***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 5 *****
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Continuing discussion.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 7 Sep 15 at 10:42
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Ah, the machinations of a personality cult masquerading as a democratic organisation:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33190940
She makes perfect sense - Farage's supporters will automatically vote for Out even if he's not involved, but if he's the mouthpiece he will scare off plenty of fence-sitters that think he, and his party, are scumbags.
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>> Ah, the machinations of a personality cult masquerading as a democratic organisation:
>>
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
tinyurl.com/ofb4age
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Obama hates Britain and wants to see it swallowed up by both Continentals and Third Worlders. Of course he wants you in the EUSSR.
Leftists in general hate Britain because Britain is the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution, which gave rise to the modern, widespread middle class.
Leftists hate industrialism because they want to return to the world of feudalism--where "the masses" live in poverty and despair, ruled over by an anointed elite: themselves.
Um, I've just been clearing out my Yahoo! emails and found I'd posted ^that^ to myself in December 2012.
Good one though :o}
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Looks like we're still waiting for the anti-psychotics to kick in ;-)
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Here's another goody from about the same time: www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6cFUGIZd_w
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And ... there's more:
"Europe is... a monument to the vanity of individuals, a programme whose inevitable destiny is failure".
Margaret Thatcher 03/2002
"If you open that Pandora's box you never know what Trojan 'orses will jump out".
Ernest Bevin 1949
~mixing up his Greek legends to warn about the consequences of setting up the Council of Europe.
"It is not clear which impending catastrophe will be worse: the collapse of the euro or the transformation of the European Union into an economic equivalent of the former Soviet Union".
Wilhelm Hankel
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Just returned form holiday, and find the dog is still vomiting because of too much grass.
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You're on good form this morning Mr Zed sir, all that sun, sea, and sssssangria musta done you the world of good.
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11687009/Britain-staying-in-Europe-looks-more-and-more-absurd.html
I do wish you'd add some narrative when you post links like this.
OTOH the URL makes that article's (absurd?) message pretty clear.
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>> I do wish you'd add some narrative when you post links like this.
Whilst I agree, I'm pretty sure I could write it ahead of time.
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The author's name is enough for me. I had hoped he was dead, sort of.
Help! Help! The horrible Hefferlump!
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Heffer: the man who complained about men not wearing ties..
He's an old fart...
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>> Heffer: the man who complained about men not wearing ties..
>>
>> He's an old fart...
>>
Yes, that's true these days.
However it wasn't always the case. He used to be a young fart.
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UKIP attack video!
That should get you Europhiles mumbling into your lattes!
youtu.be/cBf1D9lvMrM
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Any idea what that music is? sounds like Russian or German.
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This Daily Telegraph article reckons we couldd be better off OUT!
(I am posting latish & haven't read all of it yet)
tinyurl.com/q5g8zab
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This link, for those who like to know, is to a 2012 article by Christopher Booker (yes I know some of you are dismissive of him).
While this is from a while back, the implications are possibly as (or more) relevant to 2015.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/9233096/Europe-alienates-us-all-as-foretold-40-years-ago.html
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When I come to think about it logically, I reckon the formulation of a European Union was a great idea really.
For Europe.
But leave us out of it thank you very much, so we can go it alone in our own way, as an independent trading nation, trading with all countries of the world - including Europe, just as Great Britain always has always done, successfully.
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>> When I come to think about it logically, I reckon the formulation of a European
>> Union was a great idea really.
>> For Europe.
>>
>> But leave us out of it thank you very much, so we can go it
>> alone in our own way, as an independent trading nation, trading with all countries of
>> the world - including Europe, just as Great Britain always has always done, successfully.
>>
The UK is NOT trading successfully.
