Non-motoring > UKIP Debate - Volume 11   [Read only]	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: VxFan	Replies: 100

New Mon 19 May 14 10:15   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - VxFan

***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 12 ***** As above.* * this site does not endorse any political party in any shape or form. Any posts/links deemed offensive by moderators will be removed Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 21 May 14 at 19:13

New Mon 19 May 14 09:29   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - FocalPoint

Here's another UKIP candidate it's hard to take seriously: Gordon Ferguson, running for Cambridge ward in Southport, Lancashire. 'Mr Ferguson wrote: “The Lib-Lab-Cons have conspired with a foreign power, the EU, and are all thereby guilty of treason. They have sold Britain, which is the fifth largest economy, illegally into increasing slavery inside the EU dictatorship. Those responsible should be hung by the neck until dead.” 'He went on: “As likely as not, however, they will never be brought to account because our senior police, Crown Prosecution Service and judges are almost all exclusively freemasons, and Britain’s courts have been utterly corrupt for many years. They are almost all in the pocket of the EU."' (As reported in The Telegraph: tinyurl.com/lajgn63) Apparently Farage is complaining UKIP is getting a tougher media scrutiny than his rivals. I would say the media is compensating for a slow start. He says they are concentrating on the idiots in UKIP. What does he expect? Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 10:17

New Mon 19 May 14 09:37   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

I have to laugh at the freemasons comment. I know of several masons in UKIP and I have no doubt there are far more than those one is aware of. #notworried Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 10:17

New Mon 19 May 14 11:33   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Alanovich

So what's all this rain and flooding in Serbia and Bosnia about then? I mean, a few months ago a UKIP Councillor in Henley-on-Thames (WDH) was saying that the rain and flooding in Britain were God's punishment for Gay Marriage. Well, there's no Gay marriage in Serbia, nor in Bosnia, so what have they done to deserve it? We need to be told what UKIP's position is on this matter. They seem to have the hotline to God.

New Mon 19 May 14 11:42   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Dog

God was probably aiming at "uncivilised" Romania but his satnav was playing up again. :o}

New Mon 19 May 14 12:14   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

Nigel Farage on LBC last Friday. Perhaps this is old news, but I only just saw it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pyYoL9ngtE

New Mon 19 May 14 14:08   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

>>We need to be told what UKIP's position is on this matter. They seem to have the hotline to God.<< Of course he was elected as a Conservative so perhaps you should ask them why they selected him, his views were known while he was in that party. As I understand it from the papers, Cameron has the hotline these days, all I get are PPI claims calls.

New Mon 19 May 14 14:10   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>> his views were known while he was in that party. UKIP knew what they were getting into then? And yet still wanted him?       2

New Mon 19 May 14 14:28   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Roger.

The level of invective and hate thrown UKIP's way over the last few months can, actually, get quite wearing. It does not necessarily deter members, but it can make for short fuses after a while! I am not sure that I would be calm and unflappable in the face of such relentless attacks - many highly personal. Janice is a prominent campaigner and candidate so I would guess that her exposure to this ignorant rabble-rousing vituperation has been considerable. I think that the British public will understand a moment's lapse of this nature - in fact I would not be surprised if many actually approve!       1

New Mon 19 May 14 14:48   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>> I would not be surprised if many actually approve! I don't approve. I expect better behaviour. I don't want someone dealing with the future of this country who can get wound up by a few people in the street. And since she is press secretary or something like that, then it wouldn't appear that she's very good at that job at least. I'd hope that of all people a press secretary would understand the implications of doing stuff in public. But then I would think any politician should understand that. So I would guess she's not all that bright, either. I don't see this incident as a particular reflection on UKIP, I wouldn't approve of her whatever her political stance. Its the frequency of these aberrations which I see as a reflection on UKIP. Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 19 May 14 at 14:49

