Non-motoring > American shooting (again)	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: MD	Replies: 48

Mon 24 Nov 14 08:25   American shooting (again) - MD

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30172433 Your views? Mine. His parents should have known better in that mad mad world. Harsh maybe. Would a taser have worked or would that have done him similar damage? Sad whatever way it's viewed. MD Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 08:52   American shooting (again) - Lygonos

>>Would a taser have worked... If the cops knew it was a replica neither Taser nor bullets would have been required. If they thought it was a real gun and they/public were in danger then they'd shoot bullets. When they shoot, they aim for the chest to ensure rapid knock-down. The side effect of that is often death. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 24 Nov 14 09:02   American shooting (again) - Bromptonaut

Not really enough facts to go on. But US police are known to shoot first and ask the body questions later. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 09:28   American shooting (again) - Slidingpillar

The trouble is, in a society where hand guns are very common, not doing so would probably lead to more dead cops. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 09:31   American shooting (again) - Zero

They should pile the dead bodies outside the doors of the NRA, maybe then the stink of death might get through to the Neanderthals within. Reply to this message | Report message       4

Mon 24 Nov 14 13:16   American shooting (again) - Zero

>> If the cops knew it was a replica neither Taser nor bullets would have been >> required. >> If they thought it was a real gun and they/public were in danger then they'd >> shoot bullets. Just seen a picture of the gun on the TV. At 10 yards? would look real enough to me. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 13:38   American shooting (again) - zippy

Sad case. Too little info at the moment, but if the cop thought it was a real gun then he did what he had to. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 13:42   American shooting (again) - Focusless

>> Just seen a picture of the gun on the TV. At 10 yards? would look >> real enough to me. It was 'real' in that it was (according to BBC report) an airsoft BB-type gun, with its 'orange safety indicator' removed. In other words it wasn't just some plastic toy. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 14:27   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

>> In other words it wasn't just some plastic toy. The 911 caller didn't think it was a real pistol, and allegedly this wasn't passed on to the officers at the scene. Their excuse - that the poor child 'reached for' the gun - is bog standard for this sort of situation and probably pure invention. Frankly if you're confronted by a couple of paranoid American policemen with their weapons in their hands it's a very bad idea to move at all. Even keeping still or raising your hands won't necessarily save you. They can say what they like after the event, and usually do. Obviously policemen often feel under threat. You can't entirely blame them for being jumpy and paranoid. But I have the impression that US police kill a lot more (relatively) innocent citizens than robbers and burglars do. Don't come on hard with the LAPD if you know what's good for you. They'll shoot you to pieces at the drop of a hat. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 14:44   American shooting (again) - bathtub tom

>>The 911 caller didn't think it was a real pistol Not so! BBC have played the call and the caller says he doesn't know if it's real or not. It was also stated the police were not told it may be a fake. Apparently, the gun should've had some orange marker on the muzzle to indicate it wasn't real. That had been removed! Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 15:23   American shooting (again) - rtj70

Sounds like the intention was for it to look real by removing the orange marker. A friend at school had some replica guns - they looked at felt real to me! The Magnum especially so. The Uzi 9mm looked and felt quite convincing too. It would be quite foolish to take those into any school these days! But this was circa 1988. Maybe things a little different then?? Edit: And the guns did fire BB type bullets I think. And had no markings to say they were replicas. Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 24 Nov 14 at 15:24 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 17:03   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

>> Edit: And the guns did fire BB type bullets I think. And had no markings to say they were replicas. Big deal. Might sting a bit if it hit you in the face. Does seem a bad idea though to make bb guns that look like heavy automatics in a poor light and then allow children to run about waving them in public. There was supposed to be deer culling going on here yesterday but not once did I hear the .308. I think the deer had skedaddled into other forests or escaped across the fields... perhaps they're paying some journalists for advance information. By the way, can anyone tell me how to find a .41 calibre spherical bullet mould? Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 24 Nov 14 at 17:05 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 17:28   American shooting (again) - Westpig

