In Spanish there is a description attached to a person - "el Subordinante".
This is *not* the subordinate.
An illustration:
If John is "el Subordinante" then Peter would be "el Subordinado".
Thus Peter is the subordinate, and John is the person that Peter is subordinate to.
Is there a word for "el Subordinante" in English that anybody can suggest?
Superior, higher person, boss, etc. etc. don't really fit.
|
You mean the Spanish works a bit like lessor/lessee?
Cannot think of anything in English except senior.
|
What's wrong with 'subordinator'?
Seniority is a passive condition. In the word subordinante there's more than a suggestion of volition: he may be an overbearing carphound clawing his way to the top in some horrible corporate setup. But of course he may be a perfectly innocent person who's been appointed subordinante by some übersubordinante further up the tree. There's a lot of variety in life.
|
Manager and Assistant/Deputy/Acting Manager?
Edmund and Baldrick?
;-)
|
In a work context the jargon might be 'line manager' or 'supervisor' which avoids the sense of superior vs. inferior.
If not the subordinate's actual boss, then 'senior' might be the nearest.
Searching for antonyms to subordinate throws up the senior/superior sense, but also the 'insubordinate' sense which is not quite the same thing.
Amongst the synonyms for insubordinate is the marvellous word 'contumacious' which I learnt years ago from a Patrick O'Brian book; I've been forgetting to use it. Must give it an outing for Christmas.
|
The Spanish...
Esta independencia del salinero en el ámbito económico y social, y su conformación como clase social, no se ajusta a la estructura clásica que ha establecido previa a la reforma agraria, la historiografÃa tradicional, que reconoce como clases sociales: la oligarquÃa terrateniente; los trabajadores apatronados y los campesinos independientes afuerinos.
El salinero en términos de modo de vida, era el subordinante frente a los otros modos complementarios de: agricultor, jornalero u otros. Fue precisamente ese rol subordinante, el que les permitió la generación de ahorros y su posterior movilidad social.
My English..
This independence for the salt workers in the economic and social environment, and its shaping as a social class, does not fit the classic and traditional structure that had been established prior to the agricultural reform which recognized as social classes; the landed oligarchy, employed workers and itinerant farm workers.
The salt worker, in terms of lifestyle, was [the senior or higher person ???] in comparison with the other complementary roles of farmer, laborer and others. It was precisely this [ high level ????] role, which allowed the generation of savings and subsequent social mobility.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 9 Dec 14 at 15:46
|
|
Some variation on status might do the job. Alternatively, if the key to the salt worker's position was income then could the point be expressed using that rather than a senior/junior analogy?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 9 Dec 14 at 15:51
|
The key is not income, although that is part of it, its really about position in the social and economic hierarchy.
So "status" is definitely the point, but with subordinate there is an act, effect or intention involved, as I think AC said.
This is work belonging to a good friend's son who for his university course he has to present a summary of his thesis in English. Since its a university course aimed at wannabe journalists, I don't really understand the connection. But friends are friends.
|
That's Google translate that is. :-)
How about "advantaged" and Advantage?
|
>>That's Google translate that is. :-)
Oh nooo its not. Google Translate is brilliant for odd words. Its even pretty good for phrases, and I use it a lot.
But for whole or complex sentences, then it falls flat on its face.
|
>> But for whole or complex sentences, then it falls flat on its face.
I find it really rather amusing.
|
OP version
This independence for the salt workers in the economic and social environment, and its shaping as a social class, does not fit the classic and traditional structure that had been established prior to the agricultural reform which recognized as social classes; the landed oligarchy, employed workers and itinerant farm workers.
The salt worker, in terms of lifestyle, was [the senior or higher person ???] in comparison with the other complementary roles of farmer, laborer and others. It was precisely this [ high level ????] role, which allowed the generation of savings and subsequent social mobility.
Google version
This independence of salt in the economic and social sphere, and its conformation as social class, does not fit the classic structure that has been established prior to land reform , traditional historiography , which recognizes as social classes: the landed oligarchy ; apatronados workers and peasants independent outsiders .
