www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-25741005
The video is worth watching if one has an ounce of feeling.
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Duly green thumbed. I heard Debbie Purdy's last interview on radio tonight while driving bak from shops.
It wasn't that she wanted to die, just that she didn't want to live in state to which MS condemned her.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 29 Dec 14 at 21:19
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A good friend lost his wife to that form of MS a few years ago; it's a horrible way to exist.
I have no wish to be kept alive artificially where there is no hope of recovery to a meaningful existence. I'd far prefer life in my years to years in my life. My mind was made up on this score by the experience of watching my much-loved aunt suffer after a debilitating stroke; from being a vital, active woman with a zest for life, she became totally dependent on medical care. Tis often said that we would not allow our pets to live like that, a sentiment with which I wholly agree.
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I think the moral difficulty we get ourselves tied up in arises because of the modern
desire to hand over all decision-making to the state and the force of law.
I'm sure in the past doctors, carers and families took these decisions for themselves, answered to their own consciences, and made more or less humane decisions reasonably sheltered by a custom of blind-eye turning.
Nowadays everything has to be regulated, and there will be busybodies and journalists ready to pounce on any apparent breaches of the law.
Collectively we wished for the nanny state from cradle to the grave, and now we have got it.
So every last detail of commonsense and humanity has to be regulated, so of course unreconcilable beliefs can no longer be fudged.
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>>I'm sure in the past doctors, carers and families took these decisions for themselves
>>, answered to their own consciences, and made more or less humane decisions
>> reasonably sheltered by a custom of blind-eye turning.
>>
As in " I will give him/her something to make them more comfortable"
Years ago the doctors decision was not often queried.
These days as, you may have noticed, it is " what would you like to do" thus the doctor has taken the CYA approach and who can blame them..
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A view from the Guardian:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/30/debbie-purdy-death-legalise-assisted-dying-lord-falconer-bill
Tend to agree that Charlie Falconer's bill should be given a fair wind. It won't happen in an election year though.
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Wise words Cliff. There is also another angle and that is the compensation culture.
The issue is though that maverick Carers and Doctors may make that decision too early and for their own convenience. Throw someone in like Shipman and everyone runs scared.
Just slightly off tangent but a similar theme. I was watching the news the other night and a spokesperson for A&E Doctors somewhere was complaining about the amount of drunks in their departments particularly at weekends and that the Police should deal with their drunken behaviour under existing laws. Good in principle but for the very reasons above the Police have steered away from having drunks in cells and they end up at hospital. There was a time when the cells were full of comatose drunks who slept it off. Then you get the occasional one who is either ill or suffered an undetected injury (in drink). Result, custody staff run scared and prisoner ends up in A&E. Its a vicious circle revolving around harris covering.
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Sorting the drink thing out is all down to education from an early age.
As for the town centre Tarts and Twosssers on a Friday night, just round 'em up and cage them on the street. After a couple of bouts of hypothermia I doubt they'll do it again. :-0)
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There's also risk of drunks becoming asphyxiated on their own vomit. If that happens in the police station.......
Another aspect in A&E is injuries acquired due to effects of intoxication. Trips/slips, injuries incurred in drunken games of Rugby or British Bulldogs (a former colleague's former boyfriend ended up at a London A&E in those circs) and of course the inevitable fisticuffs.
Those who end up in A&E are accompanied by equally drunken mates or worse by their assailants/victims.
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During one visit to A & E the BiB came in with an elderly drunk.
They sat with him for a while but then left him. Eventually he got up and tottered out the door only to reappear blood splattered having maybe fallen over or collided with something. When we left our treatment bay he was still being stitched up.
Obviously no spare A & E staff to baby sit him.
I have no answers.
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Although slinging drunks in the cells is no longer regarded as desirable, it doesn't follow that there should be no sanctions.
People have always got drunk and incapable, but I don't think it was commonly a target as it seems to be now. I go into town centres late night/early morning infrequently, but even passing through genteel Berkhamsted recently there were numbers of young people literally falling about. According to the boss, who knows more about what people get up to than I do, they commonly don't go out until the pubs are closing and they have often "pre-loaded", not with a lager or two but with hard stuff.
It's a health risk for sure, and maybe becomes a mental illness for some at a certain point - I've always thought alcoholics should get more/better help - but making it clearer that it is not acceptable public behaviour to set out to get drunk and incapable sounds worth doing to me.
We let our two (think they could) drink what they wanted from about 12, but made sure they knew the risks - neither drinks much now.
