Knife crime.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31706312
Some of you have a right go at me when I 'voice' my opinions and you seem to want to walk the middle road.
Until we as a society come down hard..and the older members here know what I mean, then nothing is ever going to change.
Make crime HURT. Really hurt. Not in the pocket cos most are skint in real terms, but make their lives very very physically uncomfortable. By this I mean carrying out WORK, not punishing them in other ways. I am despairing of our society, I really am.
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Unfortunately our illustrious leaders are a bunch of spineless PC do gooders. Nothing will change until there is serious public unrest, riots, and vigilantes start to protect their neighbourhoods.
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You guys need to stop watching "Death Wish"
I guess no-one carried a knife/razor back in the days they had hanging?
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I fear you're missing the point, pardon the pun.
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I am sure some did but borstal was a deterrent for most, and we had the police on the street without the PC mob to answer to. Don't scream police brutality, the problem these days is the young tearaways have nothing to be afraid of.
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>>but borstal was a deterrent for most
Not it wasn't. Can you guess what the re-offending rates where like from people who had been to Borstal?
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>> >>but borstal was a deterrent for most
>>
>> Not it wasn't. Can you guess what the re-offending rates where like from people who
>> had been to Borstal?
His point was presumably the offending rates of those who didn't go to Borstal.
Didn't Borstals have about half the reoffending rate of the YOIs that have succeeded them? I'd not take that as the whole story, mind, it depends what goes into them too.
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>> >>but borstal was a deterrent for most
>>
>> Not it wasn't. Can you guess what the re-offending rates where like from people who
>> had been to Borstal?
>>
Then clearly Brains, the lesson was not tough enough. Talking to the Dead Heads DOES NOT WORK.
Which bit do YOU not understand?
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Ah! the Razor gangs, Teddy boys and flick knives, duelling scars
There is nothing new in life.
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Remember kids: slash DOWN, not up or across.
Murder's for mugs.
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>> Make crime HURT. Really hurt. Not in the pocket cos most are skint in real
>> terms, but make their lives very very physically uncomfortable.
Which bit of IT DOESN'T WORK do you fail to understand. The fact that you imagine it does proves only that you're an unlikely knife crim yourself.
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snip 8< - you know why.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 01:16
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It's about time the country diverted some of the money going into the NHS into a world-leading education system.
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Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 01:13
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Hardly coded. Talk in English and I'll try and respond, but if I am reading you correctly and you are suggesting that hard labour has no effect then tell me when in modern times in this country it has been tried? I'll tell you that as far as I know it hasn't, because of the lily livered Liberals. I've said it time and time again, if the dog refuses to stop biting then look out. It is not rocket science. Find me a proven alternative that does work and I'll listen. If I've misread you then I apologise.
There was another item in the news tonight where someone got whacked over the head with a hammer. Of course I am not privy to the facts, but we (in our Fifties) used to scrap when need be and a Knife or indeed a Hammer never came in to it. I am quite confident that the punishment for such an action would have deterred me should I have had such thoughts.
My 'Old Man' was a Copper and I knew Up from Down. It didn't stop me from ploughing my own furrow though, but the thought of stabbing someone never entered my head and serious scrapes were often encountered. It seems to me though that if the media gives us an insight into the lives of a certain element of society (and it can't be all Bull surely) then the casual carrying of knives and of using the same is a very worrying trend and I believe that the perps are either unafraid of the consequences or are as thick as hsit. Show me an alternative that works and I'm on your side, but I want facts, not dreams.
Regards. MD
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>>My 'Old Man' was a Copper and I knew Up from Down. It didn't stop me from ploughing my own furrow though, but the thought of stabbing someone never entered my head
But did it help you become a reactionary, xenophobic, isolationist?
And if he had been a leftie teacher, would you have become Fred West?
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>> But did it help you become a reactionary, xenophobic, isolationist?
Which of course I am not.
>> And if he had been a leftie teacher, would you have become Fred West?
>>
Grow up man.
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Disregarding the insults - and I'm not sure why you adopted the superior, mocking tone that started it - what doesn't work?
