www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-31121160
Now this is going to sound awful, but there is no easy way to put this.
Good. Feel sorry for his family and relatives of course and its an awful way to kill someone BUT
Jordans actions were inexcusable, you don't join a war alliance to kill people, in the name of defeating inhumane terror, and then offer to release a convicted bomber to get your combatant back.
Now they can't do that - maybe they will now learn this is for real and not some publicity stunt.
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The video is now on-line.
Last edited by: Roger. on Tue 3 Feb 15 at 20:05
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I actually agreed with this prisoner swap. Jordan actually pointed out that they didn't want this suicide bomber in their prison system radicalising other women. They'll hang her now for you. My thoughts coincided with Edith Cavell's attributed words when she was executed by the Germans in October 1915.
"Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone."
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>> I actually agreed with this prisoner swap. Jordan actually pointed out that they didn't want
>> this suicide bomber in their prison system radicalising other women.
Well thats a fab idea then. Female suicide bombers go to Jordan and get a get out of jail free card
>> They'll hang her now for
>> you.
So they were happy to let her go when she had some worth, and now she hasn't they will hang her? So who is better IS caliphate or the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan?
>>My thoughts coincided with Edith Cavell's attributed words when she was executed by the
>> Germans in October 1915.
>>
>> "Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone."
I don't think Edith Cavell went around with a bomb vest trying to blow non combative german citizens to little bits. That is a silly comparison.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 3 Feb 15 at 20:37
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I don't think I made that comparison...
Well thats a fab idea then. Female suicide bombers go to Jordan and get a get out of jail free card
Well that's a likely outcome....they probably didn't think it out..
So they were happy to let her go when she had some worth, and now she hasn't they will hang her? So who is better IS caliphate or the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan?
Good question
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Who in their right mind would want to watch that?
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Sick beyond belief!
Apparently the pilot was dead for some time, ISIS tried to negotiate anyway.
I don't understand why their victims go out so calmly. Are they tranquilized? I think I would be kicking and screaming as much as I could - well I hope I would anyway!
I think we need to remember that the pilot and the other hostages are not the only atrocities that ISIS are undertaking.
They are executing people for being homosexual, apparently breading pigeons, watching football matches on TV etc etc. They are buying and selling women as slaves to do with as they will.
Evil!
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>> >> I don't understand why their victims go out so calmly. Are they tranquilized? I think
>> I would be kicking and screaming as much as I could - well I hope
>> I would anyway!
>>
>> >>
The same reason many Jewish people walked unprotestingly to what they knew were gas chambers. In that situation you have been stripped of all power and have no ability to control events.
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Take away the religious excuse and it's 'just' violent organised crime. They fund themselves by kidnapping and extortion, and those who decide it wasn't for them are quite likely to be killed unless they escape.
newswashington.co.uk/article/2779719/the-cost-of-leaving-islamic-state-death-or-jail
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It's simpler than all that:
They do it because they think they are right.
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>> They do it because they think they are right.
Not really. They do it because they want to. They don't really 'think' like you or me Lygonos. They have a poor grasp of the distinction between 'right' and 'wrong', having been systematically mystified since birth. Voluntarism and self-belief (or 'arrogance' as some would call it) are the substitutes.
This isn't rare at all, nor is it new, nor is it restricted to Islamists or any other sort of ideologue. I first noticed it in the playground.
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>> I first noticed it in the playground.
I'm not claiming to have met a lot of murderers in the playground. But one has to bear in mind that most gratuitous brutality stops well short of murder. If all such acts caused death there would be no one left alive on the planet.
:o}
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There seems no limit to human infamy.
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>>
>> This isn't rare at all, nor is it new, nor is it restricted to Islamists
>> or any other sort of ideologue. I first noticed it in the playground.
>>
You seem to be relating this entirely to the behaviour of individuals, rather than a deliberate campaign by the "state"?
What strikes me is the similarity between these people now and our own in Tudor reformation times. Heretics were burned at the stake as part of state policy, whichever religious group was in power, and the spectacle seemed to be enjoyed by great numbers of "ordinary" people, not just the fanatics and militants.
It is very hard not to conclude that we were barbarous then but over a few hundred years have become civilised, but states and peoples in some other parts of the world have not, and are stuck in time.
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>>, but states and peoples in some other parts of the world have not, and are stuck in time.
>>
Islamic Hijri Calendar. The current year is 1436.
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>> >>, but states and peoples in some other parts of the world have not, and
>> are stuck in time.
>> >>
>> Islamic Hijri Calendar. The current year is 1436.
>>
Excellent, Gutenberg should be unveiling the printing press any day soon then
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Watch the last 5 minutes of the burning at the stake in last night's Wolf Hall (episode 3 Anne Regina).. of a heretic..
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>> the behaviour of individuals, rather than a deliberate campaign by the "state"?
There is no 'state', it's entirely imaginary. These things are being done by a loose, shifting, very thin coalition of deranged individuals.
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>> >> the behaviour of individuals, rather than a deliberate campaign by the "state"?
>>
>> There is no 'state', it's entirely imaginary. These things are being done by a loose,
>> shifting, very thin coalition of deranged individuals.
>>
>>
Well, you seem to be well informed, so I presume you are right.
But it seems to me to be too well coordinated to be just the actions of deranged individuals.
I picture more a controlling group who are very canny, and know how to use modern media, publicity, crime and funding networks, etc, and are cleverly manipulating a lot of brainwashed and deranged followers for their own ends.
Their methods may be repulsive, but they are methods, and someone is calclating just how far to go, how far to push the west and other Arab states. A bit like the French or Bolshevic revolutions - terror has its uses for pursuing ends, but at some point they turn it off and use another approach.