Not sure what it has to do with assisted dying. Any fool can see the problem with that - people being encouraged to "do the sensible thing" or even having it done for them by relatives, in far greater numbers than happens now.
It's hard to argue with peoples' right to do themselves in, but I don't think it should be mixed up with doctoring and nursing.
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>> It's hard to argue with peoples' right to do themselves in, but I don't think
>> it should be mixed up with doctoring and nursing.
There are no practical reasons why the terminally ill should no be allowed, or assisted, to die if that is their rationally arrived at decision. All the talk of "protection" for the vulnerable or weak is guff, practical workable safeguards can easily be put in place.
Its time the holier than thou noisy moral minority was ignored in this respect.
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>>I have no answers.
Simples. When you are intoxicated you and only you are responsible for what happens to you. Not the police. Not the doctors. Not your best pal.
If you collapse in a cell on your own vomit the police should not be held accountable.
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"I'm sure in the past doctors, carers and families took these decisions for themselves, answered to their own consciences, and made more or less humane decisions reasonably sheltered by a custom of blind-eye turning."
Wise words indeed.
My Mum died of cancer within a couple of months of being diagnosed.
My brother, sister and I all lived a couple of hundred miles away and had been visiting frequently.
We then got a phone call from Dad saying Doctor X says get here quickly. Doctor X had been a great friend of Mum and Dad for about 40 years.
Within a few hours of us all getting there Mum was dead. Doctor X was there even though middle of the night.
Co-incidence? Maybe. But maybe not - if she had lived longer the drugs would have not been enough to kill (?) the pain.
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Midwives used to take certain decisions themselves as well.
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I think assisted dying to a certain degree has happened for a long time. Especially with cancer victims. The pain relief needed means a little more will end their suffering. I'm talking about the terminal cancer patients. Happened to someone I know last year. Family called and then the nurse said she needed to give an injection... and they drifted off.
Sad time here at the moment. My wife's mother passed away yesterday afternoon :-( I think peacefully in her sleep on the sofa (but she had a few ailments that we knew of). We were called by my father in law and rushed around because he couldn't wake her up. Tried CPR until ambulance arrived.
So now in that horrible limbo of needing death certification to organise things. Could be two weeks.
And if any one has experience of executor of a will recently I might like to request some advice - not on the forum though. She is survived by her husband so I guess most things transfer. But there are shares, pensions, ISAs, a house, etc as well as shared account(s).
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>>And if any one has experience of executor of a will recently I might like to request some advice>>
I found the steps needed to be taken quite straightforward, but it was made easier by the fact I had all the documentation necessary.
Takes about six to eight weeks to complete. The person acting as executor should make sure to obtain several copies of the death certificate as this makes dealing with financial and other institutions very much easier.
I also found the probate service staff to be extremely helpful.
Links such as:
www.ageuk.org.uk/money-matters/legal-issues/dealing-with-an-estate/
will also be of assistance.
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Thanks Bobby and Stuartli.
From my quick look online it seemed straightforward. I am still not sure about certain aspects because presumably it all passes to the husband (I've seen a copy of the will). But I guess things like shares need selling, ISA funds transferring (it's not April 2015 unfortunately).
Good tip on getting more copies of death certificate.
I've had a quick look at the piles of paperwork she kept. Knowing if that covers all the money is the thing. I hope there's an 'index' of where the money is. My copy of my will at home has details of all the accounts and places my money is with it (with regularly updated values). Now think I need to plan more. But you tend not to think of needing that.
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Phil I do believe the scenario you portray there is not uncommon.
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>> Phil I do believe the scenario you portray there is not uncommon.>>
Been discreetly conducted for decades and, in the cases I've known, rightly so.
Most of us don't let our animals suffer unnecessarily and nor should we do so with our fellow human beings if at all possible and for acceptable reasons.
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And I think that's why there has maybe been such an outcry about assisted dying from existing medical people - if it ain't broke don't fix it etc etc
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I presume it would be safe to say that 'assistance' would be less forthcoming once one has 'gone public'.
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>> I presume it would be safe to say that 'assistance' would be less forthcoming once one has 'gone public'.
Exactly. If you're in pain, and dying anyway... they can legally give you pain killers. Too much morphine will unfortunately stop you breathing. But if you need more pain killers that surely is allowed.
The grey area is when someone is not quite so ill but certainly suffering, as in the case referred to at the top of the thread.
I think it should be allowed personally.
