| Non-motoring > Abu Qatada cleared. | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Old Navy | Replies: 55 |
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New Wed 24 Sep 14 09:03
Abu Qatada cleared. - Old Navy
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And soon to be released in Jordan. It is speculated that he may be useful in the fight against IS. I assume that his outfit don't like the competition. Our government say that he will not be back here, they must be searching every vehicle crossing the channel.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 24 Sep 14 at 09:04
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New Wed 24 Sep 14 11:52
Abu Qatada cleared. - Bromptonaut
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Not directly related to AQ but another bit of brilliant satire from 'First Dog on the Moon' www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/sep/24/first-dog-terrorism |
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New Wed 24 Sep 14 14:46
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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Is he the smiling one with the beard and the twinkle in his eye, who I once proposed as Metropolitan Police and Crime Commissionner, or the grim bearded one we were well rid of? I think they are both Abus. We British have two entangled attitudes to Islam and the Muslims who live here. One derives from daily experience and social contact with long-standing or recently arrived Muslim communities, and reflects the tolerant melting-pot aspect of this country. The other is the yobbish, bawling view generally projected by the media and aided by malevolent mischief-makers on all sides, not least among the Muslims themselves. This may seem 'natural' but it's humiliating and shaming. We may not be worse than other western countries in this respect but we ought to be better. |
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New Wed 24 Sep 14 23:40
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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>> the smiling one with the beard and the twinkle in his eye, who I once proposed as Metropolitan Police and Crime Commissionner Yes, it is he. Not enough evidence to convict him on those plotting charges, so he's free. It's said a text of his was found in the room of one of the 7/7 bombers. So he's an Islamist ideologue on some level, although there's no reason to suppose the text inspired the atrocities. . But I'm glad he hasn't been jailed in Jordan, and I bet he is too. Can't help having a soft spot for him among all those scowling beardies. I was amazed to see on the box that he has a living father, who doesn't look much older than he does. No doubt he is now going to be a big asset to, cough, the information services. Looks willing enough. |
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New Wed 24 Sep 14 23:46
Abu Qatada cleared. - Dutchie
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I never thought he was a plotter just a big mouth and the press vilified him. If he is allowed to come back he be living in a mansion with his wives and kids.I doubt it but he had a good live her or not? >:) |
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New Wed 24 Sep 14 23:48
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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| Travel ban, no passport, deported from here in the first place, won't be coming back. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 08:19
Abu Qatada cleared. - Cliff Pope
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>> >> We British have two entangled attitudes to Islam and the Muslims who live here. It's interesting to look back at the days when Arabs were regarded romantically as simple hardy souls living in the timeless rolling sands of Arabia, and restless English men and women went out to try to emulate their lives. Or else Muslims were jolly chaps in the Indian army, fearless fighters. But that was then, and there, not over here. Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Thu 25 Sep 14 at 08:19
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 09:18
Abu Qatada cleared. - Bromptonaut
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>> Or else Muslims were jolly chaps in the Indian army, fearless fighters. That sentence caused me to raise my eyebrows; India surely mostly Hindu? But then I thought Raj, divide/rule etc and did a bit of Googling which turned up this article: www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/local-blogs/dark-matter/9985718/Why-Indians-need-their-Anzac-moment Indian colonial army 80% Muslim. I suspect Sikhs played a big part too. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 25 Sep 14 at 09:18
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 09:47
Abu Qatada cleared. - Cliff Pope
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>> >> Indian colonial army 80% Muslim. I suspect Sikhs played a big part too. >> Exactly "India" meant the whole sub-continent before 1947. ( including of course Ceylon, and I think Burma before a possibly earlier date). As it did to Ghandi, who tried hard to resist partition? |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 09:55
Abu Qatada cleared. - Crankcase
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Which leads to the fun and games that was the Indian Mutiny; some instructive lessons in that debacle not only about how not to treat others' religious beliefs, but also about how not to treat a workforce (or Army in this case). I wonder if we really still have to "learn the lessons" in some areas, 150 odd years on. One of the many sparks was the passing of the general service Act, which basically abolished pensions for new recruits...that went down well. Along, of course, with the well known "forcing Muslims to eat pork lard on their cartridges" bit. Wikipedia has quite a nice little summary. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857 |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 10:22
Abu Qatada cleared. - madf
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My father was adjutant of a Sikh regiment in WW2 in Burma.. ( and Palestine, Iraq etc). He never talked about it- had grenade scars and could not lift an arm. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 10:45
Abu Qatada cleared. - Bromptonaut
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Another cartoonist's take on Islamic v Western cultural norms: thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2008/12/1.png |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 10:51
Abu Qatada cleared. - Roger.
