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It looks like either Russia or the Ukraine has shot down an airliner!
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To lose one 777 is unlucky, but to lose two is careless....any evidence of a shot-down or just speculation...?
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News reporting is suggesting it was shot down. And it will have been a sophisticated missile. But how did they get hold of the missile system?
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Ukraine govt are certainly announcing it as a shoot down.
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Ah just read that.....but whose missile system, Russian, pro-Russian or Ukraine .... (or the Israelis of course :-) )
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They are saying it was probably the separatists/rebels so pro-Russia.
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Unbelievable and a tragically avoidable loss; this will likely escalate things over there.
One would hope that airlines avoided flying over combat zones for this very reason.
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>> Unbelievable and a tragically avoidable loss; this will likely escalate things over there.
>>
>> One would hope that airlines avoided flying over combat zones for this very reason.
>>
>>
>>
I would certainly not want to fly over one.
I wonder if other airlines do?
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Ukrainian pro-Russian rebels have now claimed "credit" for it. Oh dear. Must have had the missiles from Russia...whoops apocalypse...
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Malaysian Defense Minister Hishamuddin Hussein said on Twitter there's no confirmation that Thursday's plane was shot down. He said he has instructed the country's military to check and get confirmation.
The Donetsk region government said Thursday's plane crashed near a village called Grabovo, which it said is currently under the control of armed pro-Russian separatists. The region where the flight was lost has seen severe fighting between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russia separatist rebels in recent days.
A launcher similar to the Buk missile system was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne, which is held by pro-Russia rebels, earlier Thursday.
On Wednesday evening, a Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down by an air-to-air missile from a Russian plane, Ukrainian authorities said Thursday, adding to what Kiev says is mounting evidence that Moscow is directly supporting the separatist insurgents in eastern Ukraine. Security Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko said the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet hit by the air-to-air missile was forced to bail after his jet was shot down.
tinyurl.com/qypzetp
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From the Telegraph -
"More from Roland Oliphant, who has covered the Ukraine crisis extensively for The Telegraph, on the possible origin of the missile - if indeed it was a missile that shot the plane down.
The rebels say that they only have anti-aircraft weapons capable of downing aircraft up to 3000 meters - well short of the 10,000 meter cruising altitude of commercial airliners.
The most sophisticated surface to air missile system known to be in rebel hands is the Strela-10, a Soviet designed system with a ceiling of about 3,000 meters. The rebels say they have used it to down several Ukrainian aircraft in recent days.
But earlier this week the Ukrainians said a missile brought down one of their transport aircraft at over 6000 meters - which they said meant it was probably fired on by regular Russian forces from the other side of the border rather than the militia."
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I think Malaysian Airlines have probably kissed their no claims bonus goodbye this year.
The shooting down of passenger airliners is far more common place than the news jockeys would have us believe. In modern times the US Navy have done it, the Soviet airforce has have done it twice, and indeed an airliner was shot down by a Ukranian missile around 2001 - a war games accident.
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At least the Malaysians should have their disaster management response team finely honed.
Who will travel Malaysian now - not too many I would think.
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Apparently the airspace was down as an area to avoid. Other operators have been avoiding / going around so there was some discussion on Sky news as to what the hell they were doing flying through that bit anyway
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There seems to be little evidence so far that the aircraft was shot down and lilies motive for so doing. In view of the recent loss I would not rule out an on board explosion.
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>>Malaysian Defense Minister Hishamuddin Hussein said on Twitter there's no confirmation that Thursday's plane was shot down. He said he has instructed the country's military to check and get confirmation.
Don't you just love politicians? Like it wouldn't have occurred to the military to check unless he told them to!!
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So how are they going to check ?
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>> So how are they going to check ?
>>
Apparently the American spy satellites can track missile launches.
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>> >> So how are they going to check ?
There are likely to be specific chemical traces left by any explosives.
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And a missile will contribute bits of itself to the overall wreckage profile.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 17 Jul 14 at 21:10
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It'll be the Americans and the Russians doing that though.
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The circumstances of the loss - very rapid, almost instant - no mayday or warning, indicates explosion or massive hull failure. The 777 has been a reliable workhorse so explosion figures highly, either internal (bomb) or projectile.
Funny its Malaysian Airlines tho. My "two is no coincidence" antenna is twitching.
