Non-motoring > Scottish independence	Green Issues
Thread Author: Mapmaker	Replies: 217

New Tue 20 May 14 15:06   Scottish independence - Mapmaker

I haven't seen a thread on this here, but maybe I've been asleep. Spent the last weekend in Glasgow, what a nice city; hadn't realised that in the 19th Century it was Britain's second city, thanks to the wealth generated by ship building. I had occasion to talk to one or two of the locals and conversation went round to the referendum. Now, as a Tory, I'm a Unionist. But I've no idea why, and have now been converted to the idea that if the silly Scots want to go off in poverty, then they should feel free to. They really hate the English, don't they! Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 15:11   Scottish independence - Dog

>>They really hate the English, don't they! Tell us something we don't know. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Tue 20 May 14 15:20   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>> I'm a Unionist ..... and have now been converted to the idea that if the silly Scots want to go off in poverty, then they should feel free to. I couldn't agree more. Other than my emotions as a unionist, I really don't see a downside. And joy of joys, if nothing else, the incessant whining will stop. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 15:28   Scottish independence - Bromptonaut

Another perspective: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jon-snow/jon-snow-scottish-independence_b_5271470.html?utm_hp_ref=uk Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 16:30   Scottish independence - Haywain

"For too many in Britain, Westminster's fiddling is breeding political despair. It is despair that seems to be delivering Ukip south of the border and the possibility of a Yes vote north of it." I couldn't have put it better, myself. I don't want them to go but, as someone said earlier, it will at least put a stop to the endless whining. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 15:34   Scottish independence - Stuu

I have no issue with Scottish independance, good luck to em if they want it, I feel any union that a critical mass are unhappy with should be dissolved. Whether Salmond can win the vote who knows but he is certainly the best shot Scotland will have at independance for this generation and I do wonder whether people will take a chance on it regardless of the economic arguments. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Tue 20 May 14 15:47   Scottish independence - madf

As an exiled Scot, I say let them go.. And close the border as well. Reply to this message | Report message       3

New Tue 20 May 14 16:29   Scottish independence - Manatee

>>They really hate the >> English, don't they! Can't say I've noticed, and I've spent a lot of time there. If there's to be a referendum then we should all vote. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 16:40   Scottish independence - commerdriver

>> >>They really hate the English, don't they! As an exiled scot with family and many friends up there, no "they" don't hate the english. There is the same percentage of neanderthal trolls north of the border as south, the only difference is that instead of having a number of different hates, blacks / scousers / romanians / tories / europeans or whoever, up there the troll minority all have a single focus for their feelings - the English. Most of us, even down here I am still a Scot, are reasonable folks. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 20 May 14 16:40   Scottish independence - Armel Coussine

The Scots don't hate the English. That's just footie posturing. Sure, there are bigots and loons in every population, but the general feeling is very far from hatred. My feeling - anyway my earnest hope - is that they won't vote for independence. I don't think they have a proper reason to. EDIT: great minds think alike commerdriver don't you find? We posted simultaneously. :o} Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 20 May 14 at 16:42 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 16:48   Scottish independence - Stuartli

My family has a lot of Scottish blood in its history but, like the majority of friends who also have a similar background but have left the country over the years, the view is that the Scots should vote 100 per cent for independence. With a population of just five million they will almost certainly reach the conclusion not all that long after they gain their "freedom" that what a truly momentous mistake they have made..... It's a Salmond ego trip and I'm surprised that the normally sensible Nicola Sturgeon has followed his views. Last edited by: Stuartli on Tue 20 May 14 at 16:50 Reply to this message | Report message       3

New Tue 20 May 14 17:43   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> >> It's a Salmond ego trip and I'm surprised that the normally sensible Nicola Sturgeon has >> followed his views. >> They have become trapped by events and their own rhetoric. They never actually wanted independence, just to kick up a lot fuss, get more concessions, and of course get re-elected. Now their worst wishes may be about to be granted, confirming the wisdom of the old adage. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 18:43   Scottish independence - Robin O'Reliant

Were I Scots I'd be very worried about having a stand alone currency and how we were going to fund our pensions, health service and welfare provisions. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 19:05   Scottish independence - ToMoCo

how >> we were going to fund our pensions, health service and welfare provisions. >> And you think this is all hunky dory as the UK? Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 20 May 14 19:25   Scottish independence - Robin O'Reliant

>> And you think this is all hunky dory as the UK? >> That's the point, it's far from hunky dory in a country with a population of 60 million. Go down to five and it becomes a real problem. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 19:02   Scottish independence - ToMoCo

>> and have now been converted to the idea that if the silly Scots want >> to go off in poverty, then they should feel free to. They really hate the >> English, don't they! >> Hate the English? Of course not. We just don't suffer pompous little plicks gladly ;) Silly Scots indeed, pah! Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 19:13   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>>We just don't suffer pompous little plicks gladly ;) You've not had as much practice as us. ;-) Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 20 May 14 19:17   Scottish independence - ToMoCo

> >> You've not had as much practice as us. ;-) >> :-D Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 20:55   Scottish independence - Lygonos

The Scottish economy is, per head, more productive than rUK. At the regional level Scotland is behind only London and the SE of England. With the so-called 'geographical share of oil revenues' it is only behind London. Jocks die a year or two before the English so if anything are subsidising English pensions. The economic argument is not a disaster, neither is the population being 5 million much of an issue. Mismanagement after a "Yes" vote, however, would be more risky than with a larger country especially when/if the next Darien/Celtic Tiger booms and then busts. UK is still running a £300m per DAY deficit, so you can take your economic posturing and cram it up your pipes. I still can't see a Yes vote winning but I do notice the bookies now have it at ~2-to-1 rather than 4-to-1 that it was in January. And finally, when it comes to whining have a good look in the mirror England - not exactly full of optimism and flowers in the hair, are you? Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 20 May 14 21:02   Scottish independence - sooty123

>> And finally, when it comes to whining have a good look in the mirror England >> - not exactly full of optimism and flowers in the hair, are you? >> Perhaps not and maybe we'd win the silver medal, but you lot would be runaway gold medal winners ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 21:12   Scottish independence - Lygonos

Back in the pre-PC '70s we had a cat called 'Sooty' His brother was 'Darky'. Can't quite imagine shouting their names nowadays! Anyhoos, continue the whining below. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 21:33   Scottish independence - sooty123

There we go, that was almost a joke wasn't it? ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 21:36   Scottish independence - NortonES2

Can one still obtain the delicious black bun, or is that now off-piste? Only know it because of Scots friends. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 21:42   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>There we go, that was almost a joke wasn't it? No point looking at this forum - the funniest joke is in your pants. (or they get deleted for abusing the swear filter...) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 21:48   Scottish independence - sooty123

Getting warmer, you'll crack a funny one I'm sure. ;-) Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 20 May 14 at 21:49 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 22:53   Scottish independence - Stuartli

Something for the Scots to ponder: wingsoverscotland.com/the-barnett-future/ Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 23:35   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>>(or they get deleted for abusing the swear filter...) I was quite upset we lost your last one, one of the funniest I've read in a good long while. I shared it widely. (Claimed it as my own though, of course). Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 May 14 23:45   Scottish independence - rtj70

Going for independence is up to those living in Scotland. So not just the Scottish. I think it will be a poor decision for Scotland medium to longer term. And like it or not, we might all benefit from being a bit closer to Europe. But if they do decide to go for independence.... I think the rest of us will be better off financially. I am sure there will be many contracts for work when businesses relocate to England because of the currency problem. Good for us in IT - plenty of financial type businesses will no doubt relocate. Win win I suppose. Better if they stay but the remainder of the UK will benefit if they decide to go independent and create a new currency and a new central bank. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 10:25   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> Going for independence is up to those living in Scotland. >> A YES vote would not of course bring immediate independence. It would simply be an indication that at that particular time the majority of qualifying Scottish residents wanted independence. To take effect it would still presumably require legislation in both the Scottish and UK parliaments, and an inevitably drawn out state of uncertainty while the details were being negotiated. A change of government in either country, or a backbench revolt, might throw a spanner in either process. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 09:04   Scottish independence - madf

>> The Scottish economy is, per head, more productive than rUK. >> >> At the regional level Scotland is behind only London and the SE of England. >> >> With the so-called 'geographical share of oil revenues' it is only behind London. >> >> Jocks die a year or two before the English so if anything are subsidising English >> pensions. >> >> The economic argument is not a disaster, neither is the population being 5 million much >> of an issue. >> So let's abolish ALL subsidies to Scotland then. Job done.. ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 10:07   Scottish independence - Mapmaker

The main reason for independence seemed to be "We hate the Tory government in London, we can have our own Socialist utopia if we become independent." As the corollary is that we English will no longer have any risk of a Labour majority in Westminster without Scotland's Labour MPs, it is a very attractive proposition. As the Shetland and Orkney Islanders would want to leave Scotland and couldn't realistically be stopped given the precedent of Scotland leaving the UK, the Scots wouldn't have much oil anyway. And in any case, it doesn't belong to the State, it belongs to private companies, and anyway, it's running out. Scottish Financial Services would all move to England - what's left of them, given they're already worried about potential independence and have moved the centre of operations to London anyway. You're not going to put your ISA with Aberdeen Asset Management, are you? So I can only see upside for the rest of the UK - Belfast would *love* the nuclear sub base and its 20,000 jobs. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 10:33   Scottish independence - Haywain

