To follow on from the death penalty thread, lets look at the case of Harry Roberts
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29737668
Clearly, if the state or the people wanted to hang anyone, Harry would, understandably, be top of the list.
Sentenced to life, minimum 30 years, he has served 48 years in jail. Now released to much outcry from some quarters, a mere shrug from others.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29734816
Now the logical question to ask, now we have rejected the death penalty, is should Roberts still be inside?
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I can understand how serving and former police officers must feel about this and I'd no doubt be the same had I been "Job". But the guy's 78, as harmless as someone of that age will be and will be under constant supervision with the prospect of a recall should he step even slightly out of line. Effectively he did get a real life sentence because all but the last few years spent hanging round waiting to die have been taken away from him.
Being let loose in the big bad world after so long institutionalised might even be a tougher existence than the one he became used to for virtually all of his adult life. I'm not against whole life sentences in principle, there is no way the Krays or Ian Brady could ever have been released, for instance.
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He's served his time, no doubt a horrible man.
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No doubt he wasn't nice but AFAIK he only killed on the one occasion and I doubt that was really premeditated. Unlike the Scottish bloke who has been in and out of prison for murder and different assaults all his life and therefore a much better candidate for the death penalty in my view.
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>> No doubt he wasn't nice but AFAIK he only killed on the one occasion and
>> I doubt that was really premeditated. Unlike the Scottish bloke who has been in and
>> out of prison for murder and different assaults all his life and therefore a much
>> better candidate for the death penalty in my view.
You are too kind. He had been on many armed robberies and allegedly showed no remorse.
"He told journalist Nick Davies he felt sorry for the impact the murders had on the policemen's families, but said: "They keep asking me 'Do you feel remorse, Harry?' And I say no. We didn't want to murder anyone.
"That was the last thing we wanted. We shot them because we thought they were going to nick us and we didn't want to go to jail for 15 years.
"We were professional criminals. We don't react the same way as ordinary people."
A psychopath. Dangerous at any age.
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>> A psychopath. Dangerous at any age.
When Roberts did his murders he was a young armed robber desperate to avoid going down for it. It was ruthless, but he then got caught on another robbery and ended up on trial for the murders. He got a very long jail stretch and has had plenty of time to regret his action. He says he does regret it.
Robbers tend to be psychopathic, although they aren't usually a danger to innocent bystanders. But to suggest that there is any comparison between Roberts and his like and the sort of perverse serial killer psychopath mentioned higher up is simply crazy.
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I agree he's not the same, but he set out many times with a gun and was prepared to use it. Neither should be released.
He saw the death of the policemen as necessary and justified, and we should assume that he would have killed you or me had we got in his way.
I don't think you can read much into "regret" when parole is a possibility.
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>> he set out many times with a gun and was prepared to use it.
Yes, if it seemed necessary. I didn't mean to suggest Roberts was a pussy-cat.
But he didn't go out intending to kill, like the really nasty psychopath. That's an essential difference.
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I was first mate on the night patrol van when Roberts was on the run. No one else had radios in those days.
About 3am one morning we got a call to go to the nearest police station and phone in on the landline ( the press used to monitor the radios, even then ). We drove to Moor End in Wythenshawe and used the phone there
We were told that a member of the public had seen Harry Roberts walking up the main road towards the city centre. He was at the edge of the carriageway, the footpaths being some distance away, through the landscaping.
We soon found him and I, as passenger, tentatively slid the window of the Austin J4 back half an inch and looked at him close to, shouting 'Are you ok there, mate ? '
He was...and it wasn't Harry..he was safely tucked up in his sleeping bag in Epping Forest.
A frisson of nervousness in a boring shift !
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I'll post my view now.
The likes of Roberts are the very worse type, prepared to top almost anyone for no good reason other than being caught. The Rippers and Panther types of this world have a screw loose and in a way, even a very small way, can't help themselves. The Roberts type can and it was a rational choice to kill someone to escape.
48 years in jail, has he done enough time? Yes of course he has. At 78 years of age is he a risk? nah of course he isn't. Should he have been released? No.
NO? why is that? Well a whole life term is a whole life term and as explained above being the very worse type for who someone else's life is very cheap indeed, its appropriate he never be let out, and to die behind bars having spent most of his life there.
Mark has often said that we need to decide what we want prison to be - Rehabilitation of the offender, public safety from the offender, a deterrent, punishment of the offender or public retribution.
In this case he was incapable of the first, the others fit nicely and the last has not yet been fulfilled.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 15 Nov 14 at 18:36
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>> In this case he was incapable of the first, the others fit nicely and the
>> last has not yet been fulfilled.
Oh and don't you think that has met so many more criteria than simply hanging him, and forgotten all those years ago?
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>>Mark has often said that we need to decide what we want prison to be - Rehabilitation of the offender, public safety from the offender, a deterrent, punishment of the offender or public retribution.
And then one has to decide what one wants the death penalty to be and what its for;
Deterrent? - seemingly doesn't work. In fact, may make things worse in certain situations.
Punishment? - Well, not really. One would have thought that many years of suffering would be worse.
Retribution? - a pretty awful way of justifying state killing.
Public safety? - How is it safer than locked up?
Cheaper? - again, an awful way of justifying state killing.
So what is it for then? What do you want it to achieve?
Seems to me that removing an element of society that we are not able to change/improve and thus we no longer want within society is about the only justification - yet strangely that's the one that nobody is every comfortable with.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 15 Nov 14 at 19:31
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No danger now?
How old was that Puppy farmer who killed those two women recently?
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>> No danger now?
>>
>> How old was that Puppy farmer who killed those two women recently?
I would be a very silly constable indeed who rubber stamped Harry Roberts application for a shotgun license!.
Hold on just a mo, it was a very silly constable who rubber stamped the mad dog breeders shotgun license!
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>> NO? why is that? Well a whole life term is a whole life term and
>> as explained above being the very worse type for who someone else's life is very
>> cheap indeed, its appropriate he never be let out, and to die behind bars having
>> spent most of his life there.
But what's the gain?
Is today's young thug going to worry unduly whether he's jailed to 78 or death in the instant before he pulls the trigger?
Roberts in a Council flat living on the social is a lot cheaper than Roberts in even an open prison.
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>> But what's the gain?
>>
>> Is today's young thug going to worry unduly whether he's jailed to 78 or death
>> in the instant before he pulls the trigger?
Probably not, but he is going to be in jail, not shooting anyone, not conceiving any more gun totting thugs, nor acting as a role model. Buried and forgotten.
>>Roberts in a Council flat living on the social is a lot cheaper than Roberts in even an open prison.
At 78? no chance, His quality of life is impaired so will require all manner of social services care, not to mention the winter fuel allowance.
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No Death Penalty? Harry Roberts released. - Robin O'Reliant
