| Non-motoring > Hunger in the UK | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: MD | Replies: 84 |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 10:38
Hunger in the UK - MD
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30323682 What does the panel make of all this? Very sad in this day and age. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 10:54
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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Subject has been covered in the Autumn Statement thread. There are undoubtedly people falling down the gaps in the Social Security net. There's a load of evidence from CAB, homeless and other charities etc that (a) a significant number are people sanctioned by Job Centre and (b) that the sanctions regime is not being properly and fairly applied. Some here though deny such evidence and continue to assert that the regime is only applied to those knowingly breaking the rules. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:07
Hunger in the UK - Manatee
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>>(b) that the sanctions regime is not being properly and fairly applied. Do you know why that is? Do 'targets' come into the picture? I also wonder how easy it is to trip up when trying to comply with the requirements. I suspect that compliance is not that easy, even for people who are trying their level best. I'd also expect that the 'deserving poor' are generally less good at working the system than the professional spongers and benefit fraudsters; and therein lies the root of the problem. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:18
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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Manatee, I've read reports on subject including voluntary sector input and stuff from Parly Committees. Although DWP Ministers and managers deny targets their is plenty of evidence that they exist in form of 'expectations' of staff at the coal face. The Decision Makers who impose the sanction are at a junior level - mostly Admin or Executive Officers and will be closely managed. It may be an example of NoFM's theory of managers focussing on the most difficult thing they can understand, but that doesn't change the impact on the client. The other factor you touch on is also relevant. It's pretty easy to trip up, particularly if literacy/comprehension and increasingly IT are not to the fore. The fragmented nature of the regime, with job seekers training/coaching being provided by outside suppliers, doesn't help either. But Commerdriver will be along shortly to tell us it's all hunky dory really. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 8 Dec 14 at 11:19
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:26
Hunger in the UK - RattleandSmoke
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Thankfully it has been nearly a decade since I last had to step foot in a job centre. I suspect the other main problem is people that are on disability benefits. I know of a few people who genuinely cannot work but have been told they are fit to work. That is all well and good, but jobs can people do if you have limited skills, cannot walk, have limited use of your hands etc or you suffer from ME and as a result fall asleep constantly. The government are not in the real world when it comes to this. Also there simply doesn't seem to be enough low level jobs to go round and not everybody can have PhDs in physics. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:30
Hunger in the UK - Haywain
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"Some here though deny such evidence and continue to assert that the regime is only applied to those knowingly breaking the rules."" I didn't follow the 'Autumn Statement' thread, but surely everyone knows that the dreaded Atos have been making some awful decisions about sick and disabled people who clearly aren't fit for regular work. Can there be any doubt that they are trying to satisfy a target? The linked BBC News item on food banks struck me because it referred to Coalville which is where I was born and brought up. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:40
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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>> I didn't follow the 'Autumn Statement' thread, but surely everyone knows that the dreaded Atos >> have been making some awful decisions about sick and disabled people who clearly aren't fit >> for regular work. Can there be any doubt that they are trying to satisfy a >> target? ATOS of course have thrown in the towel and the testing is now done by another contractor. As I mentioned in the Autumn Statement thread Professor Malcolm Harrington and his successor have been reporting annually on the implementation of the Work Capability Assessment since around 2009/10. One of his early conclusions was that while the WCA was supposed to be only part of the evidence on which claims were decided in effect its results were simply rubber stamped by Decision Makers. Progress on implementing his reports is improving but still has some way to go. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:23
Hunger in the UK - Zero
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30323682 >> >> What does the panel make of all this? Very sad in this day and age. When I see emaciated thin corpses on the street, I will accept there is a "hunger problem" Like all Hunger/poverty traps/problems reported by the various agencies* its not a "crisis" its merely "I want as much and the same as the next man up the tree" *They all have their own existence and survival to worry about, inventing false levels and hence numbers to try and prove there is a huge problems is key to their own organisational survival. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:42
Hunger in the UK - No FM2R
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If the UK had 50% unemployment, it would be reasonable to suppose that the 20% represented a reasonable competent and willing sub-section of the population and thus they could be dealt with en-masse as "normal" population. Whereas I think its around 5% at the moment. It is utterly unavoidable that a 5% sample selected by a particular situation will be heavily biased in one or more ways. And as employment increases, it will become more and more biased. It will reach a point, if it has not already, where there are virtually no "normal" people in that group. The "don't want to work", the "confused and suffering", the "people with problems" and others will all form more and more of that group. Now if people decide that benefits have to be limited / challenged / controlled, then those are the people you are going to be attacking. All well and good if you manage to target a "don't want to work", but more and more often the rock you throw will hit a person with problems. It gets worse in that the Daily Mail and its ilk will report every "don't want to work" who gets benefits as the UK's greatest scandal, and then the next day will report "people with problems" being challenged with similar outrage. The organisations need to get smarter and more selective. But that in itself will cost money. And since the greatest metric used at the moment is "what was the last furor in the media about?", who exactly is going to worry about being truly effective when what they really need to do is dodge the media and their sheep? |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:50
Hunger in the UK - No FM2R
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"If the UK had 50% unemployment, it would be reasonable to suppose that the 20% represented" Both those figures were supposed to be "50%. [sigh] |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 12:04
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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I was thinking the same way on numbers Mark. Ignoring the elephant in room that is zero hours/underemployment we are getting close to full employment - at least on metric of claimant count. Starting with 5% (which is the figure locally) you have to make an allowance for 'churn'. Pretty few jobs for life compared with say the fifties/sixties so maybe 20% of JSA claimants are claiming for a few days or weeks while between two insecure jobs. It's not unreasonable to assume that a very large proportion of the remainder will be incapable of any employment that is actually available. There is of course still a cohort of long term sick. Problem there is that governments of both shades over the last 35 years positively encouraged the unemployed, particularly the older, low skilled and those from dying industries to go on sick to keep them out of the Unemployment stats. My Father took early retirement from a partnership in an import business c1981, he was 56. He'd no need for unemployment benefit but had to register, not sure if it was a legal requirement but he needed to do so for contributions to maintian his Old Age Pension at 65. More or less first question asked was do you have a long term health problem? He could honestly claim a history of anxiety/depression and was sent straight to his GP for a certificate. Stayed on Incapacity Benefit until he was 65. He's long dead now but the practice went on well in C21. That's a lot of people who need to be managed off sick and bak to the disciplines of work. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:43
Hunger in the UK - sooty123
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>> When I see emaciated thin corpses on the street, I will accept there is a >> "hunger problem" Would we wait until then to accept there is a problem? I've not seen any evidence with my own eyes, but accept it might well be an issue somewhere in the UK. I've no idea where the nearest food bank to me is. But it's probably focused in certain areas. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 11:48
Hunger in the UK - DP
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The difficulty with having built up generations dependent on benefits (either as a lifestyle choice, or to top up wages that you can't live on) means that any attempt to deal with the resulting bill is going to cause genuine hardship. What I find upsetting is that the professional scroungers who you really want to be hammering will be playing the system well enough not to be affected. It's the (often hard working) people who play by the rules who will be hit disproportionately hard. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 12:17
Hunger in the UK - Roger.
