Non-motoring > Another plane crash Miscellaneous
Thread Author: BobbyG Replies: 84
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 09:09 
 Another plane crash - BobbyG
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31125052

Not what you would expect to see on your dashcam!! Something gone majorly wrong somewhere!
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 09:28 
 Another plane crash - Stuartli
Also see:

tinyurl.com/kuxxx8s

Both the taxi driver and whoever had the dashcam in their vehicle were both very lucky although, sadly, many on the plane have lost their lives.
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 11:24 
 Another plane crash - movilogo
For a long period aircraft crash was extremely rare event.

Now suddenly we are seeing a number of aircrafts going down (whatever be the reason).

What is happening?

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 Wed 4 Feb 15 11:48 
 Another plane crash - WillDeBeest
Clearly God is punishing the world for its wickedness and for allowing gay people to marry.
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 11:51 
 Another plane crash - R.P.
Many more flights ?

aviation-safety.net/statistics/

Actually shows last year there were fewer crashes...(does not include the Air Malaysia Shoot down)
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 12:13 
 Another plane crash - Stuartli
Still the safest form of travel.
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 12:42 
 Another plane crash - WillDeBeest
That's trains, isn't it?

To give a more reasoned answer to Movi's question, rare events are, well, rare, but they do happen. Every so often they happen in clusters. You wouldn't roll a die and expect to throw five sixes in a row, but every so often someone does, and occasionally several people do in quick succession.

As another illustration, when you buy mosaic tiles for your bathroom wall, the 'random' pattern you see is actually pseudo-random. Why? Because a truly random distribution has too many clumps and clusters in it to fit with our idea of what looks properly random!
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 12:47 
 Another plane crash - R.P.
Mmm....another hour in te bath studying tiles.
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 13:02 
 Another plane crash - henry k
No hanging about out there!

A very large mobile crane appeared on site and has now moved the hull to the river bank.

Continuous coverage....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8GmxMGCDh4
Sorry no translation
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 21:46 
 Another plane crash - Fursty Ferret
Looks like one of my landings.
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      1  
 Wed 4 Feb 15 22:17 
 Another plane crash - Dave_
A comment on the thumbnail picture earlier: "White X means Lane Closed"
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 Wed 4 Feb 15 22:55 
 Another plane crash - mikeyb
You must have been flying the 319 I was on last night then!
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 Thu 5 Feb 15 23:37 
 Another plane crash - henry k
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31143710

A VW survivor
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 08:51 
 Another plane crash - Old Navy
Just heard on Sky News that both engines failed soon after take off.

My speculation is lack of fuel for whatever reason.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 09:20 
 Another plane crash - henry k
The very latest suggestion on the web.They shut the wrong engine down.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 09:22 
 Another plane crash - Zero
>> The very latest suggestion on the web.They shut the wrong engine down.

Not the first time that one would have happened.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 09:23 
 Another plane crash - Slidingpillar
If that is true, Kegworth again.

The crash at Kegworth was caused by shutting the good engine and expecting the broken one to work. A bit more to it, but that's the basics.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 09:26 
 Another plane crash - Bromptonaut
>> The very latest suggestion on the web.They shut the wrong engine down.

See www.pprune.org/rumours-news/555876-transasia-water-13.html
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 10:25 
 Another plane crash - BiggerBadderDave
My theory is to always leave the cockpit, walk down the cabin, look out of the window, see which engine is on fire and then shut it down. Everyone on the plane knew at Kegworth (except the pilots).

I do enjoy Air Crash Investigation, nay, addicted. So is my little boy. New episode on Monday.
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      1  
 Fri 6 Feb 15 10:29 
 Another plane crash - Zero
I read a report or a tale somewhere, of a a crew in a defective engine scenario scared of shutting down the working engine, so they placed some kind of visible marker or tag on the good throttle lever with the word NO on it.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 6 Feb 15 at 10:29
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 10:32 
 Another plane crash - Manatee
www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/transasia-atr-flight-data-suggests-wrong-engine-shut-408774/
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 11:08 
 Another plane crash - WillDeBeest
It's about the one situation left that slightly supports the superstitions of the four-engines-good lobby: if you're going to shut down a good engine by mistake, you'll still have two more good ones running. But, so soon after takeoff, would two out of four be enough to keep the plane flying?