The salt in terms of lifestyle , was the subordinating compared with other complementary modes : farmer , laborer or others. It was precisely this subordinating role , which allowed the generation of savings and subsequent social mobility.
It's Google and I claim my £5! :-)
|
|
If those two look the same to you, then you need a consultant and I claim my £100.
|
>> The salt in terms of lifestyle
Apart from a need to add the worker after salt.... I think Google's version read better. Sorry No FM2R.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 9 Dec 14 at 22:03
|
>> I think Google's version read better. Sorry No FM2R.
Oh it doesn't bother me one way or the other, as long as friend's son is happy. Translating is a pig awful job, especially on a subject about which I know nothing and care little.
But I'm surprised that you understood the Google version;
Like, "social sphere", "traditional historiography", "apatronados workers", " was the subordinating" and so much more.
It may have read better, but I don't think it actually made sense.
|
It made as much sense as your version to be honest.
I learned when at school that literal translation was pointless. I went to a Welsh school so translating French to Welsh (or vice-versa) and similarly for German to Welsh could not be done if you had to refer to dictionaries and then find the English to Welsh dictionary was needed as well :-) But you could take short cuts when you knew the gist of a topic.
Now anyone else apart from me impressed with Word Lens. Apparently it will be in Google Translate soon.
|
>> I learned when at school that literal translation was pointless.
What rtj? Au contraire: the closer a translation is to absolutely literal - and correct of course - while reading decently, the better it is as a translation. The most difficult aspect is perfect understanding of the original text. The next most difficult is expressing meaning when the original doesn't really have one in the second language.
I really, really know what I'm talking about here. FMR thinks translating is torture, the impatient, xenophobic fellow... To me it's a crossword puzzle for a literate person (rather than the sort of ocd knowall who likes real crosswords), a puzzle for grownups, with a useful solution.
Actually herself does the crossword in the paper, and she isn't an ocd knowall. My old man did crosswords too. Perhaps I'm just too idle to do them... they seem pointless, so I can't be bothered, while people pay me good money to translate forbidding text, so I find it absorbing.
|
>>It made as much sense as your version to be honest.
Don't worry, it was quite difficult.
>>I learned when at school that literal translation was pointless.
Well now, that kind of depends. And it depends both on the style and type of source material and the desired understanding.
Between similarly structured languages it can be much more useful than otherwise. I cannot imagine that translating between German, English and Welsh results in much sense at all.
Whereas, for example, between Portuguese and Spanish it makes a lot of sense. In fact, in a contract, it may be the only way to go.
Interpretation can be quite dangerous, especially if one is unaware how the document has been interpreted.
As for Word Lens, I hadn't heard of it before. It certainly sounds interesting, I shall give it a go if I can.
|
>>Word Lens
Just installed it and tried it.
Essentially if you point the phone camera at written text it attempts to translate it but retain the same display - so a road sign will still appear the same but the words would be in a different language.
It doesn't work very well on bodies of text, it is literal translation, and it gets confused quite easily, but I am sure it will improve.
Its very clever indeed, I'm impressed. Mind you, I am not sure exactly how useful it is at this stage, but I can only imagine how it could be if it worked perfectly and was fully integrated with Google Glass, it could be a whole new world.
|
I'm sat in the car translating road signs, supermarket receipts and a credit card bill and bits of No 2's school books.
I still have no idea how I can get real value out of it, but its pretty damn neat.
|
I think it's only aimed at signs etc. Not for translating bodies of text. I've not found much real use for it if I am honest but it is neat. And it works without an Internet connection.
It's a shame it only goes from/to other languages from English. So it could do German to English and vice versa. But not German to French.
It is impressive it does this in real time, recognising words, swapping them and keeping the same style font.
|
|
The salt worker's higher status gave him a better lifestyle in comparison with...?
|
|
Lieutenant and 2nd Lieutenant.
|
"higher status" is the best so far, but it doesn't quite have the complex message of "el Subordinante".