New Mon 19 May 14 15:05   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

>>I don't approve. I expect better behaviour. I don't want someone dealing with the future of this country who can get wound up by a few people in the street << You should have been watching the local opposition activists in action in my area recently, they looked and behaved like football hooligans, some of the behaviour was outrageous, I dont know why it is that the Left think intimidation of voters is the key to electoral success. I watched one poor woman being berated by an activist for 10 minutes after she told him she wasnt interested. She, like many others that day then made a beeline for the UKIP stand. Roger is right about the way opposition parties are treating us, it does wear you down, we are only human, subject to the same weaknesses as everyone else, most UKIP activists havent been through a political training camp to make us beige in every way. If you want perfect clones, you have three parties to choose from.       2

New Mon 19 May 14 14:32   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

When someone crosses the floor as he did, they avoid the selection process and as long as they have not been a member of a proscribed group ( the Tory Party isnt on the list ), yes they can join. One assumes of course that the Tories have a working selection process but apparently not in the PMs backyard. There is certainly a case for asking those who defect to sit as independants until the next election though, which would avoid getting an unknown quantity suddenly representing the party.       2

New Mon 19 May 14 14:52   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

www.thecommentator.com/article/4954/mainstream_britain_still_doesn_t_understand_ukip

New Mon 19 May 14 15:23   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

Oh, I think we do. edlnews.co.uk/index.php/rss/1078-ukip-branch-chair-invited-ex-bnp-burn-the-koran-man-to-stand-for-farage-s-party It may not be a racist party, but it certainly seems to attract them. And it would seem even encourages them sometimes. Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 19 May 14 at 15:24

New Mon 19 May 14 17:25   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/which-party-should-you-actually-vote-for Bit of fun if you like a quiz. I got the right answer!

New Mon 19 May 14 17:30   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>> I got the right answer! Me too. You got: Conservatives You believe that the government should leave you alone to get on with your life, while also respecting tradition. You’re probably not much of a fan of the European Union but you believe in the benefits of free trade and hope Brussels can be convinced to give back some power to the UK. You’re still optimistic about Britain’s ability to compete on a global level and are proud of the country’s traditions.

New Mon 19 May 14 17:34   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

Aimed for red but hit green!!

New Mon 19 May 14 18:08   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Pat

I got 'You’ve had enough with the small cabal of career politicians with identikit policies who run this country without listening to ordinary people. And you’ve had enough of being ruled by unelected officials in Brussels. It’s time to take the country back for UKIP and deliver a real message to Westminster. Pat

New Mon 19 May 14 18:10   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

" It’s time to take the country back for UKIP " You'd think it would be time to take the country back for yourself, rather than for UKIP.

New Mon 19 May 14 18:16   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

Narrative with my Green result was: You want a proper left-wing party that isn’t afraid to say what it really believes in. You believe in social justice and equality, and realise there’s more to life than pandering to the needs of big business. Politics should be about doing what’s best for the world as a whole, not just looking for short-term wins. To be honest that's where I'd expect Labour, in the Croslandite mode I first came to it, to be seated. Bu**er Blair and all his works. Bring back Clause IV!!! The People's Flag is Deepest Red etc.....

New Mon 19 May 14 18:12   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Armel Coussine

I'm a bit worried because the parties don't seem to have delivered any bumf to the voters yet. Last Euro I think we got comprehensive bumf. Herself says we have to look it up on line. What a pain. I know one of my votes will go to the LibDems, God protect me, because they have the correct attitude to Europe. I just hope the Labour candidate won't seem too offensive. I seem to remember having to give the tories a vote in one lot of locals for reasons I forget.       1

New Mon 19 May 14 18:39   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Cliff Pope

>> I'm a bit worried because the parties don't seem to have delivered any bumf to >> the voters yet. Last Euro I think we got comprehensive bumf. The main parties don't seem to have cottoned on to postal voting yet. I've just read that 40 % of votes have already been cast by post, mostly before the recent crop of UKIP feet-in-mouths.