I found some figures BTW - article from 2008.
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/philipjohnston/4329821/Bring_back_the_borstal/
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 01:14
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>> Let's try again - which bit of it doesn't work do you struggle with.
>>
I struggle with the comment 'it doesn't work'. Would you like to expand?
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Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 01:15
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And you are Genius too.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 01:17
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www.blog.murdermap.co.uk/statistics/homicide-in-england-and-wales-1898-to-2012/
Spiked a bit around 2003-04, but murder rates appear to have dropped from 1900 to ~1960 and then stayed level with population growth.
Over past 10 years the rate has dropped significantly.
Over 60% of murders are by partners, ex-partners or family members, so maybe all this vigilante-ism should be directed at wifebeaters rather than tools in gangs.
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>> And you are Genius too.
In the valley of the blind.............
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Where will it end? You will, against all the odds manage to avoid the lurking knife gangs and murderous thugs and jihadi terrorist assassins that stalk your imagination and die peacefully in your bed like the rest of us.
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Phew. Glad I missed all that. Sounded like a bit of a scuffle out on the landing.
Do take it easy chaps.
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>> Where will it end? You will, against all the odds manage to avoid the lurking
>> knife gangs and murderous thugs and jihadi terrorist assassins that stalk your imagination and die
>> peacefully in your bed like the rest of us.
All of us on here will in all likelihood.
But.... there are chunks of some of our cities where it really isn't very pleasant at all.
I had a very long and informed conversation with a lady who was a work colleague and who became a friend, she said something along the lines of "it's o.k. for you, you can afford to live in the nice areas, you can drive past all the problems, people like me have to put up with it".
She was more worried about her son, growing up in that environment, what would become of him?... etc.
Well I'm glad to say that about 10 years later, I had a phone call out of the blue, (I'd moved to a different role and to some extent we'd lost touch), she was as proud as she could be, her son had been accepted into a university and she felt as a single black mum living in Wembley in a grotty estate that the odds were stacked against her (which they were).. but the thing that I remember was her comment "kept him off the drugs and guns, love"... I laughed, because that was her humour (very similar to mine)... but then I thought, 'b***** hell, she means it'.
That is what life is like for some people..not us... but plenty have to suffer it. We should be trying to eradicate it, even things up a bit... and being 'nice' to toerags doesn't achieve that.
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>>and being 'nice' to toerags doesn't achieve that.
>>
And that is the thing that the PC, hug a hoodie, do gooders with their comfortable lifestyles do not understand. It costs nothing to be nice, but at times it is a good policy to have a very big stick.
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>> comfortable lifestyles do not understand. It costs nothing to be nice, but at times it
>> is a good policy to have a very big stick.
But being horrible to toerags does not stop them being toerags in the future.
Whatever it is that makes a toerag needs to be fixed before they become one.
But at the end of the day, toeragism isn't any worse now, than it was in the past.
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>> Whatever it is that makes a toerag needs to be fixed before they become one.
Absolutely. Very radical expensive education reform is the key to it all, but it's not a simple matter of money. A fundamental change in public and media outlook is needed, but we can whistle for it because it won't happen. For some reason the commercial powers that be, the real ones, seem to be against it. Dumb if you ask me, but what do I know? I'm not a money man.
Anyway without something like that, radical masochistic working-class conservatism will continue to sabotage all attempts at social progress.
>> But at the end of the day, toeragism isn't any worse now, than it was in the past.
It's probably no worse, but it's different, keeps changing all the time. New horrors are devised to replace old ones falling out of fashion.
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>> We should be trying to eradicate it, even things up a bit... and being
>> 'nice' to toerags doesn't achieve that.
I agree with all you've posted including need to eradicate this stuff. But how you achieve that isn't a digital question of being nice or nasty to 'toerags'. Like with the ex Jihadis we need to understand peoples journey into criminality and have an evidence based policy to deal with it.
There's no evidence base that MD's proposed regime works. Variants on it have been tried here and it's widespread over the pond. Let's just say the success rate has not been overwhelming.