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What I find unacceptable is that a 40 hour week on the minimum wage does not produce enough net income, after deductions, to support a family, even on a modest scale of living. Then there are "in-work" tax credit benefits to top it up, paid for by all taxpayers - possibly including those whose wages are being topped up. How can it be sensible to work this way? It's a money go round, with considerable chunks being siphoned off to pay for the administration thereof. Would it not be right to ensure a proper living wage, and much higher level before income tax is due? I accept that paying people a living wage may drive even more basic production abroad, or put up prices here, but surely fewer benefits to the truly poor should result in lower taxation levels for tax payers. Or not, as the case may be. A smaller State, altogether, is the classic pure Libertarian answer, but does any economics genius here have an alternative? |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 12:24
Hunger in the UK - Zero
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>> It's a money go round, with considerable chunks being siphoned off to pay for the >> administration thereof. >> Would it not be right to ensure a proper living wage, and much higher level >> before income tax is due? Yes a point made by me last week. >> I accept that paying people a living wage may drive even more basic production abroad, >> or put up prices here, but surely fewer benefits to the truly poor should result >> in lower taxation levels for tax payers. Shouldnt increase wage costs, the wages can be at the same level if you are not taking money off people. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 14:22
Hunger in the UK - Tigger
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>> What I find unacceptable is that a 40 hour week on the minimum wage does >> not produce enough net income, after deductions, to support a family, even on a modest >> scale of living. I would propose abolishing corporation tax. It seems to only hit 'bricks and mortar' type companies, and lets internet companies wriggle out. The minimum wage could at the same time be raised to a decent level, so allowing many in-work benefits to be reduced or eliminated. Solves two problems in one hit. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 12:07
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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>> When I see emaciated thin corpses on the street, I will accept there is a >> "hunger problem" Do you still go into London Z? May not see corpses just yet (the Police/Ambualnce/Council sweep them up quikly and discreetly) but plenty of thin and emaciated people begging on streets or hunkering down in doorways and over vents. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 12:14
Hunger in the UK - Zero
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>> >> >> When I see emaciated thin corpses on the street, I will accept there is >> a >> >> "hunger problem" >> >> Do you still go into London Z? Often, May not see corpses just yet (the Police/Ambualnce/Council >> sweep them up quikly and discreetly) but plenty of thin and emaciated people begging on >> streets or hunkering down in doorways and over vents. Did you go into London in the 70's Brompy? I did. Do you remember the hordes of homeless sleeping under Centre Point? The Embankment? The south bank? I do. Is it as bad as that now? No. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 16:31
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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>> Did you go into London in the 70's Brompy? I did. Do you remember the >> hordes of homeless sleeping under Centre Point? The Embankment? The south bank? I do. I started working in London in 1979 so yes, I remember the Embankment and also Waterloo, where the IMAX is now. Rather more than now I think were alcoholics - meths drinkers even. The bit I remember better was Lincoln's Inn Fields in the early nineties. Over a period of months it became a sort of squatter camp. Some folks in cheap tents, others in 'benders' using tarpaulin and vegitation. They begged on surrounding streets and at night there was a soup kitchen. One used to sit right outside my office's fire door repeating his request for change. He got a bit from visitors to the adjacent Royalty Theatre. That was period when street homelessness was at it's worst. It began to improve after Major replaced Mrs T and there was some real leadership and funding from central government to tackle the problem. Same under Blair. >> Is it as bad as that now? >> >> No. Not sure. In my last few months there sleeping bags began to re-appear in shop doorways. They were always in Exeter St of a morning - warmth from basement vents. Westminster, IIRC, tried to deter them by aggressive street washing in the small hours. There's little help now for single under 25s or those deemed intentionally homeless (including those evicted for arrears). It's certianly not getting better and with more austerity after the election it can only go one way. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 21:54
Hunger in the UK - Harleyman
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>> When I see emaciated thin corpses on the street, I will accept there is a >> "hunger problem" >> >> >> Like all Hunger/poverty traps/problems reported by the various agencies* its not a "crisis" its merely >> "I want as much and the same as the next man up the tree" >> >> *They all have their own existence and survival to worry about, inventing false levels and >> hence numbers to try and prove there is a huge problems is key to their >> own organisational survival. >> Malnutrition in itself is a little more subtle than that but generally I am minded to agree with you. It's a long while ago now so I'll share this with you. My first wife cleared off and left me with two pre-school kids and a mountain of debt; we ended up evicted from our housing association property and were put into "licensed accommodation" by the local council. Anyone who knows the M1 north of Nottingham will remember the four chimneys of Watnall brickyard, recently demolished, and that was where we lived, in one of the old brick workers' cottages, again demolished and I would have paid good money to push the button. Open coal fire with a back boiler, no double glazing, place would have probably been condemned as uninhabitable today; nearest main road was a mile and a half away down a rough track, and a three mile walk to Hucknall where the nearest shops and post office were. One payphone in an old outhouse, mobiles of course didn't exist then; this was 1985. Goes without saying that I didn't have a car. But somehow, we got through; took me a long time to get over it though, and I daresay some will surmise that I haven't, yet. So having been through that, you might think I've got sympathy with many of the people who say that they need these food banks now, and you might think I also applaud the initiative of the good folk who run them. Sorry; I haven't and I don't. This is Britain not Ethiopia. People in this country simply do not know what real hunger is. If they did, most of them wouldn't be as fat as they are. Food banks in this country are a solution looking for a problem to solve. I find it particularly obscene that supermarkets allow them to collect on their premises, knowing full well that peoples' guilt about their own well-being will coerce them into spending even more at the check-outs thus bolstering their flagging profits. I find the whole thing rather repugnant, quite frankly. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 21:59
