Non-motoring > Potential completely secret terrorist trial	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Crankcase	Replies: 26

Thu 5 Jun 14 16:23   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Crankcase

"Exceptional circumstances" or "such a significant departure from the principle of open justice they are inconsistent with the rule of law and democratic accountability."? www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jun/04/major-terrorism-trial-secret-first-time-legal-history My gut reaction is that an entirely secret trial with a permanent prohibition of reporting of any aspect cannot be the right thing to do in the UK, irrespective of consequence. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 18:06   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - No FM2R

Depends on what is secret, in my mind. If the evidence is secret because it could compromise someone else, or other investigations, then fair enough. If their identity is secret because they don't want to alert their organizations, then fair enough. The fact that the trial is taking place, should not be secret. I think my issue is with the word "permanent". Seems like it ought to be 5 years or something. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 19:22   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Westpig

This is a real dilemma. It's the same principle (but obviously completely different end of the criminal spectrum) as the confiscating cars for 'no insurance' debate. Is it a worrying drift from some basic principles and safeguards...'yes', probably. But if it works, is it justifiable?...'yes' probably. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 20:29   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Haywain

Couldn't they have just 'disappeared'? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 20:46   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Bromptonaut

I think I can almost agree that there are (albeit very, very few) cases where a 'closed' procedure and restrictions on reporting of evidence is potentially justified. Idea that people can be tried, convicted and sentenced without any report whatsoever is abhorrent in any society and more so given UK's lack of constitution and tendency to elective dictatorship. An excellent example of why we need the ECHR and it's principles incorporated into domestic law in form of Human Rights Act. In any event it's absolutely VITAL that decisions rest with Judges and not politicians. Remember 'Arms to Iraq' trial and the subsequent report by Sir Richard Scott. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 5 Jun 14 at 20:47 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 20:58   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Robin O'Reliant

Perhaps Blair and Bush are on trial and the publicity would be embarrassing? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 20:58   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Cliff Pope

I think it's a disgrace to British justice. Even Nazi and Stalinist show trials were at least held in public, as were the most blatantly rigged trials from the Tudor and Stuart period. Only in places like North Korea are we told afterwards that someone has been convicted. Almost anywhere else in the world suspects are at least accorded a public trial, whatever mockery of justice the actual process might be. Apparently they had intended to keep secret even the existence of a trial. So indeed they might just as well "disappear" the suspects - drop them out of a helicopter at sea? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 22:02   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Mike H

>> Idea that people can be tried, convicted and sentenced without any report whatsoever is abhorrent >> "Abhorrent" is a strong word. Records will be kept. Why on earth should it be "reported" if national security is at stake, and the "reporting" would potentially endanger lives? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 22:20   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Bromptonaut

>> "Abhorrent" is a strong word. Records will be kept. Why on earth should it be >> "reported" if national security is at stake, and the "reporting" would potentially endanger lives? If National Security and lives are REALLY at stake then conditions my post had in mind MIGHT be met. My point was that such cases should be incredibly rare and that decisions should rest with a Senior Judge rather than politicians. In Arms to Iraq case innocent people who'd done as their government asked were in danger of imprisonment when political wind changed and Ministers wanted to cover their tracks. Fortunately ministers like Geoffrey Howe had principles. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 22:29   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Roger.

Why should one trust "A senior judge"? An establishment figure par excellence! Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 5 Jun 14 23:49   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - CGNorwich

Who would you trust then Roger? Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 6 Jun 14 14:39   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Cliff Pope

>> Who would you trust then Roger? >> The whole point of British justice is collectively we trust each other. Not individually, of course there are untrustworthy crooks, but we have a justice system that has a jury, identifiable judges, and free reporting of the trial. Of course certain evidence can be heard in secret in exceptional circumstances, but that's a long way short of saying the entire trial needs to be secret. Is this proposed court going to have a jury - presumably not? A judge - how do we know? Are the defendants going to have lawyers? Are they going to be able to call their own witnesses? Are they to be allowed to speak in their own defence even? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 11:13   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Crankcase

I see the goalposts have shifted a little on this one, at least. Now the suspects have been named, and the public/press are to be allowed in at the start and end, but not for the actual core of the case. The verdicts, if any, will also now be public. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10894252/Secret-terror-trial-suspects-are-named-but-core-of-case-to-be-heard-behind-closed-doors.html Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 11:55   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Cliff Pope

