Possibly one for Rob?
I have a piece of land attached to my domestic curtilage which was formerly owned by the adjacent farm. The farmer sold it to the previous incumbent of my property many years ago, (over 15). I wish to bring it into my domestic curtilage. I have had a word with the local Nazi Party (sorry, planning department) and they advised making an application. However I have found out (not from that unhelpful bunch) that I can apply for a certificate of Lawfullness (sp) and if as I am advised, the land in question has not been used for Agricultural purposes for the previous ten years (I have owned it for 12) then the Local Authority have to grant it. My question is: Do I really need a Lawyer to deal with this? A local Solicitor at the practice that I have used for years says budget for about £800.00 for the 4 hours she thinks it would take? My take on this is that a letter (sworn if need be) and a few photos over the intervening years should do a pretty good job. At her rates a Planning App’ would be cheaper.
Any sound advice greatly appreciated. MD
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If you feel you need professional advice, I would suggest a Planning Consultant, rather than a lawyer. You should be able to find a small local practice who will know the local nazis - may even have been one at an earlier date.
You should find one here:
www.rtpi.org.uk/
Or google locally.
HTH
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I think a certificate of lawfulness is to recognise a change of use that has already ocurred, but is now out of time regarding enforcement.
So if you had been using the land as part of your garden for 10 years, eg mowing it, creating borders, children's swing, etc, and the council had not challenged it, then you could force them to recognise the de facto change of use that had happened.
But if you have done nothing with it in the meantime, then its previous definition does not lapse, you are stuck for another 10 years.
It's a pity you drew the council's attention to this. You don't need a certificate of lawfulness for a change to be lawful, but now you have alerted the council to fact that you might be trying to get one.
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Yes the fact that it has not been used for agriculture in the past ten years does not change its planning status unless you can show that it has been constantly used for another purpose without challenge.
You will have to apply for planning permission. In my experience the planning department can be very helpful as long as you talk to them before commencing work!
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In no particular order. I am fully aware how helpful they can be when they want to. I have been dealing with the same authority for 27 years without too much drama. However it wouldn't have been too much effort for the girl to point out that a planning app' was not necessary. She has history according to all of the Architects that I speak to.
I can show that we have mowed it for 12 years and tended the shrubs that the previous incumbent had planted. I have hundreds of dated pictures.
My question was though........ Do I really need a brief on this?
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Yes, you will need sworn statement to support your application.
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Why do you need to change it?
If you have a garden where once there was part of a field, no one is ever going to come along and say, 'put it back to field' are they?
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>> Why do you need to change it?
Probably planning to sell up and move to Madiera.
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>> Probably planning to sell up and move to Madiera.
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Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that those keenest on keeping furriners out of the UK are the keenest to exercise their own rights to live in European countries when it suits them. Can't imagine anyone who bangs the UKIP/immigration drum on here would do that, though.
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>>Wouldn't it be funny if..........
Yes, but not surprising.
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>> Why do you need to change it?
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>> If you have a garden where once there was part of a field, no one
>> is ever going to come along and say, 'put it back to field' are they?
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Weren't you a detective WP? If no then forget it. If yes think outside the box:-0)
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>> Yes, you will need sworn statement to support your application.
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So for the record CG how are you so sure of this?
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Been involved in similar with three properties.
The cert of lawfulness is only applicable if a breach has been in place for 10+ uncontested years. If it has been out of farming ownership but not used for "domestic" purposes yet then the 10yr period hasn't started yet. Has yours been an obvious domestic garden area for 10+yrs?
Also the cert of lawfulness may be regarded as a grudging acceptance of the current position rather than full permission so can still give issues with purchasers solicitors if a sale is intended in the future.
Depending on your intentions for the land's use it isn't too hard to avoid the "markers" of domestic use and keep it within the requirements of agricultural land while still enjoying its use.
The latter is what we did in two cases. The third was land the council sold us and we were able to show they did so to enable us to enjoy its use for domestic purposes so we won that one.
Oh and regarding enforcement people have been required in the past to undo their "gardening" and put land back nearer to its existing state.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 10 Jun 15 at 21:08
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>> Oh and regarding enforcement people have been required in the past to undo their "gardening"
>> and put land back nearer to its existing state.
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Yes, but that's not because of the certificate of lawfulness. Enforcement cannot be applied if you can prove the 10 years of garden use. If you can do that they can't enforce it anyway.
I know this because I have recently taken expert advice from an independent surveyor/valuer who once worked in council planning. Our own unofficial transformation of what was once field into garden and extensive grounds took place unobtrusively and unremarked about 20-30 years ago.
I asked the consultant whether we were at risk, or should perhaps get a Cof L. He said it would be a waste of money - no additional purpose would be served, other than the satisfaction of rubbing the council's nose in their omissio. Not perhaps a wise move.
Incidentally incorporating field into garden does not enlarge the curtillage. Curtillage has a more restrictive meaning. Development rights apply to curtillage, although that concept is ambiguously defined except in simple cases of a suburban garden.
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>>> Oh and regarding enforcement people have been required in the past to undo their "gardening" and put land back nearer to its existing state.
>>>Yes, but that's not because of the certificate of lawfulness
I was referring in general that there are actual cases where folks have made garden where there was field and in the absence of a cert or planning permission... and not meeting the 10yr rule... they have had to rip up the garden elements.
We have achieved uncontested "transformations" by keeping the "gardening" to a rural style. All hedging and trees native species, lawn despite being mowed planted as a meadow mix so only takes a few weeks not mowing to look natural. Post and wire fences not panels, field gates not wrought iron, kids swings timber and rope hung from trees not metal and plastic from ToysRUs... that sort of thing.
Good point about the curtilage. It makes no difference at all to make a bit of field look like garden for the purposes of trying for building. Planners are often difficult but not usually so stupid that they would miss such trickery.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 11 Jun 15 at 11:10
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Certificate of Lawfullness - neiltoo