Hunger in the UK - No FM2R
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Good on you, Harleyman. I got myself through a similar situation, perhaps worse, but I didn't have two kids to cope with. Not sure how I'd have got through that. And I'm not sure you should look to get over it. I think there is a fair amount of truth in the trite saying "what doesn't kill you...." |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 23:49
Hunger in the UK - Armel Coussine
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>> One payphone in an old outhouse, mobiles of course didn't exist then; this was 1985. Goes without saying that I didn't have a car. 1985 eh? The dark ages by the sound of it. Harrumph... some of you cat should have tried the fifties or forties. I was really hungry once, in London, but only for a couple of days. Chap from Lancashire or somewhere up north gave me some tripe and onions on a sinking barge in Battersea where I was doing skippers at that time. I may have been able to offer him a toke of weed in return, can't remember. I was suspicious but the tripe was delicious under the circumstances, instant mashed potato too. I've never been actually starving with any nippers in tow, good God what a thought... you have to shape up a bit when they turn up, and it becomes a habit. Soon you seem almost respectable. It's being called daddy and grandfather that does it. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 00:04
Hunger in the UK - Lygonos
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>> stuff 'bout t'olden days www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 00:15
Hunger in the UK - Ted
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>> >> One payphone in an old outhouse, mobiles of course didn't exist then; this was >> 1985. Goes without saying that I didn't have a car. >> >> 1985 eh? The dark ages by the sound of it. Harrumph... some of you cat >> should have tried the fifties or forties. The 60s as well Lud. In about 1967, I occasionally worked a beat in Ancoats, behind Piccadilly Station. Off Viaduct St, now Jutland St, The city's steepest street, there was a terrace of stone built cottages ending at the derelict Rochdale Canal. I was called to some incident there and I noted that the houses still had earth floors and no electricity. Oil lamps were used in the dingy little rooms. Demolished long ago and glass palace flats and offices all over the area now. tinyurl.com/nkco4h2 Put on an experimental beat system on another division, where the Etihad Stadium is now, for one night only, I was surprised by a rattling sound about 5 am. Turning the corner, I came across the 'knocker-up man ' plying his trade against an first floor window. If you told kids that today, they wouldn't believe you ! |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 08:12
Hunger in the UK - Haywain
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"some of you cat should have tried the fifties or forties." The council prefab that I was born and brought up in (1950s) was demolished in 1965. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 16:14
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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>> >> >> It's a long while ago now so I'll share this with you. 8 I understand that bit. Probably much the same would happen today in terms of being put in sub-standard housing. Different sub-standard granted - perhaps a city sink estate, round here 'the eastern districts' (or Corby). Double glazing though was still a luxury in mid eighties. It wasn't in the private rented flat we had at time, nor was it in my parent's house on what was and is regarded as a posh estate in suburban Leeds. In 1990 around half the houses on main residential estate here still had builders softwood/single glazing. Arrears though might now be at least prima-facie evidence if not proof of being intentionally homeless, in which case help might be less available. >> Food banks in this country are a solution looking for a problem to solve. I don't understand that bit though. There's plenty of evidence, not least the report linked in the OP, that people in the UK are falling through the holes in the safety net. It will get worse under Universal Credit where benefit is paid four weekly and in arrears. Which bit of it do you not believe? |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 16:25
Hunger in the UK - commerdriver
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>> Which bit of it do you not believe? >> The one sided view that nothing works and that everybody in the system is getting punished and doesn't deserve it. There are mistakes and some people do " fall through the cracks" which is not acceptable. But the majority of jobseekers under UC do not get sanctioned and do get help through the process to finding a way forward. Yes the UC payments are monthly but there is provision in the system for an advance until the payment kicks in and it is used in the small UC population so far. The system has a lot of issues which need to be resolved, and the implementation could and should have been better, but the overhaul was and is needed, trying to use people's problems to be negative and score party political points is below contempt in my view. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 16:48
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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CD, The people falling through the net now are in the old regime of JSA/ESA. SAIK UC is only rolled out in a few towns. Irrespective of one's politics there is a clear problem with people who should be helped not getting that help in a timely fashion and in some cases at all. That's not to say nothing works and everybody is being punished but there IS a significant need being met by food banks and that is as scandal in a first world country. Suggesting that the roll out of UC next year risks more problems, particularly because of 4-weekly payment and Housing Benefit going direct to tenants isn't some form of doom-mongering. Like the food parcels situation it's already blindingly obvious to those invoved with assiting and advising claimants. The idea that UC is somehow beyond political criticism is frankly risible. It's a flagship policy devised for and largely identified with one Conservative Minister, Iain Duncan Smith. All the potential problems were pointed out to him but he ploughed on regardless. That much is documented not by his political opponents but by Committees of Parliament. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 17:02
Hunger in the UK - commerdriver
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>> The idea that UC is somehow beyond political criticism is frankly risible. It's a flagship >> policy devised for and largely identified with one Conservative Minister, Iain Duncan Smith. All >> the potential problems were pointed out to him but he ploughed on regardless. That much is >> documented not by his political opponents but by Committees of Parliament. >> The benefit system needed to be sorted out, UC is an attempt to do it. Everyone involved knew and still knows it was and is an incredibly difficult task and would take longer than a single parliamentary term, but it needed to be at least attempted. I do not have any more time for a number of Tory politicians than I suspect you have but, in general, I think IDS comes over as one of the good guys trying to do a job that is too big for the way our short term political system allows. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 17:13