>> I see the goalposts have shifted a little on this one, at least. But only because of constant vigilance and pressure by the press and public opinion. Not because "they" had second thoughts about infringing ancient freedoms. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 12:03   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - No FM2R

The prosecutor openly applied for secrecy in accordance with the law, the media objected as is their right, the judges came up with a seemingly sensible middle road having considered the issue. Did I miss something? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 12:16   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Bromptonaut

>> Did I miss something? Yes. Only because we have a vigilant media prepared to put its own funds on the line do we know ANYTHING about this case. If they'd lost or if the case wasn't thought worthy of press attention then the whole thing might have happened in secret. That's not the sort of 'democracy' I want to be party too. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 18:30   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Westpig

>> Only because we have a vigilant media prepared to put its own funds on the >> line do we know ANYTHING about this case. >> >> If they'd lost or if the case wasn't thought worthy of press attention then the >> whole thing might have happened in secret. >> >> That's not the sort of 'democracy' I want to be party too. >> I've tried to go down the 'high horse' route ..but ..just can't manage it. If one of the foremost democracies of the world thinks that a trial is needed in private, I'd go with it. There are considerably more places in the world that need looking at closely before this one. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 21:09   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Cliff Pope

If the foremost democracy in the world has to resort to this sort thing, then there's not much hope for the rest. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 12 Jun 14 21:36   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Bromptonaut

>> If one of the foremost democracies of the world thinks that a trial is needed >> in private, I'd go with it. Democracy - election of government by majority - and constraint of executive power are different subjects, >> There are considerably more places in the world that need looking at closely before this >> one. But I live in this one. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 22:13   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - No FM2R

How did our "vigilant media" find out about the case? Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 13 Jun 14 09:23   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Bromptonaut

>> How did our "vigilant media" find out about the case? I din't know for sure but I suspect there's a mechanism whereby they're advised, like in case of civil injunctions, of restraint on reporting. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 12:09   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Bromptonaut

>> Is this proposed court going to have a jury - presumably not? >> A judge - how do we know? >> Are the defendants going to have lawyers? >> Are they going to be able to call their own witnesses? >> Are they to be allowed to speak in their own defence even? It seems as though there will be a jury though probably subject to additional vetting. Defendants have lawyers and an 'advocate' who has seen any evidence that the prosecution are not willing to disclose directly. There's an article from the Mail describing how the 'special advocate works here: www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2114162/Closed-material-procedure-Barrister-describes-twisted-justice-worthy-Franz-Kafka.html These processes are well established and are used in other 'National Security' related forums such as the Special Immigration Appeal Tribunal. There are also provisions for a similar process where Planning Permission for security sensitive installations is sought and opposed. The defendants in current case can call their own witneses to for example character. However it is much more difficult, as the article linked sets out, for them to challenge assertions in the closed material as they don't get to see it. Today's CofA judgement is here: www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/guardian-v-ab-cd.pdf Not had time to read it yet and AIUI fuller detailed detailed reasons are to follow. Guardian reports gist is accepted by Crown/CPS, including presence of 'pool' reporters during closed section of trial. There will probably be further wrangling over what can be reported of any conviction and sentence and of subsequent moves to publish, presumably approved/redacted, accounts from the 'pool' reporters. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 12 Jun 14 at 12:12 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 12:44   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Cliff Pope

I know this is unlikely, but what happens if someone is aquitted? Could he be prevented from talking about his own trial? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 12:57   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Duncan

>> I know this is unlikely, but what happens if someone is aquitted? Could he be >> prevented from talking about his own trial? >> Probably not, but I think the media could be prevented from reporting it. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 12 Jun 14 14:30   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Robin O'Reliant

I can see possible reasons for certain aspects of the case to be kept from the public domain. The case as I understand involves charges of making or conspiring to make bombs. If these devices were of a nuclear or chemical nature (Not impossible in this day and age) details of how the accused planned to obtain and assemble the devices would not be something anyone would want publicised. Reply to this message | Report message

Sat 14 Jun 14 20:42   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Bromptonaut

Another perspective: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/14/secret-justice-will-lead-to-paranoia Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 17 Jun 14 09:10   Potential completely secret terrorist trial - Bromptonaut

Trial postponed until October but further hearing on legalities to take place next month. www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jun/16/secret-terror-trial-delayed-october Reply to this message | Report message