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Interestingly, by and large, Sikhs and Hindus seem to live in this country pretty unobtrusively, prospering quietly. Are the Muslim Pakistanis only separated by religion, or is there an ethnic dimension? |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 11:20
Abu Qatada cleared. - DP
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I agree with Dutchie. I thought the press coverage this bloke got was completely disproportionate to any threat he represented. Or any interest for that matter. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 14:47
Abu Qatada cleared. - Zero
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>> I agree with Dutchie. I thought the press coverage this bloke got was completely disproportionate >> to any threat he represented. Or any interest for that matter. The only threat he posed was to UK PLCs bank balance. He was over here, being feted by his acolytes, multiple wives and kids being fed watered and homed (very well as it happens) by the state. No wonder he didn't want to go back to Jordan. I'd have played the "my safety would be compromised" card as well. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 15:00
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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>> The only threat he posed was to UK PLCs bank balance. At least he can tell the difference between a large indebted country and a seedy bankrupt commercial firm. It's not unreasonable to suspect that some of the 'acolytes' might pose a physical threat sooner or later. The genial demeanour must have made the Islamist crap more palatable and convincing to idle mischievous young monkeys. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 11:32
Abu Qatada cleared. - Bromptonaut
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>> Interestingly, by and large, Sikhs and Hindus seem to live in this country pretty unobtrusively, >> prospering quietly. >> Are the Muslim Pakistanis only separated by religion, or is there an ethnic dimension? The vast majority of Muslims in this country, of whatever origin live unobtrusively. A few egregious individuals or groups of individuals get involved in crime. Because it feeds the appetites of people like you the media enthusiastically report every detail of such crimes, adding their own pejorative gloss. There may be an ethnic dimension in that the perps of those crimes (I take it your focus is on grooming) all tend to come from isolated rural and 'backward' areas of Pakistan. Those areas, possibly due to isolation by their neighbours, are inward looking. That culture has remianed in their communities in the UK. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 25 Sep 14 at 11:33
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 11:44
Abu Qatada cleared. - Cliff Pope
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>> >> >> There may be an ethnic dimension There's a visible ethnic diversity in Pakistan, I think. There is definitely a variation in skin colour, and it's easy to imagine that the paler skinned inhabitants tend to form the higher echelons. Is that a fair obsevation? I have simlarly read that Brazil, for example, has no colour prejudice - it's just that shades of colour tend to mirror economic and social class, so any problem gets subsumed in a wider question of class and wealth. Enoch Powell once said that there would be fewer race problems in Britain if we truely were a melting pot. That may actually be slowly coming about. I read somewhere recently that "mixed race" is actually the biggest racial minority, and that "creoleism" rather than multi-culturalism is the future. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 12:50
Abu Qatada cleared. - Boxsterboy
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| I'm pleased he was cleared. It gives the conspiracy theorists less ammunition. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 15:59
Abu Qatada cleared. - Westpig
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>> The vast majority of Muslims in this country, of whatever origin live unobtrusively. Correct >> >> A few egregious individuals or groups of individuals get involved in crime. Because it feeds >> the appetites of people like you the media enthusiastically report every detail of such crimes, >> adding their own pejorative gloss. You cannot keep blaming the media. There has to be some substance to the report, even if tabloids do spin and embellish things. If there is a noticeable minority within a religion, race, cultural group or whatever that is up to no good.. it should be openly discussed by us all.. not hidden away with the pretence that it doesn't exist. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 17:01
Abu Qatada cleared. - Bromptonaut
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>> You cannot keep blaming the media. There has to be some substance to the report, >> even if tabloids do spin and embellish things. >> >> If there is a noticeable minority within a religion, race, cultural group or whatever that >> is up to no good.. it should be openly discussed by us all.. not hidden >> away with the pretence that it doesn't exist. I'm not suggesting anything be hidden away. The terms of debate though should be based on fact and not dictated by the agenda of the Mail etc. And the focus should be on the behaviour and not the group. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 17:30
Abu Qatada cleared. - Westpig