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Glad to see you're back - and no we did not run away together !
I agree with your twitches by the way. One is unlucky, two is damned careless.
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You've been remarkably tactful so far Zeddo, hope you're well?
;>)
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The conspiracy theorists might be saying it deliberately flew over an area it shouldn't. And was then either shot down or had a bomb on board. At least they know where this 777 is and can investigate. Time will tell.
In the meantime Malaysian Airlines must be at risk of going the way of Pan Am.
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>> The conspiracy theorists might be saying it deliberately flew over an area it shouldn't. And
>> was then either shot down or had a bomb on board. At least they know
>> where this 777 is and can investigate. Time will tell.
Not uncommon to be many hundreds of miles off course if avoiding thunderstorms etc.
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DM gives details of missiles used - don't know how credible this is:
tinyurl.com/q95mt87
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It's Malaysia Airlines, not Malaysian (US news media here are getting that wrong too) and yes, I'd fly with them again. Airliners fly where they're told to, so this one was merely unlucky to be where it was when someone on the ground did something foolish.
We might as well be saying 'this looks bad for Boeing'. The 777 went 15 years with only one loss and no fatalities, and now there have been three total losses in two years. Given how they've happened, do we blame the type for that?
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>> years with only one loss and no fatalities, and now there have been three total
>> losses in two years. Given how they've happened, do we blame the type for that?
>>
>>
Given the SFO incident, yes, I think we can safely blame the type for that. Pilot error, of course, but exacerbated by a truly backwards autothrust system. It is impossible for the same sequence of events to occur on any fly-by-wire Airbus type.
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>> It's Malaysia Airlines, not Malaysian (US news media here are getting that wrong too)
What a fabulously incisive relevant point - I am sure that makes a world of difference. Perhaps the Ukrainian rebels shot down the wrong plane?
>> We might as well be saying 'this looks bad for Boeing'. The 777 went 15
>> years with only one loss and no fatalities, and now there have been three total
>> losses in two years. Given how they've happened, do we blame the type for that?
Its is bad for Malaysia(n) Airlines, already struggling with large financial losses, passenger numbers through the floor, general condemnation about their handling of the missing plane, this could well be the nail in the coffin.
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It's not a charm school you've been hiding in then, Z. I presume the name matters to the company you're disparaging since it's taken the trouble to paint it on its planes.
I hope it pulls through. It's one of the nicest airlines I've flown on - hot meals even in economy on short routes within Asia - not to mention the benefit to a OneWorld flyer of being able to get to places that BA doesn't serve.
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>> It's not a charm school you've been hiding in then, Z.
Well come on, it was a well deserved rebuke for a pointless comment that offered little sensible input, merely serving up pedantry for pedantries sake.
>>I presume the name
>> matters to the company you're disparaging since it's taken the trouble to paint it on
>> its planes.
I am not disparaging the company, BUT - The name painted on its planes is now a hinderance. It has been a financial basket case for a number of years and its local reputation is in tatters after its handling of the missing flight. Its bleeding money rapidly and unless fully nationalised will be gone in 12 months.
>> I hope it pulls through. It's one of the nicest airlines I've flown on -
>> hot meals even in economy on short routes within Asia - not to mention the
>> benefit to a OneWorld flyer of being able to get to places that BA doesn't
>> serve.
I too have flown Malaysia(n) Airlines, several times in fact. Found them to be a perfectly pleasant airline, and I would fly with them again. However the vast majority of passengers don't thunk like you or me.
Its a dead duck in its current form.
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>> It's Malaysia Airlines, not Malaysian
I assume you're not referring to the thread title as well. Because the thread title is correct. But yes a few of us said Malaysian Airlines.
I can't see them surviving this. They were already in a poor financial state after all.
But lets not forget the tragedy and loss of life. We'll know more sooner rather than later I suppose.
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Actually I did mistype it didn't it. I meant to type airliner. But that's trivial.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 18 Jul 14 at 17:20
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>> In the meantime Malaysian Airlines must be at risk of going the way of Pan
>> Am.
Industry opinion indeed indicates they think the Airline, (already losing 1.6 million $ a day) is doomed to disappear. Malaysia being what it is will probably fully renationalise it again and rebrand.
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The obvious thought, of course, is is this America's "Lusitania moment" ?