Ergonomics here might be worth looking at – perhaps Fursty could comment. The throttle levers are traditionally placed side by side. While convenient in normal operation, does this make it easier to move the wrong one in an emergency?
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 14:19 
 Another plane crash - Fursty Ferret
>> Ergonomics here might be worth looking at - perhaps Fursty could comment.
>> The throttle levers are traditionally placed side by side

I have no idea why or how they could shut down the wrong engine.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 11:13 
 Another plane crash - NortonES2
Didn't see the updates! Deleted my whittering.
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Fri 6 Feb 15 at 11:14
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 11:30 
 Another plane crash - J Bonington Jagworth
"leave the cockpit, walk down the cabin, look out of the window"

As long as, facing the other way, he doesn't call out "the one on the left".. :-)
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 11:41 
 Another plane crash - BiggerBadderDave
You're right there JBJ. It's open for making mistakes.

How about naming each engine? For example, John, Paul, George and Ringo on a 747.

"George has flamed out!"
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      4  
 Fri 6 Feb 15 11:44 
 Another plane crash - WillDeBeest
Tinky-Winky, Dipsy, Lala and Po on an A380. They could have colour-coded cowlings and levers too - with appropriately shaped hats on the levers. Foolproof!
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 11:49 
 Another plane crash - J Bonington Jagworth
Or perhaps just a label on the throttle levers: "Are you sure?"
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 11:50 
 Another plane crash - R.P.
Or a dis-embodied voice, mid atlantic accent "Are you sure you want to do this Dave ?"
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 11:45 
 Another plane crash - R.P.
Sonny and Cher on a twin ?

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 Fri 6 Feb 15 11:46 
 Another plane crash - R.P.
"Shutting down Tinky Winky..."
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 13:04 
 Another plane crash - Zero
>> You're right there JBJ. It's open for making mistakes.
>>
>> How about naming each engine? For example, John, Paul, George and Ringo on a 747.
>>
>> "George has flamed out!"

Ringo is off beat! Well we all knew that.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 13:52 
 Another plane crash - R.P.
Paul would have to be on the left hand wing.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 14:21 
 Another plane crash - Fursty Ferret
>> "leave the cockpit, walk down the cabin, look out of the window"
>>
>> As long as, facing the other way, he doesn't call out "the one on the
>> left".. :-)
>>
>>

Ever since Kegworth quite a lot of effort goes into teaching cabin crew the correct way to identify an engine. If we've suffered an engine problem (only in the sim for me) the conversation with the cabin crew might start "Have you noticed anything unusual?".
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 14:57 
 Another plane crash - crocks
Answer. " Yes. All the people on the port side are screaming."
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 15:09 
 Another plane crash - J Bonington Jagworth
"teaching cabin crew the correct way to identify an engine"

I'm slightly alarmed to hear that this might be necessary...
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 15:13 
 Another plane crash - Slidingpillar
Ever since Kegworth quite a lot of effort goes into teaching cabin crew the correct way to identify an engine. If we've suffered an engine problem (only in the sim for me) the conversation with the cabin crew might start "Have you noticed anything unusual?".

I'd hope the idea of left and right is as seen from the cockpit seats, in the normal direction of travel? One refers to car bits that way, and it is consistent with the medical profession using the patient's left and right for descriptions.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Fri 6 Feb 15 at 15:14
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 15:28 
 Another plane crash - Gromit
I've always referred to "port" and "starboard" with regard to aircraft and boats, but that might have rubbed off from being fascinated with both since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Both parents having worked in aviation might have some role too...

In fact, Little Brother could never remember which foot was left and which was right as a kid - he had to learn that 'left' meant port-side, and vice versa!

I was more surprised to see Flight International using 'left' and 'right'. You'd hope their readers could tell port from starboard :-)
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 15:35 
 Another plane crash - R.P.
I think pointing out of the window and screaming might get the point across..
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 15:40 
 Another plane crash - sooty123

>> I was more surprised to see Flight International using 'left' and 'right'. You'd hope their
>> readers could tell port from starboard :-)
>>

Never seen engines 'named' port and starboard, either left and right or if more than one engine, numbered.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 15:56 
 Another plane crash - Slidingpillar
Never seen engines 'named' port and starboard, either left and right or if more than one engine, numbered.