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>> I'm not suggesting anything be hidden away. The terms of debate though should be based >> on fact and not dictated by the agenda of the Mail etc. I don't like the Mail (and others), because they rabble rouse and are economical with the truth at times.. however they do also have an important role to play i.e. keeping us all informed ..and that includes covering the areas that the politically correct in life would rather they didn't.. and I can confirm I'm glad they do, albeit I would prefer more integrity in their system. However faced with a choice of limited integrity or not reporting at all, I'll go for limited integrity, because at least the issue is aired. >> And the focus >> should be on the behaviour and not the group. The focus should be on the behaviour and the group if they are both relevant. I'd have no problem with a mention that most of the other members of the group do not participate in the activity ..however, most intelligent people can work that one out anyway and those that don't probably never will. I see no reason to exclude mention of the group. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 17:36
Abu Qatada cleared. - Zero
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>> >> I'm not suggesting anything be hidden away. The terms of debate though should be >> based >> >> on fact and not dictated by the agenda of the Mail etc. >> >> I don't like the Mail (and others), because they rabble rouse and are economical with >> the truth at times.. however they do also have an important role to play i.e. >> keeping us all informed .. They only keep us informed about, and in a manner that suits and inflames their existing readership profile. Their readership profile is aged, white, middle class, life long tory party voters who hate anything foreign, (especially the EU), and anyone who does not fit into their demographic. Last edited by: Zero on Thu 25 Sep 14 at 17:37
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 17:46
Abu Qatada cleared. - Bromptonaut
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>> I see no reason to exclude mention of the group. Neither do I. It's the unremitting focus on ethnicity/religion that does the damage. Not only does it give a distorted view of society but, more worryingly, it helps feed a mindset where it Islam is constantly demonised and thus contributes to isolation and radicalisation of youth. You may not agree with Afua Hirsh's piece but it might provoke some thoughts as to how it seems from the other side: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/19/british-muslims-driven-to-extremism-alienated-at-home |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 19:54
Abu Qatada cleared. - Westpig
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>> You may not agree with Afua Hirsh's piece but it might provoke some thoughts as >> to how it seems from the other side: >> >> www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/19/british-muslims-driven-to-extremism-alienated-at-home >> I don't see it the same way. This country is generally easy going and has or does welcome all. Yes there are some diehards who see life through a warped mindset and will try to put all our ills as being the fault of 'foreigners', but in reality they are very much in the minority.... ...as are the people who cause problems at the other end of the spectrum e.g. Muslim extremists. The majority of people are the reasonable in the middle. However, as to dealing with a white supremacist or a Muslim extremist.. the sitting down with a cup of tea and trying to understand them, doesn't fit with me. If you feel alienated, make more effort to integrate. If you feel alienated, maybe it's because a huge chunk of the rest of the population doesn't agree with you. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 13:27
Abu Qatada cleared. - Haywain
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| So, the cartoonist's message is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 13:38
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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>> cartoonist's take on Islamic v Western cultural norms: Jokes are often about simple inversions. I have a good cartoon in mind: a Muslim bloke passing a group of bikini-clad beach babes, leering upwards at the thought bubble above his head, containing the same babes wearing head-to-toe chadors. My youngest daughter is a bit of a cartoonist and I offered it to her free. But she won't even try to do it, ostensibly because it's politically incorrect. I think though it's because she doesn't know how to draw a stereotypical Muslim leering upwards. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 13:54
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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No direct connection probably, but the 19-year-old from Brighton who went to Syria as a jihadi, joined Al-Nusra and got himself killed in a US missile strike demands attention, if only because the comments of his (35-year-old!) mother were so dignified and apposite. Her English wasn't all that good, but she said she knew that the people who had 'brainwashed' her son into going off and doing that sort of thing, which she thought 'unnecessary', would face the justice of Allah on the day of judgement. No doubt they will, but it would be good if they faced some ordinary human justice first. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 13:56
Abu Qatada cleared. - Old Navy