Best so far though, thanks.
|
>> It was precisely this [ high level ????] role, which allowed the generation of savings and subsequent social mobility.
Or to call a spade a spade, the subordinante was allowed to act as a sort of subsidiary capitalist and appropriate a slice of the workers' labour value (=rob the workers blind and beat them up or sack them if they object).
|
|
this is just the spanish trying to do the class thing badly.
|
Since the word occurs twice you have the opportunity to use two different English words to convey the nuances of the Spanish original.
The salt worker enjoyed a high status and lifestyle relative to other members of society...
...It was precisely this more prestigious position that allowed...
Any help?
|
Superordinate ought to be the word. I don't know whether it exists.
Just remembered the joke about the Spaniard and the Irishman.
The Spaniard wanted to know how the Irish would express the word "manana".
He thought for a long while, and then said, "I don't think we have a word for anything as urgent as that".
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Tue 9 Dec 14 at 18:25
|
Good one Cliff.
And correct as it turns out, though using it in the context given might obscure rather than illuminate the point.
goo.gl/CKKDfa
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 9 Dec 14 at 18:28
|
"Superordinate"
Well done that man, and thank you. Do allow me to apologise in advance for claiming your expertise as my own.
|
>> Do allow me to apologise in advance for
>> claiming your expertise as my own.
>>
Now there speaks an ex-consultant :-)
|
|
Dos cafe con leche por favor - see, I sort of remember my Spanish.
|
>> At his age?
>> };---)
Si, lo siento :-(
|
>> Dos cafe con leche por favor - see, I sort of remember my Spanish.
>
That and Dos cerveza (or dos conac) together with donde este dos lavabos(?) was about my limit - but then I only holidayed there.
My schoolboy French comes back surprisingly well in a crisis over there but my vocab is far head of my grammar (though that's probably true of my English as well!!)
|
Los servicios = bogs, more usually.
|
Los baños, where I've been.
Curious that Spanish, like English, has no actual word for the bog, just an ever-increasing spiral of euphemisms.
|
Inodoro, I think. I saw it once when I was in Costa Rica.
What's annoying in Chile is how often they put obscure and arty pictures on the door to tell you which is Ladies or Gents.
On occasions you just have to guess.
|
>> Curious that Spanish, like English, has no actual word for the bog, just an ever-increasing
>> spiral of euphemisms.
What about?
W.C. Water closet.
Lavatory.
Toilet.
Lavatory is my preferred word, otherwise one is drifting toward euphemisms.
If you mean the actual piece of equipment, then it's called a lavatory pan.
|
>>
>> If you mean the actual piece of equipment, then it's called a lavatory pan.
>>
In my catalogue of Victorian sanitary ware it's called a
"Flushing Rim Basin with Fixed Slop-top".
|
Definitely "los servicios" in common speech, although maybe not on door signs (WC is often used) in Andalusia and afaik, in service stations on main roads.
Mind you, to many Spaniards, the Andalucian accent is as incomprehensible as very broad Geordie is to many Sarf-Easters.
Buenas dias, for instance is bonadia (run together) gracias is gracia, and hasta luego (see you later) is just luego, as very often the final letters of words, or even words themselves, are dropped.
Madrileños consider theirs to be real Spanish! It is actually much easier for a foreigner to understand.
Last edited by: Roger. on Wed 10 Dec 14 at 14:27
|
|
Andalucian Spanish is almost entirely incomprehensible, even if they're being nice to you...
|
Fifty three years ago, I scraped an O Level in French. We do visit France, but not all that often over the years.
We have regularly been to Italy - at least once a year for the last twenty five years.
I have taken Italian lessons for five years, and I'm still more comfortable speaking French.
The time to learn languages is when you're young.
8o)
Last edited by: neiltoo on Fri 12 Dec 14 at 14:52
|
English / Spanish translation. - Bromptonaut