"So I can only see upside for the rest of the UK" I guess this is why 'the powers that be' didn't want to risk putting the vote to England as well! Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 21 May 14 10:43   Scottish independence - Alanovich

Well at least the Scots have genuinely got something they may or may not wish to be independent from. Unlike UKIP fanboys. At least their (the Scots) alleged "whining" can be be seen to have real, substantive merit in regards to claims of not being independent currently. In the event of a UK wide referendum on EU membership going against them, do we hope the UKIP "whining" will cease and they will go away? Whining is whining, if we're calling the Scots whiners, let's have the same standards applied. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 15:28   Scottish independence - BobbyG

Lygonos puts the arguments for independence more succinctly than me but I think its fair to say the argument that is being put forward for "Better Together" is basically a mixture of all the stuff that has been written on this thread. People in England that all think the world revolves around them. Threats that every employer and company will want to leave an independent Scotland. Mmm, are there really no other countries in the world that have employment, businesses, manufacturing other than England? Do England not currently trade with other countries? Do businesses not often relocate due to tax breaks? This is 2014, geographical barriers don't come into it the way they used to , neither do differing currencies. Yes, there are still lots of arguments to be had on the whole economics and whether it would work but the more we hear from Better Together, David Cameron and all these twonks that are as far removed from Scottish folk, then the more the feeling is sod it, let's take a chance, it can't be any worse than what we have just now. I myself am still undecided, I had rather hoped by now that there would have been a lot more facts put on the table rather than just spin from both sides. I admire Salmond as a politician but don't like him as a person. But it takes a certain type of arrogance to become a politician in the first place so he is certainly not unique. Would I prefer a Scottish parliament filled as it is just now with Scottish based MSPs or a Parliament based in London filled with what they have, not to mention the ridiculous cost of the House of Lords where old farts are paid to turn up and sleep in the chambers? Give me the Scottish one anytime. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 15:34   Scottish independence - Alanovich

>> it can't be any worse than what >> we have just now. Watch out for that one biting you on the harris. But it is, of course, up to you to decide. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 15:46   Scottish independence - Armel Coussine

>> I had rather hoped by now that there would have been a lot more facts put on the table rather than just spin from both sides. Well exactly. The same is true of the so-called 'debate' on Europe. In the end people vote (or don't vote) from the gut, with or without rationalizations of variable quality. It's what I do anyway. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 15:58   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> I had rather hoped by now that there would have >> been a lot more facts put on the table rather than just spin from both >> sides. There can't be, all the facts are up for negotiation and quantification if the decision is YES. This isn't the actual decision-making moment, it's simply an expression of interest in pursuing the matter further, subject to agreement. It's like making an offer for a house. You haggle over the carpets and garden ornaments later. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 16:27   Scottish independence - rtj70

I think I'd like to know what the plans are for a currency. That's obviously important. I guess it will be a Scottish 'pound' or similar. It's not going to be the Euro and not likely to be the British pound either. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 17:35   Scottish independence - Mapmaker

>>This is 2014, geographical barriers don't come into it the way they used to , neither do differing currencies. 1. HM Government is not going to have its nuclear submarines in a foreign country. 2. Royal Bank of Scotland and friends are backed by the Bank of England, so we're happy to deposit our cash there. Remember Icesave? RBS will be like an Icelandic bank, backed by the tiny Bank of Scotland (or whatever it will be called). It just won't be an attractive proposition for a UK saver, and it won't be attractive to the Scots - the 2008 bailout of RBS amounted to over 200% of Scottish GDP; Scotland cannot afford to have RBS as the risk is too great. 3. Along with many other people, I shall no longer be taking my holidays in Scotland and I shall not be drinking Scotch Whisky and I shall not be eating Scottish-made haggis, smoked salmon or shortbread. Just on a matter of principle, sorry. 4. London is full of émigré Scots who used to work in financial services in Edinburgh, but aren't risking it any longer. I don't know why I'm coming up with reasons why you should stick with us; I'm now in the Better Apart category. I'm just bemused that any Scot might think it a good idea. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 21 May 14 17:59   Scottish independence - madf

I don't know why I'm coming up with reasons why you should stick with us; I'm now in the Better Apart category. I'm just bemused that any Scot might think it a good idea. The Scots have been adopting a breeding and emigration program designed to ensure the brightest leave Scotland and never return.. (See Sean Connery: he loves Scotland so much he has returned from self exile and is paying UK taxes ... err...) So the Scots who are left are a bit short of the intelligence quota :-) Last edited by: madf on Wed 21 May 14 at 18:00 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 19:39   Scottish independence - BobbyG

1. HM Government is not going to have its nuclear submarines in a foreign country. Why not? Its not as if they are ever going to actually be used is it? And if they do it won't matter a jot to you, me or anybody else. 2. Royal Bank of Scotland and friends are backed by the Bank of England, so we're happy to deposit our cash there. Remember Icesave? RBS will be like an Icelandic bank, backed by the tiny Bank of Scotland (or whatever it will be called). It just won't be an attractive proposition for a UK saver, and it won't be attractive to the Scots - the 2008 bailout of RBS amounted to over 200% of Scottish GDP; Scotland cannot afford to have RBS as the risk is too great. Fair point 3. Along with many other people, I shall no longer be taking my holidays in Scotland and I shall not be drinking Scotch Whisky and I shall not be eating Scottish-made haggis, smoked salmon or shortbread. Just on a matter of principle, sorry. Very narrow minded but each to their own. 4. London is full of émigré Scots who used to work in financial services in Edinburgh, but aren't risking it any longer. Really? I don't know why I'm coming up with reasons why you should stick with us; I'm now in the Better Apart category. I'm just bemused that any Scot might think it a good idea. you nailed it - "stick with us" , who is us? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 20:16   Scottish independence - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> Why not? Its not as if they are ever going to actually be used is >> it? And if they do it won't matter a jot to you, me or anybody >> else. >> >> We've got nuclear submarines on the assumption that they may need to be used at some point in the future, otherwise we wouldn't have them at all. Nobody can predict the future or what threats may unfold. And there are areas of the UK crying out for the jobs having a submarine base would bring, NI in particular. You don't seriously think any UK government would leave them in the hands of the SNP, do you? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 20:28   Scottish independence - Bromptonaut

> And there are areas of the UK crying out for the jobs having a submarine >> base would bring, NI in particular. You don't seriously think any UK government would leave >> them in the hands of the SNP, do you? No but there's an awful lot of money, experience and operational convenience tied up in the Faslane/Gareloch area. After a Yes vote in the referendum an awful lot of stuff will need sorting out. I doubt that, whatever is said before the vote, some sort of Sovereign Base, on the Cyprus etc principle, would be beyond either side's pale. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 20:42   Scottish independence - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> No but there's an awful lot of money, experience and operational convenience tied up in >> the Faslane/Gareloch area. >> >> With presumably well paid jobs going with it a lot of that expertise would happily relocate to where ever the action is. In any case it would not take very long to replicate it elsewhere. And it would be very tempting for a UK government to want to rub the Scot's noses in it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 20:48   Scottish independence - Bromptonaut

>> With presumably well paid jobs going with it a lot of that expertise would happily >> relocate to where ever the action is. In any case it would not take very >> long to replicate it elsewhere. Have you ever tried to replicate the experience of the unwilling at another site? Take it from me, it's costly and prone to get very messy. And if we really need a nuclear deterrent then we won't be chancing it's effectiveness to rum McNoses in some sh*ite or other. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 22:15   Scottish independence - Westpig

>> And if we really need a nuclear deterrent then we won't be chancing it's effectiveness >> to rum McNoses in some sh*ite or other. >> There's plenty of room in Plymouth and I should imagine Portsmouth is the same. It would take a while for the skills to be sorted out.. but it's not insurmountable. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 20:42   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> >> >> We've got nuclear submarines on the assumption that they may need to be used at >> some point in the future, They go out on patrol and take part in exercises don't they? How else would they move but by using their nuclear propulsion? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 20:53   Scottish independence - madf

The SNP have unequivocally stated "no nukes in Scotland"..tinyurl.com/m5xk4bz Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 22 May 14 08:27   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> The SNP have unequivocally stated "no nukes in Scotland"..tinyurl.com/m5xk4bz >> If the UK retain sovereign bases, they wouldn't be in Scotland, any more than Guantanamo naval base is in Cuba. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 22 May 14 10:01   Scottish independence - Manatee

It's simple. If Scotland votes for independence, the UK can hand over the territory excluding the areas with the bases on them :) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 22 May 14 11:20   Scottish independence - Mapmaker

>>4. London is full of émigré Scots who used to work in financial services in Edinburgh, but >>aren't risking it any longer. > Really? Loads. I'm friends with a fair number: 'I can't risk being unemployed in an independent Scotland'. And every month brings more of their Edinburgh friends to work in London. To work for offices such as this one: www.fundweb.co.uk/news-and-analysis/uk/alliance-trust-registers-new-companies-in-scottish-independence-preparation/2007914.article And like getting toothpaste back into a tube... these offices are now in London and aren't going to be shut down, are they? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 18:00   Scottish independence - Manatee