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Me ole mam was taken in with what I thought was a dissecting aortic aneurism...24 hrs to live.
We sat and held her hand while she snored her crust off on the Monday morning, she was on morphine. At lunchtime we decided to go home, only a mile, and have a wash and a sandwich.
We walked through the door and the phone was ringing to say she'd gone. Co-incidence ? Probably not.
She went peacefully with dignity and no pain...............as things should be ! 20 yrs at the end of January.
Sorry to hear about your loss Rob........keep busy...that's the answer.
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We knew she had an aortic aneurism (originally being monitored). Found through another scan. But she didn't want the op. Years later it had got a bit bigger and now other health issues meant any op not possible.
I've done some searching and I do think it might be this. And she knew. But this was at home. I still feel awful thinking I had to try CPR. In front of my wife (her daughter) and her husband.
More dreadful things to come for her. I wish I could find a way to stop that for all. She either did from this or her failing heart.
But if she knew it was this... we should have been there. I'm upset to think we might have tried to save her. But could we have instead just said goodbye? No way of knowing.
Sorry forum I am upset and babbling. And I can't share some of my feeling with closest family as I might upset them even more!
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 30 Dec 14 at 22:53
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>> Sorry forum I am upset and babbling. And I can't share some of my feeling with closest family as I might upset them even more!
Don't apologise rtj. You have good reason to be upset after all. The CPR must have been distressing, but it could have worked. You had to try, and your mother-in-law's death isn't your fault.
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>> but it could have worked.
It could in other circumstances. But I knew she was gone. But I did what I had to. But that was upsetting.
And I didn't respond to or apologise for responses to having a go at you, Which I apologise for now AC. I didn't respond to let it 'lie'. I was wrong in how I came across about the thread where I said you talked a 'load of nonsense' or words to that effects. But that's why we love you posting here. I had experience of a child neighbour with epilepsy through my mother being the saviour!
I think you post some great things and keep posting!
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>> And I didn't respond to or apologise for responses to having a go at you,
>> Which I apologise for now AC. I didn't respond to let it 'lie'. I was
>> wrong in how I came across about the thread where I said you talked a
>> 'load of nonsense' or words to that effects. But that's why we love you posting
>> here. I had experience of a child neighbour with epilepsy through my mother being the
>> saviour!
>>
>> I think you post some great things and keep posting!
>>
Don't apologise to him...he's at his best when everyone's having a go...;-)
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"But I did what I had to"
What more could you do?
What else could you do?
You did the right thing.
You did what you could.
Hope I could do the same if the need arose.
Doubt I would have the composure to do it.
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>> But I knew she was gone. But I did what
>> I had to. But that was upsetting.
3 or 4 years back, I came down to Devon from London for Christmas and knew my gran's sister was very unwell and her son (my 2nd cousin) was trying to manage nursing her at home .. so I offered any help I could give (not really expecting him to call if I'm honest, as he's a very independent chap).
Well he rang anyway.. and said that a district nurse had ordered a contraption that would help turn the old lady around so she wouldn't get bed sores and the nurse wouldn't do her back in trying to manually lift her... but there'd be a delay over the weekend... and could he arrange for someone to come and help move her in the mean time (i.e. the son, the nurse and someone else).
So off I went...
Well the turning bit wasn't nice, because my great aunt was obviously dying and even though I was family, I felt I was intruding... and she let out the most startlingly loud moan when we turned her over.
I left the room to give the nurse and the son some peace...then the nurse came straight out and got me as the situation was coming to and end game and maybe I could help support my cousin.
I was glad to, but it's not something I'd wish to repeat... and despite all the crap my service in the Old Bill had me see and deal with, it's different when it's family, even an old 'un whose had a damned good innings...
... and I suspect turning her over sort of helped things along.
Not nice is it.
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>>Not nice is it.
No but I feel I have some good friends here. This isn't your run of the mill forums.
So what is it? A thread for another subject, but great people here.
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>> I had experience of a child neighbour with epilepsy through my mother being the saviour!
I thought there must be something like that. Water under the bridge rtj. You're cool in my book.
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>> Sorry forum I am upset and babbling. And I can't share some of my feeling
>> with closest family as I might upset them even more!
>>
Babble as much as you like mate, there's a wide degree of life's experience on here.
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Thanks.
I am trying to find way to build a case to avoid a post mortem. I think it is inevitable. But I think it was not only aortic related but she sent out her husband out on an errand. For a prescription that was not due. And I was then phoned to see if I could pick him up to bring him back.... failed on that... drove around the roads and missed him. But maybe she assumed I'd be there when he got back.... ?
