Porkers secure a historic decision in the courts.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30529791
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And the result will be: no far thinking company will recruit fatties..
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If somebody wishes to be fat, then I cannot see any reason why they should not make that choice.
I do not believe that somebody should be fired for being fat, any more than they should be fired for being a smoker.
If they cannot do their job, then they should not have that job.
But it seems inappropriate to include what is, for many, (not all, I know) a life style choice in with people who have disabilities.
Thus I believe it should be dealt with as a performance issue.
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>> I do not believe that somebody should be fired for being fat, any more than
>> they should be fired for being a smoker.
>>
As long as they are only fat in the designated areas.
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"The European Court of Justice has ruled that obesity itself is not a disability, but that the effects of it can be.
"As such, workers who suffer from, for example, joint problems, depression, or diabetes - specifically because of their size - will be protected by the European Equal Treatment Framework Directive and cannot be dismissed because of their weight."
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I can remember as a young sales rep in the very early 80s working in the posher end of the fashion industry, one of my colleagues being told to ease off on the pies because his appearance no longer fitted the company image.
He did as he was asked and nothing more was said but I did wonder if they were really allowed to do that. Maybe they were.
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>> If somebody wishes to be fat, then I cannot see any reason why they should
>> not make that choice.
You amaze me sometimes.
You have such high standards in some areas regarding the rights of other people, yet fail miserably in others.
How many large people really wish to be fat? There can be very few who actively choose this as a lifestyle choice.
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>> How many large people really wish to be fat? There can be very few who
>> actively choose this as a lifestyle choice.
There are however millions of them, who choose to do nothing about it. You can't magically grow another leg, but you can loose weight.
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>> There are however millions of them, who choose to do nothing about it. You can't
>> magically grow another leg, but you can loose weight.
>>
So you keep saying Zero.. however it is easier said than done.
For the same reason(s) that some people smoke, drink too much alcohol, take drugs, gamble, etc, etc... human beings have foibles.
Some people:
A - can virtually eat/drink what they like;
B - some can't but are able mentally to restrict what they do or take enough exercise to remain a sensible weight
C - some have great difficulty achieving B above
D - some have medical conditions that leave them fat
Now I'd agree that 'D' is well overplayed and very few people fit this criteria, but I see 'C' as being no different to a smoker/ drinker/ gambler i.e. a flaw in a human being... and I see no reason why others who do not have that particular flaw should be so damned rude and insensitive about it.
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>> Now I'd agree that 'D' is well overplayed and very few people fit this criteria,
>> but I see 'C' as being no different to a smoker/ drinker/ gambler i.e. a
>> flaw in a human being... and I see no reason why others who do not
>> have that particular flaw should be so damned rude and insensitive about it.
I never suggested it was easy, but its really not that difficult, and certainly not so difficult that if it causes you issues, you could fix it.
Not loosing weight is the easy option, damn its the pleasurable option if like me you love your food.
However if (and when - because it will) it causes me issues (other than being called a porker) I will fix it. I certainly wouldn't expect society to go out of its way for me because i was to ruddy weak willed or lazy to loose a bit of weight.
Being a tea leaf or a bully is a human flaw, you don't give them much leeway do you.
Oh I have a BMI of 29.4 - I have paid for the t shirt, carry the credentials, earned the right to be rude about fat people
I was higher, I have lost 3 kilos since the new dog arrived - Scuse me while I go and devour another 6 digestive biscuits.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 18 Dec 14 at 16:13
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>> I never suggested it was easy, but its really not that difficult, and certainly not
>> so difficult that if it cause you issues, you could fix it.
How good of you to apply your thought processes and apply them to everyone else. You know, all these people that are DIFFERENT.
How about gamblers. The Zero philosophy for stopping gambling, just don't go in the bookies, job done, problem solved.
>> Being a tea leaf or a bully is a human flaw, you don't give them
>> much leeway do you.
You are absolutely correct ... and I am like that because they impact other people so badly.
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>> How about gamblers. The Zero philosophy for stopping gambling, just don't go in the bookies,
>> job done, problem solved.