>> the more we hear from Better Together, David Cameron and >> all these twonks that are as far removed from Scottish folk, then the more the >> feeling is sod it, let's take a chance, it can't be any worse than what >> we have just now. The best advice I ever had, from a good friend about 20 years ago, was to make decisions with my head. I do agree though that that Cameron and a few others would do their own campaign more good by keeping quiet. Hard case to sell actually, the Union - nothing exciting about something that has existed for so long. Probably why they resort to the fear factor, that comes across like threats. Makes you want to poke them in the eye I should think. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 May 14 19:37   Scottish independence - Armel Coussine

>> The best advice I ever had, from a good friend about 20 years ago, was to make decisions with my head. Stands to reason - literally - but it isn't what I do where voting is concerned. The gut comes first every time. Right too from the head POV more often than not. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 02:03   Scottish independence - rtj70

So if I lived in Scotland and had a mortgage. Which is almost certainly in £'s now. If they go independent then: - Depending on currency might it cost me a lot more in terms of debt - probably? It won't be £'s or €'s will it? - Might interest rates go up - but who knows what a central Scottish bank will charge - If you're after a remortgage or similar in Scotland... will there be a perceived risk over independence? - Could I lose my house? Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 23 May 14 at 02:04 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 03:10   Scottish independence - Lygonos

Yeah 'cos that's wot happened when the European nations moved to the Euro. (ps if you did have a home in Scotland you'd almost certainly have a smaller mortgage as house prices are a bit lower than SE Engerland) Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 23 May 14 at 03:14 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 09:43   Scottish independence - Mapmaker

>>Yeah 'cos that's wot happened when the European nations moved to the Euro. Moving to the Euro made the situation more secure as you were moving to a bigger economic mass. Here the Scots are leaving Sterling and going it alone. Brave (heart). I take it, Lygonos, that you are in the Better Apart camp? How secure is your NHS pension in the new Scotland? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 15:41   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>> I take it, Lygonos, that you are in the Better Apart camp? To be honest I don't know - I think I am a fence sitter at the moment, but I've seen no evidence that Holyrood has been run any worse than Westminster, and I am unconvinced I want to be paying for HS2 any more than I expect the English enjoyed paying for the £400m Scottish Parliament building. As for security of pension, if there was a seperation then I expect liabilities and assets will be divided up more or less evenly according to populations/geography/history. All I know for sure is that my NHS pension has been made a hell of a lot worse by the current coalition who pushed through a change of retirement age from 60 to 68, and contributions have increased from around 20% of my income (employee & employer contributions which I am responsible for as being self-employed) to about 27% at the same time. I doubt Fat 'Eck can make that much worse. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 23 May 14 17:46   Scottish independence - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> All I know for sure is that my NHS pension has been made a hell >> of a lot worse by the current coalition who pushed through a change of retirement >> age from 60 to 68, and contributions have increased from around 20% of my income >> (employee & employer contributions which I am responsible for as being self-employed) to about 27% >> at the same time. >> >> As someone whose household has lost somewhere around 40k because Mrs O'Reliants pension age has gone from 60 to sixty six and a bit, I do feel a bit aggrieved. But what else could they do? We're living longer and longer and staying fit enough to work for a greater length of time with a much reduced proportion of young to old so the present system is unsustainable. The issue should have been addressed at least three decades ago and retirement age could have been pushed up a bit at a time rather than in one big lump like it is now. Ditto your contributions. If you think an independent Scotland can find some magic way of continuing to fund the present system, please explain it to me. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 23 May 14 17:56   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>If you think an independent Scotland can find some magic way of continuing to fund the present system, please explain it to me. Of course it can't but equally this issue of "Oooo how will Scotland fund your pension" is patent nonsense as it currently pays it as part of the UK. In addition, as I've mentioned earlier, we die younger and thus should get a pension uplift as we have less time to spend it ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 19:33   Scottish independence - Manatee

Is it still defined benefit, Lygonos? In which case the Jocks will be subsidising the English currently. The money purchase annuity rates are influenced by postcode. Pal of mine says he is going to move to Darwen or somewhere thereabouts before he applies for an annuity! The house will be about a quarter of the price of the one he sells in Hertfordshire and he'll have a better pension. I think he means it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 20:37   Scottish independence - Bromptonaut

>> The money purchase annuity rates are influenced by postcode. Pal of mine says he is >> going to move to Darwen or somewhere thereabouts before he applies for an annuity! The >> house will be about a quarter of the price of the one he sells in >> Hertfordshire and he'll have a better pension. I think he means it. I did a client home visit somewhere near Darwen in late nineties. Lovely bungalow with outbuildings - probably a former small works site - overlooking valleys and hills. IIRC it cost little more than my detached eggbox in a dormitory village for Northampton. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:24   Scottish independence - Duncan

>> In which case the Jocks will be subsidising the >> English currently. Why haven't we, poor English got a nickname? There are the Jocks, the Paddys and the Taffs, but we haven't got a name? It's not fair. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:25   Scottish independence - BobbyG

Sassenachs Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 23 May 14 23:27   Scottish independence - Duncan

A Sassenach is a Lowland Scot. I AM surprised. I thought you would have known that. (The Jocks that fought AGAINST Bonny Prince Charlie) Last edited by: Duncan on Fri 23 May 14 at 23:28 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:37   Scottish independence - Bromptonaut

>> A Sassenach is a Lowland Scot. >> >> I AM surprised. >> >> I thought you would have known that. (The Jocks that fought AGAINST Bonny Prince Charlie) Gaelic for 'Southerner' I think, not necessarily just the lowlands. As for the Bonny Prince I never cease to be amused by the misuse of 'Over the Sea to Skye'. He was being taken EAST from Uist to Skye in order to escape to France and exile. The phrase has nothing to do with crossing the bridge or ferry from the Mainland to Skye. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 23 May 14 at 23:38 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 May 14 09:54   Scottish independence - R.P.

"Saeson" in certain quarters around here - usually preceded by an Anglo Saxon word. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 May 14 10:04   Scottish independence - Duncan

>> "Saeson" in certain quarters around here - usually preceded by an Anglo Saxon word. >> It's the Welsh plural of "Sais". English or Englishman. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 11:51   Scottish independence - BobbyG

>>So if I lived in Scotland and had a mortgage. Which is almost certainly in £'s now. If they go independent then: - Depending on currency might it cost me a lot more in terms of debt - probably? It won't be £'s or €'s will it? - Might interest rates go up - but who knows what a central Scottish bank will charge - If you're after a remortgage or similar in Scotland... will there be a perceived risk over independence? - Could I lose my house? With all due respect rtj, that is the sort of arguments that Better Together are putting up and the answer to each one is it might not. Might be cheaper and why would you lose your house? I can get the argument that the currency is an issue still to be resolved but to then use that as an argument to claim everything will be dearer and you could end up losing your bricks and mortar? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 17:14   Scottish independence - rtj70

I think we know the currency won't be the GBP or Euro. But try telling that to Alex Salmond who won't offer up what his plan B is. So I was wondering about mortgages and homes was because: - If the mortgage is currently in pounds and it's with a UK based bank which stays in the U then your debt is in £s. - If a new currency is created and a conversion rate is setup then as long as it stays in parity with the £ you'll be okay. - But if the new currency were to weaken against the £, then the salary paid in the new currency will be worth less but the mortgage still needs paying in £s... Hence could there be a risk if the mortgage was fairly large. Of course, all hypothetical. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 21:18   Scottish independence - BobbyG

I don't know re the currency what it will be. Just now the arguments are it won't be either rof them to scare us. However if Indie gets voted in then there will be a period whereby there will need to be a lot of coming and going and that could include the current UK parliament deciding that it makes life easier if we keep the pound. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 21:40   Scottish independence - madf