There were similar warnings in 1915 against routing civilian traffic through a war-zone, similarly ignored. Two years later, America finally committed to supporting the fight for civilisation and freedom, in the form of 2 million soldiers.
But I can't see Obama having the necessary resolve and stature to do anything, except by accident.
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It seems as OSCE team is on the way to investigate. Hopefully it has the skills to analyse the wreckage to ascertain what kind of incident is to blame, missiles, bombs or aircraft faults.
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"But I can't see Obama having the necessary resolve and stature to do anything, except by accident."
What do you think he should do - declare war on Russia?
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>> "But I can't see Obama having the necessary resolve and stature to do anything, except
>> by accident."
>>
>> What do you think he should do - declare war on Russia?
Well we could follow the guidance provided by USS Vincennes, the AEGIS cruiser that shot down an unarmed Iranian civilian airliner, in Iranian airspace, squawking Mode III civilian id.
The Crew were all awarded combat action medals, The Air Warfare officer responsible for identifying threats was awarded the Navy Commendation Medal, and the Captain was awarded the Legion of Merit.
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>> The Crew were all awarded combat action medals, The Air Warfare officer responsible for identifying
>> threats was awarded the Navy Commendation Medal, and the Captain was awarded the Legion of
>> Merit.
>>
For that particular action or at other points in their career?
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>> >> The Crew were all awarded combat action medals, The Air Warfare officer responsible for
>> identifying
>> >> threats was awarded the Navy Commendation Medal, and the Captain was awarded the Legion
>> of
>> >> Merit.
>> >>
>>
>> For that particular action or at other points in their career?
After that event. Cant say because of that event, but some of them shouldn't have had a career after.
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>> >>
>> >> For that particular action or at other points in their career?
>>
>> After that event. Cant say because of that event, but some of them shouldn't have
>> had a career after.
I wasn't there but perhaps it was more complex than at first glance and they made a horrible mistake, but were good eggs before and after.
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>> "But I can't see Obama having the necessary resolve and stature to do anything, except
>> by accident."
>>
>> What do you think he should do - declare war on Russia?
>>
No, of course not. That's my point, and has been all along on this Ukraine business.
Anything the West threatens in response is worthless because our bluff can always be called.
Kennedy was ready to risk war, sensing that Kruschev would blink first. Obama is not in the Kennedy league.
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>> Kennedy was ready to risk war, sensing that Kruschev would blink first. Obama is
>> not in the Kennedy league.
>>
If you are referring to the Cuban Missile crisis, then you are simplifying and comparing two entirely different scenarios.
Stopping a ship of a foreign government on the high seas is one thing, carrying out ground based operations in a foreign country would be entirely different. To the best of my memory no one was killed or injured in the Cuban Missile Crisis.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_missile_crisis
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>>Obama is not in the Kennedy league.
A small mercy that we should all be grateful for.
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>> A small mercy that we should all be grateful for.
Indeed FMR. Obama is a high-minded intellectual and experienced ward-heeling politician, not the spoiled hobbledehoy darling of an evil old Boston Irish mafioso.
Obama can really do it but he's not being allowed to. Best president since Truman.
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"No, of course not. That's my point, and has been all along on this Ukraine business."
As as I said what do you think he should do? You seem to be saying that the US/West should offer an ultimatum to Russia to cease backing hostilities in Ukraine and stand by that ultimatum whatever up to the point of war, possibly nuclear, assuming Russia will comply.
Seems a huge risk.
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>> Hasn't taken long for the loonies to get in on the act -
The Daily Mail is like that though aren't they. At times loonies. But the bit about Putin's plane flying just after it... is that true? Didn't they count the engines?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 18 Jul 14 at 21:38
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Perhaps times haven't changed that much. But when there was all that east-west carp there was sometimes a bit of what passed for advanced weaponry put about. I knew slightly some desert men who got SAMs of Soviet origin to scare off the western-supplied strike fighters their enemies were using. I think the SAMs were operated by Cubans. They worked anyway.
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>> SAMs of Soviet origin to scare off the western-supplied strike fighters their enemies were using.
And once they loosed one off at a light aircraft carrying tourists, accidentally of course but tourists dead, guerrillas embarrassed.
Awful things, guided missiles. Once they have that heat source or radar blip in their crosshairs there's virtually no escape, if the weapon works properly.
