www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29485405
Sad news, if it's confirmed. One of the best, someone who CARED ! RIP.
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The sooner these Ba****** are blown off of the face of the Earth the better. Rest in Peace good man.
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A truly GOOD man. Volunteering to work away for home to assist people not of his race or faith. I am appalled by this pointless savagery.
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These people are truly despicable.
George Galloway MP has got it right "The Isis murder of Alan Henning is a depraved Satanic act committed by devils in human form. It is a desecration of all that is holy."
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Of all the terrible stories from the media recently, this one hit me hardest. I don't mean the word to demean when I say that he struck me as being the finest type of big hearted bloke.
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We'll based on the reactions here, and around the world all I can say is that IS have achieved everything they wanted with this action.
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>> We'll based on the reactions here, and around the world all I can say is
>> that IS have achieved everything they wanted with this action.
>>
>>
>>
Precisely. It might seem ludicrous to some to compare ISIS to Clarkson but in this case there is a parallel; the more outrageous the stunt, the more publicity is gained. Every re-post, like or comment on social media is the equivalent of sticking up an election poster in your window.
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>> We'll based on the reactions here, and around the world all I can say is
>> that IS have achieved everything they wanted with this action.
At the same time, it must lose them support from some of those who would otherwise be broadly sympathetic to the establishment of a an Islamic caliphate. Support for IS was identified with opposition to Assad, especially by wealthy influencers in Saudi and Qatar, and they must now be concerned about where that has led.
The worrying thing is the support from some young western Muslims, hundreds of whom seem willing to go and be jihadists. It can't be satisfactory not to understand that, I certainly don't, it seems an excessive response to a simple hatred of infidels.
But IS can only have got where it is with the aid of sacks full of money. Cutting off that support is presumably as much of a focus as bombing them out of existence.
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Mrs Henning was asked "Was he in the wrong place at the wrong time?" She replied "No, he was in the right place doing the right thing".
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>> The sooner these Ba****** are blown off of the face of the Earth the better.
>> Rest in Peace good man.
>>
They would only be replaced by another bunch of nutters, as the 9/11 outfit has been. The Taliban and alqaeda have been replaced by IS after they were bombed although they are still around.
You need to get at the funding that comes from oil money in the Middle East, ie. Western oil consumption, which basically is you and me filling up our cars.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 4 Oct 14 at 09:32
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Whilst broadly agreeing with the military strikes as retribution for what they have visited on the people that they are oppressing - ironically in the long run it achieves nothing at all other than act as a recruiting sergeant for more dis-affected young men, especially, it seems, ginger haired white men from the UK.
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I was thinking something very similar Rob. While my first, perhaps natural, instinct favours instant and terrible retribution, I fear that will potentially more take place on the streets than in a controlled official manner.
There is trouble coming from this. As always those who least deserve it will suffer the most.
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>> a recruiting sergeant for more dis-affected young men, especially, it seems, ginger haired white men from the UK.
People think of British jihadis as being 'disaffected' from society. Actually they are products of the education system as it has become: deeply ignorant, more or less feral and imbued with a largely imaginary class resentment. All started with leftist ideas of education in the sixties coming from well-meaning, learned, essentially thick people, but still going today.
The main motive is to commit brutal acts, satisfying in themselves to brutalized individuals and feeding their sense of self-importance. It's a tragedy and very sinister. Perhaps it will die down eventually, but how long will that take? There's virtually nothing the authorities can do to make people see sense, since they have been educating people to be senseless for decades.
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There is a consensus among the three Westminster political parties that bombing the crap out of a few Jihadis will win the war.
Well - it won't.
The only war actually WON by bombing was when the USA dropped two A-Bombs on Japan.
Boots on the ground, supported by air-power, is the only real answer - and those boots should be provided by the Middle Eastern countries in whose backyard this mess is located.
If that happens, Western aid in the form of intelligence (satellites & similar) and other back-up would be helpful and should be offered.
Our government is not likely to make the streets of our country safer by this bombing, it is likely to make them less safe, given our involvement in this "war without an exit strategy".
Last edited by: Roger. on Sat 4 Oct 14 at 13:22
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>> There is a consensus among the three Westminster political parties that bombing the crap out
>> of a few Jihadis will win the war.
I hope that's not the case and I don't think it is. ISIS will be defeated when it runs out of money. Preventing it profiting from control of oil supplies, including with military action, not paying ransoms, and cutting off donations from Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar would be a good start.
The purpose of any intervention should be to contain and frustrate ISIS and starve it of support, political and financial, until it crumbles and self destructs. Addressing the apparent appeal of ISIS to young impressionable people across Europe would also be a good idea.
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>> Addressing the apparent appeal of ISIS to young impressionable people across Europe would also be a good idea.
Yes.
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>> >> Addressing the apparent appeal of ISIS to young impressionable people across Europe would also
>> be a good idea.
>>
>> Yes.
Absolutely but that means of address are important. Needs more hearts/minds stuff and less emphasis on threats to passports and nationality.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 4 Oct 14 at 14:16
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I cannot think of any conflict which has ultimately been resolved by superior force and violence.
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Can't disagree with that either AC. Trouble is the weak minded want something to believe in, they want to belong in a way that "normal" society won't let them for various reasons. Not much difference between your average EDL thug and the radicalised white "islamic"
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What has hit me about this is there is a good chance I have been in the back of his cab, a lot of my mates live in Salford and I often go round to one of my mates and get a taxi into the city centre for a night out. It hits hard because he was just an ordinary bloke just like the rest of us.
I just hope this and other recent events doesn't cause problems for the vast majority of muslims in this country who hate what is going on.
What worries me as well is how long before they start kidnapping people in this country?
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>>
>> What worries me as well is how long before they start kidnapping people in this
>> country?
>>
Holding a hostage in this country for anything more than a very short length of time is virtually impossible and guaranteed to end in either handcuffs or a body bag.