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thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2008/12/1.png Some years ago I was holidaying in Egypt. While in Luxor viewing assorted piles of dusty rocks one young female member of our group decided to dress almost identically to the bikini clad girl in the cartoon. She obviously had no concept or respect for the culture we were in and seemed somewhat surprised when the word rapidly spread and the local males appeared from all directions to view and escort our group. It was amusing to see many eyes peering round statues, pillars, etc. Our guide for that week, a big pitch black Nubian, watched her like a hawk, I suspect more for her safety than any other reason as he had full access to the pool, bar, and sunbathing areas of the Nile cruise boat we were based on. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 15:52
Abu Qatada cleared. - Westpig
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>> Another cartoonist's take on Islamic v Western cultural norms: >> >> thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2008/12/1.png >> At least the Western one has a choice...can can be educated, have a job, drive a car, go out on her own without a chaperone, etc. I look down my nose at those in our society who seem to have no boundaries.. but at least they are free to make what I think are the mistakes in their lives. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 20:48
Abu Qatada cleared. - Bromptonaut
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>> At least the Western one has a choice...can can be educated, have a job, drive >> a car, go out on her own without a chaperone, etc. >> In all probability the lady in the chador can do those things too. Saudi Arabia is pretty extreme, London is not, neither ae pleny of Islamic states. Furthermore, there are those in the west, you included based on your previous posts, who would deny the Muslim lady the dress SHE has chosen because of YOUR view of why she makes that choice. >> I look down my nose at those in our society who seem to have no >> boundaries.. but at least they are free to make what I think are the mistakes >> in their lives. See above. |
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New Thu 25 Sep 14 21:30
Abu Qatada cleared. - Old Navy
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I have seen many young ladies in Dubai dressed completely in black with just an eye slit over their jeans and expensive trainers. I am sure the black tent comes off as soon as they get home.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 25 Sep 14 at 21:32
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New Fri 26 Sep 14 08:10
Abu Qatada cleared. - Westpig
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>> In all probability the lady in the chador can do those things too. So not a definite then. Saudi Arabia >> is pretty extreme, London is not, neither ae pleny of Islamic states. No, but there's still plenty of men willing to suppress their womenfolk...sharia law for a divorce anyone? Tad one sided don't you think? >> Furthermore, there are those in the west, you included based on your previous posts, who >> would deny the Muslim lady the dress SHE has chosen because of YOUR view of >> why she makes that choice. What makes you so firmly think that all the women in a Muslim society choose to wear a sheet over themselves? Do you not think 100's of years of social conditioning and immense peer pressure from the men has played its part? Let's face it, women are second class citizens in that culture ..and I for one think that is wrong. |
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New Fri 26 Sep 14 10:23
Abu Qatada cleared. - Bromptonaut
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>> No, but there's still plenty of men willing to suppress their womenfolk...sharia law for a >> divorce anyone? Tad one sided don't you think? I agree that Sharia divorce is one sided. It is not however the simple process of repeating formulaic words three time that UK legend has it. There is variation between Sunni and Shia and within both sects. In general however there has to be a waiting time of a month between each pronunciation of Talaq. During the intervals between the first/second and second/third instances both sides will be assisted by family and others to achieve a reconciliation. A woman seeking divorce must petition a 'Sharia Court'. This is undoubtedly difficult where the man will not consent but not as far from the UK court process (where consent is withheld) as mythology would have you believe. >> What makes you so firmly think that all the women in a Muslim society choose >> to wear a sheet over themselves? Do you not think 100's of years of social >> conditioning and immense peer pressure from the men has played its part? Your dismissive reference to 'a sheet' says a lot to me. Of course peer pressure plays part, just as pressure from the parson and society did for social conventions in parts of the UK until very recently indeed. Read Alison Johnson's 'A House by the Shore' for an account of the Free Church's pressures in 1970/80s western Scotland. There are plenty of accounts out there from women who've chosen the burkha (or the headscarf - to which exactly same social pressures can be said to apply) for themselves. >> Let's face it, women are second class citizens in that culture ..and I for one >> think that is wrong. Of course it's wrong in a black/white sense but in reality the facts are more nuanced. >> |