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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>> I do not have any more time for a number of Tory politicians than I >> suspect you have but, in general, I think IDS comes over as one of the >> good guys trying to do a job that is too big for the way our >> short term political system allows. >> I've some sympathy with view that, while in opposition, he devoted a great deal of time to attempting to understand the real problems of the unemployed and the benefits system. I'm thinking particularly of the Centre for Social Justice. Unfortunately he seems to have reverted to the 'nasty party' mode at times, perhaps as meat for the red-necks on his own back benches. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 17:19
Hunger in the UK - commerdriver
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never suggested that the left has a monopoly on party political nastiness, some Tories (and Liberals / SMP / UKIP) have their very own brand of nastiness. Hence my own personal "a plague on all their houses" approach to politics. I really worry about the quality of most of the politicians we have. Is there really a party leader that you or anyone else here thinks would make a prime minister worth having? Or have I just thought of a new thread title? |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 17:45
Hunger in the UK - Runfer D'Hills
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I wouldn't want to be Prime Minister. It wouldn't suit me. Wouldn't mind being Lord High Grand Dictator though. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 17:47
Hunger in the UK - No FM2R
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>>Wouldn't mind being Lord High Grand Dictator though. That'd be good. Just so's you didn't mind reporting to me, the Senior Lord High Grand Dictator. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 18:06
Hunger in the UK - Zero
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>> >>Wouldn't mind being Lord High Grand Dictator though. >> >> That'd be good. Just so's you didn't mind reporting to me, the Senior Lord High >> Grand Dictator. But you would both have to bow down to me, Lord High Grand Dictator in Chief. Nothing however beat "His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular" |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 18:29
Hunger in the UK - PhilW
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| If you or Idi were in charge Z, I'd have to move to Scotland - at least neither of you would be in charge there..................oh, hang on ........ |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 18:37
Hunger in the UK - Armel Coussine
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>> But you would both have to bow down to me, Lord High Grand Dictator in Chief. And when absolutely necessary, but woe betide anyone who wasted my time when it wasn't, I would speak to you agreeably almost as if you were my equals. I would be well known of course for my distaste for kow-towing and that sort of thing. On the whole minions respond well to courtesy, which is hardly difficult to simulate after all. Bless you my children. :o}}}} |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 17:49
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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There's a thread there cd but it needs to look beyond a Cameron/Miliband/Clegg/Farage quartet and to those that might be in frame next. Either post 2015 or in the event of a party leader v London Bus scenario. I'd do an OP but it's Mrs B's community orchestra's Xmas concert tonight and it's a 3 line whip job. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 21:26
Hunger in the UK - Harleyman
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>> I don't understand that bit though. There's plenty of evidence, not least the report linked >> in the OP, that people in the UK are falling through the holes in the >> safety net. It will get worse under Universal Credit where benefit is paid four weekly >> and in arrears. >> >> Which bit of it do you not believe? >> People have always fallen through the net; I simply do not believe that food banks are in any way a solution. Poverty is relative; I cringe every time I hear a politician or prelate witter on about eradicating it, because you can't. The standard of living in this country has improved so much even in my lifetime that nobody has to go hungry to the point of debilitation, and if they do I suggest that it is not the benefits system which is flawed. Yet it is claimed that some people live in poverty; well yes they do, but back in 1985 I'd gladly have swapped my standard of living for theirs. Tigger sums it up well below. The food bank might have worked for the person concerned; what would have worked better is for the social services to have got their act together and dealt with the scenario in a sensible manner. It shouldn't need a gift of food to sort that mess out, merely professionals being professional for a change. Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 9 Dec 14 at 21:29
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 21:54
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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No doubt Harley that's what would happen in an ideal world. But we don't live in one. People are in need now. Foodbanks are not about the general relief of 'poverty' (whether relative or real) butt about crisis. There is for example no longer a national system of crisis loans (what used to be the Social Fund). That's been delegated to local authorities. The webpage for Northampton's foodbank is here: www.restorenorthampton.org.uk/northampton-food-bank.html You cannot just turn up and demand food; it operates by referral from other agencies. CAB is one of the bodies that can and does refer. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 22:46
Hunger in the UK - Harleyman
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Fair enough; I concede that I haven't read too much into the intricacies of how they work. I'm afraid I'm very much one who believes that you live according to your means though, and too many people these days have their priorities wrong on that score. You need to eat; you don't NEED a mobile phone for example. Sorry bout the caps, not sure how I can do italics or bold on here. I am also still very uncomfortable with the sight of collections for said food banks taking place in supermarkets; not because of the good that the food may do, but because of what I see as blatant opportunism by the supermarkets being dressed up as charity. |
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New Fri 12 Dec 14 12:42
UC - Treasury Sign Off - Mapmaker
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>> Food banks in this country are a solution looking for a problem to solve. I'm with you on that one. People are wholly unrealistic in their expectations of what society should provide them with. I heard the Ghastly Jack Munro on Any Questions (why I don't shop at Sainsbury's any longer) the other month, who had just done a week of living on £1 per day for food, and said that she'd felt tired the whole time as she'd eaten rubbish. Given she's supposed to be the Guru of living on peanuts (cash amount, not literally), I thought it was ridiculous. It's not difficult at all to live on £1 per day, but it requires time and planning; the former is something that the unemployed have in spades. You're not going to eat much caviar on that budget, but then should the state pay for caviar for the poor? Tell me, those who are addicted to nicotine, and "need it" in order to function; what do they do when they're waiting 'weeks' for their Giro? Are there fag banks? Finally, most - if not all - of the beggars and rough sleepers I see in London are not British. You see some Irish, and plenty of Romanians, but there is not a significant homeless problem when it comes to British citizens. If you want to see hungry homeless people, go to Spain. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 14:27
