| Non-motoring > Waterloo revisionism | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: WillDeBeest | Replies: 6 |
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Wed 24 Jun 15 09:31
Waterloo revisionism - WillDeBeest
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With last week's anniversary there's been much talk of Napoleon, and not all of it of the aggressive, imperialist ogre we were brought up with. Andrew Roberts here: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05yxzlj and here: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05zzlb4 and Martin Kettle here www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/17/napoleon-dream-died-waterloo-200th-anniversary-triumph-reaction present a rather different view of the man and his political contribution to France and Europe. Kettle argues that the winner at Waterloo was not freedom but imperialism itself, the feudal monarchies of old Europe finally crushing the egalitarian aims of the Revolution. Britain did very nicely out of this, of course; with no opposition left to detain us in Europe, we were free to spend the rest of the 19th century colonizing the world. Meanwhile the rest of Europe blundered on with its old quasi-feudal model, whose internal rivalries eventually boiled up into the wars of the 20th century. It's an intriguing contrary point of view. I had a look on the Telegraph site yesterday and couldn't find much beyond flag-waving, but I'm sure there must be other shades of opinion out there. Beestling Major was in France on the anniversary and says it hardly got a mention; perhaps Mike can give us the view from the French countryside. |
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Wed 24 Jun 15 09:59
Waterloo revisionism - CGNorwich
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| The French Revolution and the Napoleonic wars are little understood in the UK. Poorly taught and overshadowed byt the world wars but vital to any understanding of modern European history. Kettle's view has a lot in its favour but it is a very complex subject. The major fear in the ruling classes of England was certainly that of the revolution spreading with consequences similar to those in France. |
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Wed 24 Jun 15 10:21
Waterloo revisionism - Cliff Pope
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Napolean and subsequent Buonopartists have always liked to portray themselves as the true heirs to the Revolution, but were they really so different in the end from the regime they overthrew? They created a new aristocracy, which ever since has co-existed with the remnants of the old. Perhaps rather like in Russia - they pretended they were workers and proletarians, but actually Stalin and the soviets were just new czars wearing PC hats. Napolean conquered a large part of mainland Europe, and imposed his friends and relations as rulers. Isn't that a bit imperialistic? Britain on the other hand went to great pains to establish the rights of smaller countries like Belgium, even to the extent of going to war when the "scrap of paper" was violated in 1914. |
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Wed 24 Jun 15 11:56
Waterloo revisionism - Zero
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I'm sure Roger hates him, he is in a way, the father of the EU. |
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Wed 24 Jun 15 14:00
Waterloo revisionism - Observer
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"Perhaps rather like in Russia - they pretended they were workers and proletarians, but actually Stalin and the soviets were just new czars wearing PC hats." What a distorted rehash of Russian history. The "proletariate" is a Marxist term to describe the manual workers, arguably the "real" wealth-creators in an industrial society, who are mostly powerless and are exploited by the capitalists/bourgeoisie. Under Communism the concept was redundant, since the Revolution was the freeing of the proletariate - or the victory of the proletariate. Thereafter everyone was supposed to contribute to the common good according to their abilities. Not everyone was a manual worker, or pretended to be. It's pretty difficult to equate Stalin and his circle with the former Tsars - except in one respect. He accumulated little, if any, personal wealth, though he did indulge himself up to a point. However, his increasing paranoia and desire to cling to power led him to viciously eliminate any who opposed him or who showed any signs of dissent, as the old régime had done. |
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Wed 24 Jun 15 14:03
Waterloo revisionism - No FM2R
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>>....were just new czars wearing PC hats." ?? www.123rf.com/photo_23483715_business-man-with-a-pc-monitor-head-and-idea-light-bulb-glowing-in-the-display.html |
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Wed 24 Jun 15 15:29
Waterloo revisionism - Mike Hannon
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I must have posted on here before about discovering that the French have never accepted Napoleon was defeated - the first experience was just after arriving here and witnessing a gathering of 'Les Amis de Bonaparte' in a village near here. One of the attractions was a giant model of the battlefield at Waterloo with hundreds of tiny soldiers. After studying it for a while I asked the attendant why the English and Prussians were not represented. He told me it wasn't important! Mind you, you should see how the French have re-written the history of World War Two. There was a 're-enactment' of Waterloo on French TV last week, not on the anniversary itself, with lots of horses, cannons and men in fancy uniforms parading about. And as far as I could see the English and Prussians were still missing. Anyway, at the risk of boring everyone, here's the bit I put on Facebook about what the French actually do on June 18... >>Witnessed a touching little ceremony yesterday afternoon. We were sitting with a coffee outside a bar on the main drag in St Junien watching the world go by, as you do, when we noticed groups of people approaching, all dressed up and carrying flags. They were heading for the war memorial across the road and I said 'surely they can't be commemorating Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo?' I am, of course, aware that the French never accepted he was finally beaten. Anyway, I said to the cafe proprietor 'Are they marking the Battle of Waterloo? I come from a place in England called Wellington!' He gave me a strange look and said 'Of course not - they are marking the 75th anniversary of the appeal by General de Gaulle (from London!) for the French to resist the German occupation after the surrender in June, 1940.' And when they heard the word 'Wellington' two old chaps in the bar laid into me on the subject of French history. Eeuuh-la-la! (as they say it round here). Eventually we all agreed that lessons can be learned from history, parted amicably and went to watch the ceremony. It was very good - this area was a stronghold of the much-feared Communist resistance (see 'Allo, Allo') and the Maire of St Junien still leads a communist council - the last in France, I believe, and - according to the Guinness Book of Records - the longest-lasting communist authority in the whole world (from around 1905!). He gave a stirring speech, giving a nice mention to 'our allies the British', assisted by schoolchildren and representatives from the Army, the Gendarmerie and - as ever - the local Fire Brigade. The colour party even included a bloke (wearing scruffy jeans) with a Union Flag. Who needed Waterloo eh?<< Last edited by: Mike Hannon on Wed 24 Jun 15 at 15:31
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