Tonight on TV, there was an appeal, typical scenes - injured kids, no water, no shelter, homelessness, destruction, desolation.
Where? Gaza.
I find it obscene that a modern democracy backed by our government, can create such destruction and then we are expected to put our hands in our pockets for the victims. The state of Israel can lay it hands on numerous sources of western finance and we are expected to pay for the results of their actions
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Fair point.
Israel's action was entirely predictable by Hamas. So Hamas must have wished for the results. The innocents are at least as much victims of Hamas as of Israel, whose stance never changes - it will brook no attack without defending its citizens to the hilt, even to the point of getting its retaliation in first.
Nevertheless, it would put Israel in a better light if it was at least prepared to try and render some aid to the collaterally damaged.
It doesn't do to take sides in these things. They are never simple, and usually both protagonists have some sort of right on their side, even if their actions subsequently make matters worse.
I know I am very naive in these matters, despite having read a fair amount of the history.
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>> Fair point.
>>
>> Israel's action was entirely predictable by Hamas. So Hamas must have wished for the results.
Yup, and the Israeli Gov via the IDF played right into their hands, becoming the bad boys and loosing good will.
Hamas 1 IDF 0
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>> I know I am very naive in these matters, despite having read a fair amount
>> of the history.
>>
I hardly call your response naive. It seems very measured and quite correct.
We are facing very troubled times I feel and I have very strong views regarding just what is required to perhaps make a correction. My views cannot be aired here.
Regards to you all...
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Didn't you expect it Z?
It's headline news that the usual "charities" find irresistible.
Which organisation was asking for money?
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Disasters Emergency Committee
this is the add they aired
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kf4XMcZ5Pg
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Astonishing that the majority of the British public still don't know who is occupying who.
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I think Israel's response is over the top, but then again who in their right mind would attack a neighbour with such military might (and a nuclear capability - allegedly).
Comments I've heard recently include:
They voted for Hamas, what did they expect?
Why the fuss, look at how many Muslims are being killed by Muslims in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq?
From within Gaza:
It's a totally unfair response to us throwing a few piddling rockets a t them.
We've no medical facilities said the woman who had twins by IVF.
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You can't blame Israel for wanting to defend themselves against scores of rocket attacks. Hamas knew Israel had a far superior army and they knew it would be used, hence their guerrilla tactics (hiding with civilians, in schools, etc.). If we are being asked to give money to those suffering in Gaza, then why aren't we being asked to give money to those suffering in Israel (admittedly fewer).
I have come across a number of Arabs and Israelis in business, and I have to say that I the ones I have met have tended to be slightly less trust-worthy than other races/nationalities I have met. I fear there will never be peace in the region for this very reason.
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One wonders whether Hamas, originally Israel's creation, has moved on at all from being that. After all the unguided, virtually harmless Scud-type rockets being fired at Israel are paid for and launched by someone. And they are used of course as an excuse for mass murder and continuing expansion by the state of Israel. Israel in effect is the sole gainer from this alleged war. Distinctly fishy I'd say.
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I can understand your outrage at the death and destruction in Gaza but I am not quite clear why you are seemingly annoyed by a charity appeal to help alleviate the suffering of people caught up in this conflict.
These people need immediate help and assistance now and it is a humanitarian appeal. You are not "expected to put your hands in your pockets", you can donate if you wish or not as the case may be.
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As for the Appeal though, that is by a coalition of the usual suspects, harmless enough surely? Governments including ours may have winked at the thuggish behaviour of the (far from modern or democratic) Israeli state, but these do-gooding outfits aren't governmental. Indeed I was tempted to text the appeal a fiver, but haven't got round to it. Perhaps herself will. She's a sucker for this stuff.
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There are so many appeals as soon the Television is on please can you help.
We used to support a young girl in Albanie.We used to write and send stuff.She is married and lives in Italie.Diana sends money to Ethiopia has done for years.Dove house for me.
We are lucky that we are living here in a civilised country with all its problems.Very lucky.
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"They call us now.
Before they drop the bombs.
The phone rings
and someone who knows my first name
calls and says in perfect Arabic
“This is David.â€
And in my stupor of sonic booms and glass shattering symphonies
still smashing around in my head
I think "Do I know any Davids in Gaza?"
They call us now to say
Run.
You have 58 seconds from the end of this message.
Your house is next.
They think of it as some kind of
war time courtesy.
It doesn’t matter that
there is nowhere to run to.
It means nothing that the borders are closed
and your papers are worthless
and mark you only for a life sentence
in this prison by the sea
and the alleyways are narrow
and there are more human lives
packed one against the other
more than any other place on earth
Just run.