Hunger in the UK - Tigger
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My wife co-ran a foodbank until recently. The biggest issue was people who were transitioning from one situation to another. Perhaps from benefits to work, or the other way around. The bureaucracy can take a while to catch up, leaving people vulnerable. One case was a special needs man who had always lived with his mother. Mother died, and the flat was deemed too big, so a deduction was taken for the excess bedrooms. All perfectly reasonable, except that he was overwhelmed and still in grief. The foodbank worked together with a couple of other agencies to give the chap some support, get him a smaller flat and line up the services he needed. Took about 4-6 weeks all in. He's now living on his own again, and in control of his life once again. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 15:46
Hunger in the UK - Armel Coussine
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Really poor starving people don't really exist in this country as my local publican in the grove, a tough old Irishman, told me rudely when the miserablist seventies were upon us. 'There's no hard times,' he snapped contemptuously in reply to my wimpish attempt to discuss the burning issue in that day's comics, moving off down the bar (although I was a fairly regular customer and he wasn't usually rude). A few neglected or abused children and certain categories of head case are genuinely hungry. Anyone else can find food somewhere through charities or indeed the authorities. Overseas another matter of course. Nigeria is a fairly rich and very fertile country that can easily feed itself in principle. But its population has near enough quadrupled in 35 years, it has a devil-take-the-hindmost social/political culture and local authorities which can sometimes be indifferent, tribally bigoted or corrupt enough to just steal funds or food and sell it on. So the people who appear sleeping in shop doorways or lining the kerbs in some parts of Lagos at night, whole families among them with small nippers, are indeed sometimes hungry. Nigerians are the world's best hustlers but when you're malnourished and ill your hustling capacity diminishes. It's terrible to see, squeezes the heart. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 16:03
Hunger in the UK - Tigger
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>> Really poor starving people don't really exist in this country... They shouldn't, but as a primary school governor I'm well aware of some kids who arrive at school unfed, and so in no condition to learn. We've found a way of providing fruit for them. Should not happen in this day and age. Not saying its government fault - sometimes its parents who just don't take their children's needs as seriously as they should. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 16:12
Hunger in the UK - Armel Coussine
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>> parents who just don't take their children's needs as seriously as they should. Perhaps in a few cases, very young parents still finding out that childcare is constant and ongoing. But call a spade a spade Tigger: those children turning up unfed at school are neglected children. May be temporary, may not be anyone's fault in particular, but that's neglect when it isn't abuse. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 16:45
Hunger in the UK - wokingham
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| I think they do, I have just seen a lady interviewed on TV. She has her rent paid and lives on £113.50 a fortnight(might have been a week) either way it isn't much for food, heat, light and tv Licence, never mind clothes and a few other things. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 16:59
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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>> I think they do, I have just seen a lady interviewed on TV. She has >> her rent paid and lives on £113.50 a fortnight(might have been a week) either way >> it isn't much for food, heat, light and tv Licence, never mind clothes and a >> few other things. If she's single that's probably per fortnight. The weekly JSA for singles under 25 is £57.35, for those over 25 £72.40. In many cases there will be deductions for things like 'crisis loans' or the 'bedroom tax'. Couples get £113.70 a week. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 12:25
Hunger in the UK - wokingham
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| Thank you, I expressed doubt as that seems a pitiful sum of money to "live" on for 2 weeks but I accept that it is so. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 16:17
Hunger in the UK - Haywain
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"Nigeria is a fairly rich and very fertile country that can easily feed itself in principle. But its population has near enough quadrupled in 35 years," You know that, AC, and I know that - but try telling it to the chaps over on the UKIP thread! |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 16:29
Hunger in the UK - Zero
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>> "Nigeria is a fairly rich and very fertile country that can easily feed itself in >> principle. But its population has near enough quadrupled in 35 years," >> >> You know that, AC, and I know that - but try telling it to the >> chaps over on the UKIP thread! The qty of people in the UK has got nothing to do with the number of starving people in the UK. Funnily enough the later has gone down as a percentage as the former has increased. Funny how questionable numbers categorise those who seek to justify UKIP policy. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 17:06
Hunger in the UK - Haywain
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"The qty of people in the UK has got nothing to do with the number of starving people in the UK. Funnily enough the later has gone down as a percentage as the former has increased. Funny how questionable numbers categorise those who seek to justify UKIP policy" Do calm down, Zedd, I was referring to CGN's assertion that birth rate tends to reduce with increased wealth. Whilst it did in the case of my grandparents who were from broods of 12 and one of 13, it's a bit more complicated than that. It doesn't appear to have happened in Nigeria, according to AC. I can't be bothered to look up the figures again for you, but ISTR it hasn't happened in Ethiopia either. More sedative, please, nurse! |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 17:27
Hunger in the UK - CGNorwich
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The birth rate is closely linked to personal wealth economic security. Nigeria is a comparatively wealthy country but the there are high levels of corruption and inequality as AC pointed out (I note you omitted the reference to that when you selectively quoted from his post" Ethiopia is far from being a wealthy country If you are on the poverty line in a country with no social security then a family is the only security for you old age. If children suffer a hight mortality rate then you tend to have more children. It is not my assertion that birth rate reduces with increased personal wealth it is a well attested fact. Economic growth is the only mechanism by which the growth of the world population can be stabilised. If you know of any other way please let me know. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 19:10