>>
We don't make special provision for gamblers and say "there there lets make life easier for you so you can carry on gambling:" do we.
Yes it takes a bit of effort to loose weight and for those that can't be bothered? - zero sympathy.
Edit, one of the answers tho tho is not to sack them. that helps no one, the country or the overweight person (see i didn't say porker)
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 18 Dec 14 at 16:22
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>> We don't make special provision for gamblers and say "there there lets make life easier
>> for you so you can carry on gambling:" do we.
I'm posting about the unpleasantness aimed at fat people and what I think is hypocrisy when it's from those that are quick to criticise in other areas.
I am ambivalent about the disability ruling.
>>
>> Yes it takes a bit of effort to loose weight and for those that can't
>> be bothered? - zero sympathy.
... and if it isn't that simple, yet you don't understand it.... still zero sympathy?
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>> ... and if it isn't that simple, yet you don't understand it.... still zero sympathy?
But it IS that simple in the majority of cases. I understand the MINORITY of cases where it isn't.
So yes zero sympathy for the majority.
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That's worth a thumb WP.
When it comes to medical causes the 'glands' sort of thing is pretty rare. Psychological causes are another kettle of fish and far more common than Z thinks. There's a whole charitable outfit, BEAT, devoted to eating disorders in all their forms.
The analogy to gambling is a good one. People who return to abusive relationships are another.
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>> The analogy to gambling is a good one. People who return to abusive relationships are
>> another.
Its a very very poor one, bordering on the ridiculous. 100% of gamblers who have issues with it, are addicted. It is psychological. Now don't you even dare to try and suggest that anything like that number of overweight people are addicted to food, that its psychological - No way jose.
The majority are fat because they can't be bothered to do anything about it.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 18 Dec 14 at 16:28
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>> The majority are fat because they can't be bothered to do anything about it.
>>
Utter tosh.
I am overweight, i'd rather not be.
I am most ordered in a lot of areas of my life, so why does this one slip through the net?
If I've managed to dodge smoking; illicit or legitimate drugs; gambling; drinking too much alcohol; I am fairly financially astute; etc, etc.... so why can I not restrict the calories and/or do more exercise?
I have no idea why I am so controlled in many areas, but not that one...but that's the way it is... and it hasn't been for the want of trying in the past. I don't bother now, because yo-yo ing makes it worse.
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>> I have no idea why I am so controlled in many areas, but not that
>> one...but that's the way it is... and it hasn't been for the want of trying
>> in the past. I don't bother now, because yo-yo ing makes it worse.
A: Does it in any way affect your life, your lifestyle, your health? is there anything you can't do or want to do because you are overweight?
I would guess the answer is no.
B: Do you enjoy your food and drink?
I would guess the answer is yes.
Given that, where is the incentive to loose weight? (apart from a little vanity)
Welcome to my boat.
Now if the answer to A: changed in any way I bet you could fix it.
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>> Given that, where is the incentive to loose weight? (apart from a little vanity)
>>
>> Welcome to my boat.
>>
>> Now if the answer to A: changed in any way I bet you could fix
>> it.
You are correct in your guesses.. and being a man aged over 50, the vanity side of it isn't that great... however you don't see all that many old fat people and I have young children, so that ought to provide an incentive... but doesn't or not enough.
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>>and being a man aged over 50, the vanity
>> side of it isn't that great... however you don't see all that many old fat
>> people
You don't see many old fat people because they die early.
>> and I have young children, so that ought to provide an incentive... but doesn't
>> or not enough.
leads me back to the question, is there anything you can't do with your kids because you are fat?
If the answer is no, there is the lack of incentive. Its quite possible to be fit* and fat. At 60 years of age and 4 stone overweight I was recently jogging down the beach to catch an errant dog.
*Ok I am not going to be doing a marathon any time soon, but hey!
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>>You don't see many old fat people because they die early.
True - I have been known to 'encourage' patients who need a gentle reminder about looking after themselves: "In the past 15 years I've seen more and more patients still well in their 80s and even 90s. None of them are 18 stone."
Or words to that effect.