And while politicians pander to those of Martin's view we're not likely to see any improvement.
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>> There's no evidence base that MD's proposed regime works. Variants on it have been tried
>> here and it's widespread over the pond. Let's just say the success rate has not
>> been overwhelming.
and the alternative?.... has the softer approach worked?.....No.
I want an iron fist for the miserable pieces of crap that do this sort of thing.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31725079
Look at how this innocent boy died...just cycling down a road.
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>>and the alternative?.... has the softer approach worked?.....No.
Firstly I don't necessarily think there should be a "softer" approach. What is needed is a *different* approach; Less pandering to the hang-em-high crowd and more attention to effective approaches.
That doesn't simply mean shorter sentences or smaller fines, it means more effective responses. Putting people in prison is, IMO, usually inappropriate - there are far more effective punishments.
And one cannot simply rely on reactive tactics - dealing with someone after they have offended. There are two issues which must both be addressed; punishing the offenders, but also addressing whatever caused them to be offenders. The second being by far the most important and the most difficult.
Old Navy' laughable idea that hitting people with a big stick will satisfy anything other than an emotional need for revenge will never achieve anything. It never has, it never will.
It depends on an overly simplistic belief that crime rates were lower in the days when prisons were bad and policemen beat people. They weren't.
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I did not say that anyone should be hit with a big stick. A big stick is a deterrent, fear of punishment whatever that may be, tough prison, not the holiday camps that we have in the UK, financial penalties designed to hurt relative to income and assets, restrictions on movement like removal of passports for a period so no hot and sunny holidays. I agree that prevention is better but that is the difficult one.
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Whilst there are clear societal differences, perhaps taking two extremes of offender treatment might be of interest.
At one extreme is North Korea, where the smallest infringement of "the rules" can lead, as we know, to many horrors, from lifetime incarceration with serious hard labour to summary execution. Have a read of The Aquariums of Pyongyang for example.
You would think, then, that that would act as a deterrent along the lines described above. Not so - here for example, is an account of how illegal USB sticks are being smuggled into the country, the discovery of the possession of which can only lead to consequences of the most unpleasant kind. And if you think that the Korean people are somehow making a political statement, would you risk your life and those of your family to watch an episode of Friends?
www.wired.com/2015/03/north-korea/
We might conclude then, that in at least that subset of the world, the threat of harsh punishment does not dissuade people from taking from what the authorities deem to be the "wrong" path.
At the other extreme might be Sweden - a country where prisoner treatment has been perceived in the past as too soft, if anything, and has tightened, but in comparison with the UK still remains light years from what we do.
Key factors there would appear to be the disassociation of politicians from the prison service, and well funded support programmes for offenders both during and after prison.
The end result appears to be that prisons are closing.
Have a look at
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/01/why-sweden-closing-prisons
So, whilst of course one's own feelings of outrage and agony over the heinous examples given above - and many others - do bubble up unwanted and unbidden, it might well pay to look at what is working elsewhere, and swallow those feelings.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 16:30
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Reasoned, as ever.
The problem with deterrence is that it only works on people who think they will be caught (or think at all).
That's mostly the people who wouldn't do it anyway.
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>> So, whilst of course one's own feelings of outrage and agony over the heinous examples
>> given above - and many others - do bubble up unwanted and unbidden, it might
>> well pay to look at what is working elsewhere, and swallow those feelings.
I would willingly support anything that truly works... however I am absolutely not prepared to support a system that some hand wringing do gooder THINKS is better than incarceration, when in reality it isn't.
I'd agree that stopping it before it starts is far better than locking someone up afterwards.. however, at the moment, in the real world, we have a significant minority of thugs who think anything goes... and in reality, unless they are caught for something at the top end of the scale, they are absolutely right.
Having seen it literally for myself.... then gone home to the nice part, leaving behind the vulnerable, I've always felt a bit guilty about it...still am.
That's why the do gooder so badly irritates me, because as sure as eggs are eggs, they don't live amongst it either.
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"That's why the do gooder so badly irritates me, because as sure as eggs are eggs, they don't live amongst it either."
Same feelings here.