New Tue 20 May 14 10:45   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Haywain

"I know one of my votes will go to the LibDems," Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you said, AC, but certainly in the Eastern Region, you only get one vote in the Euro election. Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods?

New Tue 20 May 14 11:16   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Armel Coussine

>> Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods? Guh... I doubt it. Confused with local elections probably... fading memory...

New Mon 19 May 14 18:12   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

>>Aimed for red but hit green!! << Same thing isnt it? :-)

New Mon 19 May 14 18:16   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

>> >>Aimed for red but hit green!! << >> >> Same thing isnt it? :-) Apparently!!

New Mon 19 May 14 19:34   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> Me too. >> >> >> You got: Conservatives Ditto

New Mon 19 May 14 19:55   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - NortonES2

Lib Dem, much to my surprise. Never going to be the UKIP folie a deux. Last edited by: NortonES2 on Mon 19 May 14 at 19:56

New Mon 19 May 14 20:04   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

What a load of old crap is being spoken about Nigel Farage's LBC interview. The more I hear, the more I like him and agree with him. I took his meaning to be 'call it as it is' not hide from the truth. If I thought he meant that a whole country of people were all crooks, then I'd agree he's a racist, no problem. However, If I think he meant that there's a real crime problem within the Romanian community (e.g. Roma gypsies pickpocketing in public places, esp transport systems and/or Romanian criminal gangs of men that fiddle with ATM machines and steal money and/or the aggressive begging car windscreen washers, etc)... and that they need dealing with...and that if a group of young Romanian men living next door up to no good, would be a nightmare.. then I agree with him. As I understand it, UKIP want a system similar to Oz's, whereby we control immigration ..well so do I. I don't mind the Romanian professor, doctor, businessman, nurse, etc coming over and working, fill your boots...I do however mind criminal gangs or those immediately claiming welfare benefits, etc. When living in London, I had a cleaner a young lady from Romania, who in her country was a beauty therapist, but over here did what she could. She introduced me to her then boyfriend, now husband, also Romanian who is a builder..and a damned good one he is too. They became friends of my wife and I, we arranged for them to have a cheap holiday at my father-in-laws hotel as their budget was severely limited and I (against the rules) supported their application (in writing) for their right to stay here (which they got) and they keep in touch. We've offered for them to have a weekend here in Devon (whether they do or not I have no idea, but the offer was genuine). I only mention it, to sadly state the obvious, that you can believe that all peoples across the world, regardless of state, colour, religion, etc are basically decent and no different to you or I really...and it's only the awful that you need to sit on...BUT... you do need sometimes to nevertheless sit up, see what's going on, talk about it and deal with the unpalatable... not pretend it doesn't happen and try to shoot down in flames those that are willing to discuss it and automatically label them as racist. I agree that there are those out there that ARE racist and that they'd mingle in and hide with everyone else... but... as is the case with everything, they are few and far between and should not affect the many who outnumber them significantly. Where I think UKIP has touched a chord with the nation and certainly has with me, is they are willing to stand up and start dialogue in areas we had been 'banned' from going. Long may that continue. Cobblers to the PC brigade, power to the people and all that.       6

New Mon 19 May 14 20:26   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Dog

"Am I the only one that finds LBC radio presenter James O'Brien infuriating. Whilst he has the face for radio he does not have the voice; but worse, I hate the way he patronises callers that are obviously less educated and less articulate than he is. He sounds like a patronising bully and it makes for uncomfortable listening. Unlike Nick Ferarri he has zero charisma" "I absolutely loath him. If he is on the radio, I simply change station" "I too have to turn James off. He loves the sound of his own voice too much, the other callers barely get a word in" "I can't stand James O'Brien. He used to bring his bad mood into the studio with him and take it out on the callers. I remember once that he was speaking to an innocuous elderly lady - about benefits or the cost of health care or something like that - and when she said something like that there was nothing that she could do about what she cost the nation, O'Brien said "You could die". Very coldly and didn't soften the comment with anything else within the call. I felt terrible for the poor old lady, who didn't defend herself against his foul statement. He should have been sacked after that show. O'Brien has admitted that he sometimes brings his bad mood to the show. He seems less inclined to behave like that recently, but I can't stand his smug attitude. He seems to have to constantly reassure himself that he has worth. I struggle to stay on LBC during his show and wish he'd drop his irritating sayings like, "If you build it, they will come". Ugh" All from mumsnet and all only too true.

