I have to say that I have the utmost respect for those those travelling overseas to help contain this awful disease .
Otoh, bearing in my mind i am not religious, my 'born again' religious 86yo relation tells me it is Gods way of keeping the population down. How do you argue with someone of that age and belief?
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You can't.
Just go outside and scream. Every hour on the hour.
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Last Thursday we were at the first of the annual winter series of the Royal Marine Band Scotland's concerts. The bandmaster apologised that the band would be a little down on numbers for the remaining concerts as twelve of them were sailing with RFA Argus to West Africa. Their combat role is medical support and most of them have served in Afghanistan.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 19 Oct 14 at 22:03
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You can't.
Just go outside and scream. Every hour on the hour.
83 year old Mother: An every day conversation.
"Glad we left the east end, its been ruined, full of blacks"
Son
"Mother you left the east end 55 years ago because you hated the local white population"
Mother:
"Ruined by the jews then it was"
Son
"But mother, you worked for them when you left school, said they were really good employers, looked after you"
Mother:
"Yeah but they sold out to the blacks didn't they, greedy bar stewards"
Son
"sigh"
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 19 Oct 14 at 22:28
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>> it is Gods way of keeping the population down...How do you argue with someone of that age and belief?
Advise them that in the same time that Ebola has killed 4000 (mostly Africans), we have killed about 180,000 foetuses in England and Wales alone through abortions, and about 600,000 adults died through old age.
As a population controller, God really sucks.
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>> Advise them that in the same time that Ebola has killed 4000 (mostly Africans)
So if there is a God... he's racist then according to Legacylad's mother?
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I have a theory that bigotry and age go hand in hand.
I have an elderly relate who hates homosexuality. He berates it at every opportunity and if he sees mention of it on the TV or in the paper then the vitriol is doubled.
He forgets that one of his siblings has been living with their same sex friend for the last 60 or so years and only has one bed and thinks the world of both of them. Won't have it said that they are homosexual.
Personally, I think that they are a wonderful if somewhat batty couple and relish the rare occasions when I see them.
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>>about 600,000
>> adults died through old age.
>>
>> As a population controller, God really sucks.
>>
I think even people who don't believe in God think it is probably a good idea that people eventually die of old age, rather than living forever.
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>> As a population controller, God really sucks.
so god had nothing to do with the 600k who died of old age?
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 20 Oct 14 at 10:19
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>> my 'born again' religious 86yo relation tells me it is Gods way of keeping the population >>down. How do you argue with someone of that age and belief?
>>
Don't bother. Shrug your shoulders and leave it.
A moments intelligent thought should tell anyone that "God" doesn't do anything, because there isn't any such thing.
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Although an atheist myself it has to be said that a lot of intelligent and thoughtful people, both now and over the centuries have believed in God and that racism is not only found in those with a faith in God.
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Off-post a bit, but wasn't a cruise ship scare over the disease inevitable?
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>> Off-post a bit, but wasn't a cruise ship scare over the disease inevitable?
I read last week of panic on a National Express coach after a woman, presumably of African heritage, was sick. Meanwhile, in Norwich a Sierra Leonian student from UEA was refused a flat on basis of his possible exposure to Ebola.
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The ship was prevented from landing in Mexico. Maybe America should refuse to accept it too.
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>> The ship was prevented from landing in Mexico. Maybe America should refuse to accept it too.
I thought it was Belize. Anyway the passenger tested negative in the end.
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Re Nigeria. (With a population of more than 170 million,)
I hope this good news story gets a bit more publicity.
....However, partly due to the diligence of Dr Ameyo Stella Adadevoh, who identified Patrick Sawyer as having the virus and stopped him from spreading it, Ebola has been officially defeated.
Dr Adadevoh later died from the virus alongside other medical staff who refused to let Mr Sawyer leave the hospital.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-29682325
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30666265
"The Royal Free Hospital said it was sorry to announce that the condition of Pauline Cafferkey has gradually deteriorated over the past two days"
I can't imagine the hospital would release that if they thought she had much hope of recovery.
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>>I can't imagine the hospital would release that if they thought she had much hope of recovery.
It seems so unfair that someone who goes and helps others is stuck by the same disease.
I understand that the prognosis is not good, but we can only wish her luck.
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>> >>I can't imagine the hospital would release that if they thought she had much hope
>> of recovery.
>>
>> I understand that the prognosis is not good, but we can only wish her luck.
>>
Your wishes.
Ebola nurse no longer critically ill
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30783537
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I heard that just now on the radio. Good to know. Her family must be so relieved.
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Indeed, great news for all concerned.
I heard somewhere though that the best cure is toast. Toast with marmalade in the morning, toast with cheese for lunch, toast with Marmite in the evenings.