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>> What worries me as well is how long before they start kidnapping people in this
>> country?
They wont, they cant, they don't have the facilities or the circumstances in place to do that, and anyway the best thing we can do is get on with our lives and not give a worry or a hoot about who does what to us, just like we did in the blitz, the IRA bombing campaign, and the tube bombings.
Ignore them and they fail.
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Alan Henning was clearly a good man there's no real doubt about that ...he was though, sadly, a somewhat naive one as well, if not foolish.
It wasn't at all wise to go there.
The other thing is, unless I've missed it, there hasn't been a great deal of open support from the friends or colleagues who he travelled there with. I would have thought some vocal back up from those ordinary, normal, peaceful Muslim people who could testify to what a straightforward, supportive, big hearted chap he was might have helped a tiny bit.
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There have been quite a few they were on the news. Theres a big section on Teletext and I thinks its online as well.
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>> The other thing is, unless I've missed it, there hasn't been a great deal of
>> open support from the friends or colleagues who he travelled there with. I would have
>> thought some vocal back up from those ordinary, normal, peaceful Muslim people who could testify to what a straightforward, supportive, big hearted chap he was might have helped a tiny bit.
>>
You're right WP.
I trust none of them no matter what they say.
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>>I trust none of them no matter what they say.
You know that thing that I'm not allowed to say about anybody? Well, if it were otherwise I'd be saying it about you.
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... I would have thought some vocal back up from those ordinary, normal, peaceful Muslim people who could testify to what a straightforward, supportive, big hearted chap he was might have helped a tiny bit.
>>
Have you seen the second video on this newspaper webpage?
tinyurl.com/na5q74f
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>> Alan Henning was clearly a good man there's no real doubt about that ...he was
>> though, sadly, a somewhat naive one as well, if not foolish.
>>
>> It wasn't at all wise to go there.
>>
>> The other thing is, unless I've missed it, there hasn't been a great deal of
>> open support from the friends or colleagues who he travelled there with. I would have
>> thought some vocal back up from those ordinary, normal, peaceful Muslim people who could testify
>> to what a straightforward, supportive, big hearted chap he was might have helped a tiny
>> bit.
You either missed, or have deliberately ignored for some agenda, all the vocal backup and support for Alan Henning from every strata (even the radical) of muslim society around the uk and world. Even Iranian clerics.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 4 Oct 14 at 20:51
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>> You either missed, or have deliberately ignored for some agenda, all the vocal backup and support for Alan Henning from every strata (even the radical) of muslim society around the uk and world. Even Iranian clerics.
Yes, Zero is right and MD is very wrong.
I used to go to those parts doing semi-committed campaigning journalism, supporting causes visibly in a naive and unprofessional way. I have some experience of the terrain and the people you find there. Most are cool, some are true salt of the earth.
The world has changed a bit since then, but even so I think Alan Henning was very unlucky to meet some genuine bad guys when he didn't have protection.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 4 Oct 14 at 21:41
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>> Alan Hemming was very unlucky to meet some genuine bad guys when he didn't have protection.
His misfortune was to be supporting the 'wrong' sort of Syrians in a complex ethno religious civil war.
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>> His misfortune was to be supporting the 'wrong' sort of Syrians in a complex ethno religious civil war.
The 'wrong' sort of Syrians, if they were Syrians, were the guys who killed him, not the ones he was supporting. But you're right, it was a risky place to go. The places I went to weren't nearly that risky. And in risky areas one always had armed protection.
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>> The 'wrong' sort of Syrians, if they were Syrians, were the guys who killed him,
>> not the ones he was supporting. But you're right, it was a risky place to
>> go. The places I went to weren't nearly that risky. And in risky areas one
>> always had armed protection.
I meant his offence in the eyes of those who killed him. Both Syria and Iraq' s civil wars are to a large extent between different ethnicities/sects within Islam. It's not helpful that both conflicts are portrayed in west as being 'Militant' Islam v Others.
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It's
>> not helpful that both conflicts are portrayed in west as being 'Militant' Islam v Others.
>>
>>
It's not only unhelpful it's downright confusing.It was bad enough when it was simply Sonny and Cher or whatever the two main ones call themselves, but now there seem to be a good half dozen others too. It's almost as if the non-Conformists have joined up with the main Crusade.
I've long been of the opinion that most of these spats have more in common with our own Orangemen and Republicans than they have to do with Allah versus unbelievers.
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>> You either missed, or have deliberately ignored for some agenda, all the vocal backup and
>> support for Alan Henning from every strata (even the radical) of muslim society around the
>> uk and world. Even Iranian clerics.
>>
If you are saying there's been widespread support for Mr Hemming from the people who went with him... and I've missed it.. perhaps you could post a link.
I can confirm there's no 'agenda' just my honestly held viewpoint, you know, the one I'm perfectly entitled to have.
If I've missed a load of things, because of my limited perusal of the news coverage, then I'll happily change my view, if proven otherwise...
..over to you.
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>> If I've missed a load of things, because of my limited perusal of the news
>> coverage, then I'll happily change my view, if proven otherwise...
I have no intention of searching back through the last three to four weeks TV, radio and press coverage, tho how you missed it is beyond me and I certainly don't have to prove it to you.
You are of course entitled to your view as we are are all free to question, ignore and condemn it, as (as you freely admit) uniformed.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 4 Oct 14 at 23:25
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>>uniformed.
Perhaps. Although I might have gone with "uninformed".
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>> I have no intention of searching back through the last three to four weeks TV,
>> radio and press coverage, tho how you missed it is beyond me and I certainly
>> don't have to prove it to you.
>>
>> You are of course entitled to your view as we are are all free to
>> question, ignore and condemn it, as (as you freely admit) uniformed.
>>
I think you have misinterpreted my post and point. Having Googled things, I cannot find the evidence you say is out there.
I wrote about THE PEOPLE HE TRAVELLED WITH. i.e. the local Muslim people who organised a charitable trip to alleviate suffering in Syria...