New Mon 19 May 14 20:53   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

The point is WP that the Roma are NOT part of the Romanian community. They're culturally, racially and in pretty much every other way separate and they're by no means uniquely from Romania. Treated a outcasts and, like our own gypsies, with a culture none of us understand it's no surprise that some of them fetch up living on the margins. The Roma/Romanian conflation has suited the agenda of UKIP and the Mail. I'm surprised you've let yourself fall for it. As to the sponsorship bit well done but reading it again, and in present company I'm on a limb here, I'm detecting just a hint of of the 'some of my best friends' line. Farage walked into an elephant trap and showed his outfit in it's true colours. Shades of 1964 and rhymes about who you want for a neighbour.       1

New Mon 19 May 14 21:12   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>>, and in present company I'm on a limb here, Not with me around, you're not. I'm not [insert type of bigot], some of my best friends are [insert minority]. Farage came across as an ass. Whether or not he is one, that's how he came across. Interesting though how when he comes out well in an interview he's a genius, but when he comes across as an ass its because the interviewer was so bad. He came across as an ass with a very narrow view of the world. He has a German wife and their children are bi-lingual, although their first language is German. Consequently I can't see that he has any issue with being surrounded by foreign languages, any more than I do. So why the comment about being on the train? Because it was shallow,meaningless, tabloid-speak which he thought would impress some of his people. He showed himself as a one-trick pony dressed up as a showman and no more depth than that.       2

New Mon 19 May 14 22:02   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> Not with me around, you're not. I'm not [insert type of bigot], some of my >> best friends are [insert minority]. See my reply to Bromptonaut at 2201

New Mon 19 May 14 22:05   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> Farage came across as an ass. Whether or not he is one, that's how he >> came across. Not to me he didn't, the interviewer sounded the ass. Unusually NF didn't explain himself very well, but I understood what he meant... and I'm fairly sure the interviewer did as well ...only it didn't suit his cause. Last edited by: Westpig on Mon 19 May 14 at 22:05       2

New Mon 19 May 14 21:33   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Armel Coussine

>> As to the sponsorship bit well done but reading it again, and in present company I'm on a limb here, I'm detecting just a hint of of the 'some of my best friends' line. A tiny bit unfair Bromptonaut? I don't see Westpig as a closet racist. He's felt collars of all races and religions over the years. I was going to say he was wrong about UKIP but seemed right about everything else.

New Mon 19 May 14 22:01   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> As to the sponsorship bit well done but reading it again, and in present company >> I'm on a limb here, I'm detecting just a hint of of the 'some of >> my best friends' line. Easy throw away line that one Bromptonaut. They are not my best friends, never were and never will be. They are however nice people, as you'd expect most are. How else do I get my message across? If I don't mention it, you just think I read the papers and suck up all their false protestations and label everyone the same... and yet if I do mention an example, and there are plenty of others, you label that as 'some of my best friends line'. So put simply, it matters not what I say, or prove.... your mind is so pre-set, it won't make any difference, you'll persuade yourself that there's an unpalatable angle. I might have my faults and my wife will confirm that... however, my honesty and integrity have never been questioned. I think you'll find that you are the one with the closed mind.       5