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>> True - I have been known to 'encourage' patients who need a gentle reminder about
>> looking after themselves: "In the past 15 years I've seen more and more patients still
>> well in their 80s and even 90s. None of them are 18 stone."
My grandmother was a big old bird and she lasted until she was 96... and I'm convinced lasted a couple of months longer than she would have because there was enough 'reserves', as her appetite by then had gone.
I'd concede though that she was very much the exception to the rule.
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>>My grandmother was a big old bird and she lasted until she was 96... and I'm convinced lasted a couple of months longer than she would have because there was enough 'reserves'
Unusual (but not entirely unheard of) for very overweight people to get into their 90s - often they have a raft of problems with circulation/diabetes/joints. Most of my over 85 obese patients spend the lion's share of the day sitting with their feet up.
You are correct about the 'lasting longer' bit - it's beneficial to have a little reserve when you are 75+ rather than being underweight.
The reality of course boils down to probabilities - I've had patients smoke til they were 90 with little evidence of harm (very very rare - they're usually screwed cardiovascularly by then even if their lungs dodge the emphysema), and fit guys have strokes in their 20s.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 18 Dec 14 at 17:47
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Lygonos Thanks for the reality checks.
I have just had an incentive to take action on weight/ diet.
Angina ! Stents to come and in the meanwhile certainly all Christmas activity binned.
My outlook has suddenly changed now I need to act.
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Where did I use the words 'addicted to food'? It's a psychological issue. The late Princess of Wales was at the extreme end of the spectrum but in milder iterations it's more common than you think.
I'm on a carp connection in France ATM using a DNS server that says 'ptui' to anglo connections but I'll post some links when back in UK.
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>> Where did I use the words 'addicted to food'? It's a psychological issue. The late
>> Princess of Wales was at the extreme end of the spectrum but in milder iterations
>> it's more common than you think.
>>
>> I'm on a carp connection in France ATM using a DNS server that says 'ptui'
>> to anglo connections but I'll post some links when back in UK.
Don't bother, you are still only referring to the minority of cases. There is no way, no way on earth you can relate the majority of overweight cases to the fact its psychological.
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>> Don't bother, you are still only referring to the minority of cases. There is no
>> way, no way on earth you can relate the majority of overweight cases to the
>> fact its psychological.
It's a bigger minority than you think, probably more of them women then men. The point is they might be those most deserving of help.
As you also point out the reported case is likely to be fact specific. It relates to a Danish man employed as a childminder and to his treatment under Danish law but as it's an EU court there's presumably an issue with Denmark's application of directives.
Time and study by lawyers will tell us if it has any real world application in UK; speculation based on press reports is good for pub talk but not much else.
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>> Don't bother, you are still only referring to the minority of cases. There is no
>> way, no way on earth you can relate the majority of overweight cases to the
>> fact its psychological.
It's a bigger minority than you think, probably more of them women then men. The point is they might be those most deserving of help.
As you also point out the reported case is likely to be fact specific. It relates to a Danish man employed as a childminder and to his treatment under Danish law but as it's an EU court there's presumably an issue with Denmark's application of directives.
Time and study by lawyers will tell us if it has any real world application in UK; speculation based on press reports is good for pub talk but not much else.
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>> earned the right to be rude about fat people <<
No you haven't.
That isn't a right that can be earned.
There is no such thing as a 'right to be rude'.
It's quite simply just 'rude'.
Pat
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>> >> earned the right to be rude about fat people <<
>>
>> No you haven't.
>> That isn't a right that can be earned.
Yes it is A porker can call another a porker.
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>> Yes it is A porker can call another a porker.
>>
Would that be the same as a black man calling another black man the 'n' word?...or should we consider that word offensive and just not use it at all?
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>> Would that be the same as a black man calling another black man the 'n'
>> word?..
yes, they call it "reclaiming the word"
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>> Would that be the same as a black man calling another black man the 'n' word?
You must know that they often do just that, Wp. It's all a matter of context.
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>> You must know that they often do just that, Wp. It's all a matter of
>> context.
>>
To Zero and AC,
Agreed.... but I'm not sure it's wise to have some allowed to use it and not others.
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>> I'm not sure it's wise to have some allowed to use it and not others.