Some have an auto-destruct capability in case the operator changes his mind before impact.
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What a civilised discussion on here.Very informative one doesn't stop learning.
Not one word about all the lives lost on this plane included 100 children.
My condolences to all the family of the deceased.Putin has blood on his hands in my opinion and no matter how he tries the Russians can't wriggle out of this.
Just my few pennies worth.Sorry about grammar and spelling in case anybody comments.
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Nice to hear from you, Dutchie! We all hope you are well. Your English puts many a native speaker's to shame - so no need to apologise :-)
Among the usual invective and silly comments, there are a few postings here from people who sound as though they might have some knowledge of SAMs.
order-order.com/2014/07/18/watch-cameron-statement-on-ukraine-plane-crash/#comments
Last edited by: Roger. on Sat 19 Jul 14 at 08:08
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>> What a civilised discussion on here.Very informative one doesn't stop learning.
>>
>> Not one word about all the lives lost on this plane included 100 children.
I hope that's because it should go without saying, not because nobody cares.
It seems likely to me that it was an accident - who would gain from killing 300 people like that?
A rebel leader made a social media post to the effect that they had shot down a Ukrainian transport. It was removed soon afterwards, as it became apparent that an airliner had come down.
Coincidence, I don't think.
Assuming it was the rebels (no reason for the Ukrainians to shoot at a plan leaving their airspace) the question is where did they get the missiles?
The options seem to be that they have been captured from one of the Ukrainian army bases overrun by the rebels, or supplied by the Russians.
Whoever operated it would need some days of training, according to the pundit from Jane's.
Appalling behaviour by Putin regardless.
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I was brought up short yesterday when discussing this with a colleague.
He was saying that his family's reaction was probably typica,l and indeed was similar to ours when we first heard.
It went something like "Wow that's terrible, all those people, gosh, dreadful...Now, what shall we have for tea?"
Then the details of the victims emerged, and it turns out that the young British lad on his way to university in Australia was his daughter's best friend's brother...
A boy they have known as a child growing up, a neighbour, a real person, who has been to their house, from a real family they know very well. Of course, all the victims are real people, from real families. But human nature being what it is, we tend not to relate so strongly to these things unless there is a connection, however tenuous.
Stuff like that changes your view. It shouldn't but it does. Makes it somehow personal for them. Close to home sort of thing.
Strangely, even I, who have no connection at all with the poor guy, find myself empathising with his parents, family and friends.
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>> Strangely, even I, who have no connection at all with the poor guy, find myself
>> empathising with his parents, family and friends.
I was left pretty cold and emotionally uninterested in this, but fascinated and intrigued by the technical details and political fall out.
until
I read it was reported that 60 children perished. A family, wife and two young kids was wiped out.
A guy posted a picture of his plane before departure on his Facebook, joking that "if it goes missing this is what to look for"
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>> I was brought up short yesterday when discussing this with a colleague.
>>
>> He was saying that his family's reaction was probably typica,l and indeed was similar to
>> ours when we first heard.
>>
>> It went something like "Wow that's terrible, all those people, gosh, dreadful...Now, what shall we
>> have for tea?"
>>
>> Then the details of the victims emerged, and it turns out that the young British
>> lad on his way to university in Australia was his daughter's best friend's brother...
>>
Wow, small world assuming we are referring to the same lad. My mate was telling me that the guy was the friend of the daughter of one of his wife's team at work. Said Daughter also lost another friend in an unrelated incident last summer to.
Odd how bad luck sometimes appears to follow people. Does leave one wondering if everything is already mapped out.
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>> Odd how bad luck sometimes appears to follow people. Does leave one wondering if everything
>> is already mapped out.
Oh yes, it is. Your sell by date is stamped on you as soon as you are manufactured.
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>>Oh yes, it is. Your sell by date is stamped on you as soon as you are manufactured.
You believe in predestination?
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>> You believe in predestination?
>>
I do as long as my satnav is working properly :-)
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>> >>Oh yes, it is. Your sell by date is stamped on you as soon as
>> you are manufactured.
>>
>> You believe in predestination?
No. - Determinism
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Not unlikely Mikey. I think you are in the SW? I'm in Wells regularly where we have an office and of course the people there live within commuting distance of it.
Almost certainly there is at least a loose connection between people you know and some I do.
