, times, also - "I didn't know I'd have to pay if the borrower could not", plus a thousand variations on the theme!
I've seen close family members hit by guarantees given on behalf of those in whose probity and capability they had trusted.
Never guarantee a person's financial obligations.
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So there are all these pundits slagging off the Germans.
It'd have been a different tune completely if it was UK who was owed €56bn.
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>> So there are all these pundits slagging off the Germans.
>>
>> It'd have been a different tune completely if it was UK who was owed €56bn.
>>
The UK would never have let it get that far.
Compromises and co-operation are often admirable ways to proceed, but sometimes decisive action is needed. Germany and other Eurozone countries failed to deal with the problem of Greece, and just kept kicking the can down the road.
The Greek crisis bought to a head the fundamental problem that there needs to be political union for the Euro to work most efficiently for all members. Since there is not the political will or democratic support to achieve this, the EZ countries are left in the worst of all worlds.
We are due another cyclic economic downturn soon. (*) Then watch the fireworks.
(*) Yes, Gordon Brown did NOT "abolish boom & bust"
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He got halfway there. He got rid of the boom part.
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>> So there are all these pundits slagging off the Germans.
>>
The Germans have just discovered they are meant to collect the money, the Greeks have just discovered they are meant to pay it.
Both will shortly discover that, like Reparations after 1919, neither is possible.
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>> What a picture! .. www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-who-will-trust-germany-after-this-asks-paul-krugman-10384402.html
Never trust anything written by a noble prize winner, after all the nobel prize was financed by the man who invented dynamite.
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>>Never trust anything written by a noble prize winner, after all the nobel prize was financed by the man who invented dynamite.
Never trust anyone who 'wears' a beard - especially if he's a flipping foreigner.
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Alfred Noble did not invent nitro-glycerine, he discovered that by adding an absorbent media (kieselguhr) he could greatly increase the safety of it.
Before the invention of dynamite, nitro-glycerine was used in a few applications, but it was an incredibly dangerous substance to handle. It is a very shock sensitive material, look at it funny and it might go bang.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33531
Now the IMF has rejoined the fray criticising the agreement and the EU, and saying the deal is impossible to achieve.
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Nobel
Spellllling was nvr mi strongpoint...
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Wed 15 Jul 15 at 14:15
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>>Spellllling was nvr mi strongpoint...
I cud give yew a phew lesons their if yoo want Sp ... lemme no layder on, like.
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>> I don't know, but he just might be smart enough
>> He might yet pull this off.
Maybe they will vote it through, get a few billion Euros extra as a loan... and then tell the Troika to stick it. I doubt if this is even close to being over.
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Channel 4's Paul Mason warns that so long as Germany maintains its current position on the Greek bailout then Greece will exit the Euro eventually - the only question is when.
youtu.be/zJtG_fE-TYw?list=PLXjqQf1xYLQ47IJ7OIRD2uP7cbhhjBU7B
Its only a few minutes running time. Make your own mind up. I find it very persuasive.
Last edited by: Londoner on Wed 15 Jul 15 at 17:04
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That's about the size of it I think. Zugzwang for the Germans.
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Still more on Greece... a solution - sherlock47