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>> "That's why the do gooder so badly irritates me, because as sure as eggs are eggs, they don't live amongst it either."
I hope no one mistakes me for a do gooder. But in the Gate from the fifties to a couple of years ago off and on, after Rachman and the louche late fifties to mid-sixties there was a long period of living in various places cheek by jowl with real old hoi pollo and junkies and so on. I lived among it and sometimes almost managed to outdo it Haywain. But was usually saved by wimpishness and bourgeois instincts.
I hope that sounds suitably vainglorious.
:o}
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>> I hope no one mistakes me for a do gooder.
No. You are unique...;-)
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>>I am absolutely not prepared to support a system that some hand wringing do gooder THINKS is better than incarceration, when in reality it isn't.
Got me down as a hand-wringing do-gooder have you?
To add consistency to your sentence, try....
"... that some hand wringing do gooder THINKS is better than incarceration, when in reality I THINK it isn't..."
>>because as sure as eggs are eggs, they don't live amongst it either.
Well, if you are thinking of me, then you have truly no idea what you are talking about. NCTT, I guess.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 20:22
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>> Got me down as a hand-wringing do-gooder have you?
Wasn't necessarily aimed at you...but if the cap fits?
>> To add consistency to your sentence, try....
>>
>> "... that some hand wringing do gooder THINKS is better than incarceration, when in reality
>> I THINK it isn't..."
Well. 31 years policing our capital city, 15 years as a sergeant and a fair amount of that time employed in a busy custody suite as the custody officer... has given me an insight that many people do not possess. So I don't just think it, I know it.
There is a most simplistic positive of locking some people up. Whilst they are locked up they cannot inflict their ways on the rest of society.
>>
>> >>because as sure as eggs are eggs, they don't live amongst it either.
>>
>> Well, if you are thinking of me, then you have truly no idea what you
>> are talking about. NCTT, I guess.
Again, wasn't aimed at you. I have no idea what your circumstances are. My statement stands as it was written... oh and I have no clue as to what NCTT means, perhaps you could explain.
Last edited by: Westpig on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 21:23
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>>Well. 31 years policing our capital city, 15 years as a sergeant and a fair amount of that time employed in a busy custody suite as the custody officer
Since when did Policing reduce criminality in society?
I don't think your qualifications are as useful as you may think.
As I've said before, once you let those who detect crime also be the ones who punish it, it all goes horribly wrong.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 21:45
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Surely policing and the likelihood of being caught is recognised as a major deterrent to criminality, much more in fact than the actual punishment for the crime.
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I guess that explains the significant drop in crime during a period of massive Police number cuts.
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I'd say if there was no policing there'd be a lot more crime.
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Policing really needs engagement of the population to work effectively, not necessarily more Police.
Unfortunately in the ghettos that WP alludes to, many have lost faith in the Police, and not just the scumbags: plenty of otherwise decent citizens prefer to keep their noses out and not report criminality for fear of reprisal.
I know the Police try hard to build community relationships - this needs investment more than extra plod/tasers/pepper spray.
If any crimes are going to be humped more harshly, it should be those where criminals try to exert pressure on and intimidate witnesses - interference with the Rule of Law should be up there with rape/homicide/armed robbery.
I would imagine WP and our other (ex)Fuzz forum members have seen many cases fall apart because of knobbling of decent people by some real baddies.
I've certainly seen evidence of this in my daily life.
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>> Policing really needs engagement of the population to work effectively, not necessarily more Police.
True... but there needs to be more Police to cater for the increased population, increased crime over the years (whatever any stats say, I know what the difference was between my start in 1981 and the end in 2011) and the increased workload e.g. more cars, more collisions or things like domestic violence or child abuse being treated more seriously or computer crime, etc, etc.
Then there's the problem of who is doing the engagement...PCSO's???? That's what modern policing does, pay someone 3/4 of a Constable's wage, but who can only do 10% of what a Constable does???? Madness, just to save a bit of dosh up front, but no long term thought.