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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>> If you are on the poverty line in a country with no social security then >> a family is the only security for you old age. If children suffer a hight >> mortality rate then you tend to have more children. Please can I give that more than one green thumb? |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 07:53
Hunger in the UK - Haywain
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"Please can I give that more than one green thumb?" For first school geography? |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 20:27
Hunger in the UK - NortonES2
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| " there are high levels of corruption and inequality" Rather like the USA, where for many years it has been understood, by those not in the GOP, that inequality causes extraordinary poverty in the midst of great wealth. |
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New Mon 8 Dec 14 22:33
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Bromptonaut
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The Secretary of State for Social Security appears to be promising improvements: www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/08/food-banks-iain-duncan-smith-positive-response-critical Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 8 Dec 14 at 22:34
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 00:20
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Bromptonaut
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Another perspective: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/starve-benefit-sanctions-unemployed-hungry-government But of course it's their own fault. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 02:43
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Armel Coussine
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That's a miserablist, exaggerated piece in my book Bromptonaut. The woman talking about cooking is quite right. Junk food is expensive and bad for you. With a minimum of ability good soups and stews can be made from cheap ingredients. When we were very penniless student types in the grove at the end of the fifties, the girls used to get spoiled fruit and veg from the Portobello Road stallholders for nothing. We shared the rent, those with any money. No one said hey, you haven't paid for this so you can't have any. 'Spoiled' fruit and veg were perfectly all right, just not pretty enough for display. The stallholders are the same now, the sons and daughters of the ones who were there then. They recognize your mug, perhaps from way back, and call you Dear or Mate or Sir depending on their proclivities. Not everyone has the Beller but there are local equivalents everywhere. Food doesn't have to be expensive. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 08:03
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Haywain
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"That's a miserablist, exaggerated piece in my book Bromptonaut." Is the writer one of those Grauniad interns so beloved by the The Eye? I guess, under orders to "find something to keep our readers miserable." "The woman talking about cooking is quite right." If you are telling a brutal truth, be careful how you present it. "Junk food is expensive and bad for you. With a minimum of ability good soups and stews can be made from cheap ingredients." I am reminded of this daily by the shower of junk-mail advertising pizza deliveries. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 08:54
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Manatee
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IDS set out to make the benefits system work sustainably. If living on welfare is to be tolerable, and in my opinion it should (i.e. enough money eat, stay warm and housed, and enough choices not to be isolated from society) then it cannot be a lifestyle choice. We could all have told him that was going to be difficult, and I'm sure he knew. Just to remove the the waste created by the system (e.g. long term unemployed moved on to DLA etc.) could cause riots on its own. In practical terms it was probably impossible to avoid casualties when the safety net was removed from people who needed it either erroneously or because they simply weren't equipped to comply with whatever conditions were imposed. We now need a safety net for the safety net, and we should not be relying on charities to provide it. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 09:06
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Zero
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>> If living on welfare is to be tolerable, and in my opinion it should (i.e. >> enough money eat, stay warm and housed, and enough choices not to be isolated from >> society) then it cannot be a lifestyle choice. You can't have it both ways, you can't make it "tolerable" but not a lifestyle choice. If its tolerable it will be chosen as a lifestyle by some. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 09:07
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Manatee
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>> >> >> If living on welfare is to be tolerable, and in my opinion it should >> (i.e. >> >> enough money eat, stay warm and housed, and enough choices not to be isolated >> from >> >> society) then it cannot be a lifestyle choice. >> >> You can't have it both ways, you can't make it "tolerable" but not a lifestyle >> choice. If its tolerable it will be chosen as a lifestyle by some. Quite, it was statement of the problem! |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 09:04
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - CGNorwich
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Would it not be better if they spent more money on wholesome things like oranges and wholemeal bread or if they even, like the writer of the letter to the New Statesman, saved on fuel and ate their carrots raw? Yes, it would, but the point is that no ordinary human being is ever going to do such a thing. The ordinary human being would sooner starve than live on brown bread and raw carrots. And the peculiar evil is this, that the less money you have, the less inclined you feel to spend it on wholesome food. A millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita biscuits; an unemployed man doesn't. Here the tendency of which I spoke at the end of the last chapter comes into play. When you are unemployed, which is to say when you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don't want to eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit 'tasty'. There is always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you. George Orwell road to Wigan Pier |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 22:40
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Bromptonaut
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| www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/dec/08/steve-bell-cartoon-food-poverty-tory-peer-feeding-britain |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 22:45
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Dutchie
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Hunger in the UK? One of the wealthiest countries in the world can't be true. |
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New Tue 9 Dec 14 22:58
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Bromptonaut
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| That's the bit that sickens me Dutchie. We are indeed one of the wealthiest countries in the world yet we require some of our most vulnerable citizens to rely on charitable food banks for essentials. |