Anyone can use it, with or without due care and consideration. It has a risky side that keeps life interesting. However when you cause offence, you'd better be able to explain yourself without causing further offence. This can be difficult or even impossible.
Of course if you intend to cause offence you're probably a racist or another sort of carphound.
There's another level to this actually. Racial epithets, like swearwords, are intrinsically offensive. If you use them, as I have often done, to add flavour to what you are saying, you have to be prepared for people not getting it and coming on po-faced at you. I suspect many people think eff blind nword pword etc but don't utter the words to avoid all of that. And perhaps they are right. But you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
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>>
>> For the same reason(s) that some people smoke, drink too much alcohol, take drugs, gamble,
>> etc, etc.
Are they disabilities too?
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>> There are however millions of them, who choose to do nothing about it. You can't
>> magically grow another leg, but you can loose weight.
>>
However much this might offend some of you, I agree with this.
As most of you will be aware, I've recently gone through a 3 month period of enforced idleness; more to the point, not been able to do as much as I usually do. The most noticeable side-effect was when I put a pair of work trousers on, which I hadn't worn for about three months, and they were distinctly tighter around the waist. Couple of weeks back at work, probably a combination of less snacking due to boredom and the physical exercise which goes with my particular type of lorry driving, and I'm pretty much back to where I was.
Point of this being, keeping your weight within reasonable limits is not difficult for most people. The actual physical work I do is not particularly demanding compared to what it was before I had the advantage of a lorry-mounted forklift to take the strain, but it still entails on average shifting a ton or two of 25 kilo bags of feed by hand every day, and the walking that goes with it; added to the rest of the job it probably adds up to what Lygonos would consider adequate exercise for a healthy man in his mid-fifties, without being particularly demanding or strenuous.
I should add to this that I eat what may well be considered unhealthy foods; white bread, butter, meat and cooked breakfasts, a fair number of ready meals, and I do eat fruit but certainly not five a day. Drinking tends to be a decent session once every three weeks on average, job restrictions preclude it on weekdays; and I use e-cigs though smoked for forty years prior to that.
The problems come when people are, to put it bluntly, not just fat but idle too; and that IMO is mainly because life today is made far too easy. Everything you could ever need can be delivered to your door for next to nothing, there is no incentive beyond the preaching of health professionals (no offence Lygonos but i'm sure you know what i mean) to actually get off one's backside and do anything, and even if you don't watch daytime TV all day there's plenty of stuff on your i-phone to keep you occupied.
As far as work is concerned; back in the days of steam, the standing joke amongst railwaymen was that you never saw a fat fireman. Modern Elf and Safety regulations may have made peoples' working lives a lot safer and healthier and that has to be a good thing; but the downside to this is that work is also much less physically demanding, and my job must be one of the few nowadays which has its own built-in physical workout. If of course you don't have a job, you don't even get that; and no amount of government-issued gym vouchers is likely to change it.
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>> However much this might offend some of you, I agree with this.
Couldn't argue with a word you said.
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Agreed. Although my occupation now is sedentary. (Well I suppose it always was). I do busy myself at home. I find winter time the worst. Summer I'm out and about doing this and that, keeping on top of the garden - that sort of thing. Winter, its dark all the time. Mooching about the house opening and closing the fridge door. Constant attacks of the munchies.
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>>You amaze me sometimes.
Whereas you amze me never.
In particular your ability to read does not amaze.
"If somebody wishes to be fat,"
See that *IF* there ?? That means *IF* somebody wishes to be fat. *IF*!! Get it *IF*!!
then follows....
*THEN* I cannot see... blah blah.
Did you get that *IF*.... *THEN* !!!
So *IF* they do *NOT* wish to be fat *THEN* the rest does not apply.
Jeez.
And do you understand that difference between *WISH* to be fat and *CHOOSE* to be fat?
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>> And do you understand that difference between *WISH* to be fat and *CHOOSE* to be
>> fat?
>>
Are you for real?
Who the hell would wish to be fat?