>>
>> Unfortunately in the ghettos that WP alludes to, many have lost faith in the Police,
>> and not just the scumbags: plenty of otherwise decent citizens prefer to keep their noses
>> out and not report criminality for fear of reprisal.
That's true... and some places culturally (if you can call it that) have a code of conduct which doesn't involve the police.
>>
>> I know the Police try hard to build community relationships - this needs investment more
>> than extra plod/tasers/pepper spray.
Agreed. Community policing is taking a hit with the budget cuts.
>>
>> If any crimes are going to be humped more harshly, it should be those where
>> criminals try to exert pressure on and intimidate witnesses - interference with the Rule of
>> Law should be up there with rape/homicide/armed robbery.
Couldn't agree more, it affects the very fabric of society.
>>
>> I would imagine WP and our other (ex)Fuzz forum members have seen many cases fall
>> apart because of knobbling of decent people by some real baddies.
Yes, although not as prevalent as you'd think at the uniform level I worked in... I'd imagine some of the major crime units would be able to say otherwise.
>>
>> I've certainly seen evidence of this in my daily life.
>>
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Reduction in number of police was, at least to a degree a consequence in the reduction of crime
The overall drop in crime both in the UK and worldwide is a bit of mystery to criminologistsfor which various theories have been mooted from growing living standards to better policing and even the elimination of lead from petrol and the ensuing reduction in brain damage.
You don't really believe,I suspect, that policing has no effect on criminality. Would you really want to live in city with no police force?
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>>You don't really believe...that policing has no effect on criminality
I really meant increasing policing doesn't tend to reduce criminality.
As I mention near the top of the thread, we need a world class education system to minimise criminality from the start.
Most of the 'scumbags' I know who have turned their lives around and stopped offending do so because they have largely grown up and become adults (perhaps at the age of 30...)
The vast bulk of crime never results in jail time or even being caught: it never has, and never will - the punishment part of the plan won't really influence it in the same way as offering opportunities out of the ghetto.
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I don't disagree that money would be better spent on education than jails. Draconian sentencing has never worked. I do disagree with your premise that better policing doesn't reduce crime, all studies point in the opposite direction and fear of being caught is widely seen as being a much more effective deterrent to criminal activity than a remote chance of being caught whatever the punishment.
And a minor observation. Why is "do-gooder" such a bad thing to be. It seems to me just a put down used in place of rational argument. What is the opposite, a "do -harmer"?
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>> And a minor observation. Why is "do-gooder" such a bad thing to be. It seems
>> to me just a put down used in place of rational argument. What is the
>> opposite, a "do -harmer"?
My usage is to highlight someone who thinks they know what they are talking about... from the safety of their own home or the nice part of town... and has no idea of the realities some people have to endure, because of the scum that live amongst them, because the system has been watered down and the scum don't get any punishment for their wrongdoings.
The idealist, the theory thinker, the person that always thinks of the nice side of people... only some people are awful.
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>>
>> As I mention near the top of the thread, we need a world class education
>> system to minimise criminality from the start.
... and what does one do with the oik that disrupts everything for everyone else and ruins their learning?
The dysfunctional family that couldn't give a crap and never will.
Must be like it in your profession, the no hoper on benefits for whom the whole world owes him something who is in your surgery the same morning his minor sore throat came on, instead of taking a lozenge and seeing how it goes.... and thereby taking up an appointment someone else could have had....the selfish in life.
>> Most of the 'scumbags' I know who have turned their lives around and stopped offending
>> do so because they have largely grown up and become adults (perhaps at the age
>> of 30...)
There's a lot of truth in that.
>> The vast bulk of crime never results in jail time or even being caught: it
>> never has, and never will - the punishment part of the plan won't really influence
>> it in the same way as offering opportunities out of the ghetto.
The worst offenders, when locked up...are not offending.
Last edited by: Westpig on Thu 5 Mar 15 at 08:14
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>> I guess that explains the significant drop in crime during a period of massive Police
>> number cuts.
>>
Some crime figures are skewed.
30 years ago your car was broken in to, you'd report it. Now you don't bother.
Some police forces have recorded a burglary as a theft, because it looks better.
