Our daughter and SIL are currently looking at the possibility of a boarding school education for our grandchildren.
If (quite a big if, in these budget cutting days) available, it would be largely, but not fully, funded by the army under the continuity of education scheme.
This would see the boy to GCSE , but the lass only to age 14, when our SIL is due to leave the pongoes.
This is causing some anguish/heart-searching as we can all see our girl having to switch from a frankly privileged milieu, to a state comp at age 14.
Having been to a boarding school (state - so free tuition, for my final years of schooling) as service brat myself, I think know just how beneficial boarding can be for some young people.
What do other members think?
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>> What do other members think?
Entirely depends on the school. And as far as moving the girl from boarding school to state school at the age of 14 thats a real no no.
>> Having been to a boarding school (state - so free tuition, for my final years
>> of schooling) as service brat myself, I think know just how beneficial boarding can be
>> for some young people.
Its changed in the last 100 years. I think ritual beatings and fagging has nearly died out now.
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I would say yes, on the basis that the education should be better (even if the daughter has to swap to a comp later), and don't we all want the best for our kids? If the daughter is well rounded she may even benefit from a mix of education?
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>Its changed in the last 100 years. I think ritual beatings and fagging has nearly died out now.
Fagging still happened at the grammar I went to and that was only, errrm, a few years ago. Ritual beatings were optional for most boys.
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That's a very, very difficult question. I taught in both state day schools and a day/boarding Independent school for 40 years.
There are so many variables both on the school side and the children's side.
I'll have a think and see if I can compose a helpful reply tomorrow!
P
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There are State boarding schools too where you only pay for the boarding element - might be more affordable for the last 2 years.
eg Gordons in Surrey (patron HM the Queen).
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>> There are State boarding schools too where you only pay for the boarding element -
>> might be more affordable for the last 2 years.
>> eg Gordons in Surrey (patron HM the Queen).
Good school, difficult to get a place.
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>> >> There are State boarding schools too where you only pay for the boarding element
>> -
>> >> might be more affordable for the last 2 years.
>> >> eg Gordons in Surrey (patron HM the Queen).
>>
>> Good school, difficult to get a place.
>>
Yep, there's also Christ's Hospital (the Bluecoat School), where fees are based on parental income, but it is (a) VERY selective, by exam and interview and vastly oversubscribed.
Most boarding schools, particularly the State grammar schools, only accept boarders from 11 years old, so placing both at the same time is a problem (No guarantee of army funding in 3 years time when Katie will be 11)
I have concerns about ceasing private boarding school at 14 to be thrown into a Comp!
Not only danger of resentment on the lass's side, but bullying treatment from her new fellows as she would be thought "posh". OTH she is a bright and clever kid and there are bursaries at the school they visited today: not guaranteed, of course.
The facilities at this particular school, having seen their promotional DVD, are nothing short of superlative, possibly among the best in the country!
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My kids had private education from 12-years-old. SWMBO was a teacher in the state sector, could see where they were going and because of what she was earning we could afford it - ironic, innit?
Dunno about boarding though, Gordunstoun didn't seem to do Charlie boy much good.
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It has been my great good fortune to go to eight schools of every conceivable type and social level. In the course of those ten years, from 8 to 18, I was teased or persecuted for being 'posh', for sounding lower-middle class, for looking foreign, even in one craphole full of ignoramuses for sounding foreign. None of that persecution lasted, and of course I learned early on that people are stupidly resistant to anything that seems strange to them in their benighted ignorance.
On the whole I got on with people and wasn't one of those sad inky victims of the majority. A bit - a lot - of variety is a real blessing if your mind is awake.
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I take it they've looked into the rules about CES? I know the rules got tightened up a couple of years ago. Quite allot of pongos were taking the p. I don't know their careers but I know we have to get it signed off by the drafters that we are likely to move around alot frequently. Cant say I know many at all that got CES, I think two.
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I went to a pretty well known private school, as did my brother, my father, my grandfather etc etc. We all did "ok" if you measure these things by qualifications I suppose. However, it did take me a while to wake up to the idea that Volvo estates weren't freely available to everyone's mum.