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 22 Dec 14 at 01:18
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>> seekcartoon.com/watch/26143-the-simpsons-season-7-episode-7-king-size-homer.html#.VJNakcLweA
I don't need to watch that, I know it, its a cracker.
The grease stain is your window to weight gain!
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"Who is that gastropod, Smithers?"
"He's one of your chair moisteners from sector 7G, sir"
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DOH! stupid nodding bird!
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.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 19 Dec 14 at 00:37
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>>Porkers <<
I'm not a vegetarian, I'm not fat, but personally I find that term more offensive than any of the perceived insults that some get accused of on here.
...and yes, the scowly face was from me along with an explanation for it.
Pat
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>> I'm not a vegetarian, I'm not fat, but personally I find that term more offensive
>> than any of the perceived insults that some get accused of on here.
Couldn't agree more.
Why would one human being wish to be so rude and inconsiderate with regards another?
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>> Why would one human being wish to be so rude and inconsiderate with regards another?
I am several stone over weight, and I have no issue with someone calling me a salad dodger, a porker, who ate all the pies, lardass, etc etc.
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>> I am several stone over weight, and I have no issue with someone calling me
>> a salad dodger, a porker, who ate all the pies, lardass, etc etc.
>>
Neither do I if said in jest, a bit of banter, meant lightheartedly... but I would if I thought they meant it.
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The truth of the matter is that that specific ruling is so couched in "maybe" terms that it is impossible to take any guidance from it.
For example if someone is so fat they don't fit the work chairs, you don't have to make provision for them.
If however they are so fat they get disabling effects, like mobility issues, you do have to make provision for them.
If someone is morbidly obese and works behind the counter in Greggs the bakers you can sack them for being fat because they portray a bad image of the company, if they are morbidly fat and can't stand up you can't sack them and have to provide them with a seat.
Clearly its a ruling that a"needs to be challenged and b: revised
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The Ignorance-ometer is quite high in this thread.
Overweight/Obesity (say BMI 25-35) in most cases is a lifestyle issue, however morbid obesity on the other hand is more frequently better viewed as an eating disorder: an inappropriate reaction to very poor self esteem (almost on a par with deliberate self harm) or an inappropriate coping mechanism for negative issues such as stress or childhood trauma.
The fact someone is very fat sets off alarm bells in my head that they are miserable/trying to self-treat their misery.
In the same way that a drink-drive conviction makes me consider alcohol problems (perhaps stemming from similar poor coping skills/self loathing) a possibility - a second DD conviction makes it a probability.
As usual there's a Venn diagram at play with multiple overlaps.
The whole Disability Discrimination Act stuff tries its best, but ultimately is too simplistic to deal with the nuances of disability - the fatty in the OP story says he has no difficulty doing his usual job, and therefore he is NOT disabled, and cannot expect the DDA to apply.
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>> - the fatty in the OP story
You can get a scowly face for using words like that.
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Yes, and you're walking a fine line towards getting one at the moment too.
Pat
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I was a normal shape, size and weight, even a bit gaunt-looking a couple of years ago. Then one day I had an instant paunch. I broke 6 vertebrae and lost 4cm in height. Whatever squashed vertically gains girth around the middle. Try it with a plastecine ball.
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>>I broke 6 vertebrae
I warned you that would happen if you tried doing it to yourself.
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By wife says she didn't notice when I lost 4 cm...
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>> By wife says she didn't notice when I lost 4 cm...
nothing left then?
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Lucky for her I can touch my nose with my tongue.
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>> Lucky for her I can touch my nose with my tongue.
yeah, saves her going to the shops to get tissues I guess.
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Overheard in BBD's boudoir:
"Ha! Who do you expect to satisfy with that?"
"Me"
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OK, I withdraw the term "porkers". Is obese OK? If not what is the politically correct term to describe fat people?
.
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>> If not what is the politically
>> correct term to describe fat people?
>> .
>>
Fat people.
If it's ok to describe me as a thin person, then why not as fat is the opposite of thin? Anyone who is offended by that should either man up or eat less.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Thu 18 Dec 14 at 19:49
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>> If it's ok to describe me as a thin person,
You are a londoner, you know the phrase "lanky streak of ----"
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 22 Dec 14 at 01:18
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>> OK, I withdraw the term "porkers". Is obese OK? If not what is the politically
>> correct term to describe fat people?