..and my point is, they organised the trip, he volunteered to help and he got kidnapped and ultimately killed 'on their watch' so to speak... and I have seen nothing of those people in the Press or news coverage..... e.g. them trying to appeal to fellow Muslims (albeit extremists) to show compassion to a good man who volunteered to help other people, regardless of race, religion etc, but in this case it was directly benefiting Muslim people. I think them piping up, possibly, might have done a little to help, possibly/probably not, but that was nevertheless my point.
You have posted about the plethora of people across the world who have condemned this, inc plenty of Muslims...'yes' I'm well aware of that, but that wasn't the issue.
Funny how you and others should assume the worst and jump straight to your conclusion though.
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Forgive me Westpig, but I believe at least one of the people who have spoken on his behalf was a Muslim organiser of that trip.
I'll look again and admit it if I'm wrong.
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>> Forgive me Westpig, but I believe at least one of the people who have spoken
>> on his behalf was a Muslim organiser of that trip.
>>
>> I'll look again and admit it if I'm wrong.
>>
You are right AC.
I've admitted so in my post at 0913... although it's not an apology in your style.
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>> Funny how you and others should assume the worst and jump straight to your conclusion
>> though.
yes funny that, why do you think that may be the case?
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>> yes funny that, why do you think that may be the case?
>>
Well that will be because some people in life are very quick to jump to conclusions on this subject matter ..and... think that if someone queries something and it has to do with race, then it's automatically a 'no-no' and the person doing the querying has an unpleasant ulterior motive.
Now some might, yet some might be curious about a subject and simply raise it.
I think that if there is an anomaly, something to be queried, then query it ..and it matters not whether it involves race or any other subject matter, as long as you keep or try to keep an open mind...
... and conversely, it can be as bad keeping something out of a conversation because of race, as it is unnecessarily putting it in, because you are treating a situation/ someone differently because of race.
Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 5 Oct 14 at 09:05
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>
>> ... and conversely, it can be as bad keeping something out of a conversation because
>> of race, as it is unnecessarily putting it in, because you are treating a situation/
>> someone differently because of race.
Nothing to do with some people having "previous" then?
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 6 Oct 14 at 01:26
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>> Nothing to do with some people having "previous" then?
>>
If you think I have 'previous' come out and say it, you are not normally shy.
I have regularly posted on many issues, inc those that involve similar issues to this one and am not afraid to raise points that people like you would prefer people like me to not to, simply because you think discussing such things are racist.
I do not.
I think there's no harm, in fact it's healthy to discuss things, to have them out in the open, that way you move forward and learn things.
In this case I posted something that was on my mind. I see no reason why I shouldn't have. I did know that the usual suspects would be taking a sharp intake of breath and finding fault with it .. however I'd like one of you to explain fully why you think I shouldn't have, you never know, you might convince me.
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>> >> Nothing to do with some people having "previous" then?
>> >>
>>
>> If you think I have 'previous' come out and say it, you are not normally
>> shy.
I think you have previous.
>> you to explain fully why you think I shouldn't have, you never know, you might
>> convince me.
I don't think so, your feelings are too deeply ingrained. Not even going to bother to try.
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>> I don't think so, your feelings are too deeply ingrained. Not even going to bother
>> to try.
Now that says a lot.
Here is a man who could pick an argument with himself... regularly (as I do) has great lengthy conversations on here on various subjects, some quite heated, some in great depth, etc..
...yet now can't be bothered?
Even if you truly thought I was not worthy of wasting your time on, there'd be others watching, surely?
Ever thought it could be you that's wrong?
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>> Ever thought it could be you that's wrong?
No, not in this case.
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>> If I've missed a load of things, because of my limited perusal of the news
>> coverage, then I'll happily change my view, if proven otherwise...
I've now looked at the video posted by 'johnboy' at 2025 on Sat 4th Oct... and am happy to state I was wrong, in that there is a public statement by the people who organised the trip.
I do however, think there was nothing wrong in my post and certainly nothing that needed 'condemning' in me raising the point, that someone else has now helpfully addressed.
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>> It wasn't at all wise to go there.
Sometimes, if you want to do good, you haveto do stuf that seems unwise.
>> The other thing is, unless I've missed it, there hasn't been a great deal of
>> open support from the friends or colleagues who he travelled there with. I would have
>> thought some vocal back up from those ordinary, normal, peaceful Muslim people who could testify
>> to what a straightforward, supportive, big hearted chap he was might have helped a tiny
>> bit.
>>
Suggest you 'listen again' to today's PM programme on BBC R4 and then reconsider those comments.
Alternatively NoM2R is right in 'calling' you for what is apparently a forbidden sin on this site.
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>> Suggest you 'listen again' to today's PM programme on BBC R4 and then reconsider those
>> comments.
What is a 'PM' programme? It might be helpful if you are to use initials that you explain what they mean.
I never listen to R4, so if I were to, which I won't, I wouldn't be doing so 'again'.
>>
>> Alternatively NoM2R is right in 'calling' you for what is apparently a forbidden sin on
>> this site.
NoFM2R addressed the comment to 'MD' not me...but please feel free to dive in if that's the way you feel.
For the record, I read the Daily Telegraph occasionally (don't have the time to read it every day as I used to), watch Sky News once a day, then BBC News when the adverts come on Sky.. and occasionally catch up with things on the BBC news via the Internet.
My comment is based on my perception having perused the above news sources. I did post "unless I've missed something". I acknowledge I may well have missed things, but to date, unless I notice otherwise the thoughts still stand, although as ever, I'm willing to be corrected.
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Massive support for Alan here in Manchester and our neighbour, Alan's home city of Salford.
Manchester Central Mosque held a service for him which was packed out, as did some other local Mosques.
A member of his aid group, a Muslim, had to curtail his interview on TV because he couldn't stop sobbing. Muslims interviewed at random in the street were all horrified by the murder and what's going on in Syria and Iraq.