We have a large and growing Balance Of Payments Deficit.. Our last surplus was 1982.
quarterly.demos.co.uk/article/issue-4/britains-balance-of-payments-disaster/
( But then UKIP supporters are not known for their knowledge of simple facts available everywhere at 5 seconds search..:-)
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An interesting article mad f. Here are a few more simple facts from that very article:
"The other major change has been on our net payments to other countries. These amounted to £10bn in 2003, and had grown to £14bn by 2008 but by 2013 they had reached £27bn. This total is made up of just over £12bn in net contributions to the EU, another £8bn in other government transfers, mostly aid payments, and a further £7bn made up of remittances sent abroad by immigrants to support their families in their countries of origin. The most volatile of these payments is the contributions we make to the EU, whose net value has more than doubled since 2009 – from £6bn to over £12bn, despite all the efforts made by the government to contain this expenditure. Furthermore, this sum is schedule to go on rising as EU expenditure increases and the UK rebate gets phased down. The Office for Budget Responsibility expects the total we pay to the EU to rise by about £10bn over the next four years".
The only country to really do well out of the EU con is (surprise, surprise) Germany, with a current account surplus of €206 billion in 2013, which equates to 7½% of gross domestic product (GDP). This represents a moderate year- on- year rise of €7½ billion.
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>> ( But then UKIP supporters are not known for their knowledge of simple facts available
>> everywhere at 5 seconds search..:-)
>>
Before you slag off UKIP too much, and remembering that I am a moderate Social Democrat, allow me to point out that UKIP policy that the UK should be freer to trade with the rest of the world and not be held back by having to negotiate as the EU in trade agreements(1)
UKIP do have a point, because our trade balance with the rest of the world than the EU.
Using ONS stats for 2013 for example
www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/bop/united-kingdom-balance-of-payments/2014/rpt-the-pink-book-2013--part-3--geographical-breakdown.html
Trade Balance
Europe -102.3
Rest of World +29.9
NET -72.4
(1) The pros & cons of which are worthy of their own debate.
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No figures of this sort are believable. They are consistently falsified.
Just a load of meaningless faff, this thread.
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>> No figures of this sort are believable. They are consistently falsified.
>>
>> Just a load of meaningless faff, this thread.
>>
Hardly worth your while posting that, was it?
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>>They are consistently falsified.
They are pretty much never falsified, I'd say "never", but who knows. They are usually pretty accurate.
Interpreting what they mean, and then predicting what will happen based upon them is the difficult bit.
>>Just a load of meaningless faff, this thread.
I can absolutely see how from your perspective that would seem to be the case. I can only offer my sympathy.
By comparison no doubt the style and colour of David Dimbleby's tie seems so much easier to discuss.
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>> By comparison no doubt the style and colour of David Dimbleby's tie seems so much easier to discuss.
It certainly is. Can't stand all this financial experting from the underbelly of capitalism. It's incredibly boring and pointless.
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>> It's incredibly boring and pointless.
>>
Rather like a lot of your waffle.
I remember in the early days, people likened Car4play to a pub with all its familiar characters.
There's a lot of truth in that.
I play the irritating guy who wants to talk at great length about a subject in which nobody else is interested.
You used to play the "Chill-out-and-have-another-beer" bloke who stood by the bar, but for some reason you seemed to have morphed recently into the "Naff-Snug-Bar-Philosopher" role.
Sorry to make an enemy of you, AC, but somebody has to tell you.
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I don't think you will make a enemy of A.C. Londoner.If we all had a drink in a pub there would be some serious talk and plenty of banter.
I like question time but Dimbleby is not my favourite.Maybe to posh for me.
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Met Dimblebum outside a hotel in Aberdeen once not so many years back, he needed a light for his fat cigar while he waited for his driver. Very nice bloke, not up himself at all.
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>>
>> I like question time but Dimbleby is not my favourite.Maybe to posh for me.
>>
I think perhaps you mean too pretentious?
;-)
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>> >>Dimbleby is not my favourite.Maybe to posh for me.
>>
>> I think perhaps you mean too pretentious?
David Dimbleby isn't pretentious. What makes you say that Duncan? He knows who he is and does his job well, without flimflam or gesticulation. He's a second-generation TV pundit, a chip off the old block like his brother Jonathan.