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Perhaps I'm wrong CP, I often am. But it seems to me that the fact some of these people work together and communicate with one another doesn't make them a 'state'. That's a very pretentious term for a random bunch of Islamist thugs swearing provisional fealty to a small range of 'Imams' and experienced toerags.
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"There is no 'state', it's entirely imaginary. "
All states are of course imaginary. I know where the geographical land called France is and I know that's where French speaking people live but the "State of France" exists purely in those millions of peoples peoples imaginations who deem it to exist.
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Everything - the whole universe - can be said quite convincingly to be 'all in the mind', CGN. Nevertheless we cant help being convinced that it's really physically there. You're wrong about e.g. the French or British state. Those have established machinery for justice, defence, social services and so on which may change a little over time but can be relied on in the short and medium term. Even dictatorships maintain state machinery.
Isis/Isil consists of volunteers who, if you like, all fancy themselves as dictators. But they can't be called 'states' without having unified, established leaderships. Jordan and Iran are states. Not Isil though.
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"Everything - the whole universe - can be said quite convincingly to be 'all in the mind', CGN. Nevertheless we cant help being convinced that it's really physically there. You're wrong about e.g. the French or British state. Those have established machinery for justice, defence, social services and so on which may change a little over time but can be relied on in the short and medium term. Even dictatorships maintain state machinery."
No. I'm not wrong. All nation states exist purely in the human imagination. They are not physical entities and indeed if you were to go back 1,000 years even the concept of the the nation state hardly existed. They exist because we deem them to exist and we find it useful that they do exist and we endow this imaginary entity with rights and powers which are enforced by its very real executive who maintain the fiction that the State exists. If you can prove the State of France exists as a physical entity I will be mightily impressed
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>> All nation states exist purely in the human imagination. They are not physical entities
They exist on the ground too, with fixed borders. It isn't the only one, but that is a substantive difference from something that has no borders, no institutions and no cultural unity.
This is a somewhat sterile argument. We have different conceptions of what constitutes a 'state'. I think mine is more grown-up, you think yours is. Let's not go on quibbling over details. Gets boring that.
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I've no wish to quibble and I understand perfectly what you understand to be a State and indeed I believe it would be in no one in the free world's interest to recognise Islamic State as a state but that in a way prove my argument. States exist because we deem them to exist and that is a fairly fundamental thing that should be understood.
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>> I understand perfectly what you understand to be a State
I didn't suspect you of not understanding CGN!
'Free world' eh? Now there's a flexible concept for you... but Isil or whatever is a threat to everyone on the planet and anything human, inside or outside the free world, however that is defined.
It's an exercise in pure malevolence, born of envy, ignorance, superstition and gross cultural and social deprivation.
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The "State" is like political correctness, it only exists in the mind. But states have an address, which is handy if you want to drop something unpleasantly explosive on them.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 5 Feb 15 at 16:32
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They might have an address but the state doesn't die if the address is blown up. They ar immortal in that sense However if we all deem them to no longer a state ceases to be. Where is Yugoslavia now? They can be created literally at will. We almost made one called "Scotland" a few months back.
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>> Now this is going to sound awful, but there is no easy way to put
>> this.
>>
>> Good. Feel sorry for his family and relatives of course and its an awful way
>> to kill someone BUT
So let's get this straight.... you think it a good thing that a service man in the employ of his country's armed services is locked in a cage and burned alive?
You are right it does sound awful. More than that, somewhat deranged.
>>
>> Jordans actions were inexcusable, you don't join a war alliance to kill people, in the
>> name of defeating inhumane terror, and then offer to release a convicted bomber to get
>> your combatant back.
You live in a dream world. Jordan has joined an international coalition ..to combat terrorists. That means actually doing something, not just talking about it or wringing your hands and hope the nasty men don't do anything else.
I agree that bartering with terrorists is not a very good idea.
The cobblers you post about not joining in...the alternative? Do you really think people like ISIL will respect restraint?
They need to be trodden on...like a cockroach.
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>> They need to be trodden on...like a cockroach
A word of caution. The present mess in Iraq is largely down to the crushing of the previous cockroach, Saddam Hussein. It's only on last 12 months that it's become apparent that those trying to crush the cockroach Assad were merely cockroaches themselves.
Plucky freedom fighters was the previous narrative.
Doing something is certainly necessary but but needs to be very well planned if it doesn't play into hands of ISIS or the groups into which it could splinter.
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>> A word of caution. The present mess in Iraq is largely down to the crushing
>> of the previous cockroach, Saddam Hussein. It's only on last 12 months that it's become
>> apparent that those trying to crush the cockroach Assad were merely cockroaches themselves.
>>
>> Plucky freedom fighters was the previous narrative.
>>
>> Doing something is certainly necessary but but needs to be very well planned if it
>> doesn't play into hands of ISIS or the groups into which it could splinter.
>>
Don't disagree with anything you say.
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>> it's become
>> apparent that those trying to crush the cockroach Assad were merely cockroaches themselves.
>>
>> Plucky freedom fighters was the previous narrative.
Saddam wasn't a cockroach and neither is Assad. You can't just stamp on those people, it takes serious military ability to deal with them.
The people fighting Assad at present are a ghastly mishmash of cockroaches and good guys. I don't fancy their chances against a second-generation tyranny. Hafez was a seriously beastly, but efficient fellow, and so is his innocent-looking sprog. These Islamist halfwits help to make it easy for people like that.
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Jordanian Pilot - Zero