New Mon 19 May 14 22:13   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> The point is WP that the Roma are NOT part of the Romanian community. >> >> They're culturally, racially and in pretty much every other way separate and they're by no >> means uniquely from Romania. Treated a outcasts and, like our own gypsies, with a culture >> none of us understand it's no surprise that some of them fetch up living on >> the margins. The Roma/Romanian conflation has suited the agenda of UKIP and the Mail. I'm >> surprised you've let yourself fall for it. I'll take your word on it.... but so what that I didn't know that? It's an understandable mistake to make and one that no doubt many do. None of us know everything and I certainly don't consider myself an expert on Eastern European people, why would I? My main point though, which you didn't cover, was the criminality of some elements of immigrants.... and the right of the rest of us to discuss it.... and the right of this country not to let them enter.       2

New Mon 19 May 14 22:36   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

>> I'll take your word on it.... but so what that I didn't know that? It's >> an understandable mistake to make and one that no doubt many do. >> None of us know everything and I certainly don't consider myself an expert on Eastern >> European people, why would I? I claim no expertise either but my curiosity was engaged because (a) there was an obvious gap of appearance, dress etc between the people I saw portrayed as (conflated) Roma/Romanian and the odd real Romanian I met and (b) the position of Roma people in Eastern Europe is actually well publicised. >> My main point though, which you didn't cover, was the criminality of some elements of >> immigrants.... and the right of the rest of us to discuss it.... and the right >> of this country not to let them enter. And that's where my jaw tightens. There's criminality and there's immigrants. If some visitors/immigrants come here to commit crime then the law is there to deal with them just like the home grown variety. The idea that we label some immigrants as criminals on basis of their nationality (or judge domestic Muslims by words of Al-Quieda devotees or actions in Sudan or on the Kenya/Somali border) crosses my moral red line big time. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 19 May 14 at 22:38

New Mon 19 May 14 22:56   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> The idea that we label some immigrants as criminals on basis >> of their nationality (or judge domestic Muslims by words of Al-Quieda devotees or actions in >> Sudan or on the Kenya/Somali border) crosses my moral red line big time. ...as it would mine. What relevance is that statement in this discussion? I haven't stated that ...where in any of my posts have I said that, hinted that or agreed with someone else who said that? For the nth time...what I am saying is 'you are welcome here if you are not a crook and not intending to immediately bleed our welfare system dry'. Which of my many posts have you not read properly and digested what I say. I think that all people's across the world are basically decent and it's just the awful that need sitting on... or is it that you don't believe what I post and think I'm hiding a closet angle? I'm not convinced I can say it any more clearly.       4

New Mon 19 May 14 23:16   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

WP You said: If I think he meant that there's a real crime problem within the Romanian community (e.g. Roma gypsies pickpocketing in public places, esp transport systems and/or Romanian criminal gangs of men that fiddle with ATM machines and steal money and/or the aggressive begging car windscreen washers, etc)... and that they need dealing with...and that if a group of young Romanian men living next door up to no good, would be a nightmare.. then I agree with him. That seems pretty close to labelling the the Romanian community as crooks unless proved otherwise. I'd say reference to Muslims treating women like cattle and their referring to 'us' as 'Kaffirs' came in same category. The interface between Islam and other Abrahamic religions is complex and subject to differing interpretations between sects on both sides. The concept of 'People of the Book' is completely different to the unbelievers/Islam dichotomy some would push.