We aren’t trying to kill you.
It doesn’t matter that
you can’t call us back to tell us
the people we claim to want aren’t in your house
that there’s no one here
except you and your children
who were cheering for Argentina
sharing the last loaf of bread for this week
counting candles left in case the power goes out.
It doesn’t matter that you have children.
You live in the wrong place
and now is your chance to run
to nowhere.
It doesn’t matter
that 58 seconds isn’t long enough
to find your wedding album
or your son’s favorite blanket
or your daughter’s almost completed college application
or your shoes
or to gather everyone in the house.
It doesn’t matter what you had planned.
It doesn’t matter who you are
Prove you’re human.
Prove you stand on two legs.
Run."
- Running Orders, by Lena Khalaf Tuffaha
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Very well done Ted.
'We warn them,' said the detestable Netanyahu. This text shows what those 'warnings' really mean.
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>> "They call us now.
>> Before they drop the bombs.
>> The phone rings
>> and someone who knows my first name
>> calls and says in perfect Arabic
>> “This is David.â€
>>
Hello Ted, nice to hear from you again.
However. I despair of the methods used by both sides. If it wasn't so serious you would say that it was like schoolchildren in a playground.
Why do Hamas keep sending the rockets into Israel? Why?
It all seems to come back to the last century and white men were drawing lines on maps of the world.
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>> Why do Hamas keep sending the rockets into Israel? Why?
"Hamas" does not really have any control. Although there is a "Hamas" in power, its just a figure head, whereas on the ground its really a collection of individual little terror groups all prone to doing their own thing. The leadership can't criticise them or censure them because the whole shebang would fracture into chaos, and equally they can't control them.
Funnily, if the State of Israel was to ease up on the people of Gaza and their brethren in occupied territories and make their lives better they would naturally reject and drive out the terror groups, but the hard line attitude actually breeds and feeds them. Israel is in effect laying the seeds of instability and terror for years to come.
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>> I can understand your outrage at the death and destruction in Gaza but I am
>> not quite clear why you are seemingly annoyed by a charity appeal to help alleviate
>> the suffering of people caught up in this conflict.
I am outraged because directly or indirectly I am paying to enable this outrage, and now someone else is trying to prick my conscious to pay for alleviating it.
>> These people need immediate help and assistance now and it is a humanitarian appeal. You
>> are not "expected to put your hands in your pockets"
No the jewish lobby can pay for it. You can't play the "anti semitism" card when you are sinned against AND when you are the sinner.
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Serious question, what do you think the Israelis should do when rockets are fired at them?
Or is it more a case of what they might have done/omitted to do previously?
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>> Serious question, what do you think the Israelis should do when rockets are fired at
>> them?
>>
>> Or is it more a case of what they might have done/omitted to do previously?
It's what they've done/omitted and continue to do/omit in relation to settlement of the Palestinian issue in Gaza and the West Bank.
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>> Serious question, what do you think the Israelis should do when rockets are fired at
>> them?
Firstly, the rockets are more of a nuisance value, very few people have been killed by them, probably less than those killed by the IRA
Didn't see us rolling through the streets if Derry with Centurion Tanks and air strikes, and there in a nut shell is the vivid example of the over reaction.
>> Or is it more a case of what they might have done/omitted to do previously?
Not evicting palestinians from occupied land and force building new settlements might be a start, Pulling out of Jerusalem, which is supposed to be an open city might be another. Might also take the heat off if they didn't maintain Gazza in a state of siege. All they do is fuel and feed Hamas.
We didn't defeat the IRA militarily, and Ill bet you more than a few zillion quid it won't work with Hamas either.
But politically and financially it suits the powers that be in the State of Israel to keep the "threat" alive.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 9 Aug 14 at 17:57
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I'm surprised that you folks criticising Israel here, have not been branded "Racist", or even more horridly, "Anti-Semitic".
Both epithets are good tools for shutting down discussion.
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You will note I use the term "The state of Israel" Its a rant against a government and its policy.
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Similar financial situation in Afghanistan. We have spent £Billions and lost and wrecked many lives ruining Afghanistan and now the reconstruction costs are going to be higher than the cost of rebuilding Germany after WW2. tinyurl.com/pbf5om4.
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Correct and clicky version of the link is:
tinyurl.com/pbf5om4
As a full stop is treated as belonging to the link.
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Thank you! Why does tinyurl put full stops in that are not wanted I wonder?
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Why does tinyurl put full stops in that are not wanted I wonder?
As far as I can tell from having made a tinyurl, it doesn't. Likelihood you are using an autocorrect program and it made the link wrong. Just don't make a link the end of a sentence and it will probably be ok.