Lygonos has it right. You don't shoot to wing...that just makes them angrier. You shoot to kill them. I know a Tazer knocks you to the ground and you'd drop the gun... however, you have to get close enough to use it. With the US gun culture, their law enforcement IS paranoid.. and they have every right to be. Their culture when it comes to interaction with Police is 'do as you are damned well told' or you will be shot... and every now and again we read about the consequences when someone doesn't comply. That's the way it is over there...totally different to here. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 18:11   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

>> You don't shoot to wing...that just makes them angrier. You shoot to kill them. Obviously if it comes to shooting you shoot to hit at least. Pistols are wildly inaccurate things and to have the best chance of a hit the centre of the target is where you aim, somewhere around the solar plexus, heart, stomach and lungs among other vital organs. It's true too that in a tooled-up country like the US the police have good reason to be paranoid quite a lot of the time. A person of bad character though - and there are bad policemen - can easily slip into trigger-happy, murderous mode. It's quite clear that incidents of gratuitous police homicide aren't unknown there. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 24 Nov 14 at 18:13 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 18:22   American shooting (again) - Westpig

>> A person of bad character >> though - and there are bad policemen - can easily slip into trigger-happy, murderous mode. >> It's quite clear that incidents of gratuitous police homicide aren't unknown there. >> Like this? www.snopes.com/crime/cops/judd.asp Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 18:32   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

>> Like this? No, not like that. That, from the account given, wasn't gratuitous although some people might think it a bit excessive, and the chief's comments a bit triumphalist. The guy had murdered a policeman and was still armed. Nothing gratuitous about shooting him. But the police shoot a lot of people in the US and sometimes it does seem a bit gratuitous. Of course you have to be there to really have a proper angle on it. Even then, dramatic events freak people out and give them false or shifting memories. I guess policemen are aware of that. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 18:35   American shooting (again) - No FM2R

A person, albeit a 12 yr old kid, turns up, pretends to have a gun, and waves what looks like a gun and that he says actually is a gun and amuses himself threatening and scaring other people. The police turn up and believe him and shoot him. How is that the policeman's fault? Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 18:38   American shooting (again) - No FM2R

clashdaily.com/2014/11/boom-milwaukee-police-chief-explodes-black-protesters-ignoring-crimes-greatest-racial-disparity/ Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 24 Nov 14 18:46   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

Yuck FMR. What a load of convoluted confused gringo tosh... you're a damn rough lot over there across the pond. You don't like smileys so I'll spare you one out of politeness. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 20:17   American shooting (again) - Westpig

>> Yuck FMR. What a load of convoluted confused gringo tosh... you're a damn rough lot >> over there across the pond. What is 'convoluted confused gringo tosh' about that?...or have I missed some irony. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 20:21   American shooting (again) - NortonES2

Just a phrase he's going through. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 01:47   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

>> or have I missed some irony. Not irony, stern distaste. The vituperative introduction set the tone. But actually that was aa whole page of right wing militarist links, none of which I opened. No doubt some were all right in their way. If people are behaving like toerags it's absurd to call them low-lifes repeatedly when describing their behaviour. Show, so you don't need to make a fool of yourself by telling. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 09:20   American shooting (again) - Westpig

>> >> or have I missed some irony. >> >> Not irony, stern distaste. The vituperative introduction set the tone. As it happens, in a past life and probably to a lesser degree... I have shared his angry criticism. I still think like that now, knowing there are areas of our country where this problem is as equally valid, albeit not to the scale of the US problem. I think it is good that the local police chief cares about a very young crime victim and supports his staff operating in often very difficult circumstances. He also makes the very valid point that all the liberal armchair critics are very quick to criticise a police shooting regardless of the circumstances or provocation.. but are absolutely nowhere to be seen when someone wholly innocent is gunned down by the local crook(s). If you were to ignore his anger and the site it was posted on... what do you think of his actual message? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 13:54   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

>> ignore his anger and the site it was posted on... what do you think of his actual message? OK as far as it goes I suppose. But as I said, overstated and a bit confused/confusing. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 18:40   American shooting (again) - Westpig