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 00:06
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Harleyman
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>> That's the bit that sickens me Dutchie. We are indeed one of the wealthiest countries >> in the world yet we require some of our most vulnerable citizens to rely on >> charitable food banks for essentials. >> I'm sorry Bromp but we don't require it and they don't rely on it. As you pointed out earlier (and I concede your point) food banks may serve a purpose as a short term fix for those in a financial bind due usually to either bureaucratic inefficiency or their own chaotic lifestyles, but to suggest that people rely on it is stretching things a bit too far. I will say one positive thing about food banks. At least people are donating stuff which will go directly to those who need it, rather than putting coins in begging bowls to keep the charity industry payroll fed. |
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 09:44
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - madf
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My wife supports foodbanks- with food donations... We personally know two people who use foodbanks. Both smoke. Some people have their priorities wrong or are abusing foodbanks. Last edited by: madf on Wed 10 Dec 14 at 09:45
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 20:34
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Dutchie
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| Not necessary,some people need the drug and without it can't function. |
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 16:13
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Bromptonaut
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>> >> I'm sorry Bromp but we don't require it and they don't rely on it. You must either be ignoring the evidence or have a different usage of require/rely to those in the OED. People who are in immediate difficulty, eg delay or sanction of benefit, personal misfortune et would previously have been eligible for a crisis loan from the DWP. That obligation has been devolved to Councils to operate locally. Referral to one of the 'gateway' agencies or a foodbank is now a common response. That seems to me to be a requirement and, in sense of immediate need, reliance. Like your post above, it's not right for stuff to be colleted for these foodbanks alongside the bins for cat/dog rescue etc. |
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 20:06
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Harleyman
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I concede that in dire circumstances people in need through no fault of their own may require food banks. As you say, in a perfect world they shouldn't, but perhaps they do. Requirement on an occasional basis, though, tends to breed reliance on a permanent one in some people. The next step is that they start seeing it as a right. Referral to food banks may be a common response but to my mind it's a cop-out by the authorities. That, however, is merely my personal opinion and thankfully we're allowed to differ on those. |
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 20:55
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Bromptonaut
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>> Referral to food banks may be a common response but to my mind it's a >> cop-out by the authorities. That's the bit I agree with though I think it's a foreseeable and probably deliberate consequence of current policy trends (and I wish I was convinced they'd be different under Labour). Rightly or wrongly I read your earlier posts as a denial that this stuff was happening at all, something just a handful of interviews @ CAB tell me is grossly wishful thinking. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 10 Dec 14 at 20:55
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 21:15
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Dutchie
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Can't be nice to have to use a food bank to survive from day to day.One the one hand bins are often full with wasted food the buy one get one free thingy. There is something not right when people can't afford to buy food in a wealthy country.About a million people using the food banks. |
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 21:27
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Harleyman
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Can see why you could read it that way; but no it happens all right. Despite us probably being diametrically opposed in our political leanings, I take a bit of comfort from knowing that you're probably as troubled by their very existence as I am. |
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 21:31
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Bromptonaut
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>> Despite us probably being diametrically opposed in our political leanings, I take a bit of >> comfort from knowing that you're probably as troubled by their very existence as I am. Worth a green thumb. |
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 22:38
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Cockle
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>> I concede that in dire circumstances people in need through no fault of their >> own may require food banks. As you say, in a perfect world they shouldn't, but >> perhaps they do. >> >> Requirement on an occasional basis, though, tends to breed reliance on a permanent one in >> some people. The next step is that they start seeing it as a right. >> My son could quite easily have been covered by your first sentence when he was made redundant last year. His JSA came through quite quickly but it just about covered his rent, which should have been covered by housing benefit and that's where his problems came in, it took the relevant agency just over three months to start paying his housing benefit. Up until that point he had never had a day out of work since leaving school at 16 to go to college, he even held down a full time job working evenings and weekends while at college. He was out of work for seven months and he freely admits that he was shocked at how quickly he could have been on his uppers, he reckons he would have totally scuppered in that first three months due to the lack of payment of the housing benefit. He still maintains that many of the delays he experienced almost seemed to be deliberate, one instance was when they asked for a copy of his last bank statement, he banks online, paperless, and offered to e-mail it, they wouldn't accept an e-mailed copy it had to be printed so he printed one off and posted it in. They then came back and said that they wanted three months statements, he went through the process again. Then they came back and said that they wouldn't accept statements printed off the web, they had to be originals from the bank. He finally had to go to his branch get them to print the statements and get them to stamp it and verify them as a true copy, at a cost, of course. He was lucky as he had a redundancy payment which just saw him through; and a working mother and father who could help him out. As it happens, my wife actually issues food bank vouchers for our local Trussell Trust food bank and she tells me that people can't use them on a regular basis. Every voucher they issue is logged with both themselves and the food bank, 'clients' are allowed three vouchers in any six month period, if they come for a fourth then they have to be referred to the food bank management who then investigate further. The 