An awful lot of love and respect being shown round these parts. If any one of these Isis chappies were to be found in Hankey Park, he's be torn to pieces...AK47 or not !
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>>
>> Massive support for Alan here in Manchester and our neighbour, Alan's home city of Salford.
>> Manchester Central Mosque held a service for him which was packed out, as did some
>> other local Mosques.
>>
>> A member of his aid group, a Muslim, had to curtail his interview on TV
>> because he couldn't stop sobbing. Muslims interviewed at random in the street were all horrified
>> by the murder and what's going on in Syria and Iraq.
Maybe in a warped way, his death might do some good.
It's a bit of a p.r. disaster for IS for a normal British man to go on a charitable trip to Syria to directly help Muslim people, then end up as he did.
If the horror of his death empowers the majority (and decent) Muslims to sing loud and long about how awful and wrong it is... and it is my perception that this has at times not been as vocal as it could have been.... then it's a good thing.
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>>a p.r. disaster
Not really. They weren't trying to be popular, they were trying to be scarey. Pretty successful, by their standards, I should imagine.
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>> Not really. They weren't trying to be popular, they were trying to be scarey. Pretty
>> successful, by their standards, I should imagine.
>>
Yes, you're right..to a point.. but they also need support: financial, logistical, political, etc.
They'd have been better off letting this one go and doing the same to some other poor sod.
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>> Not really. They weren't trying to be popular, they were trying to be scarey. Pretty
>> successful, by their standards, I should imagine.
>
>Yes, you're right..to a point.. but they also need support: financial, logistical, political, etc.
And not only will beheading people not harm that, in certain areas it will enhance it.
Or do you really think that there are people sitting there thinking "I am ok with your actions, ex4ecutiuions, kidnapping, raping, bombing, torturing and all the rest of it, but now you've executed a taxi driver I don't know or care about and who comes from a society I dislike, so I will no longer support you"?
Its not likely, is it.
Terrorists and similar seek attention. Whether that be from opposing forces, supporters, the world media or public outcry.
And they are getting it.
Some in the US believe that they triumphed over 9/11, failing to understand that every attack the US made, every change in security they made and every other action driven by 9/11, including memorials, only added further to the triumph of the terrorists.
By and large the tube bombings in London were a failure because nothing much changed for ordinary folk.
These people, rightly or wrongly, have certain beliefs that they hold strongly and that they kill in the name of. Does anybody really believe that can be bombed out of them?
Attacking them with so much publicity just changes the enemy from the bogeyman that ISIS tried to convince others existed and should be feared into a real and physical killing enemy that everybody can see.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 5 Oct 14 at 16:50
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>> Maybe in a warped way, his death might do some good.
>>
>> It's a bit of a p.r. disaster for IS for a normal British man to
>> go on a charitable trip to Syria to directly help Muslim people, then end up
>> as he did.
>>
>> If the horror of his death empowers the majority (and decent) Muslims to sing loud
>> and long about how awful and wrong it is... and it is my perception that
>> this has at times not been as vocal as it could have been.... then it's
>> a good thing.
>>
Perhaps. You must remember though that ISIS view that "Decent majority" with the same contempt as they do anyone else living in the West who does not subscribe to their warped ideology. What does need to happen is for those folk to finally have the courage of their convictions and expose the hate preachers and recruiting officers who have infiltrated their community, as well as those who either overtly or covertly bankroll ISIS.
I for one am not holding my breath in anticipation, since those good and decent folk are if anything more frightened of possible retribution than the rest of us, and with good reason.
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>>
>> > as well as those who either overtly or covertly bankroll ISIS.
>>
That ultimately means a costly and embarassing re-think on our relations with Saudi Arabia.
We have become so used to thinking they are the good guys in the region that we have gone dizzy from turning blind eyes to their covert support for extremists in other countries.
The ruling group are playing a very cynical and dangerous game of using their immense wealth to buy western aquiescence while they export extremism under the counter.
And of course we have armed them to the teeth.
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>> The ruling group are playing a very cynical and dangerous game of using their immense
>> wealth to buy western aquiescence while they export extremism under the counter.
>> And of course we have armed them to the teeth.
The house of Saud is huge with many major, and minor "princes" and much in house political shenanigans, and without doubt some factions within try to destabilise the region, but even they accept the danger of muslim extremists, like the IS caliphate, who need (and probably plan) to take and control Mecca. (Not for the first time in history)
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>> If the horror of his death empowers the majority (and decent) Muslims to sing loud
>> and long about how awful and wrong it is... and it is my perception that
>> this has at times not been as vocal as it could have been.... then it's
>> a good thing.
Is this good enough for you?
www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/05/isis-murder-alan-henning-british-muslim-community
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>> Is this good enough for you?
Yes, I'm really pleased.
Not sure what your point is though, mine is this sort of thing has been somewhat lacking in the past.
If it takes the death of Alan Henning to allow plenty in that community to rightly express their outrage, then it's a positive thing to come from something so negative, a unifier so to speak.
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>> >> Is this good enough for you?
>>
>> Yes, I'm really pleased.
>>
>> Not sure what your point is though, mine is this sort of thing has been
>> somewhat lacking in the past.
Your original point I thought was about lack of comment from those who'd organised the convoy together with a more general one about the alleged failure of the Islamic community to condemn these outrages in sufficiently robust terms. Admittedly I'd missed your post at 09:13 this morning where you acknowledged the points made in someone else's vid.
>> If it takes the death of Alan Henning to allow plenty in that community to
>> rightly express their outrage, then it's a positive thing to come from something so negative,
>> a unifier so to speak.
Condemnation has come many times before over outrages supposedly in name of Islam including particularly after the murder of Lee Rigby.
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@WP
PM is a well known news magazine programme broadcast daily at 5PM on BBC Radio 4. An evening counterpart to the morning Today programme. It's been on since you and I were children so I'm frankly amazed you've never heard of it.