tinyurl.com/p4cruck Gives an analysis of possible consequences of Scots independence.. Quote This would be set against an Independent Scotland that had just defaulted on its debts and so would only be allowed to borrow against the mortgaging of its assets that the SNP crows so loudly about such as Scotland's £1.5 trillion of North Sea oil reserves whilst conveniently forgetting that it would probably cost near £1 trillion to extract it! So Scotland would forward sell decades of future oil revenues to foreigners in exchange for the financing of current deficits (voter bribes). Rather than admit to reality, Alex Salmond and the SNP inhabit a fantasy land where post debt default they expect Scottish interest rates to be lower than the UK whilst the example of Ireland which DID take on its fair share of UK debt and which was GUARANTEED by the UK government, nevertheless saw far higher interest rates than the UK right upto the point a decade after Independence Ireland defaulted on its debts owed to to the UK which saw interest rates soar. To which Britain responded by imposing trade tariffs to recoup the monies defaulted upon just as the UK would do today should Scotland default on its debts that resulted in an Irish economic depression, something that Ireland would not fully recover from for over half a century and which contributed towards half its population fleeing the Island. And soon as there was a glimmer of hope for Ireland along came the Euro-zone debt crisis and PIIGS bankruptcy resulting in Ireland effectively being managed from Germany that included a partial bailed from the UK. So Ireland effectively gave up being a significant partner in the UK to become a pin prick in the Euro-zone, all for the sake of religion. And what of Scottish banks? A financial sector that would be twice the size relative to the Scottish economy than were that of Iceland, Cyprus or Greece! Would anyone keep a single penny in a Scottish bank if they knew that it was impossible for Scotland to ever make good on bank deposit guarantees? That during a financial crisis their bank deposits would be stolen Cyprus style. Whilst England (UK) economy would be boosted by Britains deficit effectively being cut by at least £8 billion per year (14 Feb 2014 - SNP Independent Scotland Sterling Sharing Trojan Horse to Plunder British Pound ) as a consequence of England no longer having to bribe Scotland to stay in the Union with a net subsidy of £8 billion per year which therefore in terms of the deficit forecast would result in an additional reduction of the deficit by £40 billion over the next 5 years. This translates into the impact of Scotland's £120billion debt default effectively being cleared within 15 years, so there would be no lasting damage to the UK in terms of taking on the extra debt burden. Not only that but the markets would discount the future, they would be discounting the continuing positive impact if a reduced budget deficit and thus better fiscal outlook for the UK for many decades to come which would translate into lower long-term UK interest rates. UK ECONOMY As mentioned earlier the loss of Scotland's 8% of GDP annual economic output would result in the national debt burden rising to 85%. However, as also mentioned that savings of £8 billion of year in subsidy would clear the extra debt within 15 years. However, actual GDP loss could be recouped far sooner as my forecast is for the UK to grow by over 3% per annum over the coming years., therefore the loss of 8% of GDP could be recouped within 3 years. In economic terms it would be as though Scotland had never been part of the UK. 30 Dec 2013 - UK House Prices Forecast 2014 to 2018, The Debt Fuelled Election Boom Therefore in terms of my economic growth conclusion, I expect the UK economy to at least attain a growth rate of 3.6% for 2014 and target 3.8% for Q1 2015 with a strong possibility of achieving the holy grail for election victories of announcing during the election campaign of 2015 that the UK economy at that time was growing at 4% per annum. Furthermore post election I expect that an over heating UK economy to slow as it dips back towards 3% over subsequent quarters of 2015. Therefore in terms of economy and financial stability the UK would actually be far BETTER off without Scotland. UK POPULATION The SNP tend to be quick to state that many Scots have achieved great things, without mentioning the fact that the great achievements tended to have been made OUTSIDE of Scotland. Many commentators suggest that the loss of population of 5 million would greatly diminish the UK in international terms, with suggestions for instance that the UK could lose its seat on the UN Security Council. 09 Jan 2014 - U.K. House Prices vs Supply, Immigration, Population Growth and Demographics Crisis However, again as my earlier in depth analysis illustrates that the population growth rate for England is such that the loss of population could be recovered within 10 years, so that the total UK population would at least be where it was before Scottish Independence, and likely much earlier as several hundreds of thousands of British citizens (both Scots and English) north of the border would choose to migrate to a far more economically stable UK. Of course most of the people in England do not want further high immigration so the loss of population is less of a domestic issue than it would be North of the border that would experience an accelerated brain drain as its brightest and best migrate to the South of England that would be following the migration of Scotland's financial services industry, as financial sectors are built on only one thing - confidence, something a newly Independent debt defaulting Scotland would be greatly lacking. Therefore Scottish independence would have very limited negative effect on the UK's economy and global standing, which is suggestive of it being an overall economic non event for the UK. UKRAINE 2014, BRITAIN 2016? The real problem of Scottish Independence is as I have highlighted several times in recent articles is that it would open up a pandora's box that would encourage other parts of the UK to start their own separatist movements which would disrupt economic activity right across the UK, and that is the real danger of Scotland leaving the UK, and not its net economic impact on the UK. Ukraine illustrates what tends to happen when countries start to tear themselves apart as peaceful demonstrations in Ukraine's capital city Kiev of barely a few weeks ago have fast descended into chaos towards outright civil war as several regions in the north-west such as Lviv declare independence, whilst the south-east stands behind its democratically elected President who fled the capital with loyal security forces barely 24 hours ago. What was unimaginable a few weeks ago has now become a crisis situation of mounting deaths, where with each death Ukraine takes a further step towards leaping over the edge of and into the abyss of where the likes of Syria stands today, as the consequence of what happens when nations rip themselves apart. Ukraine tearing itself apart has huge implications for european stability as the conflict risks sparking unrest in bordering states most of which have their own separatist movements, especially Russia which therefore looks set to intervene militarily. Independant Scotland Debt Flash Point Alex Salmond's debt default threat statements are akin to someone borrowing money from the bank to build a house and then declaring that they did not owe the bank anything, by rights the bank could repossess the property, and similarly the UK could impose tariffs (just as took place following Irish Independence) or seize Scottish assets on paper to the tune of £120 billion, effectively freezing the assets and thus restricting their use and resale. Of course such an action would be seen as outrageous by the Scottish people and flame the fires of conflict as it would sow much discontent between Scots and the 1/2 million settled English in Scotland, just as does the SNP's statements of not taking on the £120 billion of debt to people south of the border. This is just one example of how the SNP and Independant Scotland would sow the seeds of conflict between North and South Britain. The Balkanisation of Britain Alex Salmond and his merry band of scottish nationalists quest for dominance over a small part of the Island of Britain have failed to calculate that they will no longer have Westminister to blame for this, that, or other latest socialist deficit spending induced crisis. Which implies that the first port of call for disintegration will likely be in Scotland itself, as a vote for Independence at best would only marginally carry more than 50% of the votes. Therefore the Scottish nationalist government would within a couple of years start to hear highly vocal demands from parts of Scotland to rejoin the United Kingdom, the refusal of which could trigger the start of civil conflict, which as we have seen in Ukraine and elsewhere that it does not take much for crisis to spiral out of control. As for the rest of the UK, unfortunately Scotland attempting to tear itself away from the United Kingdom would set in motion a chain of events that would destabilise the whole Island of Britain as many separatist movements would be emboldened to exaggerate their own sense of injustice mostly based on semi-mythical histories and as remedy seek their own autonomous or even independent states, such as Wales, Cornwall, Mercia and off course heavily subsidised Northern Ireland. Scottish independence would result in increasingly chaos across the Island, as growing civil unrest would spread as a contagion infecting many other regions of Britain. The first consequences of the start of UK fragmentation would be in the economic arena as regions would seek to exert greater autonomy and thus increasingly implement differing rules and regulations that would disrupt economic activity that would further accelerate the breakup of the Union as regions would continuously become poorer thus blame others for their circumstances and see further separation as the solution. The European Union fears this which is why senior EU politicians have been lining up one after another to state that contrary to SNP propaganda, an Independant Scotland would not be fast tracked into the EU, for they understand that just as a disintegrating Ukraine would destabilise the whole eastern european region so would a disintegrating UK destabilise many western EU nations such as Spain, France, Belgium and Italy all of whom have their own separatists movements. It would be difficult, if not impossible, for Scotland to join the European Union - European commission president José Manuel Barroso The bottom line is that Scottish Independence would open a Pandora's box that would result in a state of Britain that is far removed from the rose tinted glasses picture that the likes of the SNP are painting today, because the UK has always been MORE than the SUM of its parts. Therefore a fragmented UK will be far LESS in EVERY respects than that which the UK is today. Last edited by: madf on Fri 23 May 14 at 21:42 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 22:10   Scottish independence - Lygonos

Nice non-partisan analysis. AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 23 May 14 22:20   Scottish independence - Lygonos

"It would be difficult, if not impossible, for Scotland to join the European Union" - European commission president José Manuel Barroso This stands out as a real gem. 7 of the 28 member states of the EU have become independent countries in the last 25 years. etc etc etc What you see on both sides of this campaign are typical politics: people flogging their own agendas due to their own vested interests. Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 23 May 14 at 22:22 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 22:23   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Is anybody going to vote in this referendum according to any "fact" from either side? I rather think not. It will be a vote driven by emotion, I should think. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 22:26   Scottish independence - rtj70

>> This stands out as a real gem. >> 7 of the 28 member states of the EU have become independent countries in the last 25 years. Indeed, like the Baltics... but they become independent and then apply to be part of the EU. Takes time. Scotland would probably join if they wanted to but that could take many years. And then with the EU having a say in how Scotland is run.... why did they opt to be independent from the UK. The united Europe will over time have more of an impact on an independent Scotland (and the remainder of the UK). Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 23 May 14 22:35   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>And then with the EU having a say in how Scotland is run.... why did they opt to be independent from the UK. Europe is largely a non-issue to voters - indeed there's probably a bigger risk to Scotland being in the EU by England voting for leaving after Cameron's referendum. (If anyone thinks that he won't welch on that should he be elected in 2015) If Scotland did vote for independence I can't see any particular reason for them not to have a Scottish 'poond' should rUK decide to eject them from Sterling. 5 million is plenty population for an independent nation: Norway, Holland, Ireland and Denmark are similarly populated nations. I suppose the biggest question to answer is: "Will Scotland prosper most with Edinburgh or London calling the shots?" - it's not a black and white answer so NoFM2R is right - a lot will come down to gut instinct. I note for all the media speculation UKIP only managed 17% of the English council vote (and will likely do less well in a General Election) so I reckon the UK (including Scotland) isn't as hungry for a separatist agenda as many partisans would suggest. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 23 May 14 22:35   Scottish independence - No FM2R