'clients' can't easily get around the system by going to different voucher issuers as a list detailing those on their 'third strike' is circulated around the issuing agents. The dangers of developing a regular and habitual dependency is well recognised, certainly by the Trussell Trust, and they do try to prevent it. My wife has been in her present role for just over a year now and she says that what she has seen in that time has opened her eyes, previously she says she would never have believed that what she has seen could be happening in Britain in 2014. Maybe she has led a sheltered life but she has been truly shocked by some of her experiences in this last year. The way many talk about various welfare payments, that people should have to do menial work in return for JSA, that people on welfare payments should be made to live as uncomfortable a life as possible and be almost disgraced with the disdain of society makes it sound almost like the arguments previously used to justify the Union Workhouses. Maybe we should just stop pussy footing around and go back to the workhouses, we could even save on care and nursing for the elderly by putting them in the workhouse as well. People talk about wanting to return to Victorian values; maybe we should go the whole hog.... |
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New Thu 11 Dec 14 00:23
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Harleyman
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Thanks for that Cockle. Appreciate the insight and i'm pleased to see that a system of checks and balances is well established. Seems though that my comment about the social services and benefits agencies being the ones who are failing, ain't far short of the mark. If anything, it seems to have got worse since my experience of state dependency, if your lad's experience is anything to go by. My daughter has regular hassles with her DLA (for my eldest granddaughter) and in this modern age of instant computerised payments there really is no excuse for it. I have however seen things from the other side, as I did a couple of years as a recruitment consultant in the agency business. I can assure you that despite the efforts of the Jobcentres and other agencies to place people into work, there are still a fair few about who simply don't want it and go to great lengths to avoid it. Usual tactics are to turn up for interview looking and smelling like they've slept in a skip, although you'd see them in the pubs and clubs looking perfectly clean and smart; be as truculent and uncooperative as possible and then if you do find them a placement they don't turn up, or else bunk off after an hour if they do. For those people I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever. With regard to your last comment; earning your living and paying your way is also very much a Victorian value. Last edited by: Harleyman on Thu 11 Dec 14 at 00:26
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New Thu 11 Dec 14 04:22
Hunger in the UK - IDS Responds - Pat
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Thanks for that Cockle, I really appreciate that insight as to the working of food banks. It's reassured me they are needed, and the donations are going to the needy. Pat |
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New Wed 10 Dec 14 21:21
UC - Treasury Sign Off - Bromptonaut
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In spite of IDS trumpeting roll out of UC beyond the test towns the Treasury is still not convinced: www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/10/universal-credit-treasury-still-to-sign-off-business-case Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 10 Dec 14 at 21:21
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New Sun 14 Dec 14 23:44
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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A take on this today in the BBC Radio 4 news magazine Broadcasting House - try listen again. Pretty much the first half of the programme was taken up with case of a single mother going hungry so her children could eat. Not typical but perhaps an example of how system fails the hard cases. She'd been a prosperous paid up member of self employed middle class (running a gallery) until her second child was born with a congenital liver disorder. Dealing with his problems lead to loss of business and relationship. Now living in social housing on net £400pcm - after the 'bedroom tax'. Trouble is meeting kid's dietary needs costs £70/week. In another common theme a quick analysis by Money Box's Paul Lewis suggested she was not actually getting her full benefit entitlement. |
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New Mon 15 Dec 14 00:03
Hunger in the UK - Armel Coussine
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>> Trouble is meeting kid's dietary needs costs £70/week. >> In another common theme a quick analysis by Money Box's Paul Lewis suggested she was not actually getting her full benefit entitlement. All that aside though, 'Has she no family?' an African might ask indignantly. A lot of Africans, who call their third cousins once removed 'brothers' and are usually in touch with very remote relations, regard us British as cold, harsh and stingy with our relations, even close ones. It isn't always the case but they do have a sort of point about our attitudes, seems to me. It's because we're so rich. Poor people are open-handed to others in need, because they may need generosity one day. |
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New Mon 15 Dec 14 07:43
Hunger in the UK - Bromptonaut
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Another take: www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/14/dwp-inquiries-benefit-claimant-suicides |
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New Mon 15 Dec 14 10:08
Hunger in the UK - madf
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>> >> It's because we're so rich. Poor people are open-handed to others in need, because they >> may need generosity one day. > Whilst it sounds plausible, I think the answer is more complex. Many families are close in the UK and support each other, and travel hundreds of miles at family occasions.. if they can. Others don't even show up at funerals when they live within a two mile radius.. I can think of at least two families where children have grown up and moved away and refuse all contact with parents... or relations. (and normal childhoods with loving parents and no abuse) |
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New Mon 15 Dec 14 10:30
Hunger in the UK - Zero
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>> Others don't even show up at funerals when they live within a two mile radius.. I see my large east end of london derived family about once a year. usually at Wedding or Funerals (tho we had one that was a combined funeral/wedding/christening/let of of jail on license bash). When the patriarch died the resulting funeral cortege was so long it made it onto traffic reports on the radio. We arrive, we drink, we eat really bad food, we do a knees up, we drink, we fight, the old bill turns up and we leave. Last edited by: Zero on Mon 15 Dec 14 at 10:31
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New Mon 15 Dec 14 10:48
Hunger in the UK - Duncan
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>> We arrive, we drink, we eat really bad food, we do a knees up, we drink, we fight, the old bill turns up and we leave. I hope the lead actor in the proceedings turns up in a horse drawn hearse, with white flowers spelling out GENTLEMAN on each side of the coffin. It's the only way to go. |
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