New Tue 20 May 14 09:13   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> If I think he meant that there's a real crime problem within the Romanian community >> (e.g. Roma gypsies pickpocketing in public places, esp transport systems and/or Romanian criminal gangs of >> men that fiddle with ATM machines and steal money and/or the aggressive begging car windscreen >> washers, etc)... and that they need dealing with...and that if a group of young Romanian >> men living next door up to no good, would be a nightmare.. then I agree >> with him. >> >> That seems pretty close to labelling the the Romanian community as crooks unless proved otherwise. You are seeing what you want to see. If someone says ' there's a problem within 'x' community'....that is NOT saying ' all of 'x' community are a problem'. ....and the problem with your approach, is that you'd like to close down any comment on the 'problem within 'x' community'.... which means the issue is never dealt with, when it should... and the rest of us become irritated, because that community's problems are left to fester, when they should be addressed....so on the merry go round goes and actually plays into the hands of those that are racist and divisive. >> I'd say reference to Muslims treating women like cattle and their referring to 'us' as >> 'Kaffirs' came in same category. Same response as above. How many times have I posted that I think the majority (of all peoples) are fine and the minority are not? It cannot surprise you that in 31 years of working in London I worked with and became friends/colleagues of numerous people of the Muslim faith and see them as no different to you, I or anyone esle.... but now of course I'm back down the road of 'I'm not racist I've got friends... etc' (as you see it).

New Mon 19 May 14 19:50   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Dog

Blimey! - I should 'actually' vote Conservatory. Bit late though as we both voted for Dear Leader last week (postal)

New Mon 19 May 14 20:23   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Slidingpillar

Needs a nice graunchy deep fading sound ala Radio Tirana in the late 70s The people's flag is deepest red, It shrouded oft our martyred dead, And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold, Their hearts blood dyed its every fold. Then raise the scarlet standard high (chorus). Within its shade we'll live and die, Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We'll keep the red flag flying here. etc At that time, Radio Tirana was an unimaginable shade of red, several steps to the left of Radio Moscow. They used a huge amount of power and were easily heard in the UK on medium wave from Albania

New Mon 19 May 14 21:29   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

>> At that time, Radio Tirana was an unimaginable shade of red, several steps to the >> left of Radio Moscow. They used a huge amount of power and were easily heard >> in the UK on medium wave from Albania MW frequencies travel well in darkness, hence familiarity of my generation with Horace Batchelor as well as music that he paid for on good old Radio Luxembourg. Radio 5Live is audible way down south in France at night if you can rotate your set to nul out the other users of 693/909.

New Tue 20 May 14 00:51   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

If we take a group which consists of every lazy, criminal, nasty, rotting scumbag who abuses the welfare system, what percentage of that group will be "foreign"? Now, I honestly have no idea, but I bet its a small minority. But I don't hear people saying lets beat up on anybody abusing the system, I hear UKIP banging on about the nasty foreigner abusing the system. I don't care if the group of blokes causing huge issues next door are Romanian or e***** Martian, I care only that they are causing an issue. So I want them dealt with because they are causing an issue, not because they are foreign. I don't want some sodding retailer lying to me. I don't care if what he's lying about is some foreign religion food or East End naffin whelks, I just want him dealt with for lying to me - or at least his business to suffer for doing so. And that would be the difference I see between me and UKIP and its supporters. I do not care what nationality, religion, race or planet people are, I just want our laws followed and my life unbothered. That makes me an unreasonable, intolerant git. But rather that than racist. And it takes more than saying you're not racist, to make you not racist.       2

New Tue 20 May 14 16:49   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> But I don't hear people saying lets beat up on anybody abusing the system, I >> hear UKIP banging on about the nasty foreigner abusing the system. >> >> I don't care if the group of blokes causing huge issues next door are Romanian >> or e***** Martian, I care only that they are causing an issue. So I want >> them dealt with because they are causing an issue, not because they are foreign. I don't want anyone thieving or abusing the system.... and if there was a viable possibility of having British crooks deported, I'd vote for that.... and as we have enough of our own here, I don't want anyone else's crooks let in. >> And it takes more than saying you're not racist, to make you not racist. If you followed the dictionary definition of racist, it would cover most people as it is very wide. If you use a 'reasonable judgement' on the issuing of whether or not someone is racist, that falls down on the subjectiveness of the decision making process... one man's racist isn't another's.       1