If there has been any lasting benefit, it might be that I regard myself as class neutral. I feel neither inferior nor superior to any other human being provided they conduct themselves equably in my company.
However, we deliberately broke the trend with our son who attends the local school, is very happy there, is achieving excellent grades and so far anyway seems a much more rounded personality at 14 than I could have claimed to be at his age.
Of course the school has a wide variety of personalities, some of whom might be seen as undesirable but he copes well enough with those by ignoring them when possible or sticking up for himself when necessary.
I suspect that he'll find it fairly easy to slot into adult society at any level when he's older.
Of course I hope so anyway.
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>> I went to a pretty well known private school, as did my brother, my father,
>> my grandfather etc etc. We all did "ok" if you measure these things by qualifications
I guess the head of year at Greyfriars never thought D'Bout Minor would end up driving a hearse around the country.
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>>...never thought D'Bout Minor would end up driving a hearse around the country.
Aye there's the truth ! But I suppose it's slightly preferable to being driven around in the back of one though.
;-)
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>> However, we deliberately broke the trend with our son who attends the local school, is
>> very happy there, is achieving excellent grades and so far anyway seems a much more
>> rounded personality at 14 than I could have claimed to be at his age.
We had no trend to break but both ours went to the local comp with results similar to those Runfer describes for his lad. Most good comps in good areas will be similar. City centres may be different.
One of Miss B's cohort joined the comp at 14 in circs similar to those Roger forsees for his granddaughter though in that case there was a parental separation in the mix too. The school knew the circs and made sure she was well supported. The lass coped OK and is now at Uni (coincidentally in same city Miss B and her b/f pitched up on account of his grad trainee-ship) doing a teaching course. I suspect the parental split and both Mum and Dad's progress in and out of subsequent relationships had more effect.
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50+ years ago about 6 left for fee paying schools - 1 on a scholarship and 5 paying. The scholarship boy did well BUT the others faired less well - in fact miserably.
My 3 kids went to the local schools with great results, Uni and now hold down responsble jobs. 3 x nephew & nieces were fee paying shools - again did well @ school & Uni.
Good support from parents and, if needs be, a tutor for an hour a week in a shaky subject can work wonders - £30 for an hour rather than £250 / week as a dayboy/girl.
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Maybe those who went to boarding school would care to comment.
I would ask the questions. Do you want to make the most of those precious years watching your children grow up? Is it all about education? Or am I being selfish?
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I loved boarding school.
Had we the money, not only would our daughter have gone, but also now we'd pay in full for the grandchildren.
I used to really look forward to holidays to see my parents and my sister, but equally I used to love going back into school at the end of holidays.
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>> However, we deliberately broke the trend with our son who attends the local school, is
>> very happy there, is achieving excellent grades and so far
>>
No offence old boy, but don't all but the dumbest kids get top grades these days??
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>> No offence old boy, but don't all but the dumbest kids get top grades these
>> days??
No
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>> No offence old boy, but don't all but the dumbest kids get top grades these
>> days??
>No
Well, unless the emphasis on the three Rs has changed in the last 20 years you are sadly mistaken Bromp.
In the early 90s I spent two years recruiting young grads into a new team I was leading at my employer and had literally hundreds of CVs cross my desk. The standard of English was absolutely appalling, below 11-plus standard when I was at school. Most of them went straight in the bin and I probably missed some very good candidates but I wasn't prepared to waste time and money supplementing their education before I could let them loose on a customer.
Nothing I see online has convinced me that the situation is any better than it was then.
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>> Well, unless the emphasis on the three Rs has changed in the last 20 years
>> you are sadly mistaken Bromp.
Oh, I'd not dispute that emphasis on grammar was lost in the seventies though whether such detail mattered is a different question.
My point was that top grades didn't go to dumb kids with no knowledge of their subject whetther it was history or science.
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>> I take it they've looked into the rules about CES? I know the rules got
>> tightened up a couple of years ago. Quite a lot of pongos were taking the p.
>> I don't know their careers but I know we have to get it signed off
>> by the drafters that we are likely to move around a lot frequently. Cant say I
>> know many at all that got CES, I think two.