I'm quite sure the various Imams and other Muslim locals, including his fellow taxi drivers, interviewed there and without exception condemning Alan's murder made themselves equally available to other news media.
Same voices and others were being broadcast again on early morning bulletins today on both Radio 4 and 5.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 5 Oct 14 at 09:43
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And me as well, never heard of PM either, I thought you'd mispelt PMQs.
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PM has only been running for 40 old years on the major speech channel of the BBC in the prime evening slot. Can't expect everyone discussing current affairs here to have heard of it. :-)
Who's is Eddie Mair?
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'speech channel' now there's a new phrase, or is it another thing never heard of I wonder?
Not surprised i've not heard if this 'PM' show. Only listen to my own music and the local radio station when in the car.
Never heard of him, I take it he's on this PM show?
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You should listen occasionally. Eddie Mair has a soft spoken and easy going style but he is a very skilled and perceptive interviewer. His interview a few years back wiht Boris Johnson was a classic. Boris clearly thought he was dealing with a light weight chat show presenter which he soon found to his cost he was not.
You m as we'll have seen Mair on TV. He hosted Newsnight occasionally and was much touted as Paxman's replacement but I think he h as his eyes on Humphrey's job when he finally retires from "Today"
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>> You should listen occasionally.
Thanks, but not really my cup of tea.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> PM has only been running for 40 old years on the major speech channel of
>> the BBC in the prime evening slot. Can't expect everyone discussing current affairs here to
>> have heard of it. :-)
Just goes to show you should never assume... and we are all different.
I have never in my life listened to Radio's 3,4 or 5.
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Give Radio 4 a try WP. Even if you're not especially into the current affairs slots, there are some really good plays and quizzes etc. Great station for a long drive if you're on your own.
Don't, whatever you do though, listen to more than two episodes of the Archers. It's like Heroin. You'll not be able to stop even though you know it's taking over your life !
;-)
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>> Give Radio 4 a try WP. Even if you're not especially into the current affairs
>> slots, there are some really good plays and quizzes etc. Great station for a long
>> drive if you're on your own.
>>
>>
I never thought I'd say this, but over the past twelve months I've become a Radio 4 man too. Best station on the air.
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>> I never thought I'd say this, but over the past twelve months I've become a
>> Radio 4 man too. Best station on the air.
>>
I wouldn't go that far, but I'm a convert too, although that has much to do with the demise of Radio 2 since Wogan left. Apologies for topic drift.
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>> Just goes to show you should never assume... and we are all different.
>>
>> I have never in my life listened to Radio's 3,4 or 5.
The words 'PM at 5pm' and the jingle/theme tune that went with the prog right up to the eighties were a fixture of any late afternoon journey with my Father. The jingle was played the other week creating an instant mental image of the back of a Vauxhall Victor, probably en-route to the Lake District where Easter and October half term were usually spent.
Radio in every room in my house with R4 or R5 are almost constantly on, to the near exclusion of TV.
As Runfer and RoR say there's a huge amount of stuff on 4. The Week in Westminster, From our Own Correspondent, Money Box and News Quiz/The Now Show flow through Saturday morning/early afternoon. Since stopping work I often catch interesting bits of Woman's Hour. The 'summer reliefs' for the normal 09:05 weekday slots have included some real gems, from relaxed interviews with retired politicos to short dramas based on transcripts of 19th century cases at the Old Bailey.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 5 Oct 14 at 12:58
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Re BBC Radio 4.
Plus 'Last Word' and 'Feedback'.
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>> There's virtually nothing the authorities can do
>> to make people see sense, since they have been educating people to be senseless for
>> decades.
>>
That's a very perceptive observation, AC.
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Perhaps the USA should send some fundamentalist Christians to fight fundamentalist Islamists?
Another lot of loonies joining the fighting over whose version of an invisible god is best!
Religion has a lot to answer for - all religions, I mean - from the Crusades onwards and probably before that.
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"Another lot of loonies"
If anyone has any doubt that the Christian religion is as bonkers as Islam, watch this programme; it was pointed out to me by my son who has inherited my atheism. The programme is about 1.5hrs long, so settle back with a glass of your favourite beverage.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0074qfn/arena-searching-for-the-wrongeyed-jesus
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>> Perhaps the USA should send some fundamentalist Christians to fight fundamentalist Islamists?
>>
>> Another lot of loonies joining the fighting over whose version of an invisible god is
>> best!
Nothing compared to ultra orthodox fundamentalist jews, who are now demanding that women and men are not allowed to walk on the same side of the street erecting barricades for the "men only" side.
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What is it with all these crackpots?
Why is there so much antipathy to the sexes mingling - is it a territorial/caveman thing, or just the need to be controlling (by males mostly)?
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>> What is it with all these crackpots?
>> Why is there so much antipathy to the sexes mingling - is it a territorial/caveman
>> thing, or just the need to be controlling (by males mostly)?
>>
That's about it. Religion is all about unquestioning obedience and knowing your place. And the best thing about it for those in positions of authority are that they are only answerable to a non-existent fantasy figure whose teachings they can interpret in any way they like, while the rest of us are answerable to them in various layers, women being firmly at the bottom in most if not all faiths.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sun 5 Oct 14 at 15:22
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Religion might be a load of crap to some people but not all religious people are nutcases are they?
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>> not all religious people are nutcases are they?
No they aren't. It could even be said that not all believers in religions can be described as 'religious people'. In fact most believers aren't 'religious' really. They are content to go along with the majority.
Of course many in Western Europe would today call themselves atheist or agnostic. Perhaps even a majority. It would be interesting to know the figures.
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UK 2011 census showed the following:
Despite falling numbers Christianity remains the largest religion in England and Wales in 2011. Muslims are the next biggest religious group and have grown in the last decade. Meanwhile the proportion of the population who reported they have no religion has now reached a quarter of the population.