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New Fri 26 Sep 14 15:02
Abu Qatada cleared. - Westpig
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>> Your dismissive reference to 'a sheet' says a lot to me. If my message 'says' that I find the whole thing repugnant, designed to suppress women, then I have achieved my aim. It is a piece of cloth as is a sheet and as are your trousers. Of course peer pressure >> plays part, just as pressure from the parson and society did for social conventions in >> parts of the UK until very recently indeed. Yes..and we have evolved thankfully and moved on...some in the world have not. There are >> plenty of accounts out there from women who've chosen the burkha (or the headscarf - >> to which exactly same social pressures can be said to apply) for themselves. Yes... because they are from that 'culture'. The same principle as children loving their abuser parents. >> >> Let's face it, women are second class citizens in that culture ..and I for >> one >> >> think that is wrong. >> >> Of course it's wrong in a black/white sense but in reality the facts are more >> nuanced. I am convinced you cannot see the wood from the trees. Last edited by: Westpig on Fri 26 Sep 14 at 15:03
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New Fri 26 Sep 14 15:10
Abu Qatada cleared. - Mapmaker
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If these women were white Christians, Brompton would be screaming about female persecution. As their skin isn't white and they're not Christian, he thinks it's fine. What do I know about these things, but it seems quite a racist point of view to me. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not accusing you of being racist. I'm just expressing my bemusement. I lead a very sheltered life, and Brompton is the only Guardianista whom I 'know'. I really didn't think that people like that existed outside a Radio 4 comedy. Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 26 Sep 14 at 15:12
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New Fri 26 Sep 14 17:46
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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>> I lead a very sheltered life, and Brompton is the only Guardianista whom I 'know'. Quite a few closet or part-time Guardianistas here, although one or two left a while back. I myself have a lefty hat that I sometimes put on. Bromptonaut's a serious cat, doesn't go in for frivolity or risk saying anything sexist or fascizing. Respect. |
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New Fri 26 Sep 14 20:46
Abu Qatada cleared. - Westpig
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>> Quite a few closet or part-time Guardianistas here, although one or two left a while >> back. I myself have a lefty hat that I sometimes put on. >> >> Bromptonaut's a serious cat, doesn't go in for frivolity or risk saying anything sexist or >> fascizing. Respect. >> AC, Can you answer something for me, please? I'm being genuine here and not trying to point score or whatever. You've flirted with the Left and have seen a bit of life etc. Why do so many people of the Left persuasion have such high morals and attitudes (mostly genuine and 'good' in my book) with regards other people's rights and cultures ..yet seemingly put their collective heads in the sand and utterly ignore some glaringly obvious infringements of laws or social responsibility, etc (some quite serious) committed by those people of other cultures ..to the point of my often bafflement. E.g. Life in a Muslim state isn't always so rosy for a gay person. How can one be so active in respecting other people's rights in some respects, yet totally ignore others? |
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New Fri 26 Sep 14 23:25
Abu Qatada cleared. - smokie
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Doesn't that depend on what your view of one's rights are? Or your society's view, or your religion, or culture or whatever? There's quite a few Muslims where I work and a month or so back mostly all stopped eating, drinking and smoking in daylight as it was Ramadan. These are not weird extremists, they are people with well paid jobs in the City. I admire their strength of character and commitment to their religion rather than knock them for not agreeing with whatever I think. Just because we think our way is right, and that the ways of others may seem wrong to us, doesn't mean that they ARE wrong, any more than we are, or that they should adjust their ways to fit our way of thinking. After all, not so long ago women were second class citizens here too - many would say they still are. |
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New Sat 27 Sep 14 22:04
Abu Qatada cleared. - Dutchie
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There is no right or wrong way it all depends where you start from. You could say the same thing about Cameron speech about fighting evil (Muslims) It is evil when you cut somebody's head off which of course is terrible.When you drop a bomb on people and women and children are torn to pieces that is not evil. We live in a crazy world where some have far to much and others have nothing. |
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New Sat 27 Sep 14 00:17