About 25 years ago I lived in Croscombe for a while.
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>> Whoever operated it would need some days of training, according to the pundit from Jane's.
>>
>> Appalling behaviour by Putin regardless.
It is reported and surmised, that the missile launcher was supplied by the Soviets but without proper radar facilities (and possibly hence no IFF capabilities) and certainly with no proper target identification working.
It is also reported that the said missile launcher was seen and videod hurrying back across the border minus two missiles.
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from pprune
Russian media has reported each of these incidents separately, each time kind of celebrating them as DNR achievements:
14 July, 12:00, Aviation Safety Network Criminal Occurrence description
14 July, 18:24, LifeNews, Ополченцы взÑли в плен Ñкипаж Ñбитого Ðн-26 украинÑких ВВС (Self-defense took POV the crew of downed Ukrainian An-26)
17 July, 18:34, LifeNews, Ополченцы Ñообщили о Ñбитом Ðн-26 на воÑтоке Украины (Self-defense shoot down an An-26 in eastern Ukraine)
17 July, 20:01, ITAR-TASS Donetsk People’s Republic militia downs another Ukraine’s An-26 plane — eyewitnesses
The problem with the last two from 17 July is that there was no An-26 shoot down at that day. And these news reports were published just a moment before it became evident that he alleged An-26 came out to be Boeing-777.
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Kiev ATC (allegedly) says Ukraine did it
slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/
Unfortunately facts are in short supply.
Telegraph - goo.gl/upCDoZ - adds a qualifier to the claim that MH17 was using the same route as many other airlines. Whilst earlier MH17 flights and other airlines had been overflying Ukraine, this flight was 300 miles further north - possibly avoiding weather.
I should perhaps qualify my earlier comment that Ukraine has nothing to gain from shooting down an airliner - "unless it can blame Russia and/or the rebels".
In the absence of facts, conspiracy theories will fill the void.
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>> Just my few pennies worth.Sorry about grammar and spelling in case anybody comments.
You are a civilised cat Dutchman but here you are being sarcastic about our perceived heartlessness.
As Zero points out the hardware, software and general tech stuff are absolutely fascinating in themselves, as so often with weapons. But it's a bit boring to do a formal wailing-and-gnashing-of-teeth every time some innocents perish in an accident/vile terrorist act or something. The technical aspect and the human aspect are two completely different things.
Unless you separate them into different mental compartments you can't talk or think sensibly about either.
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Well said AC, the voice of reason yet again today!
As I'm working today I can but hope it continues and EC Regulation 561/2006 will become a doddle!
Pat
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>> >>The technical
>> aspect and the human aspect are two completely different things.
>>
>> Unless you separate them into different mental compartments you can't talk or think sensibly about
>> either.
>>
And the political aspect is another.
Of course the Russian behaviour is cynical bararism, but it's hardly new. We worked with such people in the past when it suited us, and we shunned them with simulated outrage when we had more to gain from that response. That's what we employ politicians for - to think and do the unthinkable and the unpalatable.
But Putin suspects that western politicians have gone soft along with their democracies, and he is in the process of testing his hunch to see just how far he can go. The risk is that he will assume thay have a greater sense of political reality than they have, and that Obama and Cameron will walk blinkered up a cul de sac with no retreat and no options.
There are few things more dangerous than a weak man with public opinion on his side.
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>> Of course the Russian behaviour is cynical bararism,
I am amazed by the wealth of inside knowledge people seem to have about Russian and Ukrainian motives and attitudes.
My impression was that a guided missile of Russian manufacture was accidentally or maliciously fired at a Malaysian passenger aircraft taking a risk with airspace best avoided. Apart from supplying the weapons to ethnic-Russian eastern Ukrainians Russia had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
No state can avoid cynical barbarism for long. That includes ours and those of our closest allies.
The media give the impression that our mighty western leaders are ordering Vladimir Putin about and stuffing him back in his box. This is pure excrement. They are certainly being a lot more polite than their running dogs want us to believe, hardly surprisingly as it doesn't seem likely that Russia wants a war and is therefore in general agreement with these red-faced gobbling leaders of ours.
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>> Apart from supplying
>> the weapons to ethnic-Russian eastern Ukrainians Russia had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
You may well be right, but why haven't they helped with the up-to-now shambolic investigation? Given that the crash site is (AFAIK) in a Pro-Russian area, you'd have thought they could have done more if they wanted to.