>>
Yes, since the changes in the forces forced by defence budget reductions, it has become much, much, more difficult to obtain the CEA (continuation of education allowance).
There are no guarantees either in continuity of postings, or availability of the allowance.
It may well be impossible, in which case the (currently) the underperforming local Comp beckons.
Luckily, I guess, my daughter is a primary teacher herself (not working in education now for reasons a lot of teachers will appreciate) so there will be parental pressure & help to perform!
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I went to private secondary school in Edinburgh in the 80s.
The main difference between that and my local state secondary was that good grades and further education were expected, rather than an exception. Behaviour in class was also good, and bullying was a fast-track to ejection, no matter how rich/powerful your old man thought he was.
Extra-curricular activities were also far more prevalent but I'm a lazy sod at heart so could do without them.
I think Thatcher's 'assisted places scheme' was a good idea that should still exist in some form: every pupil going to private school saves the State around 4 grand per year so some 'payback' seems fair.
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Nothing wrong with state education that selection and streaming wouldn't fix.
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>> Nothing wrong with state education that selection and streaming wouldn't fix.
>>
Can't have that ! We are all equal. We are all winners!
At junior school the teachers reported that my daughter was not " involved"enough in her classes. It turned out that she knew the answers but kept quiet to avoid aggro from the boys.
Both my children got very high marks and went to grammar schools where they both thrived and did well. Both schools expected all their pupils to do well with almost all going to Uni.
Being part of their development was enjoyable for all of us.
We put no pressure on them at any stage and NO promises re exam results.
We had no concerns re !!+ exams but did employ a good tutor to give them some practice and to boost their confidence even more. They enjoyed the sessions.
I believe that parents involvement really starts from the birth but many do not keep up the effort over the years. It does not need to be intensive but rather interesting / fun.
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>> I believe that parents involvement really starts from the birth but many do not keep up the effort over the years.
Yes hk. I owe a huge debt to my parents. For many years I was a bit of a trial to them. But they did me proud.
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>>It has been my great good fortune to go to eight schools of every conceivable type and social level.
About ten in my case - the fortunes of war, as I was booted about on evacuations and booted out by two sets of relatives and one school. These were about four state schools, three dame schools and three grammars. I left the first grammar at the urgent request of its headmaster. The second gave me my happiest two or three years, as a boarder (although weekly only) in a little country grammar, with mostly farm lads as companions. The last grammar was largely for the sons of local professional men, like me, but with a few nobs, including one Honourable. The place had aspirations to became a public school and did so when I was there.
I could not afford private education for my two children when the time arrived and wish it had been possible. The teachers are probably not superior overall but they are better resourced and get smaller classes. I found boarding beneficial but I doubt my daughter could have coped, although I think my son would have flourished.
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I was at one boarding school (a very good one) from 8 to 10 and another from 16-17. The first was a bit gruelling initially but I got used to it. The second was no problem.
Having a hard time at school is good for you if it doesn't break you (as it does some). You learn stoicism, a valuable quality in life.
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I went to a day public school, so caught the ethos but not the boarding.
I did notice at university how much more quickly those who had boarded learned the ropes and took to the experience. It took longer for me.
There were two main advantages. One was the effortless assumption that one's path in life was to succeed, almost invariably starting with university, preferably Oxbridge.
The other was the awareness that it was a privilege, which could be rescinded. Lying behind all discipline was the unstated threat that it was possible to be expelled for deviating too far.
It would have been hard to afford the same education for our children, but we went down the route of home-education. All three are adamant that they would not have preferred to go to school.
Interestingly, they all find the company of privately-educated friends more congenial than state schools. They say they are less immature, more tolerant and open-minded, and more ready to stand out from the crowd and be themselves.
That's the children speaking, not me. But I'm pleased to hear it.
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Interesting. I've never found congeniality or any other desirable characteristic to be a particular function of how an individual's educational experience was funded.
In any group or sub-section there is usually a mixture of pleasing people, those who muddle along in the middle and those who are best avoided.