I have not seen or heard anything which says that Scotland will be economically better off. The most optimistic that I have seen merely says that it will be survivable or "ok". Consequently, I am assuming that a "Yes" vote can only be an emotional vote, and will be regretted by the Scotch if anything goes wrong. Now since there is no chance of *everything* going right, I am guessing that a "Yes" vote will be seen by history as a disaster. On the other hand, I have not seen nor read anything which says that the rest of the UK will suffer other than emotionally. Which given the above will be solved by being able to look smug and say "I told you so". Nothing like someone else's suffering to make you feel better about your own. My personal opinion is that this will prove to be a medium to long term disaster for Scotland which will be a beautiful place for the rich to live in relative isolation with a falling population. Your average worker, on the other hand, is in for a rough old time. What's scotch for "feudalism"? Mind you, it may well have a future as a tax haven. Seriously, it might. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 23 May 14 at 22:35 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 22:39   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>> I have not seen or heard anything which says that Scotland will be economically better off Let me put it this way, Mark: if you became the guy in charge of an independent Scotland, do you think you could increase its prosperity more than if you were the PM of the UK? I'd be a bit disappointed if you thought you couldn't. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 22:43   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Yes, I think I could. Now ask me if I think Scotland will...... Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 22:47   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>Yes, I think I could. Now ask me if I think Scotland will...... And would Westminster do better? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:07   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>>And would Westminster do better? Firstly, that'd come under my heading of "no worse off" rather than any particular gain. Secondly, I wonder.... Has UKIP served some purpose? We hear all too often about appalling politicians etc. etc. etc. However, these are people that we have elected, and who do what they do because they believe that it will keep them elected. They would wander down Downing Street wearing pink tutus with a lampshade on their head if they were 100% sure that it would keep them elected. We don't have a politician problem, we have an electorate problem. It may be that UKIP have precipitated a significant change. If people have started to believe in, or at least want, a more direct correlation between what they want their politician to do and what their politician actually does, then perhaps that change will occur. If that change will occur, then it will occur more quickly, or more profoundly, with a larger electorate. Or at least, an electorate of more active people. And that means the Scottish. I think the Scottish are more likely to achieve what they want by concerted effort within the UK, then they will out of it. And I think the rest of us have more chance that way, as well. On the other hand, if it does separate, then I think a number of things will happen over the medium term; In brief form; young, educated and skilled leave for employment opportunities, others remain and bear entire tax burden. New, progressive businesses either leave or don't start in the first place, traditional industries grow in proportional power and influence. The ruling become an elite and the poverty/rich gulf grows. What little manufacturing is left turns up its toes. All nationalist and independence politicians lose their soapbox and along with the emperor, his clothes, and West Ham's bubbles, they fade and die. Sadly they don't die fast enough for more appropriate people, who may have a plan for Scotland, to take over in time. Infrastructure investment becomes an issue, failing to attract new businesses. Tourism probably grows. Politicians begin to focus on the new power base(s) bringing a return to a two party system with a huge gulf between them. Scotland's traditional Labour voting base is entirely devalued by its growing Tory motivated electorate. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:18   Scottish independence - BobbyG

You were doing well until that last sentence! We have more Pandas than Tories!! Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:39   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Well, perhaps. But nonetheless it will return to a two party system, and the nationalists will have no value. Or at least, no value that they are able to present. Bearing in mind that I said in the medium term, rather than tomorrow. But I'd be prepared to wager a few that I'm fairly close. Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 23 May 14 at 23:40 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 May 14 00:25   Scottish independence - Bromptonaut

>> Well, perhaps. >> >> But nonetheless it will return to a two party system, and the nationalists will have >> no value. Or at least, no value that they are able to present. >> >> Bearing in mind that I said in the medium term, rather than tomorrow. >> >> But I'd be prepared to wager a few that I'm fairly close. How many parties is to some extent a function of the electoral system. FPtP encourage two parties but with sophisticated PR something different might evolve. The current Nationalists would become the National Party with Opposition based on Scots Labour and/or Liberals. Theoretically there'd be a place for a 'free market' Tory/Neo-Con outfit though it might struggle for support outwith Metropolitan Edinburgh. Regional parties in Highlands/Islands miht be part of mix too. PR inevitably means coalitions and there'd be some interesting combinations. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 10:55   Scottish independence - RichardW

>>PR inevitably means coalitions and there'd be some interesting combinations. That is what the Scottish parliament system was supposed to do - except that Labour made (or were seen to have made) such a hash of the economy, and Tories are just nowhere, that SNP managed to get a majority. I don't think even Wee eck thought it was real to start with! Just received the latest propaganda from Yes scotland at the weekend - full of unfunded promises to make us better off. I just hope enough people can a) see though the hype and b) be bothered to go out and vote No if that is their wish, otherwise I can see the SNP getting their way on a majority-minory vote (IYSWIM). Salmond will be insufferable.... Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 May 14 01:21   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>> We have more Pandas than Tories He's not wrong, you know! www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/protesters-tell-pm-pandas-more-popular-than-tories-1-3338998 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 May 14 01:34   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>> and the nationalists will have no value. Or at least, no value that they are able to present The SNP aren't like Scottish UKIP, they have governed Holyrood for the past 2 sessions as minority, and now majority governments. All parties evolve with time, or they die out. The fall in Tory party support is because it has steadfastly refused to have an obvious Scottish identity up here -they need a leader who doesn't appear subordinate to DC. It's not entirely dead: typically polling 15-20% of the votes at election time - their voters are spread out, rather than concentrated in large (sub)urban lumps as in SE England so they rarely manage to create a majority in local FPTP polls. Even in Maggie's heyday there were typically 5-6 Scots Tory MPs Usually once a party is in power, of whichever flavour, it moves towards the opposition or the opposition move towards the governing party to try to maintain/increase their popular share. Labour aren't going to win the next election by shifting to the left: like Blair in 97 they need to move towards the Tories but I'm not convinced Milibland will pull that off. Last thing I want to see, however, is Ed Balls back in the Treasury. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 May 14 01:39   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>> Ed Balls back in the Treasury. Amen to that. In fact, Ed Balls back anywhere he can cock something up. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:44   Scottish independence - Lygonos

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland There's some reading for you. I get the impression many English think we are some hillbilly nation. Or worse: a slightly retarded North of England. Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 23 May 14 at 23:45 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:48   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Other than specific figures, I don't think that told me anything I didn't know. However, I still maintain that the results will be closer to what I expect rather than what the politicians are touting. It won't be a disaster tomorrow, but I don't think independence will take it anywhere that most of the people voting for it want. Or Expect. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:49   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>>a slightly retarded North of England ? You're a Doctor. Surely you don't believe that would amount to a viable life form? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:52   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>You're a Doctor. Surely you don't believe that would amount to a viable life form? True dat. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 23:51   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>It won't be a disaster tomorrow, but I don't think independence will take it anywhere that most of the people voting for it want. Or Expect. I expect it will economically be much as it is currently. If I had 5% more income or 5% less income I doubt I'd feel much of a difference. Which is the biggest pull for me to a 'No' vote: What's the point if it turns out to be little different to how it is now. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 22:30   Scottish independence - sooty123

>> >> >> What you see on both sides of this campaign are typical politics: people flogging their >> own agendas due to their own vested interests. >> >> >> Very much so yes, there are countries against scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU. I'm thinking of Spain, last thing they want is an example to the independance movements inside Spain. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 22:46   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>> Scottish independence would result in increasingly chaos across the Island, as growing civil unrest would spread as a contagion infecting many other regions of Britain. Now maybe I don't know England that well, but I do know Geordies, Yorkshiremen, Lancastrians and Scousers, as well as guys from the South, and depite their regional differences they all see themselves as English, and proudly so. Other than Wales and NI (which is more British than most of mainland Britain but suffers gross sectarianism) this statement is also utter guff IMO. I have no idea if there is any strength in the Welsh independence movement. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 May 14 10:50   Scottish independence - Robin O'Reliant

>> I have no idea if there is any strength in the Welsh independence movement. >> >> None at all in this part of Wales. In fact there seems to be a growing feeling that the devolved regional assembly in Cardiff is an expensive waste of time. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 May 14 22:23   Scottish independence - rtj70

>> Just now the arguments are it won't be either rof them to scare us. Well we know it can't be the Euro because Scotland wouldn't be part of the EU. That's a given. And so they would have to apply to be part of the EU first. A separate currency therefore needed for a period. And no guarantee of acceptance into the EU I guess. And if the UK says an independent Scotland cannot have the pound, isn't that final. Might be to scare people but if that's the decision then so be it. There would need to be fiscal ties to make it work and the independence of Scotland surely rules that out because the rest of the UK would have some say over fiscal policy. I'm not against Scottish independence - it's up to the population of Scotland, which will include many nationalities with a vote. Best of luck to everyone if you do all opt to try out independence. I'm just not convinced it is best for Scotland. I think the rest of the UK will be largely unaffected. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 09:12   Scottish independence - Alanovich

>> Well we know it can't be the Euro because Scotland wouldn't be part of the >> EU. That's a given. No, it isn't. When Montenegro seceded from Serbia, it adopted the Euro as its currency. It was not then, and still is not today, in the EU. In theory, Scotland could do the same. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 11:34   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> >> When Montenegro seceded from Serbia, it adopted the Euro as its currency. >> It was not then, and still is not today, in the EU. In theory, Scotland >> could do the same. >> From the EU Commission website: "Kosovo and Montenegro, in the Balkans, use the euro as a de facto domestic currency, as they have no agreements with the EU" But that means the currency has no legal status in that country, and that they cannot mint their own coins or print banknotes? Would that be appropriate for Scotland, a world financial centre and oil exporter? :) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 11:41   Scottish independence - Alanovich