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I think it must have, in my case, as I created it and then copied and pasted and there it was! I take your point about the end of a sentence. Anyway, I shall know to check in future. Thanks
Last edited by: wokingham on Sun 10 Aug 14 at 10:48
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There is little doubt that in recent years, interference by the Western Nations in the affairs of the Middle East and further away, Afghanistan, have been a comprehensive failure to achieve the desired effect.
Everywhere we have poked in our noses has been left in a similar, or worse, state than before we acted.
One would think that the lesson might have been learnt by now.
I can see no possible benefit which has accrued to the West from our actions.
Dictators have been replaced by other, equally horrible groups, whose leaders continue to act in much the same, or worse, ways than those whom we toppled.
The oil continues to flow – if that was all it was about – drugs continue to pollute our societies and we continue spending billions of tax payer’s money on mini wars.
Then we have the Islamic problem to add to our woes.
It cannot be racist to discuss this question, but I fear that the spread of militant Islam – The Caliphate - if you like –poses more problems to Western civilisation and our way of life than all other causes combined. There will always be apologists for this still barbaric religion, whose tenets were laid down by a wandering desert chief in the 7th. Century. His needs were to exert his control over a nomadic people whose only normal respect was for the local strong leader. Islam was modelled on the other two main monotheistic religions – Christianity and Judaism, but with added tweaks to suit a culture of independent war-like people.
Organised religion has always been used by leaders to control the led and it is mainly this, on a practical level, that I find offensive.
Over the years Christianity has produced some pretty vile stuff in its leader’s attempts to dominate the world. Thankfully those days (excepting the few fundamentalist Christians in the good old USA and some of the equally fundamentalist Ultra- Orthodox Jewish groups) are behind us and both Judaism and Christianity have come to terms with the modern world.
This may be a weakness, as by and large, it seems that many Moslems have not had a similar enlightenment.
Now I fully accept that there must be many Moslems who are dismayed by the actions of their co-religionists, but it seems, from the outside looking in, that few are prepared to stand up and be counted when it comes to outright condemnation of their more extreme brethren.
The modern state of Israel is a special case in many ways. As we all know ,it was artificially formed (after considerable terrorism on its founding fathers part) on land which for a great many years was known as Palestine and inhabited by those who described themselves as Palestinians Arabs.
I can understand, as I have said before, that the Palestinians are angry about European settlers (OK –of Semitic origin) taking land considered to be Palestinian.
On the other hand, pragmatically, they must know that Israel will, given its wider support, never go away, many of Israel’s citizens are of the second and third generation to be born and living there and it is now unquestionably their homeland.
So – why do the Palestinians poke the lion with their sticks? Are they truly mad or just under the influence of a cynical leadership using, as ever, religion to control ordinary people?
Both sides here, I think, are equally reprehensible – the Gazans/Hamas for poking the lion, albeit with rockets, and the Israelis for responding with an utter tsunami of revenge and destruction.
A plague on both their houses.
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>> Similar financial situation in Afghanistan. We have spent £Billions and lost and wrecked many lives
>> ruining Afghanistan and now the reconstruction costs are going to be higher than the cost
>> of rebuilding Germany after WW2. tinyurl.com/pbf5om4
>>
Welcome to the forum, wokingham. I am assuming you are a new face and not someone who has changed their identity.
Welcome anyway. I hope you stick around.
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Thank you. The brain and body are old(ish), the face is new. I shall keep my head down and see how this forum works, for a while.
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Yeah, hi wokingham. Don't know if there's any link between your name and your location, but I'm just down the road in Woodley. Cheers.
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Bracknell - the Corby of Berkshire - LOL!
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>> Bracknell - the Corby of Berkshire - LOL!
>>
Full of Sweaties I presume you mean? Any particular reason apart from its proximity to major military towns, after all Dr. Johnson did once say that the finest thing a Scotsman sees is the road to England. ;-)
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No, more the grisly, derelict buildings! tinyurl.com/kv5xrwn
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I am outraged at the misery and killings of women and children in all these conflicts.Our cousins are the Apes but they behave more civilised than us.
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I chipped in £25 for Gaza relief, jointly with Mrs A.
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>> I chipped in £25 for Gaza relief, jointly with Mrs A.
Misread that as Gazza relief.....
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>jointly with Mrs A.
>>
As your moniker would suggest.
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It'll likely go on admin!
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Easy to decry those organisations and people trying to help. Easy to justify doing nothing.
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There has to be Admin doesn't there?
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Ever so slightly outraged. - Manatee