In the 2011 Census, Christianity was the largest religion, with 33.2 million people (59.3 per cent of the population). The second largest religious group were Muslims with 2.7 million people (4.8 per cent of the population).
14.1 million people, around a quarter of the population in England and Wales, reported they have no religion in 2011.
The religion question was the only voluntary question on the 2011 census and 7.2 per cent of people did not answer the question.
Between 2001 and 2011 there has been a decrease in people who identify as Christian (from 71.7 per cent to 59.3 per cent) and an increase in those reporting no religion (from 14.8 per cent to 25.1 per cent). There were increases in the other main religious group categories, with the number of Muslims increasing the most (from 3.0 per cent to 4.8 per cent).
In 2011, London was the most diverse region with the highest proportion of people identifying themselves as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and Jewish. The North East and North West had the highest proportion of Christians and Wales had the highest proportion of people reporting no religion.
Knowsley was the local authority with the highest proportion of people reporting to be Christians at 80.9 per cent and Tower Hamlets had the highest proportion of Muslims at 34.5 per cent (over 7 times the England and Wales figure). Norwich had the highest proportion of the population reporting no religion at 42.5 per cent.
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"Norwich had the highest proportion of the population reporting no religion at 42.5 per cent."
I think they like to keep to the old ways
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>> "Norwich had the highest proportion of the population reporting no religion at 42.5 per cent."
>>
>>
>> I think they like to keep to the old ways
Witchcraft.
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>> UK 2011 census showed the following:
Thank you CGN. How very efficient of you.
The trends over time are as revealing as the basic figures.
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>>
>> Wales had the highest proportion of people reporting no religion.
>>
>>
That's surprising as the number of people I know here who are church goers seems a lot higher than when I lived in London. Maybe the Welsh believers are just more active in their beliefs?
I think many people who describe themselves as Christian do so for historical reasons just as I could classify myself as Catholic, though I have no religious beliefs at all.
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Wales had the highest proportion of people reporting no religion.
>>
That would change dramatically if "Rugby" was included on the list!
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>> Religion might be a load of crap to some people but not all religious people
>> are nutcases are they?
>>
>>
>>
Not nutcases at all. I come from an Irish Catholic family and some of them are quite sane, but whether or not you think there might be a creationist somewhere behind all this every form of organised religion means blindly following a belief formulated centuries ago by people without the scientific knowledge to explain everyday occurrences as simple as the weather.
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" not all religious people are nutcases are they?"
I believed in Santa Claus until I was about 5 or 6, but I don't think that made me a nutcase; misguided/misinformed/deluded maybe, but not a nutcase.
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WHAT! Are you telling me there is no such person as Santa Claus? :)
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>> WHAT! Are you telling me there is no such person as Santa Claus? :)
>>
Take no notice of him, he's just bitter because he doesn't get any presents.
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">> WHAT! Are you telling me there is no such person as Santa Claus? :)
Take no notice of him, he's just bitter because he doesn't get any presents."
Sometimes, I despair of you lot! ;-)
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I noticed there didn't seem to be a single Asian amongst the congregation for this man's memorial service.
I wonder how many Muslim taxi drivers there are in Salford?
Do you think he was only taking aid for Syrian Christians?
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>> I noticed there didn't seem to be a single Asian amongst the congregation for this
>> man's memorial service.
>>
>> I wonder how many Muslim taxi drivers there are in Salford?
>>
>> Do you think he was only taking aid for Syrian Christians?
FFS what exactly do the Muslim/Asian community have to do to keep you guys happy. Any number of Mr Henning's taxi driver colleagues have been interviewed in the media in varying states of grief.
I've previously referenced a long segment in yesterdays BBC Radio 4 News magazine programme in which his fellow taxi drivers gave fullsome tributes to him.
Maybe, just maybe, if the memorial service was christian/CofE in emphasis they were absent for exactly same reasons about understanding the protocol etc that might make you or I chary of attending a Mosque,
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I'm an atheist. My local mosques, Sikh temple, catholic and Anglican churches freely welcome all creeds - even me!
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>> I'm an atheist. My local mosques, Sikh temple, catholic and Anglican churches freely welcome all
>> creeds - even me!
I'm an atheist too but I attended CofE schools and am familiar with the routine of marriage, funeral Sunday service etc in the established church.
My local Catholic church may well welcome me. But that's a very different thing from my feeling confident coping with the protocols of their service. Same if I was asked to attend a Muslim funeral or memorial service in a Mosque
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I wonder how many memorial services you have been to where your only connection to the dead is that the murderer purported to be christian?
Because I assume you find it your duty to apologise in person for every sin committed by anybody in the name of Christianity?
Why should any particular Muslim in Salford, unconnected with Syria, attend anything just because the murderer purported to follow the same religion?
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I may have fallen victim to a despicable scam re a donation to an Alan Henning charity. A reliable friend of mine posted a link to an reasonably likely www. site, I went on line to donate some money via PayPal and got an email saying that they were not making the payment, while they investigated the site, and they will get back to me within 72 hours. I hope it works out OK, I wanted to give something that would benefit his charity work.
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I do hope it's ok, Wokes. I'll wait until the Manchester Evening News set something up...as they are bound to do.
I'll post here when they do.
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>> I noticed there didn't seem to be a single Asian amongst the congregation for this
>> man's memorial service.
Radio report of memorial service refers to multi cultural nature of attendees. Of the half dozen or so interviewed at least two had an Asian twangs to their northern accents. Don't forget as well that front of Church would likely by occupied by victim's family and the regular congregation who are likely to be white. Visitors might be at back and in side aisles.
Islam, in its mainstream form, is reported to recognise a kinship with the other two Abrahamic religions and to regard their adherents in a more positive light than unbelievers. It's possible however that some Imams might regard observance of non Islamic prayers/rites as a 'sin'.