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"Since when did Policing reduce criminality in society?"
And what good does medicine do ............ we all die in the end.
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>>And what good does medicine do ............ we all die in the end.
Reduce suffering.
Other than that I agree.
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>> I don't think your qualifications are as useful as you may think.
My qualifications were listed to show I do know what I am talking about with regards toe rags and criminality and the free for all they have and how light sentencing allows them an ever free reign.... as another poster wrote that I only 'think' I know that.
>> As I've said before, once you let those who detect crime also be the ones
>> who punish it, it all goes horribly wrong.
Wouldn't argue against that. All I ask for is a robust system for the few that prey on the rest.
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>>31 years policing our capital city, 15 etc etc.............
I wouldn't let a mechanic design a car or define safety specifications, either. Mechanics fix cars when they have gone wrong, they are not experts on how to design them so that they don;t go wrong in the first place, but I bet they think they are.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 4 Mar 15 at 22:45
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And I bit they could give some useful feedback as to where the weaknesses are and where the product could be improved.
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Absolutely.
But that feedback would probably be more related to dealing with vehicles that have gone wrong, and less to do with designing them not to go wrong.
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There's been another dialogue de sourds here.
Police officers are paid to keep order by force if necessary. Doctors and other professionals are paid to keep order in other ways. Simple as rocket science.
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>> >>31 years policing our capital city, 15 etc etc.............
>>
>> I wouldn't let a mechanic design a car or define safety specifications, either. Mechanics fix
>> cars when they have gone wrong, they are not experts on how to design them
>> so that they don;t go wrong in the first place, but I bet they think
>> they are.
I see your point about designing out crime in the first place.... but... we do not have that system in place. So in the absence of that, we need to thoroughly use what we do have even if it were to be flawed, it's all we have... and we don't do that either.
That means that some people have a free for all.... and that's not right.
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I still think that a short sharp shock in a tough secure establishment that no youngster would ever wish to be in would work for a lot of going offenders.
An example, I joined the Navy in 1960, a different age I know. For the first six weeks every moment of the day was accounted for, mainly making you a totally self sufficient smart clean human being. No mummy to do the washing and ironing. This was followed by academic, nautical, and military training, sports, including sail racing, athletics, and team sports. Once again once again every moment of the day occupied by some activity. I got for a second think that the military should take on the role of a punishment enforcer but sorting out youngsters is not rocket science. And oh yes there were penalties within the Navy training process if you tried it on. :)
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>> I still think that a short sharp shock in a tough secure establishment that no
>> youngster would ever wish to be in would work for a lot of going offenders.
>> first six weeks every moment of the day was accounted for, mainly making you a
>> totally self sufficient smart clean human being. No mummy to do the washing and ironing.
>> This was followed by academic, nautical, and military training, sports, including sail racing, athletics, and
>> team sports.
>>
Mine was the police cadets for 15 months in 1980.... dormitories, bulled shoes, marching, sport, classroom work.... I hated it, but pride and the goal at the end of it made me stick it out. Didn't do me any harm.
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>>.. I hated it, but pride and the goal at the end of it made me stick it out.
If you had been forced unwillingly into that regime and had no interest in the goal at the end , how would that have worked out?
Just how strong would those feelings of hate become, especially surrounded by many others who felt the same?
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>> If you had been forced unwillingly into that regime and had no interest in the
>> goal at the end , how would that have worked out?
>>
>> Just how strong would those feelings of hate become, especially surrounded by many others who
>> felt the same?
>>
Your answer will be if all the multitude of people before me that did National Service... and whether they saw it as a positive influence on their later lives.. or a negative one.
My neighbour in London did NS and he had fond memories of serving in the Army in Egypt, post war... along with all the negative memories of course... but on the whole he saw it as a positive.
I happen to think that something similar would be a good thing, because some parents don't bring their children up very well... and we all inherit the results.
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>>Your answer will be if all the multitude of people before me that did National Service... and whether they saw it as a positive influence on their later lives.. or a negative one.
A totally different thing. That applied to all and was part fo lie, not a punishment.