It doesn't actually have any medical benefits but you can slide it under the door.
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>> Indeed, great news for all concerned.
>>
>> I heard somewhere though that the best cure is toast. Toast with marmalade in the
>> morning, toast with cheese for lunch, toast with Marmite in the evenings.
>>
>> It doesn't actually have any medical benefits but you can slide it under the door.
Pity they can't cure memory problems in the elderly.
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=17939&m=396268
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Knew I'd heard it somewhere.
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>> >> >>I can't imagine the hospital would release that if they thought she had much
>> hope
>> >> of recovery.
Hope you don't mind that she asked for a second opinion there doc.
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>>Hope you don't mind that she asked for a second opinion there doc.
Hopefully she's now well on the mend.
I wonder how much the novel treatments help the recovery - pretty difficult to do a proper randomised trial: I think anyone would be tempted to take the treatment rather than forego it in her situation.
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>> I wonder how much the novel treatments help the recovery - pretty difficult to do
>> a proper randomised trial
Well you are not going to get many volunteers are you.
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>> Well you are not going to get many volunteers are you.
>>
I'd be willing to nominate a few people.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30666265
>> "The Royal Free Hospital said it was sorry to announce that the condition of Pauline
>> Cafferkey has gradually deteriorated over the past two days"
>>
>> I can't imagine the hospital would release that if they thought she had much hope
>> of recovery.
While I'm no more optimistic of her recovery than you I'm more glass half full. As bulletin says, next 48hrs are key.
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"While I'm no more optimistic of her recovery than you I'm more glass half full. "
Yes, there's nothing as confidence-inspiring as a 'glass is half-empty' doctor. My old doc used to say "yeeerrss, werrrll, we've all got to die some day". Gawd, he was useless!
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My old doc used
>> to say "yeeerrss, werrrll, we've all got to die some day". Gawd, he was useless!
>>
He was perfectly correct though !
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"He was perfectly correct though !"
Yes, like the elderly person's observation in the original post - apart from the 'god' bit.
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This one's a bit close for my liking.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30668872
Although it's 30 miles up the road from me, I do have relatives who live in Swindon.
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Deleted. Same as a comment further up!
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 3 Jan 15 at 21:57
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I wonder how much these volunteers were paid to go to an Ebola active area?
And how much of an inducement it was?
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In response to bathtub tom asking how much they get paid.. I just came across this
NHS nurses volunteering to help tackle ebola in West Africa will receive pay for up to two months while they are away, triple the usual period they would be eligible, due to the “exceptional†nature of the outbreak.
(from www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice/specialisms/infection-control/exclusive-nhs-nurses-get-two-months-pay-for-ebola-volunteer-work/5075918.article )
I don't see any mention of any other payments.
EDIT that's funny, first time I looked it was a whole long article but now it's just a short headline, as I'm not a subscriber.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 5 Jan 15 at 17:26
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>> Pauline Cafferkey has recovered sufficiently to be discharged from from hospital:
>>
>> www.scotsman.com/news/health/ebola-nurse-pauline-cafferkey-makes-full-recovery-1-3670222
>>
Good news.
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Seeing that the death rate for malaria is in the region of one hundred times greater than that for ebola, shouldn't we be putting proportionately more effort into reducing deaths from malaria?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria
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>> Seeing that the death rate for malaria is in the region of one hundred times
>> greater than that for ebola,
No its not, the number of total deaths is higher, but the rate of death from those who get it is hundred of times lower. In short its a very common disease with a generally good prognosis and treatment.
Ebola is fatal in most cases and if it was carried by mozzies the world population would be zero by now.
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The rate we're going it won't be long before this forum population will be Zero.
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"Ebola is fatal in most cases and if it was [sic] carried by mozzies the world population would be zero by now"
Is that an oxymoron?
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>> Is that an oxymoron?
No
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A lack of oxy moron, then?
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>> A lack of oxy moron, then?
>
eventually
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>>Ebola is fatal in most cases and if it was [sic] carried by mozzies the world population would be zero by now
>> Is that an oxymoron?
No it's just wrong.
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>> >> Seeing that the death rate for malaria is in the region of one hundred times
>> >> greater than that for ebola,
>> No its not,
O.K. I should have said "death toll", not "death rate".
The import of my post is sound.
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For some reason the material I have seen seems to deny the aerosol path for infection. It's implied as a source by the use of respiratory protection but the press States that direct contact is required with fluids/discharges.
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>> For some reason the material I have seen seems to deny the aerosol path for
>> infection. It's implied as a source by the use of respiratory protection but the press
>> States that direct contact is required with fluids/discharges.
AIUI, unlike influenza or common cold, there's no aerosol path in the 'coughs and sneezes' sense while disease is incubating. OTOH once the patient is at final stage of uncontrolled vomiting, diarrhoea and bleeding airborne transmission is possible.