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Nothing wrong with a bit of bar-room philosophy. Poor analogy anyway, nobody can pin you in a corner here as they could in a pub.
TBH it's the "chill and have another beer" types I find boring, especially the vertical drinking versions who can only have the same non-conversation every time you want another drink.
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Maybe, I've seen a few people on here pinned in a corner when they did run out of ideas.
In my case it be another lemonade or coke.
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>> Sorry to make an enemy of you, AC, but somebody has to tell you.
They try to tell me all the time, but I never listen.
You may think you're my enemy, but I don't think I'm yours. 'Naff-Snug-Bar-Philosopher' is pretty inaccurate really, and not very insulting by my standards.
If you were really a Londoner you'd do better than that.
:o}
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Or Rather their Government..
"If there were any doubt that David Cameron is a lucky politician, events in Europe this last week have again made the point. No sooner had he suffered a setback at the European Council, failing to win a chance of treaty reform, than the Greek government gives him (inadvertently, no doubt), a huge helping hand.
The decision of Alexis Tsipras to commit his government to destruction by a method to be determined by the Greek voters tomorrow might be somewhat unorthodox by normal standards but then this is no orthodox government. The act of a snap referendum was, however, perhaps predictable as the equivalent of a student sit-in or protest march, which is the kind of politics Syriza is familiar with: the belief that a demonstration of solidarity and causing enough of a fuss will force opponents to grant concessions.
........
"
tinyurl.com/nbzehxe
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Not sure if Cameron got the courage of Alexis the Greek minister.He will allow his people to make the decision over these banking sheisters right or wrong.
They the Greeks have had already five years of misery a few more won't make any difference.
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>> They the Greeks have had already five years of misery a few more won't make
>> any difference.
Oh! I wonder who and what caused that misery - if that's what it is.
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>> >> incredibly boring and pointless.
>>
>> Rather like a lot of your waffle.
I'm a little hurt Londoner that you don't seem to decipher my waffle and find it boring and pointless. It's intended of course to be amusing and randomly informative. Perhaps there's some sort of language problem between us.
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I should admit I suppose that I don't have much of a clue in this area, and hurriedly tried to dismiss the whole subject as boring and pointless (when it obviously isn't if you understand it).
I'm a bit envious of those who move confidently in this area to tell the truth.
I can't come cleaner than that.
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>> I can't come cleaner than that.
>>
Don't worry, I still love you AC.
*Clears throat*
. . . . but in a MANLY, COMRADELY fashion, you understand.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 4 Jul 15 at 22:55
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>> . . . . but in a MANLY, COMRADELY fashion, you understand.
Heh heh...
When I said I don't have a clue about this stuff, what I meant was all that number palaver, not Europe on which I think I know where I stand.
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Are we all getting fed up of the European dream? It started off with my country Benelux.
Now it has become Deutschland Uber Alles.
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First contribution to this thread, but I've decided I'm going to be a "No" voter.
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It's actually started with the Treaty of Paris in 1951. Apart from the Benelux countries the signatories were France, Italy and West Germany. You might be fed up wiith the Euroean dream but Europe has now had 60 years of peace and prosperity by and large. Compare that with the first 50 years of the twentieth century. You might be a lot more fed up if you lived through that.
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I think nuclear weapons have contributed more to peace than any trading block. A punch up between the heavyweights would now end in serious tears.
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>> It's actually started with the Treaty of Paris in 1951. Apart from the Benelux countries
>> the signatories were France, Italy and West Germany. You might be fed up wiith the
>> Euroean dream but Europe has now had 60 years of peace and prosperity by and
>> large. Compare that with the first 50 years of the twentieth century. You might be
>> a lot more fed up if you lived through that.
There's more than a whiff of the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy in that argument though.
For example, we went from Waterloo in 1815 to 1914 without a european-wide war.