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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>> How can one be so active in respecting other people's rights in some respects, yet totally ignore others? It's a long time since I saw myself as a lefty Wp. Even when I did, I could understand that it wasn't my business to correct other people's cultures when they seemed happy with them, or as happy as anyone is. However ghastly one may think aspects of other cultures are - and I've certainly come across a few ghastly aspects in other cultures - one doesn't have the right or duty to set people straight. You can say what you think, tactfully, but you can't press or argue without being rude and risking trouble. It's easier to defend an oppressed people than an oppressed class, and easier to defend an oppressed class than an oppressed gender. People think that's private and none of your business. |
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New Sat 27 Sep 14 09:08
Abu Qatada cleared. - Westpig
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>> It's a long time since I saw myself as a lefty Wp. Even when I >> did, I could understand that it wasn't my business to correct other people's cultures when >> they seemed happy with them, or as happy as anyone is. However ghastly one may >> think aspects of other cultures are - and I've certainly come across a few ghastly >> aspects in other cultures - one doesn't have the right or duty to set people >> straight. You can say what you think, tactfully, but you can't press or argue without >> being rude and risking trouble. I suppose what I'm saying is, someone like me could be pulled up for saying the wrong word on some occasions or laughing at a politically incorrect joke, etc...and it is frowned upon by some as being 'ist' or I am deemed unaware of what is 'right and 'wrong''.... ...yet, in the big scheme of things, I am appalled at the suffering some people endure, their lives are true misery and they are well and truly sat on, being less than 2nd class citizens...yet that sort of thing is accepted with a shrug by the same people who would pull me up for a word, because it's 'culture' we are talking about and no one should interfere with that... ...furthermore, this country has evolved into a sort of nice place and there's laws to prevent the 2nd class citizen, yet at times they are utterly ignored if someone's culture is deemed more important? ...I just don't understand it. |
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New Sat 27 Sep 14 15:35
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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>> someone like me could be pulled up for saying the wrong word on some occasions or laughing at a politically incorrect joke, etc...and it is frowned upon by some as being 'ist' or I am deemed unaware of what is 'right and 'wrong''.... I assure you Wp that someone like me gets frequent scoldings for the same offences. The women know perfectly well that I know the difference between right and wrong, and they disapprove of that sort of edgy humour because of its ambiguity. The best analogy is with workplace racism: 'just having a laugh mate', but some will be offended and it isn't unknown for offence to be actually intended. Same thing with sexism. |
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New Sat 27 Sep 14 18:01
Abu Qatada cleared. - Westpig
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>> I assure you Wp that someone like me gets frequent scoldings for the same offences. >> The women know perfectly well that I know the difference between right and wrong, and >> they disapprove of that sort of edgy humour because of its ambiguity. The best analogy >> is with workplace racism: 'just having a laugh mate', but some will be offended and >> it isn't unknown for offence to be actually intended. Same thing with sexism. >> Yeah, fair enough.... there's a fine line between honest, genuine humour and unpleasant, underhand unnecessariness. |
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New Sat 27 Sep 14 07:17
Abu Qatada cleared. - Skip
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>> Quite a few closet or part-time Guardianistas here, although one or two left a while >> back. I myself have a lefty hat that I sometimes put on. Really ? |
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New Sun 28 Sep 14 00:07
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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| Some posts including one of mine seem to have vanished from this thread. Or is it just an access of late-night incompetence and paranoia on my part? I may never know. |
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New Sun 28 Sep 14 00:16
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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AQ's conviction in Jordan couldn't stand because some of the evidence against him had been obtained under torture. Jolly good, one tended to think, get the information from bad guys trying to hide it. But you can't rely on torture evidence because once you've had your trousers pulled down and seen the tongs you'll tell them whatever they want to hear, implicate others, anything to avoid the pincers. Seems to me. Unreliable by definition. |
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New Thu 2 Oct 14 18:27
Abu Qatada cleared. - Cliff Pope
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>> Seems to me. Unreliable by definition. >> Indeed. But isn't it odd that torturers down the ages have never seemed to care about the accuracy of the evidence obtained? It rather suggests that there is usually another motive for the use of torture - inspiring terror and discouraging the others perhaps? |
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New Thu 2 Oct 14 20:12