Numbering engines though is dangerous, unless in a twin, the left/port engine is one and the right/starboard engine is two.

However, that leads onto cylinder numbering and it all goes wrong. A two or three speed V twin Morgan, cylinder number one is the one on the right/drivers side and number two is on the left/passenger side. And if that seems odd and the same engine in a motorbike the rear cylinder would be number one - true. Magneto timing on a twin is a barrel of laughs, and can be nice and confusing.

I shudder to think how a V engine cylinder could be numbered in an aircraft, and the fact that most aero engined cars put the propeller end at the rear of the car.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 16:01 
 Another plane crash - sooty123
>> Never seen engines 'named' port and starboard, either left and right or if more than
>> one engine, numbered.
>>
>> Numbering engines though is dangerous, unless in a twin, the left/port engine is one and
>> the right/starboard engine is two.

I should have put 'more than two engines' but no there's nothing dangerous about it.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 16:08 
 Another plane crash - WillDeBeest
Haven't port and starboard practically disappeared from commercial aviation, presumably because 'left' and 'right' are more Globish and - well - easier to understand?
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 16:23 
 Another plane crash - Bromptonaut
>> Haven't port and starboard practically disappeared from commercial aviation, presumably because 'left' and 'right' are
>> more Globish and - well - easier to understand?

Civil ATC instructions are certainly phrased as left/right and have been for all of the 40 or so years I've earwigged on them.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 16:28 
 Another plane crash - sooty123
>> Haven't port and starboard practically disappeared from commercial aviation, presumably because 'left' and 'right' are
>> more Globish and - well - easier to understand?
>>

Can't say I've seen them, you're probably right an old fashioned term/s not used much now.

Globish= more global?
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 6 Feb 15 at 16:31
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 16:36 
 Another plane crash - WillDeBeest
Global English. You may not think you speak it - but you do!
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 16:48 
 Another plane crash - sooty123
>> Global English.

Ah right thanks

You may not think you speak it - but you do!

Never thought about whether I do or don't tbh.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 16:51 
 Another plane crash - CGNorwich
>> >> Haven't port and starboard practically disappeared from commercial aviation,


Still used in space.


There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
there's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, Jim.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 16:39 
 Another plane crash - Haywain
"Haven't port and starboard practically disappeared"

When we're out gallivanting about the North Sea and bothering fish from my mate's boat, we always refer to 'port' and 'starboard'. 'Left' and 'right' can mean anything, depending on which direction the observer is looking from.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 16:49 
 Another plane crash - sooty123
'Left' and 'right' can mean anything, depending on
>> which direction the observer is looking from.
>>

They have replaced port and starboard in aircraft circles, the meanings are clear.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 17:17 
 Another plane crash - WillDeBeest
Ignore HW, he's being wilfully obtuse - and quoting me out of context.
}:---P
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 18:13 
 Another plane crash - J Bonington Jagworth
"I shudder to think how a V engine cylinder could be numbered in an aircraft"

Must have been hard work in a Spitfire, then! 14-cylinder radials with two banks (e.g. Twin Wasp) must have been tricky, too...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_R-1830_Twin_Wasp
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 18:45 
 Another plane crash - NortonES2
Pretty difficult on a fwd 5 cylinder Megola: www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAQuljp-atA
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 20:35 
 Another plane crash - Slidingpillar
Napier Lion must be fun to number too:
www.enginehistory.org/restorations.shtml

Lots of pictures and a reference to this car:
www.wfmu.org/Gfx/user_images/napier_20bentley_3588776882277605.jpg
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 21:50 
 Another plane crash - Steve
During a past life as an Mot tester, I came across many customers confused by the terms 'nearside - offside' As you all know, in the motor trade they are standard terms for one side or the other, and impossible (In the UK) to be mixed up - no matter what the orientation of car or driver.
You might be surprised by the number of drivers who think that Nearside means the side closest to them.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 22:00 
 Another plane crash - henry k
>>, I came across many customers confused by the terms 'nearside - offside'
Both my son and daughter, both in their 30s, both very bright and switched on, d o not know these terms and a I get a prod to speak in a language they understand.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 22:09 
 Another plane crash - Bromptonaut
>> Both my son and daughter, both in their 30s, both very bright and switched on,
>> d o not know these terms and a I get a prod to speak in
>> a language they understand.