>> >> ignore his anger and the site it was posted on... what do you think >> of his actual message? >> >> OK as far as it goes I suppose. But as I said, overstated and a >> bit confused/confusing. >> There's a fellow called Charles R Patrick who has posted a video on Facebook called 'Will the Real Black Americans Please stand up'. IMO never was a truer word said. I don't know how to put the video on here without linking to my account, but if you search for him on Facebook it is easily found. Last edited by: Westpig on Tue 25 Nov 14 at 18:42 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 18:54   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

>> IMO never was a truer word said. Heh heh... an earnest young cat talking very good sense. But privileged of course by real ghetto standards. He isn't from the lower depths even if he knows a bit more about them than you or me. I can't think of a black person I know who wouldn't applaud what he says in that video. The phenomenon of motherless fatherless feral black youth ruining the reputation of all blacks is a recurrent theme with them. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 26 Nov 14 07:14   American shooting (again) - Focusless

>> There's a fellow called Charles R Patrick who has posted a video on Facebook called >> 'Will the Real Black Americans Please stand up'. Also on youtube: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpsQwl_19M4 Last edited by: Focusless on Wed 26 Nov 14 at 07:14 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 13:22   American shooting (again) - No FM2R

>>But actually that was aa whole page of right wing militarist links Goodness me, you are right and I honestly didn't notice as I only watched the video. I probably wouldn't have posted it if I'd paid any attention at all to the rest of that page. Sorry 'bout that. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 20:44   American shooting (again) - Zero

The Mayor has a point. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 21:34   American shooting (again) - Dutchie

What I can understand what he is talking about .Some people are armed to the teeth amongst them plenty of blacks.Expect to be shot and yes cops make mistakes. It's a merry go round and it won't change in the States. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 24 Nov 14 22:52   American shooting (again) - swiss tony

>> It was 'real' in that it was (according to BBC report) an airsoft BB-type gun, >> with its 'orange safety indicator' removed. In other words it wasn't just some plastic toy. So, if a crim was clever, he could fit an orange marker onto a real gun, and it would be regarded as a fake? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 13:19   American shooting (again) - wokingham

Can't quite work out why the aggrieved citizens think they are making any useful contribution by burning their city buildings including shops and restaurants and burning the vehicles of, presumably, their own fellow residents. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Tue 25 Nov 14 13:34   American shooting (again) - Dutchie

The lad who was shot dead was left for four hrs in the street.Frustration not being listened to and ignored.Doesn't take much to have a riot. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 13:46   American shooting (again) - wokingham

Yes but no logic to smashing your own city/area and destroying the property of your fellow citizens. I do not know the facts but maybe the protesters to the shooting were preventing police and medical services getting to him in the first instance. I agree that it doesn't take much to have a riot and if you are poor and feel deprived or discriminated against (very common in Missouri I understand), there's the flashpoint. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 14:23   American shooting (again) - Dutchie

You've just said it Wokingham poverty feeling left out works like a powderkeg. Never a excuse to riot I know and it is usually their own people who get hurt.It's a mixed up mess in the States regarding weapons and gun ownership. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 16:23   American shooting (again) - Zero

>> Yes but no logic to smashing your own city/area and destroying the property of your >> fellow citizens. You may not like the fact, (don't tell the general populous this) but Rioting works. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 25 Nov 14 16:49   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

>> Rioting works. Sort of, sometimes, in tolerant soppy liberal states like ours. Only the rioters actually enjoy it though. Everyone else is upset and inconvenienced by it. Of course if you try it in say Egypt or Syria you might find it doesn't really work and you end up dead or behind bars for a very long time. I'm too slow on my feet to attend riots these days but even when spry I would have treated rioting in say Belgium, France, Italy or Spain as something to keep well clear of. Call me a wimp by all means but I bet I've seen more riots in more places than most here. Rioting is damn dangerous in a random sort of way. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 17:10   American shooting (again) - Bromptonaut