You could also argue that there was no appetite for more war in Europe anyway after WW2, especially since some sort of unity was needed through NATO because of the Russian threat (Unity except for France of course)
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The Franco Prussian wars were mabe not "Europe wide" but they were teh two major land based powers in Europe..
And we have the Frence/English - Russian wars in the Crimea - all of which are in Europe.
And various Turkish/Russian/Prussian/Serbian wars..
1815–1817 Second Serbian Uprising
1817–1864 Russian conquest of the Caucasus
1821–1832 Greek War of Independence
1821 Wallachian uprising of 1821
1823 French invasion of Spain
1826–1828 Russo–Persian War
1827 War of the Malcontents
1828–1829 Russo-Turkish War
1828–1834 Liberal Wars
1830 Ten Days Campaign (following the Belgian Revolt)
1830–1831 November Uprising
1831 Canut revolts
1831–1832 Great Bosnian uprising
1831–1836 Tithe War
1832 War in the Vendée and Chouannerie of 1832
1832 June Rebellion
1833–1839 First Carlist War
1833–1839 Albanian Revolts of 1833–1839
1843–1844 Albanian Revolt of 1843–1844
1846 Galician slaughter
1846–1849 Second Carlist War
1847 Albanian Revolt of 1847
1847 Sonderbund War
1848–1849 Hungarian Revolution and War of Independence
1848–1851 First Schleswig War
1848–1866 Wars of Italian Independence
1848–1849 First Italian Independence War
1859 Second Italian War of Independence
1866 Third Italian War of Independence
1853–1856 Crimean War
1854 Epirus Revolt of 1854
1858 Mahtra War
1861–62 Montenegrin–Ottoman War (1861–62)
1863–1864 January Uprising
1864 Second Schleswig War
1866 Austro-Prussian War
1866–1869 Cretan Revolt
1867 Fenian Rising
1870–1871 Franco-Prussian War
1872–1876 Third Carlist War
1873–1874 Cantonal Revolution
1875–77 Herzegovina Uprising (1875–77)
1876–78 Serbo-Turkish War (1876–78)
1876–78 Montenegrin-Ottoman War (1876-1878)
1877–1878 Russo–Turkish War
1878 Epirus Revolt of 1878
1885 Serbo-Bulgarian War
1897 Greco–Turkish War
tinyurl.com/p62t44r
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So, in other words madf, given the geopolitical status in Europe after world war 2:
- Russia retaining lands occupied during the war and forming the Warsaw Pact
- Most of non-communist Europe (plus North America) forming NATO
- Increased prosperity in Western Europe following post-war reconstruction
- The re-establishment of democratic government in countries that previously had been under totalitarian rule
- A European population with a horror armed conflict after two world wars
. . . you still believe that there would have been a war between EU countries, if the EU had never been created?
So in a "non-EU world", which countries would have fought each other?
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. you still believe that there would have been a war between EU countries, if the EU had never been created?
I have no idea. I never claimed anything of the sort: just pointing out Europe in the 19th century was not as peaceful as the article tried to prove..
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>> www.express.co.uk/news/politics/590887/Europe-fines-UK-accounting
See comment on Greece thread rs papers, their owners and politics. Only difference is I don't think Hollick is an expat
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>> So in a "non-EU world", which countries would have fought each other?
Oooh lets see. From the non EU world just since 1972.
1972–1973 Second Cod War
1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
1975-1976 Third Cod War
1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
1989 Romanian Revolution
1991 Ten-Day War (Slovenia)
1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
1992 War of Transnistria
1992 Ossetian-Ingush conflict
1992–1993 First Georgian war against Russo-Abkhazian alliance
1992–1995 Bosnian War
1993 Cherbourg incident
1993 Russian constitutional crisis
1994–1996 First Chechen War
1997 Unrest in Albania
1998–1999 Kosovo War
1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
1998 Second Georgian war against Russian-Abkhazian alliance
1999 Dagestan War
1999–2009 Second Chechen War
1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley
2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia
2002 Perejil Island crisis*
2004-2013 Unrest in Kosovo
2004 unrest in Kosovo
2008 unrest in Kosovo
2011–2013 North Kosovo crisis
2004 Georgia, Adjara crisis
2006 Georgia, Kodori crisis
2007–present Civil war in Ingushetia
2008 Russia–Georgia war
2009–present Insurgency in the North Caucasus
2013–present Euromaidan and pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine
2014 Crimean crisis
2014–present War in Donbass
* I'll let you take this one out as its between a then current EU member, and a non European state.