I was merely pointing out the error of the statement from rtj that a country can not adopt the Euro if they are not in the EU, when clearly they can. Whether or not that's an appropriate path for any given country is another question. In theory, an independent Scotland could. Even from outside the EU. Last edited by: Alanović on Tue 27 May 14 at 11:42 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 11:43   Scottish independence - commerdriver

>> Scotland, a world financial centre and oil exporter? :) >> I wouldn't count on Scotland as a financial centre after independence in quite the same way, I can't see much of the banking based finance staying based in Scotland. As an exiled Scot I think Scotland in the medium long term would at least survive as an independent nation but I think there is a lot of pain in the short term if the vote is Yes, just my personal opinion. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 15:05   Scottish independence - BobbyG

From what I am reading up here, the rise of the UKIP down south has played into the Indie hands. Will be interesting to see how this spins out. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 15:10   Scottish independence - Dog

For what it's worth Mr BoobyG Sir, I would vote yes, if I was a Scot, without any qualms. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 15:20   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>>I would vote yes, if I was a Scot, Goodness me, Arjades, if you were a Scot, *I'd* vote yes! Now I'm going to put a smiley which under internet law that means you're not allowed to be offended. 8-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 16:17   Scottish independence - Dog

>> Goodness me, Arjades, if you were a Scot, *I'd* vote yes! =>LOL<= Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 15:20   Scottish independence - Mapmaker

Bobby wrote>>I don't know re the currency what it will be. Just now the arguments are it >> won't be either rof them to scare us. I couldn't imagine anything scarier. How do you sleep at night, not knowing the answer? Increasingly I think Britain would be better off without the Scots, but it's not my choice... Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 27 May 14 at 15:20 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 15:26   Scottish independence - BobbyG

em... close my eyes... Got a helluva lot more to worry me and interest me in my life than what the currency will be. I don't care in what format my overdraft is! Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 16:38   Scottish independence - madf

>> em... close my eyes... >> >> Got a helluva lot more to worry me and interest me in my life than >> what the currency will be. >> >> I don't care in what format my overdraft is! >> You would worry if the result was that your repayments doubled. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 18:56   Scottish independence - Lygonos

Exactly the empty argument that's fuelling the 'Yes' campaign up here. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 19:58   Scottish independence - Haywain

"Exactly the empty argument that's fuelling the 'Yes' campaign up here." Oh - isn't that what it's subtly designed to do? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 20:04   Scottish independence - Lygonos

The cynic in me certainly thinks that. Why on Earth would David Cameron want to retain 50 or 60 non-Tory seats in Westminster? Other than the oil revenue and productive economy ;-) I expect a couple of weeks before the referendum, the Con/Lab/LibDem groups will miraculously get together then put forward a joint "DevoMAX" offer to pull back some of the borderline Yes-men. At the moment they all suggest an extension of devolution in then event of a 'No' vote but nothing tangible has been put forward. Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 27 May 14 at 20:08 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 20:11   Scottish independence - Haywain

"Why on Earth would David Cameron want to retain 50 or 60 non-Tory seats in Westminster?" Maybe, like me, he has an appreciation of Celtic music ;-) …….. and the bagpipes ………… but only at funerals when there's snow on the ground (guaranteed to reduce me to jelly). Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 27 May 14 20:15   Scottish independence - Lygonos

Bagpipes get a bad rap... at point-blank range, wielded by a skilled bag-masher they certainly make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up too. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 07:29   Scottish independence - madf

>> Exactly the empty argument that's fuelling the 'Yes' campaign up here. >> Hmm I understand the Scots don't understand economics.. and the above is the proof:-) BTW the Scottish "productive economy" is based on oil, the financial sector and farming. And the odd military base.. The financial sector depends on UK bank guarantees and farming on EU subsidies.... Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 08:35   Scottish independence - ToMoCo

Both the Nationalists and Unionists are due to release a White Paper today on the economic situation. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27595415 John Swinney (Cabinet Secretary for Finance) on the radio this morning arguing figures released by the UK government are 'deeply flawed' ( www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-could-cost-1-5bn-1-3422559 ), but failing to put a figure on it himself. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 14:17   Scottish independence - madf

If Swinney will not quote his own figures: either the sums have not been done.. which sounds unlikely given they are key. or they are greater than £1.5bn.. which sounds more likely... Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 14:29   Scottish independence - Robin O'Reliant

I'd like to see a yes vote, just for the hell of sitting back and seeing what happens. If I lived in Jockland I'd vote no because I'd fear what might happen. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 16:23   Scottish independence - Mapmaker

>>The cynic in me certainly thinks that. >>Why on Earth would David Cameron want to retain 50 or 60 non-Tory seats in Westminster? >>Other than the oil revenue and productive economy ;-) LOL. As a Unionist, he believes in the Union. Scotland is a net liability to the UK, from a financial perspective we'd be much better off without you. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 18:11   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>Scotland is a net liability to the UK, from a financial perspective we'd be much better off without you. No, from a financial perspective Scotland would be better off without every part of the UK except London and SE England. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 18:13   Scottish independence - Westpig

>> No, from a financial perspective Scotland would be better off without every part of the >> UK except London and SE England. >> Trouble is, there isn't a separate country of 'London and the South East' Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 18:14   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>>No, from a financial perspective Scotland would be better off without every part of the UK except London and SE England. So, are you saying that independence will make Scotland worse off then? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 18:24   Scottish independence - Lygonos

NoFM2R - I think financially it'll probably make little difference: any improvement through higher GDP will probably get sucked up by a loss of 'economies of scale.' My concern would be the squandering of economic strength by parties trying to out-socialism each other.. which may rise to a resurgence of Tory vote (apparently Scotland's biggest party until the mid-1950s) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 10:32   Scottish independence - DP

>> I'd like to see a yes vote, just for the hell of sitting back and >> seeing what happens. I've kind of got to this point as well. The contradictory claims coming from the opposing campaigns have long since reached the point of ridiculousness. One or both are either incompetent or outright liars given their public statements on the likely outcomes of the same situations completely contradict each other. They can't both be right. The only issue I have any real interest in is the currency question. Salmond has claimed he as the right to continue using the Pound in the event of a yes vote. That's like saying I have the right to continue using the rowing machine in my gym if I cancel my membership. Ridiculous and baseless. Whether Scotland can use the Pound post-independence is not, and never will be Salmond's decision, but he blusters on like he has a say. Wouldn't inspire confidence for me as a voter, but thankfully I am just an observer in this one. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 13:59   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>Salmond has claimed he as the right to continue using the Pound in the event of a yes vote. That's like saying I have the right to continue using the rowing machine in my gym if I cancel my membership. Ridiculous and baseless. Not actually true - there's nothing stopping any country using any other country's currency - it just doesn't make a lot of sense to tie in to that other country's fiscal policy. I would expect a formal fiscal union (despite the rhetoric) would be likely, but if an independent Scotland existed I'd rather it had its own currency as its prosperity partially relies on being able to be more flexible than larger economies. Not a deal breaker, but being used as a surrogate for financial security by both sides: No: "You'll lose the pound" (and by implication your savings/wealth) Yes: "We'll keep the pound" (and by implication financial security) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:33   Scottish independence - rtj70

If Scotland is going to be independent, I think having their own currency is the way to go. Keeping the pound means the rest of the UK has some impact on the Scottish economy. Not that it would happen, but what would Scotland do if we adopted the Euro? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 18:33   Scottish independence - ....

>> Both the Nationalists and Unionists are due to release a White Paper today on the >> economic situation. >> >> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27595415 >> How will the average household be better off whichever way it goes ? If it's a "No" vote suddenly every household will gain £1400 how does that work? Would it not remain as it is today unless some incentive is thrown in? The £2.7billion restructuring cost might not be so far wide of the mark when you consider the initial estimate for the parliament building was between £10m and £40m - not much difference ahem and the final £414m estimate 3 years behind schedule. Then you have Edinburgh tram 2003 estimate £375m, construction began in June 2008, May 2008 the estimate was revised to £521m. Once interest payments are factored in the final estimate tops £1bn. I'm not saying Westminster is any better...however history always repeats itself. Wee 'Eck must be rubbing his hands. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 18:38   Scottish independence - Lygonos

Edinburgh Trams were a decision by Edinburgh council which Holyrood said they would foot £500m towards the cost - the laughable display of shocking governance thereafter reminds me of Labour's new Holyrood which was meant to cost £40m and ended up £400m. See also MoD acquisitions and so forth. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 18:15   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>BTW the Scottish "productive economy" is based on oil, the financial sector and farming And whisky, and tourism, and electronics, and fishing, and textiles, and engineering, and bus making, and exporting energy surpluses to rUK, etc etc Start with facts, not noise thanks. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 18:48   Scottish independence - madf

"The close trade links between Scotland and the rest of the UK are clear: • In 2011 Scotland sold goods and services to the rest of the UK worth £45.5 billion, double the levels exported to the rest of the world and four times as much as to the rest of the European Union (EU); • Between 2002 and 2011, the value of Scottish trade with the rest of the UK increased by 62 per cent, compared with a 1 per cent increase in value of exports to the rest of the EU combined;3 • Demand from the rest of the UK for Scottish-produced goods and services resulted in sales to the rest of the UK representing 29 per cent of Scottish GDP in 2011.4 The financial services and insurance sector, for example, sold nearly half (47 per cent) of its output to the rest of the UK in 2009;5 and • Exports to Scotland represent 3.5 per cent of the rest of the UK’s GDP. " tinyurl.com/p5bb82k All we need is the Scots to vote Yes and be bolshy, the English to decide not to buy Scottsih goods and the Scottish economy will collapse. Period . No debate. And the way Salmond operates, I could see it happening.. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 18:54   Scottish independence - Haywain