So within a 30 minute window I think she'd gone. I probably spoke to her last and her concern was for her husband.
Now how can I form an argument to stop a post mortem.... Probably not possible but I'll try.
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>> Now how can I form an argument to stop a post mortem.... Probably not possible
>> but I'll try.
>>
It always used to be the case that if a doctor can sign the death certificate i.e. state what she has died from, then there wouldn't necessarily have to be a PM.
If the GP had seen her within the last 2 weeks and could state that a known ailment would have been the cause of death...then you're O.K....if not, then a P.M. would happen.
I'm not aware that anything has changed, but I'm out of the loop nowadays.
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Westpig
That is what I understand. And based on the GP attending 2+ hours after the ambulance crew!
The police attended but the surprise was a GP did too - nobody expected that including the PC and ambulance service.
I know of the 14 day thing. The GP attending was mine (the emergency one) so we did discuss.
But I fear a process in place. But no PM is something we want. But however distressful to my wife... what do we tell her dad? Looking at two weeks for a funeral or worse.
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>> I know of the 14 day thing. The GP attending was mine (the emergency one)
>> so we did discuss.
Did the GP give any indication as to whether he/she could sign a death certificate?
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I have said this before, and it may actually have a double meaning here on this thread between the assisted dying and Rob's m-I-l.
I have heard from a large number of reliable sources that many people especially terminally ill people, "choose" to die on their own.
I first heard of this when my aunt died - my uncle had maintained a bedside vigil for the best part of a week and was finally so exhausted that he decided to go home for some uninterrupted sleep in his own bed to recharge his batteries. By the time he got home, ten mins away, he got a phone call to come straight back up and by then it was too late. Wouldn't forgive himself until it was explained to him that this was very common.
Now there are some who may say that when the patient is alone then they can be given that extra dose of painkiller etc. But in Rob's case, it may well be that she knew what was coming and didn't want her husband to witness it?
No matter what Rob, it is obvious from what you are saying that you did everything that you could and you and your wifes family will know that. Whether it was fruitless or not is irrelevant, if you hadn't tried then you would forever be thinking what if?
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You'll never prove it one way or the other, and I have no interest in doing so either but I believe George VI was given/took a rather strong Brompton Cocktail/Mixture on retiring the night before he died.
A mixture of morphine or diacetylmorphine (heroin), cocaine, ethyl alcohol (some recipes specify gin), and sometimes with chlorpromazine (Thorazine) to counteract nausea, it was given to terminally-ill individuals (especially cancer patients) to relieve pain and promote sociability near death. More on wikipedia.
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>> Brompton Cocktail/Mixture
Hmmm... a speedball plus, just the thing. I do hope they'll have a couple of those for me when the time comes. Might be an idea to source the ingredients myself actually, because many doctors are against pleasure and lousy at pain treatment.
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>> and promote sociability near death. >
>>
I'd like some of that before the office party and reunions with relatives. :)
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Even if the GP is unwilling/feels unable to complete a death certificate a post mortem is not inevitable.
A definite cause of death is not required (indeed a good portion of certified causes of death are likely not to be correct).
A post mortem tends to happen in cases of children dying, sudden and unexpected deaths, suspicious deaths, or where events have happened that could lead to culpability (eg. if someone had fallen/tripped within a few days of death and the death may have been caused/accelerated as a result).
At least in Scotland the Procurator Fiscal (who is both the prosecutor and coroner) can take advice from GPs and Pathologists and issue certificates without the need for a formal PM.
(Of course mileage may vary in England, and very much depends on circumstances)
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In the UK a post mortem is required for any "un"
Unexpected, unusual, unexplained, unsure, (except unwell maybe)
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Not always. unless things have changed. 20+ years ago when my son died aged 9 weeks he was certified as Sudden Infant Death with no post mortem. Sudden Infant Death is certainly all of your examples, mores the pity.
Bill
>> In the UK a post mortem is required for any "un"
>>
>> Unexpected, unusual, unexplained, unsure, (except unwell maybe)
>>
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>> At least in Scotland the Procurator Fiscal (who is both the prosecutor and coroner) can
>> take advice from GPs and Pathologists and issue certificates without the need for a formal
>> PM.
That I think is what happened when my father died. He hadn't been "under the doctor" but collapsed and died while on holiday in Scotland. It was fairly obvious to the two off duty nurses who tried to revive him that it was a heart attack. My mother was able to add that he had been complaining of pains in his arm for a week or so (i think he assumed it was to do with his frozen shoulder, not that he was likely to have gone to the doctor's anyway).