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From what I gather from various papers, run of the mill guerrilla training is unlikely to cover these missiles. More likely is that there is a Russian team to lay the gun using the radar. But what do I know? It's all press derived.
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Mon 21 Jul 14 at 14:58
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>> run of the mill guerrilla training is unlikely to cover these missiles. More likely is that there is a >> Russian team to lay the gun using the radar.
It's not a gun Nortones, it's a guided missile.
You're right that guerilla training probably doesn't cover all the myriad forms of SAMs and SSMs. But the smaller handheld things come in convenient throwaway packages with a launcher, 2 missiles and simple instructions... anyone semi-literate and mechanically minded can operate them without training. Even the bigger, longer-range things like this BUK can certainly be operated with fairly minimal training.
Of course that 'fairly minimal' becomes significant in a case like this one. Mistakes can be made. Has the BUK got an auto-destruct function? Did the people who shot down the airliner know how to work that?
There was a clip last night of eastern Ukrainians inspecting the wreckage and saying things like: 'Oh damn, these are private possessions not military stuff,' indicating clearly that they had been told it was a Kiev military aircraft and were horrified by the ballsup. Could have been faked but I don't think it was.
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I stand corrected! But it would still require radar knowledge and all the rest. Here is an article purporting to give info on the thing: sofrep.com/36195/one-missile-298-lives-lost-profile-buk-9k37-sa-11-gadfly-sam/
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Obama always gives the impression of being brighter than his advisers.
I imagine he has been on the red phone to Putin and said "Let's think about what we can do from here so both of us can come out of this OK".
Barbaric or not, Russia is just behaving like a superpower. The Americans are much the same if you are looking down the other end of the telescope.
What did we expect, chipping away at the former Soviet bloc, welcoming Russia's neighbours into NATO and the EU?
I stopped at the American Cemetery in Cambridge yesterday for half an hour. The fact that it is American is not relevant. I thought then that national leaders should be obliged to reflect in a place like that before puffing their chests out and issuing threats, large or small.
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What does the team think of this?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28405047
Personally, I think the fellow overstepped the mark, but soon realised it.
It must be a difficult balance sometimes with journalism... and in this instance there's no real policing of the crash site.
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I'd go with that. He stepped WAY over the mark, but its easy to do.
He ought to be told off strongly, it was insensitive, and the matter then left at that; and everybody else in the glasshouse should stop throwing stones.
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Mind you, I also think the world needs to get over itself.
It is desperately sad, and wrong, that so many innocent people should be killed. But that would still be true if they'd been bombed in a shopping centre by a suicide bomber.
If the world has situations where people are flinging stuff around it is inevitable that the wrong, or at least uninvolved, people are going to get killed. This doesn't appear significantly different to any incidents of death by "friendly fire" - it still entails killing uninvolved civilians where one intended to kill involved combatants of one sort or another - and just about every group of people, every military force, every country and every other entity has committed that act at one point or another.
The world needs to not focus on the fact that it was a plane, that it was shot down by one side or the other, that it contained civilians, or anything else.
It should focus on the fact that the situation exists and that it, and others, need resolving, that people are dying, and not pin everything on a single incident or a single "culprit".
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>> It should focus on the fact that the situation exists and that it, and others, need resolving, that people are dying, and not pin everything on a single incident or a single "culprit".
I never did television, or hardly any. When I did, the camera people didn't drop me in it or try to make me look bad. The clip showed a guy doing what any hack would do, turning over and examining any documentary or other evidence to hand. I've done it myself a few times. Have times changed or what? I just don't get the screams of outrage.
There was another clip last night on Sky I think, showing eastern Ukrainians turning over the wreckage and expressing surprise that the stuff was civilian, not military. Why no screams of outrage about that one?
What a load of old cobblers. 'The world' doesn't have focus so it doesn't matter a damn what it focuses on. It's me that matters (and thee of course).
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>> What does the team think of this?
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-28405047
>>
>> Personally, I think the fellow overstepped the mark, but soon realised it.
It was a terrible thing to do, pawing over someones possessions, in front of a camera that would then be shown to relatives on TV. To be fair, its the first time anyone on western TV has had unrestricted access to a crash site, he was probably in some form of shock having never seen stuff like this, this close for the first time, but he realised it was the wrong thing to do.