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"there's no aerosol path in the 'coughs and sneezes' sense while disease is incubating. "
And do we know exactly how Pauline Cafferkey caught it?
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>> "there's no aerosol path in the 'coughs and sneezes' sense while disease is incubating. "
>>
>> And do we know exactly how Pauline Cafferkey caught it?
I would guess all the support teams currently working out there would like to know that as well
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By direct bodily contact with infected body fluids would be the answer. Quite when and how are no doubt under investigation. It is not an airborne virus.
www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/qas.html
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An interesting link, cgn, but it doesn't say airborne spread is not possible. The article says there is no evidence, which is not evidence there is no airborne vector.
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>> And do we know exactly how Pauline Cafferkey caught it?
Do we need to know exactly? She was helping care for Ebola patients and she got infected. There was always a risk these brave carers could contract the disease.
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>> >> And do we know exactly how Pauline Cafferkey caught it?
>>
>> Do we need to know exactly? She was helping care for Ebola patients and she
>> got infected. There was always a risk these brave carers could contract the disease.
Yes we need to know, the medical staff out there need to know, because if they don't they wont be allowed to go out there again.
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But we know how this is transmitted. We don't know how exactly she got it. Probably because procedure was not followed for example. She had to have been in contact with an infected patient despite wearing protective clothing.
What we'll never know is what failure (protocol or protective clothing) was responsible.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 4 Jan 15 at 22:37
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>> But we know how this is transmitted. We don't know how exactly she got it.
>> Probably because procedure was not followed for example. She had to have been in contact
>> with an infected patient despite wearing protective clothing.
>>
>> What we'll never know is what failure (protocol or protective clothing) was responsible.
We need to know. They need to know. If she followed protocol and it failed they need to know why, if barrier protection failed they need to know why and how. More medical staff die if there is a systemic failure.
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I don't think I got my message across. Something went wrong and we need to understand what it might have been. Chances are we will never know in this particular instance. How could we? We was in Africa until recently. Upon return to the UK she/we find out she contracted Ebola.
Now if she/we knew she had at the point of infection....
How someone can work out at what point the processes failed her I have no idea. Do we need to try to figure it out? Absolutely. Can we? Probably not. Hence my comment of does it make a difference.
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"Do we need to know exactly?"
Er - yes - I think it's pretty important to have some idea - don't you??? After all, it might prevent further deaths to health-workers.
I attended a lecture some 35 years ago at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine on the twin topics of Ebola and 'Green Monkey Disease' (Marburg Virus Disease) which produces similar symptoms. It was said then, that there were a lot of unanswered questions; there still are. The newsmedia and the politicians would like to think that there are straight answers, but the virologists will tell you otherwise.
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"It was said then, that there were a lot of unanswered questions; there still are. The newsmedia and the politicians would like to think that there are straight answers, but the virologists will tell you otherwise."
What are these facts that the news media and politicians are conspiring to keep from us then?
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"What are these facts that the news media and politicians are conspiring to keep from us then?"
Where did you get that from?
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OK
Can you clarify
"The newsmedia and the politicians would like to think that there are straight answers"
Why would they like to think like that ?
What purpose does such alleged thinking have.
Why do Virologists believe there are no straight answers. Do not scientists believe in straight answers?
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>> "The newsmedia and the politicians would like to think that there are straight answers"
>>
>> Why would they like to think like that ?
>>
>> What purpose does such alleged thinking have.
It's a paradigm thing for them isn't it. Every problem can be portrayed in a condemnatory headline in media, summarised in a soundbite and solved by a new law pronounced by politicians.
>> Why do Virologists believe there are no straight answers. Do not scientists believe in straight
>> answers?
They would love straight answers but science tells us there are often ifs, buts and new discoveries.
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Straight answers are honest answers. You can give a straight answer that is qualified or complex. Scientist deal in the known facts. They give straight answers. That is the nature of science
There is no reason to believe that politicians are not telling us the truth about Ebola or that there are fact about the disease that have not been revealed. The link in my previous link provided by the US government scientific advisors is both clear and straightforward.
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>> Straight answers are honest answers.
"Simple answers" was how I read it in the context.
>>
>> There is no reason to believe that politicians are not telling us the truth about
>> Ebola or that there are fact about the disease that have not been revealed.
Did anybody say that? I'm not sure it follows though that politicians are giving straight answers. To give a simple answer when the truth is much more complicated is not to give a straight answer.
Bromp is right about the politicians' paradigm - which also afflicts big business leaders (who are also politicians, whatever they would like to think).
When did you last hear a politician say that there was no clear right answer to a problem? The nearest to that you will get is probably somebody like Frank Field, and people like him are in absolutely no danger of becoming party leaders.