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>> Interesting. I've never found congeniality or any other desirable characteristic to be a particular function
>> of how an individual's educational experience was funded.
>>
I just meant mutually congenial - the kind of people one gravitates towards. Possibly obnoxious to the rest of the world.
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>> Whats a dame school?
Remember term from my A level Economic/Social history but rather than rack my brains:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame_school
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Interesting that so many on here went to private schools. I think my parents would have liked me and my brother to go to grammar school but it was out of their price range.
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>> Whats a dame school?
>>
I did actually attend one for a few months when aged 6. My mother was in hospital and I was sent to live with my farming cousins in very rural Lincolnshire.
The tiny village school had one teacher, a nasty old crone whom I thought of as straight out of "The Water Babies" - a scary book I read when young.
We wrote on slates, sat on long benches, and began each day reciting the Lords Prayer and the Ten Commandments.
It was a freezing winter, and heating was minimal - a cast-iron Victorian stove that had to be raked out and lit each morning as a punishment.
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>> I did actually attend one for a few months when aged 6. My mother was
>> in hospital and I was sent to live with my farming cousins in very rural
>> Lincolnshire.
Unless you are very old indeed what you attended was not a 'Dame School' in the history of education sense. They were a feature of the education landscape pre 1870, usually run in the teacher's home.
OTOH small village primaries run by just one or two teachers were, and to some extent remain, a feature of rural life to this day.
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My first two schools were a young ladies' academy that took male infants, which I still think of as a Dame school, and a convent in Bath which still exists, where I was in a primary class. My third was a Methodist mission school in Trincomalee, just for a few weeks, then the Hill School in Nuwara Eliya, where I boarded along with everyone else (only 130 boys and girls altogether, all British or anyway 'white'). Strangely, it was a really excellent institution. Of course the empire still existed in those days.
The buildings still exist. It's a military base these days for the Sri Lankan army.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 4 Oct 14 at 18:44
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If you can afford the cost why not private education must be better or not?
It was wasted on me and my brother spend two years at a private school.I run away a few times got into lots of fights mind you 55 years ago.>:)
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A good pal of mine has two kids in private education. "Good" schools but not super-league. Both children are day pupils but even so he has to find £2000 a month in fees. £24,000 a year is a lot of taxed income to most people. It's killing him financially but he seems to think it's worth it. Maybe it is. I guess it depends on many factors. ( oh by the way, times the £24k by 13 years, then it gets really scary )...
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Strewth thats some wedge! Mind you must be on a bob or two to attempt even affording it.
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S'fairly simple. You need a good school. And there are good private schools and good state schools, although rather more of the former.
So, IMO, the decision entirely depends upon the schools within the relevant catchment area.
Surely it doesn't matter whether the school is private or state, provided the service provision is good and desired?
Near where we live when in England, that means Private until 14yrs, and then much more of a toss up after that.
Boarding school, on the other hand, is a different decision altogether. I am sure most children are capable of finding value and enjoyment in either day or boarding, provided they are of appropriate quality, but I didn't have children so that I could send them elsewhere for 8 months of the year.
I enjoy caring for my girls, and I enjoy them participating in my life. Daily.
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>> I enjoy caring for my girls, and I enjoy them participating in my life. Daily.
But the best part is getting rid of them after 23 years.
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Perhaps, we will see, but I doubt it.
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I have twin girls. They are in their last year of A Levels. At village junior school the excelled and were identified as 'gifted and talented'. They then moved to the local state school and both achieved A* in all subjects bar one which was a B. One of them being diagnosed with Crohns.
AS levels were good but they found them hard work. Likewise the final push to A levels.
A friends son is attending a fee paying private day school ( strangely enough the same as I did and wasted the opportunity) and has not achieved to quite the same level. So we are happy with state education and their willingness to study which is a major factor.
And yes next September am I am going to miss them hugely :(((
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>> And yes next September am I am going to miss them hugely :(((
You'll be surprised. Miss them? of course you will, BUT, in their absence life takes on a much more relaxed stance, and you become very much more free. And you get the added bonus of when they come back, for weekends, meals, with new boyfriends, girlfriends, its all very much a party atmosphere and you revel in how much they have grown and becoming independent - something you tend to miss when you see them every day.