Me too, son 20 and daughter 22. I think she grasped it with a bit of thought and compliance with 'Dad's 'old fashioned stuff'. The Lad still struggles.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 6 Feb 15 at 22:13
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 23:32 
 Another plane crash - CGNorwich
'Dad's 'old fashioned stuff'.

"Near and Off Side. Left side and right side. “Near wheel” means that to the coachman's left hand; and “near horse” (in a pair) means that to the left hand of the driver. In a four-in-hand the two horses on the left side of the coachman are the near wheeler and the near leader. Those on the right hand side of the coachman are “off horses.” This, which seems an anomaly, arose when the driver walked beside his team. The teamster always walks with his right arm nearest the horse, and therefore, in a pair of horses, the horse on the left side is nearer than the one on his right.

1 3

2 4

Thus, 2 is the near wheeler and 1 the near leader, 4 is the off wheeler and 3 the off leader."



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 Sat 7 Feb 15 00:01 
 Another plane crash - Steve
To be honest, I always thought that nearside meant nearest to the kerb !
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      3  
 Sat 7 Feb 15 00:35 
 Another plane crash - sooty123
I get a prod to speak in
>> a language they understand.
>>

What words do you use to them?
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 22:33 
 Another plane crash - Haywain
"As you all know, in the motor trade they are standard terms for one side or the other, and impossible (In the UK) to be mixed up - no matter what the orientation of car or driver. "

Not a lot of use, then, if you go over to the continent? We should use 'port' and 'starboard' on all vehicles; them old mariners knew what they wuz doing.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 22:36 
 Another plane crash - Zero

>> Not a lot of use, then, if you go over to the continent? We should
>> use 'port' and 'starboard' on all vehicles; them old mariners knew what they wuz doing.

No they didn't, they used starboard and larboard.
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 Fri 6 Feb 15 22:42 
 Another plane crash - Steve
Going back a few years now, but when I had a boat, I used my own memory jog, No red port left.
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 02:54 
 Another plane crash - No FM2R
Driver's side & Passenger side works pretty well. If i said near/far side i would just get blank looks.
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 08:29 
 Another plane crash - Haywain
"them old mariners knew what they wuz doing."

"no they didn't, they used starboard and larboard."

Jumping in again before engaging brain - you never let us down, Zedd! I said 'old' not 'ancient'. By 'old' I mean around the mid 1850s when the clever mariners realised that larboard sounded too much like starboard and, at that point, the navy also adopted the term 'port'.

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 Sat 7 Feb 15 09:02 
 Another plane crash - Zero

>>
>> Jumping in again before engaging brain - you never let us down, Zedd! I said
>> 'old' not 'ancient'. By 'old' I mean around the mid 1850s when the clever mariners
>> realised that larboard sounded too much like starboard and, at that point, the navy also
>> adopted the term 'port'.

Surely anyone with an engaged brain would have seen it was humour? Well at least "jumping in" made you do a google search and learn something.
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 10:09 
 Another plane crash - Old Navy
Obviously Zero will know the maritime numbering system in relation to port and starboard, it is not the same as multi engined aircraft. In my time at sea the port / starboard, left / right terminology was becoming blurred. A helm order could equally be " Port wheel steer xxx" or "Come left steer xxx".
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 7 Feb 15 at 10:12
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 13:18 
 Another plane crash - Roger.
My little bit of bootneck maritime training (a frigate in the Solent as OOW - closely supervised (!) was as follows.
OOW - "Port 10".
Helmsman." Port 10, sir"
Helmsman "10 of port wheel on"
OOW "steer xxx degrees"
Quite fun driving a ship!

Our other sea-day as supernumeraries on a diesel electric boat was horridly boring.
(Circa 1954)
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 10:19 
 Another plane crash - Haywain
"Well at least "jumping in" made you do a google search and learn something."