>> link in my previous link provided by the US government scientific advisors is both clear
>> and straightforward.
Well, they aren't politicians. But they are chosen by politicians who like the answers they come up with.
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"Do not scientists believe in straight answers?"
Sorry, I've been delayed in getting back to the keyboard; the thread has moved on, so I will answer this last point.......
Scientists would like give straight answers (i.e. simple) answers, and they come under a great deal of pressure to give categorical answers - pressure from the media, from politicians, from management, from their wretched marketing departments (I know this from experience). But this isn't always possible - even Richard Dawkins, when pressed, will admit that there is a teeny, weeny, weeny chance that there really is a god - he just hasn't been presented with any evidence yet.
These days, medical science tries to help by giving statistics with answers to questions so if, for example, I ask the doc if my arthritic thumb basal joint can be repaired, he will say something like 'There's a 50% chance that it can be repaired, 30% that a procedure will make no difference and a 20% chance that you will be worse off than before.
Hence, I feel extremely uncomfortable with definitive statements (albeit relayed by the press) like 'Ebola cannot be spread in aerosol form' ......... followed by a report saying that we do not know how Pauline Cafferkey became infected with the virus.
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Precisely. If the virus is present in body fluids it's also present in ejecta/aerosols.
www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/human-transmission.html
How much is required to infect (see studies in animals) is not stated.
"Summary
EVD among healthcare personnel and other persons is associated with direct contact with infected persons (or the bodies of persons who have died from EVD) and direct contact with body fluids from EVD patients. CDC infection control recommendations for U.S. hospitals, including recommendations for standard, contact, and droplet precautions for general care, reflect the established routes for human-to-human transmission of EVD and are based on data collected from previous EVD outbreaks in Africa in addition to experimental data. Airborne transmission of EVD among humans has never been demonstrated in investigations that have described human-to-human transmission although hypothetical concerns about airborne transmission of EVD have been raised.3,10"
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>> In short its a very common disease with a generally good prognosis and treatment.
Unless you happen to be one of the 400,000 sub-Saharan under-5s that it kills annually.
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It s a strange world where millions of young lives could be saved by the expenditure of comparatively small amounts of money on simple things like mosquito nets and vaccines and the same time huge amounts of money are spent on developing drugs that extend elderly cancer victims lives by a few weeks. The answer of course is there is a lot of money to be made in the latter but none in the former.
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>> nd the same time huge amounts of money are spent on developing drugs that extend elderly
>> cancer victims lives by a few weeks. The answer of course is there is a lot of money to be
>> made in the latter but none in the former.
Or the cancer victims trialling/trying drugs might lead us to discover cures. So not the same thing IMO.
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Its about time we in the West with our expensive health systems started to realise that there is not a cure for everything and that ever increasing expenditure reaps ever reducing benefits. We are not immortal. We are all going to die. Evolution has programmed us to survive to bring up our children and assist in the upbringing of our grandchildren. After that we are programmed to self destruct.
In a sane a sane and logical world we should be using our our medical knowledge and money to assist those who could easily benefit from it and rather than pursuing "cures" for what is effectively old age'
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I've always thought that once you have the malaria parasite you never completely get rid of it. And if that's the case, I've had it for more than 65 years. It was quite nasty in childhood, but not as nasty as the tincture of quinine which was the (fairly ineffective) treatment in those days. Now there are modern variants, pills you take prophylactically. But the symptoms would recur, in weakish form, every time I travelled below the Mason-Dixon line or whatever they call it.
Ebola is obviously worse, but easier to avoid unless you're a gung-ho medico in one of its hotspots. Thank goodness I'm too old to go down there now.
Aids is yet another matter. A lot of Africa travellers including me got a bit of a scare when it first surfaced. Antibiotics will kill secondary bacterial infections but not HIV. They say you can't get it from insect bites but I'm not totally convinced.
Sexual hygiene is a good idea. What that really means is no sex please we're British. Sad but true.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 5 Jan 15 at 00:02
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West Africans believe the kola nut - a hard white-fleshed nut that turns orange, the colour of quinine tincture, when chewed - is a specific against malaria. It's also intensely bitter, like quinine, so it may contain some natural form of quinine.
No one has ever confirmed this to me though. Doctors tend to be cagey about a lot of things.
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>> I've always thought that once you have the malaria parasite you never completely get rid
>> of it.
The Brother out law got it while doing VSO in Sudan 1981-4. Can still recur occasionally.
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>> Can still recur occasionally.
Yup, and even 50 years later. You hope it's just a cold but you sweat very heavily at night and feel a bit knackered next day. No big deal because you're used to it.
Good for the figure too of course.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 12 Jan 15 at 23:02
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Ebola - Bromptonaut