The real blame goes to the editor, who allowed it to be broadcast.
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>> >> Apart from supplying
>> the weapons to ethnic-Russian eastern Ukrainians Russia had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
>>
"Apart from supplying the guns to the criminals I had nothing to do with the bank robbery"
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>> >> >> Apart from supplying
>> >> the weapons to ethnic-Russian eastern Ukrainians Russia had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
>>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Apart from supplying the guns to the criminals I had nothing to do with the
>> bank robbery"
Oh and I supplied the criminals.
Quote - Independent: Igor Girkin, better known as Igor Strelkov, the man who heads the Donetsk Peoples Army appears on a European Sanctions list where he said to be on the staff of Russian Military Intelligence.
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Russia has everything to do with it.Russia took Crimea and is carrying on destabilising the Ukrain.
Nothing will happen regarding sanctions in my opinion money speaks louder than words.Maybe it is time for us to leave Europe we where never part of it and never will be.There is no unity in Europe the airline crisis proves this again.I say this as a Dutch citizen living in the U.K.Or do we have to wait for the Mrs Merkel to make decisions for us.?
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>> Russia took Crimea and is carrying on destabilising the Ukrain.
Russia took Crimea a very long time ago and the region has been essentially Russian or Soviet ever since, whatever the maps may have made out.
The present instability in Ukraine started with an upsurge of right-wing nationalism apparently out of nowhere, but very obviously American-inspired. Everything else including Putin's involvement just followed naturally from that. The place has been turned into a goddam lavatory by the West, not the Russians. It's obvious that Putin is comfortable. You can tell from the Cheshire-cat smirk on his face.
You are right though Dutchie about the gobbling red-faced uselessness of all these Western threats. I'm surprised and shocked that some here seem to be swallowing the pap being churned out by the 'official Western media'.
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"I'm surprised and shocked that some here seem to be swallowing the pap being churned out by the 'official Western media'. "
I'm even more surprised that you seem to have bought into Putin's version of events hook line and sinker. I don't think your take on events has much support here or in the media right or left wing "official" or otherwise.
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>> I don't think your take on events has much support here or in the media right or left wing "official" or otherwise.
No. That's what surprises and shocks me. Damn coldwar pap for halfwits.
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I find it hard to imagine Americans inspiring anyone. How do you think they achieved a nationalist upsurge?
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>> How do you think they achieved a nationalist upsurge?
Money and idiots, the latter never in short supply.
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Am I alone in observing a disparity in the level of media headline coverage?
Deliberate government action -
"Gaza's list of the dead crossed 500 and keeps climbing, according to figures from the health ministry here. The UN says the vast majority are civilians; many are children." from BBC 22/7
A mistake in target evaluation, probably by an individual, and colateral casualties of war -
"The Malaysian Airlines crash in east Ukraine, which killed 298 people, is a "defining moment" for Moscow, Prime Minister David Cameron said on Monday."
or is it an example of the 1 Brit, 10 Europeans, 1000 Arabs/Africans, 10,000Indians, or 100,000 Chinese threshold evaluation employed by the UK media?
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Tue 22 Jul 14 at 09:29
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Of course there will be more attention on the shot down airliner. Some of our citizens were murdered, its in our back yard, and it could have effects on us in the near future.
Meawhile in Gazza
No brits have been killed, its ruddy miles away, and won't make the blindest bit of difference to us in the future how many Palestinians get killed.
Oh and the State of Israel is always doing this, and they will do it again in the future. Nothing agitates the peace of the middle east more than the actions of the State of Israel. Israeli politics depends on keeping the region in a state of emergency. Its not news.
Airliners don't often get shot down by one of the major powers, so it is news.
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The modern state of Israel was formed on land taken from its then, Arab, owners and subsequently populated by people of mostly European origins and culture. Centuries after the Diaspora it seems likely that specifically middle Eastern culture had been lost. What, for instance, has a Russian, or German, Jewish person have in common with an Arab Palestinian other than mutual suspicion?
The purpose seems to have been to assuage Western guilt over the dreadful Holocaust et al. There was of course, intense pressure from the USA, where the Zionist lobby was and is, particularly influential.
One can understand the Arabs being miffed (!) by this, as they see it, theft and occupation of their land.