Powerboat certification training, dear boy - I learned a lot ;-)
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 10:31 
 Another plane crash - Runfer D'Hills
When I had the Westfield ( did I ever mention I had a Westfield? ) and we used to take it on our "great European road adventures" sometimes it was difficult when driving on the right to establish when it was safe to overtake. Unlike a normal car you sit so low to the ground that your sight lines particularly on hilly or mountainous stretches are reduced by a much closer "horizon".

My then girlfriend and now wife used to help by calling out a double check "go" or "no" from the passenger seat. Now with the apocalyptic roar from the engine and wind rush, "go" and "no" can sound quite similar...

We/she fairly quickly decided to change that to "safe" and "no" as being more distinct words.
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 10:46 
 Another plane crash - WillDeBeest
I know your views on cricket, Humph, but it might interest you to know that we coach our young players to call 'Yes' or 'No' when judging a run, for exactly that reason. 'Wait' if they're not immediately sure.

But if the future Mrs Humph was the better judge of an overtake, why didn't you just let her drive?
}:---P
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 11:34 
 Another plane crash - Runfer D'Hills
Because the lightweight sports door mirrors were jolly expensive that's why...

;-)
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sat 7 Feb 15 at 11:38
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 11:48 
 Another plane crash - Old Navy
Do you bulk buy wing / door mirrors ?
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 11:51 
 Another plane crash - Runfer D'Hills
No, but I have just had to order a tin of Nissan red touch up paint today...

:-(
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 13:08 
 Another plane crash - Old Navy
Does that fix the amber flashy light thingies in the door mirrors ?
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 13:10 
 Another plane crash - Runfer D'Hills
No but it does fix the scratched bumper...
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 13:14 
 Another plane crash - Old Navy
That's a slippery slope, mirrors, bumpers, where next, wheel arches, doors ? I have a problem driver too, she opened the drivers door in a full gale, fortunately there was a wall alongside the door or the door, wing, hinges and door pillar would have needed repairs. As it was it was just a £300 door edge repair.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 7 Feb 15 at 13:18
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 13:25 
 Another plane crash - Runfer D'Hills
I have proposed the motion that now the supermarkets do home deliveries and clothes can be easily purchased online, that she really doesn't need to leave the safety of her kitchen much and may not be able to justify owning a car in the long term.

So far it has met with what I feel is a fairly unreasonable level of resistance but I remain confident that she will, in due course, come to see the sense in it.
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 Sat 7 Feb 15 23:10 
 Another plane crash - Zero

>> So far it has met with what I feel is a fairly unreasonable level of
>> resistance but I remain confident that she will, in due course, come to see the
>> sense in it.

You may well be able to sell fridges to eskimos, you may well have made it to director of sales, but I can tell you, you have NFC with that one.
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      1  
 Sat 7 Feb 15 22:54 
 Another plane crash - BobbyG
should have got the version with the reversing sensors....
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      1  
 Sun 8 Feb 15 09:17 
 Another plane crash - Runfer D'Hills
It has those Bobby. But it doesn't have them at the front. This is not normally a problem as most drivers look where they are flipping going when parking next to brand new Mercs...
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 Sun 8 Feb 15 10:11 
 Another plane crash - BobbyG
media.merchantcircle.com/18743170/car-insurance-bubble-wrap-small-84841_full.jpeg
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 Thu 2 Jul 15 13:20 
 Another plane crash - VxFan
Taiwan's aviation regulator has released data showing the pilot of a TransAsia plane which crashed in Taipei had switched off the working engine after the other lost power.

The report says that in a cockpit recording, the pilot is heard saying: "Wow, pulled back the wrong side throttle."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33358707

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 Thu 2 Jul 15 13:26 
 Another plane crash - Zero

>> The report says that in a cockpit recording, the pilot is heard saying: "Wow, pulled
>> back the wrong side throttle."
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33358707

Again! This makes at least the third time this has happened.
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 Thu 2 Jul 15 13:39 
 Another plane crash - No FM2R
>>This makes at least the third time this has happened.

Jeez, you'd think he'd have got the hang of it by now.
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