Using National Service as a prison regime for people who were criminals, had committed a crime, and saw it as a punishment directed at them would be a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
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>> A totally different thing. That applied to all and was part fo lie, not a
>> punishment.
>>
>> Using National Service as a prison regime for people who were criminals, had committed a
>> crime, and saw it as a punishment directed at them would be a whole 'nother
>> kettle of fish.
>>
I thought you wanted a system whereby people didn't commit crime?
So I'm proposing they gain a bit of self worth and respect for others by something like Nat Service.
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>>I thought you wanted a system whereby people didn't commit crime?
Don't you?
Doesn't everybody want a world without crime? In any case, I was discussing ways of approaching the problem of reducing crime.
ON said;
"I still think that a short sharp shock in a tough secure establishment......."
"An example, I joined the Navy in 1960....."
I think National Service, or something similar, is a valuable idea worth considering.
I think National Service as a "short sharp shock" as punishment is not a good idea.
You have lead a very "sheltered" or "closed" life pretty much only seeing things in one country from the position of one job. An essential job, to be sure, but still only one.
There's a lot more to the problem than arresting and jailing. Part of resolving a problem, as opposed to treating the symptoms, is to lose closed minds and dogma, and openly consider what is happening without emotion. To move past some emotional need for revenge and satisfaction, and to consider the real goal; which is a reduction of crime in society, not the emotionally-driven punishment of a single criminal.
Punishment is part of the solution, but not the whole solution. Punishment is a reaction to something which has already happened. The solution is trying to stop it happening.
10,000 years of hang 'em high and big sticks doesn't appear to have solved much, does it?
In fact, overall trends suggest that moving away from the Old Testament actually improves things.
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Ah the NS never did me any harm argument. And of course crime and bad behaviour was completely eradicated during the tenure of the NS generations wasn't it.
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>>I still think that a short sharp shock in a tough secure establishment that no youngster would ever wish to be in would work for a lot of going offenders.
It may well work for some, but not for the majority, IMO.
Bear in mind these people will have been forced in and surrounded by others who have been forced in, most of whom have no interest in the end result and all of whom will be seeking various ways and dodges.
Now, if more youngsters were encouraged *voluntarily* into such a scheme, BEFORE they'd actually become the criminal, that may well be a different matter.
So, something like National Service as a punishment or a deterrent is unlikely to work and may well cause the production of hard-nosed, tough and bitter repeat offenders.
Something like National Service being used to address the reasons why people become criminals and, as you put it, "making you a totally self sufficient smart clean human being" may be a different matter.
That's the point.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 5 Mar 15 at 09:50
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I suggest half an hour invested in listening to today's "Face the Facts" for anybody with opinions on this topic.
"Life in Gangland London" will presumably be available on demand when it has finished.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007tmlp
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As you very clever people have not come up with a solution for the prevention of youngsters criminal or antisocial activities, I maintain that until the consequences of their actions are so unpleasant that they outweigh the pleasure of misbehaviour nothing will change.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 5 Mar 15 at 12:43
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>> I maintain that until the consequences of their actions are so unpleasant that they outweigh the pleasure of misbehaviour nothing will change.
Hanging didn't stop murder. So maintain away, you;re still wrong.
(And while reoffending was low, it was difficult to apologise to those wrongly convicted).
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 5 Mar 15 at 12:58
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When the results of a nuclear attack became obvious the use of nuclear weapons was deterred. Maybe something on a smaller scale is needed. Like you stab someone for their bike you get a long time in a harsh jail, not a secure hotel with TV, gymnasiums, sports facilities etc. Inmates should be too tired for them if they have done a days work.
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>> Hanging didn't stop murder.
Oh it will have done.
There aren't any hanged double murderers who were hanged after the first one.
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>> Now, if more youngsters were encouraged *voluntarily* into such a scheme, BEFORE they'd actually become the
>> criminal, that may well be a different matter.
Like the National Citizen Service, with all its face book and TV adverts aimed at 16/17 year olds:
www.ncsyes.co.uk/about
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When will it end - Old Navy