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Nice list, but I fear that you may be responding to a thesis that I did not make clear - which is entirely my fault in that case.
This (sub) thread was kicked off by CGNorwich's comment of [Fri 10 Jul 15 17:18]
>> It's actually started with the Treaty of Paris in 1951. Apart from the Benelux countries
>> the signatories were France, Italy and West Germany. You might be fed up wiith the
>> Euroean dream but Europe has now had 60 years of peace and prosperity by and
>> large. Compare that with the first 50 years of the twentieth century. You might be
>> a lot more fed up if you lived through that.
My comments are addressing the premise that the EEC->EU has "kept the peace in Europe" (or at least between the countries who belong to it)
Supporters of the EU tend (emphasis "tend") to believe this premise to be true.
Opponents of the EU tend to believe that the premise is false, and feel that it is unjust for the EU to claim the credit.
I am in the second group.
I don't think that it would change minds, but I'm sure that if you wanted to discuss the point further, then your contributions would be interesting, informative and enlightening. (IIRC from other threads have a strong interest in modern history.)
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>> Supporters of the EU tend (emphasis "tend") to believe this premise to be true.
>> Opponents of the EU tend to believe that the premise is false, and feel that
>> it is unjust for the EU to claim the credit.
>>
>> I am in the second group.
You can't however dispute the fact there have been no wars within the core of the EU, and later within the expanded EU, and past history would indicate that should have been the case.
Now I can't prove that the EU prevented war, any more than you can prove it was mere co-incidence. I tend to think that the tighter you tie one anothers well being, progression, prospects and destiny together the less chance you have that they will try and invade each other.
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>> Now I can't prove that the EU prevented war, any more than you can prove
>> it was mere co-incidence. I tend to think that the tighter you tie one anothers
>> well being, progression, prospects and destiny together the less chance you have that they will
>> try and invade each other.
A bit like Yugoslavia, you mean?
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>> A bit like Yugoslavia, you mean?
I've green thumbed that for originality but in real world it's an exception that's way left field - more like Iraq than Italy.
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>>
>> >> Now I can't prove that the EU prevented war, any more than you can
>> prove
>> >> it was mere co-incidence. I tend to think that the tighter you tie one
>> anothers
>> >> well being, progression, prospects and destiny together the less chance you have that they
>> will
>> >> try and invade each other.
That's true but a common enemy helps, the organisation to help stop wars in europe for so long was NATO and indircetly the USSR not the EU.
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>>
>> A bit like Yugoslavia, you mean?
As their communist block was falling apart and they had no prospects of well being, progression and destiny, then no its nothing like Yugloslavia.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 14 Jul 15 at 20:49
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>> You can't however dispute the fact there have been no wars within the core of
>> the EU, and later within the expanded EU, and past history would indicate that should
>> have been the case.
>>
>> Now I can't prove that the EU prevented war, any more than you can prove
>> it was mere co-incidence. I tend to think that the tighter you tie one anothers
>> well being, progression, prospects and destiny together the less chance you have that they will
>> try and invade each other.
>>
An excellent reply if I may say so, on many levels.
The "past history" argument is an interesting one (1). On the one hand, you could argue that having several competing nation states would cause history to keep repeating itself. On the other, it could be argued that the creation of the ECSC->EEC->EU shows that the general feeling was "we have had enough of european wars". In other words that the anti-war feeling preceeded the establishment of formal organizations.