On the other hand, Israel is now a fact.
Given the unstinting support from its main benefactor (the USA) this will never change.
It is time for the Arabs to understand this and make a sensible Realpolitik decision to achieve a modus vivendi with Israel.
Better historians than I - feel free to comment!
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Aircraft disasters are always big news. Most people fly and they can relate to the experience. Then there's the technical aspects and the speculation as to the cause. That combined with a minor war and a baddy in the form of Mr Putin makes the story irresistible.
If news stories were about human suffering and misery then the famine in South Sudan or the AIDS epidemic in Southern Africa would be in the news every day but really deep down people don't care about the death and suffering of people they don't know.
More than ten times the number of people killed in this accident die every day on the roads throughout the world. Just not newsworthy
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Plane and train crashes and passenger ships that sink hit the headlines because they strike at the heart of some of our worst fears. When onboard any of the three we are totally in the control of other people and can do nothing to rectify any errors they make. Car accidents don't bother us because we feel that if we get into an emergency situation we can do something about it before we get hurt.
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All that article does is just re-enforce the missile truth.
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The article is demented internet trash, far too long and full of alleged proofs to carry conviction.
It is true however that the West started all this trouble in Ukraine. Not 'Obama', but the West anyway.
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The official report confirms it was a missile which downed this flight. I'm just reading the report and one thing has struck me - don't the crew have an easy life? In the past 30 days before the crash, (which generously is 20 working days of 7 hours i.e. 140 hours) one captain flew for 34 hours, the other for 62 hours, and the First Officers did 40 and 28 hours.
What else do they do? I guess there are ground procedures, training, vacation & sick but none of them have got close to half the available time. I'm sure there is an explanation.
Report is here cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/report-mh17-crash-en.pdf
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>> The official report confirms it was a missile which downed this flight. I'm just reading
>> the report and one thing has struck me - don't the crew have an easy
>> life? In the past 30 days before the crash, (which generously is 20 working days
>> of 7 hours i.e. 140 hours) one captain flew for 34 hours, the other for
>> 62 hours, and the First Officers did 40 and 28 hours.
>>
>> What else do they do? I guess there are ground procedures, training, vacation & sick
>> but none of them have got close to half the available time. I'm sure there
>> is an explanation.
>>
>> Report is here cdn.onderzoeksraad.nl/documents/report-mh17-crash-en.pdf
>>
- Part time?
- Leave?
- Ground training?
- Sickness?
In the last 30 days I've only flown 31 hours, last 90 days I've flown 183 hours, and my rolling 12 month total is 799 hours.
"Flight" hours don't reflect duty hours which aren't included in the report. I can spend all day sat on the aircraft but until the brakes are released the clock doesn't start.
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>I can spend all day sat on the aircraft..
Yeah, I've had three flights out to Germany in the last couple of weeks that were like that.
Oddest one was a Lufthansa flight to Stuttgart when the crew announced that the delay was due to a passenger having 'military equipment' in his checked luggage that was not allowed and needed to be removed from the hold.
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>> "Flight" hours don't reflect duty hours which aren't included in the report. I can spend
>> all day sat on the aircraft but until the brakes are released the clock doesn't
>> start.
>>
Am I right in thinking the JAR limit for rolling 12 month flight time is 900hrs?
Presumably, you report for duty some time before boarding so as to check weather, routings NOTAMs etcc and equally remain on duty after arriving on stand until post flight reports, tech logs etc are done.
In addition to the all of that you can also be stuck either at home or on the airport on standby to step in for sick or delayed crew?
And for an example of why we need regulations that are enforced see:
assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/561f6bd8e5274a6251000019/VP-MON_ECCAA_Accident_Report.pdf
An inter island flight in the Caribbean brought down by water in fuel. Not so much the holes in the cheese lining up as a complete lack of cheese between the holes.
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True, but there are lots of ways around the regulations. For example, starting before 6am is considered to be particularly tiring and so the maximum flight duty period is considerably reduced. But if you start in a different time zone, provided it's within three hours of your "home" time zone you're considered to be acclimatised, even if you only spend 10 hours there.
So the report time is at 6am local, meaning you can do the full 14 hour duty day despite your body thinking it's 4am. It's only going to get worse with the EASA changes.
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Malaysian Airline Shot Down! - R.P.