On holiday in Spain shortly post Franco we chanced upon some sort of one day strike protest thing in Granada. In London a few blokes shouting and waving placards is nothing to fuss over but in Spain he locals seemed to evaporate as soon as the chanting became audible. They were clearly concerned for us as foreigners too - a bit like the French on camp sites who get in a lather about thunderstorms. Nothing overtly threatening - the one word being repeated over and over was the Spanish word for strike. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 17:15   American shooting (again) - Zero

>> bit like the French on camp sites who get in a lather about thunderstorms. A good French thunderstorm is worth getting into a lather about, Not in the US prairies league but none the less make ours look pretty pathetic. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 17:19   American shooting (again) - Bromptonaut

>> A good French thunderstorm is worth getting into a lather about, Not in the US >> prairies league but none the less make ours look pretty pathetic. Indeed, seen absolute corkers in Alps and Pyrenees. But I've not seen them as something to cower from in the site common room. The Lad sleeps through them while his Mum, Sis and I are bailing out the tent. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 17:23   American shooting (again) - Runfer D'Hills

I'm sure NFTR, sorry, NFMRT, sorry, wotsisname Mark anyway, will be along soon to confirm, but you ain't seen nuthin' till you've seen a Brazilian thunderstorm. Epic doesn't cover it. It feels like the World is actually ending. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 18:46   American shooting (again) - No FM2R

Like Dunfer says, when it rains in Brazil, its pretty awesome. Driving is impossible. Walking isn't great. I certainly cannot see from one end of my garden to the other. Its strange because the water is warm. So unlike England where you get cold and wet in the rain, you just get wet. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 19:08   American shooting (again) - madf

South African thunderstorms are amazing. Whole sky lights up like a giant TV screen. Rain like stair rods. Impossible to drive.. Outside, you are wet through in 30 seconds. Not funny if you are running competitively at the time and have another 5ks to go... At least you don't need to take a water bottle.. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 20:18   American shooting (again) - Kevin

>South African thunderstorms are amazing. Oh yes madf. We've seen some spectacular thunderstorms in South Africa and Namibia. We once watched one that parked itself over the Angolan border for two days. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 19:44   American shooting (again) - Kevin

>The Lad sleeps through them while his Mum, Sis and I are bailing out the tent. Be careful with thunderstorms Bromp. My chemistry teacher and his wife were killed by lightning while camping in France. Their two primary school-age sons, who were both deaf from birth, were in a seperate tent and luckily survived. Difficult to imagine being in that situation as a youngster. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 20:00   American shooting (again) - Bromptonaut

>> Be careful with thunderstorms Bromp. Tragic incident Kevin but to be blunt if the thunderbolt's got your name on it.... Probability is my guide, hence the blasé attitude to cycle helmets. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 21:11   American shooting (again) - Kevin

>Probability is my guide, hence the blasé attitude to cycle helmets. Mine too Bromp but if I can massage the odds in my favour without too much inconvenience I'll do it. A few years ago we were sat in a taverna in Vlicho, Greece when a thunderstorm came over. It had been a bit breezy when we'd moored up a couple of hours earlier but it was now blowing a gale and lightning was striking the surrounding hilltops. From the taverna across the street we could see the boat being tossed around quite violently. Did I brave the horizontal rain and charge towards that huge aluminium mast to check that the lines were safe? Did I heck. I ordered another Metaxa and waited it out. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 25 Nov 14 21:17   American shooting (again) - MD

>> Did I heck. I ordered another Metaxa and waited it out. >> ...and I'm fairly sure David Mellor would have directed that Me taxa better than you:-) Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 25 Nov 14 17:27   American shooting (again) - Armel Coussine

>> In London a few blokes shouting and waving placards is nothing to fuss over but in Spain he locals seemed to evaporate as soon as the chanting became audible. They were clearly concerned for us as foreigners too Doubtless they had seen a few peaceful demos turning into riots Bromptonaut... it can happen... Heh heh. Is it in bad taste to say this is all making me feel a bit, well, nostalgic? Reply to this message | Report message       1