Much as I hate to agree with a Tory MEP, Daniel Hannan expresses it this way:
"The EU is not a cause, but a consequence, of a European peace based on the defeat of fascism, the spread of democracy and the Nato alliance. If anything, jamming disparate countries into common policies has served to stoke national antagonisms."
(1) As you say,it can't be proved either way, and as the disclaimers in adverts for investments say "Past Performance is Not Necessarily Indicative of Future Results" :-)
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>> When that tit Owen Jones says this, it must be getting through!
What is it you think is 'getting through'?
Do you really favour the Keynesian economics Jones reports the EU as stopping?
In reality you and he have arrived at a similar conclusion by completely different routes and with no common way out.
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From the comments after the article, it seems that a few people agree with Mr Stamp, I am one of them.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 20 Jul 15 at 09:26
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>>From the comments after the article, it seems that a few people agree with Mr Stamp, I am one of them.
I'm staying 'up here' ON, with the mist, and the drizzle, and the peacefulness ;)
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Whatever conclusion you draw there have always been areas of London like that. In Stamp's youth the languages would have been y**dish and 'mittel European'. A few generations before that Huguenot French.
Last bit I was in was by the Inns of Court. Except for the bar staff it was white and monoglot English.
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I ain't saying nothing - in fear of being branded a racist and a xenophobe.
:o}
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>> I ain't saying nothing - in fear of being branded a racist and a xenophobe.
>>
>> :o}
Toooo late mutt.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 20 Jul 15 at 10:00
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>> From the comments after the article, it seems that a few people agree with Mr
>> Stamp, I am one of them.
If it keeps you away from the smoke it worth it.
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This is a Facebook link, so apologies in advance to non-FB-users who cannot access it.
www.facebook.com/notes/referendum-tv-channel/mass-immigration-is-down-to-the-eu/148145612183548?fref=nf
Last edited by: Roger. on Mon 20 Jul 15 at 11:54
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Don't forget Roger that the U.K. wanted these countries to ad to the E.U.
I'm not that pro German but they did warn us that it would get out of hand regarding immigration from these countries.We are a bit hyprocritical when it comes to Europe.We want a vote but not be part of it.Roll on this E.U. referendum which Mr Cameron promised.
What is the saying pigs will fly.
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>> What is the saying pigs will fly.
Bacon will go up again too, I'll wager.
:}
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Why does anyone take any notice of remarks made by film actors, an arrogant and frivolous breed?
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I've often wondered that. Why not plumbers or dentists, their views are surely equally valid.
DENTIST UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND MARKET TRADER WHEN BUYING MANGOS.
That should shift a few papers.
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>> I've often wondered that. Why not plumbers or dentists, their views are surely equally valid.
>>
I thought cab drivers were the ultimate litmus test for public opinion and wisdom.
Dentists I'd have thought were occupationally unlikely conduits for garnering public views on anything, only ever talking to people who have their mouths full and are unable to speak.
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Yeah, they always look down in the mouth to me...
Boom boom.
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But they do have the ability to drill down to the root of the problem and extract the trooth.
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What do you want, A plaque?
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Need to get to the root of the problem.. and then cap it all.. Brace yourself for a little pain.. I suspect it's an amalgam of different issues but when I crack it, I'll fill you in.
Last edited by: madf on Mon 20 Jul 15 at 18:55
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My dentist is called Gerry and has a knockout dental nurse - Anna Setic.
He got knighted recently. Now he's Sir Gerry.
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Here's your coat, I'll get the door for you.
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UKIP has made much about TTIP. The main opposition is the ISDS mechanism which would allow companies to sue governments OUTSIDE of the court system. For those of you who are interested in some hard facts as to how this works in existing trade deals then this BBC documentary, broadcast in the early hours of this morning, is one of the best 25 minutes of information on the matter you'll probably ever get. You can extend the lessons to understand just why UKIP is very concerned about the EU negotiating TTIP without the UK inserting its own protections.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02x1hnv
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EU voting thread - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