Christian sects can have similar issues; the former Lord Chancellor, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, was, at least temporarily, kicked out of the Free Kirk after attending a Catholic memorial service.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 6 Oct 14 at 10:35
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At the moment, the world has two pressing problems, IS and Ebola
Hmmm, IS and Ebola, Ebola and IS........ Hmmm..... why not........?
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Sadly IS cannot be bombed, infected or beaten out of existence. Such organisations cannot be destroyed.
IS is now in the world and the world needs to work out how it is going to deal with that, and primarily how it will remove IS's justification for fighting, rather than adding to it.
Because whilst IS cannot be destroyed, it can be caused to decay.
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>>
>>
>> Radio report of memorial service refers to multi cultural nature of attendees.
>>
Do we now really have to carry out diversity assessments even at memorial services?
Perhaps we ought to be told how many representatives of the gay or other "communities" were present, and were they proportionate to the population as a whole?
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>> Perhaps we ought to be told how many representatives of the gay or other "communities" were present, and were they proportionate to the population as a whole?
This isn't about PC in general CP. A couple of posters here didn't think there were any 'ethnics' - obvious Muslims - in the memorial service, when actually there were, sitting modestly in the middle and back of the church.
Did anyone else notice that the second person in the queue to file past the coffin was a geezer with long red hair, wearing a bright yellow oilskin coat and gumboots with the tops turned down, some sort of nutter? (Nothing wrong with nutters. They have their feelings too, and if you aren't acquainted with any you are very retiring and inexperienced. I do hope there will be several at my funeral).
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>>I do hope there will be several at my funeral
At least there'll be the one in the coffin.
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Banging on the lid pretending to be alive...
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The cigarette smoke seeping out the side will be a clue....
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>> cigarette smoke seeping out the side
And the rest... they can't bust a stiff can they? YEEEE-hah!
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There's got to be a decent ditty there...'stiff' and 'spliff'.
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Not a big deal in the overall scheme of things, but it occurs to me that I and one or two others have been a bit offhand about what is, after all, a serious incident that must be traumatic for the unfortunate Henning's family.
Not pointing at anyone else, but I slightly regret starting the jokes.
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Multi faith memorial held today at British Muslim Heritage Centre in Manchester
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/12/alan-henning-service-manchester-remembered-hero-isis
I still doubt it will be enough for some here.
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>> I still doubt it will be enough for some here.
>>
Does it still rankle that 'some' even raise this sort of thing as a question in the first place?
That there are people out there that cannot understand why decent, straightforward people don't shout loudly 'not in my name' when the extremists do what they do.
There's been a shift in this country.. and the 'politically correct' mob are being knocked off their plinths. I am pleased.. and actually think it will do the race relations angle a power of good and will be for everyone's benefit.
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>>I still doubt it will be enough for some here.
And so it proves to be....
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>> And so it proves to be....
Saddened but not remotely surprised......
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>> >> And so it proves to be....
>>
>> Saddened but not remotely surprised......
>>
Sorry to disappoint you both...but... I was talking in generalities and in the same fashion as my original post.
I happen to think in this case that my wider concerns have been more than covered.
I'm please at that, I wish it to happen more often.
Edit...oh and you are both quite quick to judge.
Last edited by: Westpig on Mon 13 Oct 14 at 22:25
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>> Does it still rankle that 'some' even raise this sort of thing as a question
>> in the first place?
I'm not sure rankle is right word. Puzzle might be better
>> That there are people out there that cannot understand why decent, straightforward people don't shout
>> loudly 'not in my name' when the extremists do what they do.
But nobody expects me, white skinned Simon Mark, to shout 'not in my name'; it's a given. OTOH if my name was Shaheen Mohammed and I'm olive skinned I have say 'not in my name' at every verse end if I'm not to be seen as part of the problem.
>>
>> There's been a shift in this country.. and the 'politically correct' mob are being knocked
>> off their plinths. I am pleased.. and actually think it will do the race relations
>> angle a power of good and will be for everyone's benefit.
Only if you adopted the mtyh of 'political correctness' in the first place.
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"That should add fuel to your flames."
Er ...…. surely it's their human right to enslave women if that's their culture?
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>> I'm not sure rankle is right word. Puzzle might be better
Puzzled that some people don't see the world the same as you do?
>> But nobody expects me, white skinned Simon Mark, to shout 'not in my name'; it's
>> a given. OTOH if my name was Shaheen Mohammed and I'm olive skinned I have
>> say 'not in my name' at every verse end if I'm not to be seen
>> as part of the problem.
Classic put down. Choose an extreme end of an argument and use it as your angle. Rather poor show though for an educated debate.
If a weird sect of Christians were committing atrocities somewhere and you Simon Mark were living as a minority Christian in a country, then I'd like to think that you or the leaders of your community would want to openly disassociate yourself from the wrong doers.
Same principle for Shaheen Mohammed... and IMO his community has been too quite for a long time...although in fairness it is beginning to change.
>> Only if you adopted the mtyh of 'political correctness' in the first place.
Oh it's definitely not a myth. I can confirm 100% it exists, I had to work amongst it, it's a vile disease.
Last edited by: Westpig on Mon 13 Oct 14 at 22:34
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>> Only if you adopted the mtyh of 'political correctness' in the first place.
>Oh it's definitely not a myth. I can confirm 100% it exists, I had to work amongst it, it's a
>vile disease.
It certainly exists, and its certainly unpleasant and annoying. Although I think "vile" is a bit strong. I don't really think its as widespread as people would think though.
I often live as a minority, in race, nationality, religion and pretty much every other aspect.
I have never felt the need to stand up and disassociate myself from an act because it was carried out by a Brit or a Christian. Why on earth should I? Because some ignorant and ill educated people might think I was involved if I did not?
Stuff and nonsense. Just a convenient coat hook.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 13 Oct 14 at 22:51
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The public sector is awash with PC. People have made careers out of it.
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I know, I dealt with a lot of it including in the MOD, Ofcom, and what used to be the DTI. But it does seem to be largely focused within the public sector, and then pretty much in the service areas.