"the English to decide not to buy Scottsih goods and the Scottish economy will collapse." Can I just, at this point, mention that a very nice whisky is being produced here in East Anglia by The English Whisky Co ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 19:15   Scottish independence - Lygonos

Listened to a report on Radio 4 about a handful of distilleries popping up in Cumbria - nice water so I imagine they can make a decent dram. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 19:18   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>All we need is the Scots to vote Yes and be bolshy, the English to decide not to buy Scottsih goods and the Scottish economy will collapse. Considering we don't currently do that for Chinese stuff, it seems a tad unlikely. Your point is valid though: in the same was as London only prospers because of the rest of the country, Scotland needs to trade with rUK. Trade barriers won't improve prosperity. Maybe we need Federalised Europe to maximise the benefit of 'big government'. /stir Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 19:44   Scottish independence - Meldrew

I see that DC says Scots will be £1000 per head better if they vote NO and AS says they will be £1300 if they vote YES. Do they snatch these figures out of the air or are they based on flawed "facts"? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 20:03   Scottish independence - Lygonos

I think it was £1400 for a NO and £1000 for a YES if I heard Eddie Mair on R4 correctly earlier. They spoke to a Prof whose earlier study was being bandied about, and his take was that Danny Alexander has misrepresented the findings. Would you believe a politician of any flavour when it comes to financial planning?? I sure as heck wouldn't. Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 28 May 14 at 20:04 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 20:09   Scottish independence - Meldrew

Apologies - I was speaking from a memory of figures kicked around yesterday! I was in the ballpark re the difference at least! Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 20:16   Scottish independence - Lygonos

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27608272 A reasonably dispassionate assessment of the claims. Basically neither aye or nay but suggests that Scotland currently being a net contributor to the UK would potentially be balanced out (at least initially) by the 'start-up' costs of a new state. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 20:27   Scottish independence - BobbyG

You also have to remember that not all people only care about "how much better off / worse off they are". There are a lot of other factors to be taken into consideration rather than just the cash in your pocket. The £1000 better /worse off won't mean a jot to someone living on benefits and having to visit their local foodbank to survive. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 20:55   Scottish independence - Haywain

How can they be '£1000 better off' than now, if they vote no? Is Mr Cameron going to give each Scot a cheque for £1000? Last edited by: Haywain on Wed 28 May 14 at 20:56 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 21:07   Scottish independence - rtj70

>> How can they be '£1000 better off' than now, if they vote no? Is Mr >> Cameron going to give each Scot a cheque for £1000? >> I think it's a way of saying they'd be £1400 worse of if they vote yes. i.e. voting no means they keep the £1400 they have now. >> Start with facts, not noise thanks. Indeed Lygonos. But some good points about losing farming subsidies for example. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 21:30   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>But some good points about losing farming subsidies for example. I'm not an agronomist (I think that's the word) but I suspect EU farming subsidies basically enable farms to remain quaint family affairs (particularly in France) and reduce the benefit from having very large farms as exist in other parts of the globe. Those subsidies are ultimately paid for by the EU nations - whether Scotland receive more than it's share of UK subscriptions, I don't know. Remember if Scotland was outside the EU it also wouldn't be paying for it. Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 28 May 14 at 21:33 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 28 May 14 22:07   Scottish independence - Haywain

"Remember if Scotland was outside the EU it also wouldn't be paying for it." By leaving the UK, the canny devils would be killing two birds with one stone. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 07:34   Scottish independence - madf

Most small farmers depend on subsidies to survive - particularly sheep farmers in mountainous areas. So EU subsidies might have to be replaced by local ones... (there are LOTS of other examples - see Liverpool regeneration - lots of EU money.) (which is why arguments about leaving the EU and saving all EU contributions are flawed- and basically deliberate lies as it's so simple and obvious. Otherwise if the UK left, Welsh sheep farming would collapse). I read the BBC quotes from the economists. Since they do not state the basis of Scottish debt falling(Do they include the BailOut of RBS in their numbers? It's a real biggie.. If not, then RBS WILL have to re HQ to England. It's impossible to make any conclusion without the detailed assumptions... And since they are all economists, in Universities and in Scotland, their views are hardly impartial. Last edited by: madf on Thu 29 May 14 at 07:35 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 08:29   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> Otherwise if the UK left, >> Welsh sheep farming would collapse). It managed to survive for hundreds of years before the EU was invented. Presumably it could revert to whatever system was in place before we joined? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 08:34   Scottish independence - Bromptonaut

>> It managed to survive for hundreds of years before the EU was invented. Presumably it >> could revert to whatever system was in place before we joined? That system relied in a market for the wool and/or meat of hardy hill sheep. The problem of that market disappearing was under way pre EU and is not likely to return unless people start buying rough wool cloth and eating mutton. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 08:39   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

More specifically I meant pre-1973. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 08:45   Scottish independence - Bromptonaut

>> More specifically I meant pre-1973. >> By then I suspect subsidy from the Ministry of Agriculture was under way. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 08:48   Scottish independence - CGNorwich

Overgrazing of upland areas by sheep in Wales and elsewhere is causing major environmental damage and subsidising the activity, from an environmental point of view, is clearly not helpful. These issues are never straightforward. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 29 May 14 12:10   Scottish independence - madf

>> Overgrazing of upland areas by sheep in Wales and elsewhere is causing major environmental damage >> and subsidising the activity, from an environmental point of view, is clearly not helpful. >> >> These issues are never straightforward. >> And cows are one of the biggest producers of methane - another greenhouse gas. Lets stop eat meat, drinking milk and become vegans... That will solve the environmental issues except for the cemeteries needed for those who die in the transfer (willingly or by disease or starvation). Job done... (I will emigrate) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 13:06   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> >> Lets stop eat meat, drinking milk and become vegans... That will solve the environmental issues What would our 60 million people eat? Where would it be grown? Who would grow it? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 13:09   Scottish independence - Alanovich

>> What would our 60 million people eat? Kippers. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 13:17   Scottish independence - Meldrew

Not enough herrings! Have you seen the price of a decent kipper these days? Not the dyed Boil-in-the-bag things but a real smoked full size herring! Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 13:39   Scottish independence - Alanovich

I didn't mean the fishy kind. Actually, though.............. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 13:50   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

I like pickled herrings. Hard to find good ones here sadly. Over indulgence in them gives you worms though, according to a Danish colleague, who may be misinformed of course. But he is possibly better placed to have an opinion on the matter. Being in Denmark. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:03   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>Over indulgence in them gives you worms though, according to a Danish colleague, who may be misinformed of course I imagine that comes from the same book of Old Wives' Tales as peeing yourself after picking dandelions. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:07   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

That a Danish thing too? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:08   Scottish independence - No FM2R

>>as peeing yourself after picking dandelions. Goodness me, I thought I was the only child tormented by that belief. I didn't realise it was so widespread. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:10   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

I thought you were Welsh? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:12   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Do you mean we're immune from peeing ourselves? Because my experience would suggest otherwise. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:20   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Lygonos seems to think its a Danish thing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:21   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Oh, maybe its all the bacon I ate. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:22   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Did that give you worms? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:29   Scottish independence - Armel Coussine

When we were children we used to eat fingerfuls of the raw mixture when our mother was making a fruit cake. She used to claim that it would give us worms. It's important to rinse things like rice and lentils thoroughly to remove wildlife. One lot of couscous we got a year or two back had nasty little larvae in it. Buying grains loose and in bulk seems a good idea and is usually cheaper, but there's something to be said for buying branded: the stuff is usually clean. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:34   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

A friend who lives in rural Somerset ( well you know what they're like there ) used to buy muesli in sacks which they kept under a table in their Shaker style kitchen in their stone built cottage ( you know the sort, loads of money but old cars sort of types ) Only when they got near to the end of one did it become apparent that the sack also contained a mouse's nest. He did say the raisins were a bit soft in that batch. Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Thu 29 May 14 at 14:34 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:32   Scottish independence - No FM2R

I think you'll find they're called "Orm". Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:38   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Herrings? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:40   Scottish independence - No FM2R

No, not sildene, orm. Forsøge at holde op. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 29 May 14 at 14:41 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:41   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Thought it was dandelions we were on about? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:44   Scottish independence - No FM2R

I thought it was kippers, worms, peeing yourself and Lara Croft. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 29 May 14 at 14:45 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:45   Scottish independence - CGNorwich

Have you seen the price of a decent kipper these days? About £3.20 for a pair in Waitrose. Have them for breakfast most Sundays. That's not expensive surely. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:47   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

I like a kipper with a cold tomato and brown bread. Give me terrible wind though. Kippers. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:49   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Why cold? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:50   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Hot kipper, cold tomato. Sort of yin yang thing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:53   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Oh. Doesn't sound very Danish, though. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:54   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

That's herrings. Pickled ones. Give you worms you know. Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Thu 29 May 14 at 14:56 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:57   Scottish independence - No FM2R

I thought you said you got worms from dandelions. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:55   Scottish independence - CGNorwich

"Lets stop eat meat, drinking milk and become vegans... That will solve the environmental issues except for the cemeteries needed for those who die in the transfer (willingly or by disease or starvation). " Although the prospect of becoming a vegan would be daunting to say the least I am quite happy to eat meals that contain no meat or fish three or four time a week. I really enjoy meat but over the years have become increasingly selective as to what I am prepared to eat. A decent vegetarian curry trumps a plate of sausages of dubious provenance any day of the week Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:57   Scottish independence - Alanovich

I was vegan for two years, once. Piece of cake. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 22:00   Scottish independence - Kevin

>I was vegan for two years, once. Mrs K persuaded me to give up eating meat during the BSE scare and I had no problem with that, I could even resist the smell of bacon. She then decided that we should go one step further and cut out as much fat as possible. The side effects were quite dramatic. Permanently horny, I'm sure that my body was telling me "You're dying, you need to procreate NOW!" Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 22:06   Scottish independence - ....