You are such a trouble maker.
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I dislike all these horrible terms for obese people. I prefer to say 'overweight'.
Except when they're wearing sweatpants and carrying a pie, I call them dobbers.
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>> I dislike all these horrible terms for obese people. I prefer to say 'overweight'.
>>
>> Except when they're wearing sweatpants
Muffin tops.
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I read somewhere, or I think I did, that eating, drinking alcohol, smoking, sex and excercise all release the same "happy hormones"
Endorphins or something.
Guess the trick is to do more of the last two and less of the first three.
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Depends how far you have to walk to the pub. Jog there, stagger back. Being a bit niffy in between the two could easily offend, although I am sure many of 'Spoons clients in their trackie bottoms have not jogged there.
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and where does the nookie take place? in the spoons? on the way there or on the way back?
or while you are having a fag out the back?
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However, Tam Fry, from the National Obesity Forum, said the ruling had opened a can of worms...
"Excuse me while I make some toast," he said.
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>> However, Tam Fry, from the National Obesity Forum, said the ruling had opened a can
>> of worms...
>>
>> "Excuse me while I make some toast," he said.
Yes - clearly he is referring to what every kid called them
Heinz tinned spaghetti in tomato sauce.
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No, the bits in Marmalade are worms.
That's what my Dad told me and why I have never eaten it.
Pat
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Nope: thick bits of peel in chunky marmalade are referred to as " railway or tram lines"
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I'm FAT. PORKY.
I just love food. (Made some home-made sausages today)
I do not smoke (40 years sober, Guv).
If I never have another alcoholic drink it would not bovver me.
I like sitting around doing nowt much (or zizzing).
I'm 79 today.
Should I start saving up for a one-way trip to Dignitas?
Seriously - when I had my own business and was recruiting for clerical help, I made damn sure that the person I employed was past CBA.
I could not afford maternity pay, plus wages for a replacement.
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"I'm FAT. PORKY.
I just love food. (Made some home-made sausages today)
I do not smoke (40 years sober, Guv).
If I never have another alcoholic drink it would not bovver me.
I like sitting around doing nowt much (or zizzing).
I'm 79 today.
Should I start saving up for a one-way trip to Dignitas?"
As far as I'm concerned, at age 79, you can do what the heck you like and be whatever shape you like, drink what you like and eat what you like (home-made sausages sound good)!!!
As for Dignitas, forget it - what you should be planning is getting to 80 and celebrating with a big fat (!) cigar and a few glasses of red followed by a glass of best quality malt as a nightcap!
I would - come to think of it, might do that now in case (pretty certain!) I don't reach 79 or 80.
Just hope I've enough brain cells left if I get there to remember to do that! Have told Mrs W that if I lose the brain cells to do that, pour enough malt down my throat so it looks like alcohol poisoning!
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Trouble is, where can you find a food bank with a good selection of single malts ?
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>>> I'm 79 today.
Happy birthday you sprauncy porky old whassername. Your colleague Bob Marley, another acquaintance of mine and a charming chap, left us much younger.
Happy Christmas too of course if any of us are spared.
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Happy birthday also Armel one day late.My mother was born on the 19th Dec.
Brave lady in WW2 Some stories I heard about her.
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I may be wrong but I think it's Roger who celebrated on Friday.
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>> it's Roger who celebrated on Friday.
Yes it's the Rastaman, not me. I hope it was a good blast. He seems a jolly cat.
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I,m not surprised so many people are overweight,the temptation to overeat is so great.
Up to the age of 40 I was fine around 13 stone fine for my height lightbuild just over six feet.
After 40 started to eat to much but most off my live I have worked outdoors in all kinds of weather.Food is often a comfort and I like good food.After the big operation part of my stomach was used.
I;ve gone back to about twelve and a halve stone.I eat often and small portions don't drink alcohol anymore and must admit feel better for it.If it wasn't for the operation I problaby would still be around 16 stone and still drinking to much alcohol.
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The fat end of the wedge - madf