I encountered much less outside, although the BBC was pretty b***** awful.
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>> I know, I dealt with a lot of it including in the MOD, Ofcom, and
>> what used to be the DTI. But it does seem to be largely focused within
>> the public sector, and then pretty much in the service areas.
>>
>> I encountered much less outside, although the BBC was pretty b***** awful.
How exactly does this 'PC' manifest itself?
The public sector wields the power of the state to compel/coerce citizens.
In doing so it's (rightly) subject, via the Public Sector Equality Duty in the Equality Act 2010, to obligations that go beyond those of business and commerce. There were similar, but less explicit, duties under previous equalities legislation. Unfortunately, even after 30years, there was plenty of evidence that while being nodded to, those obligations were more breached than honoured.
Macpherson's report into the Stephen Lawrence investigation, while focussed on the Met Police, was a wake up call for the whole of government.
If that's created processes that some find irksome so be it; we couldn't carry on as we were.
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>> The public sector is awash with PC. People have made careers out of it.
I though you said we didn't have enough PCs?
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>> I have never felt the need to stand up and disassociate myself from an act
>> because it was carried out by a Brit or a Christian. Why on earth should
>> I?
You missed the point for once - the crimes under discussion were committed in the name of Islam and supposedly in accordance with Sharia, whether or not they were committed by Muslims.
I'm still not sure I'd expect other Muslims in other countries, who are clearly not IS, to be constantly and publicly dissociating themselves from it though. And if they did, those disposed to find fault with them would ask if they were protesting too much.
TBH, I think my instinct would be to keep my head down.
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>> I'm still not sure I'd expect other Muslims in other countries, who are clearly not
>> IS, to be constantly and publicly dissociating themselves from it though.
..and neither do I..but I do think religious leaders or community leaders should speak for the decent majority and ensure publicly that those acts are not done with the quiet agreement of the many.
>> TBH, I think my instinct would be to keep my head down.
>>
Human nature.
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>> ..and neither do I..but I do think religious leaders or community leaders should speak for
>> the decent majority and ensure publicly that those acts are not done with the quiet
>> agreement of the many.
There's not the remotest suggestion of that and those who think there is are would regard such condemnations as 'weasel words' and carry on regardless (see MD upthread).
A 'Comment is Free' piece from the Guardian sets out reasons why constantly harping on for such responses might be counter productive:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/08/sun-unite-against-isis-muslim-bigotry
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>>You missed the point for once
Careful, that's damned near a compliment.
Still, you raise a valid point, yet......;
I spend a reasonable amount of time in Argentina. Although I spent more there 10 years ago. Whatever we may feel, many of them see the whole Falklands/Malvinas episode as criminal and have a much more emotional and personal view of it than you might expect.
I have a view, but I keep it to myself. I understand very well the environment I am in, and its pretty much damned if you do and damned if you don't.
So, I mostly keep out of it.
I understand why that comparison is not wholly valid, but its all I have. Perhaps a better illustration might be me living in South Carolina with the crimes carried out by the KKK largely frequently invoking the name of Christianity.
[As an aside, I did once see/hear a Texan KKK member tell an Apache [I think, Native American anyway] that if he didn't like it he should **** off back to his own country].
Anywhere else I have lived/worked as a minority, the relevant actions/behaviours have been historical.
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I live as a minority and you adapted and accepted the culture you live in.Not always easy when I was younger and working.Lots of people are Racist more than you think and sometimes the colour of your skin is irellevant.
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>> I have never felt the need to stand up and disassociate myself from an act
>> because it was carried out by a Brit or a Christian. Why on earth should
>> I? Because some ignorant and ill educated people might think I was involved if I
>> did not?
English football fans of the past?
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>> Classic put down. Choose an extreme end of an argument and use it as your
>> angle. Rather poor show though for an educated debate.
It wasn't meant as a put down and I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I really do see Shaheen/Simon scenario as what some here want. It certainly seems that the overt dissociative statements already made by Islamic organisations, the memorials and collections for Mr Henning's family are not enough for some of you.
>> If a weird sect of Christians were committing atrocities somewhere and you Simon Mark were
>> living as a minority Christian in a country, then I'd like to think that you
>> or the leaders of your community would want to openly disassociate yourself from the wrong
>> doers.
I don't think the minority/majority thing is particularly relevant. Hopefully the Archbishop of Canterbury, the leading RC Cardinals and he non-conformists would be dissociating too.
It also needs to be pointed out (again) that what's going on in Syria and Iraq is a multi-faceted civil war in which ISIS are not the only force claiming to be fighting for Islam. A year ago we regarded the Syrians against Assad as freedom fighters.
Another thought is that while the ISIS alliance is sticking together now it'd likely splinter and turn in on itself were it to 'win'.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 14 Oct 14 at 10:18
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>> It wasn't meant as a put down and I'm sorry if it seemed that way.
>> I really do see Shaheen/Simon scenario as what some here want. It certainly seems that
>> the overt dissociative statements already made by Islamic organisations, the memorials and collections for Mr
>> Henning's family are not enough for some of you.
I can't speak for others, but I've already said I've often spoken of generalities and am using Alan Henning's case as a stepping stone to discuss those generalities.... and that in this case I am more than satisfied with the response from the Islamic community.
However, as a whole, looking at the bigger picture, I am not. I feel they could do more.
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It's complicated. Chopping heads off is pretty clearly down the bad end of the scale, but a lot of it depends on which end of the telescope you are looking down - ask David Cameron, who has changed ends.
The peaceful British Muslims are not a 'community' and not responsible. They do not need to make excuses or disown IS (though I'd guess that many do, but how would we know?).
Moral Maze (R4) on this subject (ISIS) has just finished. The point was made that ISIS itself is far from monolithic and elements are believed to be dissenting from some of its actions.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 15 Oct 14 at 20:54
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Alan Henning - MD