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vegetarian www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Vegan Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:57   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Ever eaten dandelions? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:58   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Apparently worms are very nice with a cold tomato and toast. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 14:59   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Brown bread would be better. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:00   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Pretty much all the toast I've ever seen has been brown. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:03   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Brown toast just seems wrong. Toast should be white. Bread should conversely be brown. Which is admittedly awkward. Danes eat Pumpernickel with their pickled herrings which is a fairly happy marriage. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:11   Scottish independence - No FM2R

I think not. I believe they eat herrings with rugbrød. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:13   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Tasted like pumpernickel. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 16:35   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Wasn't though. Probably you'll wet the bed now. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 16:52   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Been back a week so probably out of the danger zone. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:05   Scottish independence - CGNorwich

A warning as to the dangers of eating earthworms when your anti depressants don't work: "One year before presentation, suffering from work and love problems, our patient had begun to complain of fatigue accompanied by wordlessness, low mood, occasional vomiting and anorexia. Subsequently, he had been diagnosed with depression disorder and had received antidepression therapy in his native hospital several times, but to little effect. The twist: He picked up these nasty tagalongs by ingesting live earthworms and geckos at the behest of a "witch woman." He picked up multiple parasites from these ingested animals. He went to the witch because the antidepressants weren't working. He turned to a native witch and ingested living earthworms and geckos for 10 days at her suggestion. The doctors, led by Tao Yu of Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hospital in China, treated him with anti-parasite medications. These parasites actually come from the soil on the animals, not the animals themselves, the paper said." www.businessinsider.com/pro-tip-dont-eat-live-geckos-or-earthworms-2012-8 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:06   Scottish independence - Ambo

.******* I am a pescatarian. I don't eat the flesh of animals although dairy produce is fine. I eat fish as eagerly as a cat. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:09   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

>> I am a pescatarian How old is that then? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:21   Scottish independence - Ambo

Same age as veterinarian, vegetarian, valetudinarian, sectarian, parliamentarian, disciplinarian etc. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:26   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Valetudinarianism sickens me. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 16:39   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Actually I think you'll find its the emetophobia doing that. As long as I'm not aggravating your allodoxaphobia. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 29 May 14 at 16:42 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 16:58   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

I can't believe you mean that. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 17:12   Scottish independence - No FM2R

Actually pumpernickel is known for bringing on attacks of alethephobia. Not wetting the bed is a well known symptom. Ask Lygonos. I hear he's danish. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 29 May 14 at 17:13 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 17:19   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

He would know more about herrings if he was. Not convinced. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 17:28   Scottish independence - No FM2R

He doesn't need to know about them, he has a herring aide to do that for him. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:18   Scottish independence - Ambo

>> imagine that comes from the same book of Old Wives' Tales as peeing yourself after picking dandelions. Or from France, where they name them something like that. The censor wouldn't let me give the actual name above but it is more like "pee- in- the- bed". Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:50   Scottish independence - neiltoo

In fact, dandelions are a mild diuretic, and consequently could make you pee in bed.... science.blurtit.com/12462/do-dandelions-make-you-wet-the-bed 8o) Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 15:56   Scottish independence - madf

To join the EU, Scotland has (HAS) to have a Central Bank.. If it uses sterling and has no currency of its own and no control of the amount of pounds sterling issued and interest rates effectively set by the rest of the UK, its Central Bankers will have time to twiddle their thumbs as they will have nothing else to do. So when times call for increased interest rates due to - say - a housing boom - taxes will have to rise instead... unless the rest of the UK decides to raise interest rates. See what effect someone setting interest rates for a big country has on a small country eg : Greece, Spain. but of course a well run small country eg Holland, much of Scandinavia... with carefully run fiscal policy have prospered. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 16:11   Scottish independence - madf

Poll tracker www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27585557 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 16:19   Scottish independence - Lygonos

>>So when times call for increased interest rates due to - say - a housing boom Care to show me an example of the UK govt (or BoE) increasing interest rates in direct response to house price rises? Thought not. I would suspect managing house price inflation would be more successful by playing with Stamp Duty, similar to how a modest rise in car tax destroyed the market for cars over 225g/km. Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 29 May 14 at 16:21 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 17:58   Scottish independence - Mapmaker

>>I like pickled herrings. Hard to find good ones here sadly. Lidl or Aldi. Or the nearest Polish shop, of course. .******* Edit for silly swear filter: French for dandelion is a word that refers to its nocturnal diuretic effect. Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 29 May 14 at 18:00 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 18:10   Scottish independence - Runfer D'Hills

Good call Mapmaker. I'll send Cook. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 19:17   Scottish independence - ....

>> I'm not an agronomist (I think that's the word) but I suspect EU farming subsidies >> basically enable farms to remain quaint family affairs (particularly in France) and reduce the benefit >> from having very large farms as exist in other parts of the globe. >> The problem is a lot of these farms now are not owned by the farmers but leased from the landowners who now know what the subsidy from the EU is and, would you credit it, the annual rent somehow matches the subsidy almost to pound. Well I never !!! Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 29 May 14 21:53   Scottish independence - ....

Just to add to the above, the supermarkets are also aware what the subsidies are so the farmer gets squeezed from both sides. I appreciate no one normally feels for the farmer, me included, but when you read the two newspaper articles you kind of think food production in the UK is cream crackered: tinyurl.com/bf8awcr tinyurl.com/nkkz4hc Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 30 May 14 11:41   Scottish independence - madf

>> Just to add to the above, the supermarkets are also aware what the subsidies are >> so the farmer gets squeezed from both sides. >> I appreciate no one normally feels for the farmer, me included, but when you read >> the two newspaper articles you kind of think food production in the UK is cream >> crackered: >> >> tinyurl.com/bf8awcr >> >> tinyurl.com/nkkz4hc >> Th average age of a UK farmer is around 59. Things will change. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 1 Jun 14 16:43   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> Th average age of a UK farmer is around 59. >> >> Things will change. >> Yes, next year he will be 60. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Sun 8 Jun 14 12:28   Scottish independence - BobbyG

She latest nonsense in the press today is that independence could harm the search for a cure for cancer: www.express.co.uk/news/uk/480964/UK-split-from-Scotland-to-set-back-cure-for-cancer So are Cancer Research only interested in getting a cure if its in a UK? So in an independent Scotland they would shut all their shops and not do any more Race For lifes etc? Utter nonsense but this is what we voters are faced with on a daily basis, one person's opinion getting blasted across the paper, the next couple of days that opinion will be rubbished and then it will be gone forever, until the next one. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 8 Jun 14 12:44   Scottish independence - madf

I am sorry but anyone expecting logic and sense from the Express has set their sights too high.. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 17 Jun 14 19:50   Scottish independence - Robin O'Reliant

It appears the only people who couldn't care less are the rest of the UK - www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10907088/China-signals-opposition-to-Scottish-independence.html Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 17 Jun 14 20:22   Scottish independence - Lygonos

It seems that DC is asking all of his allies to back the 'No' campaign - I wouldn't be surprised if Iran give an opinion in due course! Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jun 14 00:14   Scottish independence - DP

One thing the Scots and the English have in common is a dislike of being told what to do or think. The more people who say we shouldn't do something, the more likely people are to do it out of spite. Let people make up their own minds. Who really gives a rats what the Americans or Chinese think? Last edited by: DP on Wed 18 Jun 14 at 00:15 Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 18 Jun 14 08:04   Scottish independence - Meldrew

If the vote is YES it will be interesting to see the timescale and who foots the bill for moving everything nuclear from Faslane to say, Devonport. It doesn't matter what USA, China and others think but they have commercial interests which might be affected by the result, so there are interested parties outside UK. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jun 14 08:18   Scottish independence - Westpig

>> If the vote is YES it will be interesting to see the timescale and who >> foots the bill for moving everything nuclear from Faslane to say, Devonport. If they do come to Devonport, they won't be using this bit: tinyurl.com/nt3nn49 It's been turned into restaurants and there's flats and a hotel being built. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jun 14 15:35   Scottish independence - Meldrew

Somewhere Naval, on the South Coast, and with an accessible nuclear weapons storage area near by will do the biz, or start to. 10 year project, minimum, from the day of the vote, if it is Yes. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 18 Jun 14 08:02   Scottish independence - Cliff Pope

>> >> /China-signals-opposition-to-Scottish-independence.html >> Well, they would, wouldn't they? Would they like us to signal support for Tibetan independence? Reply to this message | Report message