There was a hiatus of a few days and then we were told that a PM would be necessary .
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>> Brompton Cocktail/Mixture
I favour Nembutal, dubbed in a suicide book of the same name "The Peaceful Pill", but wonder about the effect of chemicals. Maybe one would fail to die but come round to find he was totally paralysed and it seems 30% of suicide attempts fail anyway.
What a shame the UK does not have America's enlightened gun laws. I would like to know I could pop down to the local gun shop and buy a 0.38 snub-nosed revolver, which would be much more decisive and final.
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>> I would like to know I could pop down to the local gun shop and buy a 0.38 snub-nosed revolver, which would be much more decisive and final.
I would too, but not to buy a snubnose. I just like guns.
The right overdose is the way to go. I wouldn't want my nearest and dearest, or any innocent person, to come in and see my brains all over the ceiling.
The Brompton Cocktail isn't supposed to take you out, it's to ease your departure.
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>> The right overdose is the way to go. I wouldn't want my nearest and dearest,
>> or any innocent person, to come in and see my brains all over the ceiling.
Indeed, might be final and quick but not neat and tidy at all.
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>>Indeed, might be final and quick but not neat and tidy at all
Or have the worst of both worlds, like the US 'gangsta' who put a gun to his temple and pulled the trigger.
Result: both eyes blown out and a non-fatal head injury.
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>> Or have the worst of both worlds, like the US 'gangsta' who put a gun to his temple and pulled the trigger.
Indeed. People are nervous and superstitious about firearms. They have to be pointed in the right direction to have the right effect.
Cases of messy failed pistol suicides may well result from last-moment ambivalence on the part of the would-be suicide, an impulse to not die after all. Sometimes resulting in the worst of both worlds cited by Lygonos.
Story in the comic this morning of a woman shot dead in a US supermarket by her toddler daughter reaching into her handbag and firing the pistol she had in it. Stupid and sloppy gun discipline results in many deaths every year in the US.
What kind of idiot carries a loaded pistol with the safety off and a trigger pull suitable for a toddler in an open handbag? It's beyond belief almost.
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." I would like to know I could pop down to the local gun shop and buy a 0.38 snub-nosed revolver, which would be much more decisive and final. "
No you wouldn't . If you were in a position to think the thing through and physically capable of popping down the shops to buy a gun to end it all it is highly unlikely that you would actually be suffering from an incurable illness and in such intolerable pain that taking your own life seemed the best option.
That 's the big problem. Those that are in a position to take their own life don't need to and those that want to can't.
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If necessary, I shall simply attempt to swim the Atlantic.
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>>If necessary, I shall simply attempt to swim the Atlantic.
Just keep going mountain biking with your son.......,
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>> things like shares need selling, ISA funds transferring
Ownership of shares can be transferred but it is probably simpler to sell them. ISAs can't retain income and capital gains tax exemption in new hands. Here also it may be better to sell. The holdings may not fit the survivor's needs anyway, such as setting up a fund to pay later for a care home, for example.
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>> >> Brompton Cocktail/Mixture
>>
>> I favour Nembutal, dubbed in a suicide book of the same name "The Peaceful Pill",
>> but wonder about the effect of chemicals. Maybe one would fail to die but come
>> round to find he was totally paralysed and it seems 30% of suicide attempts fail
>> anyway.
Just read part of the book you mention - some interesting ways to off oneself!
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The GP argued at some length to say what probable cause of death was. As she was not 100% and getting frailer because of the conditions. Coroner would not accept that and could not be persuaded. I even popped in to talk to someone handling the case.
I'm pretty sure it was aortic aneurism related. Symptoms like fainting and vomiting are what leads to some getting diagnosed for something they knew nothing about. Except she did.
And with all this the funeral can't be for a few weeks it seems. Nothing can change any of this.
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As someone above said, try and keep busy, but I guess that's a given. Best wishes.
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To help with practicalities, there are websites like this one:
www.bhf.org.uk/heart-matters-magazine/wellbeing/coping-with-a-death/what-to-do-when-someone-dies?gclid=COGn77S_8sICFcoBwwodw0oAWw
"What To Do If Someone Dies" is also the title of a good guide published by Which? magazine. Amazon has it (with a curious range of prices, from £35.66 to £0.01).
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Assisted Dying - Bromptonaut