Abu Qatada cleared. - Armel Coussine
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>> another motive for the use of torture - inspiring terror and discouraging the others perhaps? That too perhaps. But the main objective must often be to get the victim to provide verbal 'evidence' against others wanted by the torturer's bosses - usually a government - for other reasons. A tortured person will say anything to make it stop, nearly always. Saints and martyrs are very rare in real life. A low-key British variant might be a copper getting some toerag bang to rights on a charge carrying a custodial sentence and offering to let them walk provided they dump their more serious fellow toerags in the poo. It is after all an obvious thing to do. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 2 Oct 14 at 20:16
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New Wed 1 Oct 14 22:44
Moazzam Begg Too - Bromptonaut
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So after 7 months in custody all charges against former Gitmo inmate Moazzam Begg are dropped. www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/01/moazzam-begg-freed-case-collapses And we wonder why the more gullible (or even the serious) might conclude there was a conspiracy of demonisation against Muslims. |
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New Thu 2 Oct 14 16:43
Moazzam Begg Too - Westpig
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>> And we wonder why the more gullible (or even the serious) might conclude there was >> a conspiracy of demonisation against Muslims. >> Dear oh dear. The average Muslim in this country doesn't spend time in custody in Guantanamo Bay or 7 months in Belmarsh, do they? ...and I would think the average person would think that this man sails very close to the wind or is exceptionally naive... and it wouldn't matter what religion the person was, to think it. Then there's the fact we don't necessarily know the real reason for the case being dropped, there could be information that would be detrimental to a bigger cause that means this case needs to fail. |
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New Thu 2 Oct 14 16:53
Moazzam Begg Too - Armel Coussine
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Westpig's right you know Bromptonaut. Personally I am pleased that Teresa May has decided to shut the detestable London smart-aleck Anjem Choudary up. What a poisonous man, what a damn disgrace to Islam. Tchah! |
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New Thu 2 Oct 14 17:03
Moazzam Begg Too - Zero
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>> Then there's the fact we don't necessarily know the real reason for the case being >> dropped, there could be information that would be detrimental to a bigger cause that means >> this case needs to fail. Likely to mean that GCHQ and the NSA do not want to reveal the extent of their interceptions, or possibly illegally obtained and inadmissible. |
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New Thu 2 Oct 14 18:05
Moazzam Begg Too - Old Navy
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| It would not surprise me if GCHQ and some "black" budgets are subsidised by the NSA to ensure their access to some of the info. |
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New Thu 2 Oct 14 18:10
Moazzam Begg Too - Zero
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>> It would not surprise me if GCHQ and some "black" budgets are subsidised by the >> NSA to ensure their access to some of the info. Its no surprise, its documented. The NSA pay a large chunks to update, expand, and maintain GCHQs resources, and for this they get raw access. |
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New Fri 3 Oct 14 17:21
Moazzam Begg Too - Bromptonaut
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>> The average Muslim in this country doesn't spend time in custody in Guantanamo Bay or >> 7 months in Belmarsh, do they? >> >> ...and I would think the average person would think that this man sails very close >> to the wind or is exceptionally naive He may have sailed near wind and may have kept some dodgy company in the past. In spite of that neither the US nor UK semm able to make even a simple criminal charge stick to him. On the other hand he's heavily involved with campaigning fro rights of others imprisoned and or rendered on dodgy grounds, not just into custody of US but to Ghadaffi's Libya and to the Assad regime in Syria. Those people are likely to be Muslims and somebody campaigning on their behalf will have support in the wider Muslim community just as those who campaigned for wrongly convicted Irish prisoners did in the ex pat Irish community. Furthermore, he went to Syria at a time when those opposed to Assad were portrayed in the west as freedom fighters. Only later did it emerge that some of them were actually just as nasty dictators as Bashir and his mates. The Syrian civil war wasn't the 0 v 1 digital good v evil battle portrayed here in its early stages but a complex ethno religious conflict where, loke Saddam Hussein, the Assad regime at least kept the lid on it. There's some suggestion that Begg may have been feeding info back to UK Intel services. Against that background imprisoning him (again!) on charges that don't stick (again!) is doing crap all for community relations and will help turn some of those wavering on the edge of being radicalised. |
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