Flying the nest is a pleasure all its own.
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>> when they come back, for weekends, meals, with new boyfriends, girlfriends,
You omitted dirty laundry ;>)
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>> >> when they come back, for weekends, meals, with new boyfriends, girlfriends,
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>> You omitted dirty laundry ;>)
You right - shed loads of it.
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.......and bank of mum and dad...for a few years. My eldest is 43 now and the little girl 35. The boy is 41. It was nice to get rid of them one by one gradually.......with occasional returns when partner fall-outs occurred.
But none of them wanted to go far and all are settled with kids of their own within 10 miles or so of us. SWM is called upon for some school collection and minding duties but she likes that. They all come round here regularly..the 4 boys like the model railway or play on the PC with it's big monitor...a change from these hand held thingies !
Wouldn't have it any other way !
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>> Flying the nest is a pleasure all its own.
>>
It's not losing a daughter, it's gaining a bathroom.
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If you decide there will be a boarding to comp move your daughter will need a lot of guidance.
One example of what can happen. - I was around 16 and attending Cambridgeshire College of Arts and Technology. We had a student join us who was waiting to go to Cambridge Uni to study maths and was filling in time with us. We thought his maths was brilliant, especially when he corrected the lecturers. He eventually went to Uni and failed his first year. We suspect that by being with us he thought he was brilliant and didn't put in the effort.
Best of luck. We wish her well.
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Horses for courses... I went to grammar school but not to university,likewise SWMBO.We both have had long and successful careers .
We sent helicopter jr to a private grammar school at age 10 and at considerable expense to us when it became obvious that he was not being stretched at the local state school .
I believe it was a good investment because he gained a place at Cambridge and is now has two Masters degrees and an exceedingly well paid job as a Chartered Accountant specialising in auditing with one of the big 4 companies.
His cousin went to a local state school and gained one O level in woodwork , went to an apprenticeship as a carpenter and now runs his own sucessful building company ... his main contracts are worth several hundred thousands of pounds refurbishing mainly private schools....
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Children get in contact with a better class of pupil in private education, socially and academically. Higher expectations by staff and parents tend to better outcomes in school and in later life. As well as a better education academically, the potential social and career enhancement of private education is significant. All generalities and highlighting social injustice I know, but that is the way it goes.
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>>>Children get in contact with a better class of pupil in private education, socially and academically. Higher expectations by staff and parents tend to better outcomes in school and in later life<<<
Whilst some of this may be true at some of the long established institutions, I am not sure that it applies to to those establishments further down the 'scale'. My personal experience of several institutions shows over representation of apparently ' sucessful parents' with a criminal background (or maybe involved in questionable activities), also true at school governor level. Maybe it is an attempt at social laundering of the children?
Socially, some of the underperformers (or are they just thick?) come out with a questionable attitude.
Academically the results maybe better for a group of pupils, (smaller class sizes, more disciplined learning), but good results do not improve on the IQ of the base material.
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>>but good results do not improve on the IQ of the base material.
No, but they tend to make the most of it in my experience, rather than the "lowest common denominator" approach of some state schools in my experience.
I always liked the statement the girls' headmaster addressed to new pupils and parents alike which, paraphrased, was....
"We want you to try hard, and we like you much more when you try hard, you're a better citizen in this school when you try hard, but we give medals and certificates for achievement.
You are capable of successfully representing this school at something, and before you leave here we will find out what it is"
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>> My
>> personal experience of several institutions shows over representation of apparently ' sucessful parents' with a
>> criminal background (or maybe involved in questionable activities), also true at school governor level.
Gosh, what an enviably exiting education you seem to have had.
The mind boggles at the idea of the head master on Founders Day introducing Mr Kray, the new chairman of the governors, or Col Mike Hoare conducting the CCF general inspection rather than the usual Old Boy Rear-admiral.
I do remember one friend who sold things like pliars and wire-strippers purloined from his father's company - does that count?
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Private education - yes or no? - Zero