New Tue 20 May 14 17:15   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>>one man's racist isn't another's. Yes. It is. Always. >> it would cover most people as it is very wide. Not me. It doesn't matter which dictionary definition you use, it doesn't cover me. Because I am not racist. In my personal experience I have never come across a person who I would not consider a racist insisting that their beliefs are non-racist because of dictionary definitions. The first half dozen or so definitions that came up on a search... 1) The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races: 2) The belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others 3) the belief that some races of people are better than others 4) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or behaviour 5) An irrational bias towards members of a racial background. The bias can be positive (e.g. one race can prefer the company of its own race or even another) or it can be negative (e.g. one race can hate another) 6) Any action, practice, or belief that reflects the racial worldview—the ideology that humans are divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races,” that there is a causal link between inherited physical traits and traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural behavioral features, and that some “races” are innately superior to others.

New Tue 20 May 14 18:10   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

So, to the person under the rock who gave me a frownie; Are you offended by me not being a racist? Are you offended by the definitions of racism? If so, and assuming you have the ability, perhaps you could explain how?

New Tue 20 May 14 18:24   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Manatee

The second one was me, on the spur of the moment. I always own up to them, from which you can infer that the first was somebody else.

New Tue 20 May 14 21:23   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> >>one man's racist isn't another's. >> >> Yes. It is. Always. I think you are wrong. In my case for example, and I accept you'd have to take this at face value because you don't know me... I genuinely have no issue with anyone, purely because of their race... however, I have plenty of issues about some people who are from particular races for various reasons e.g. criminality... and because I am willing to pipe up about it, some people think I'm racist. I however, do not, I see it as a realist. >> >> >> it would cover most people as it is very wide. >> >> Not me. >> >> It doesn't matter which dictionary definition you use, it doesn't cover me. Because I am >> not racist. Fair enough for you ...but there IS a dictionary definition, no.5 below, that is open to interpretation, because if you have a rational bias (as opposed to an irrational one) you are strictly speaking outside of the dictionary definition (which would make you correct), but everyone thinks you'd be within the definition i.e. racist...and I'm saying that's not necessarily accurate. >> >> In my personal experience I have never come across a person who I would not >> consider a racist insisting that their beliefs are non-racist because of dictionary definitions. See above. Do you think I am racist? ...and for the record, I haven't awarded any scowly faces today. Last edited by: Westpig on Tue 20 May 14 at 21:24

New Tue 20 May 14 23:48   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>>Do you think I am racist? No, I do not. And I am sure over a pint we'd quickly understand where each other is coming from, it is quite difficult in writing. However, some of your comments do bother me. If one believes that one can determine behavioural characteristics by race, that at least is a racist view. And i believe it is wholly wrong. Overly simplistically, one could say that all Jamaicans have a certain accent. So if you met a Jamaican then you know what their accent will be. However, that is not true nor accurate. Whereas it would be accurate to say that someone bought up in Jamaica would have a Jamaican accent. One is an assumption based on race (racist AND wrong), the other is an assumption based on environment (not racist and quite likely to be right). Pretty much any comment based upon race is, at least in my mind, wrong and inaccurate. Most of your observations, I would hazard, concern groups of people from a particular environment, *NOT* from a particular race, although obviously a particular environment could consist of people from only one race. Worse, is that someone who is "National Front" could read your comments, and before you know it, then he's passing on to all and sundry [in a thuggish voice] "Yur, I heard this ex-met Copper saying all [insert race] were a thieving bunch of gits" That's a crap explanation, but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at. >> In my personal experience I have never come across a person who I would not >> consider a racist insisting that their beliefs are non-racist because of dictionary >> definitions. Perhaps that could be better worded as; I've never heard a non-racist point of view which required the dictionary definition of "racism" to protect or justify it. Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 20 May 14 at 23:49

New Wed 21 May 14 00:26   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Armel Coussine

FMR's right you know Westpig. I'm sure everyone here understands your position. But a malevolent person might take your comment that large numbers of people from some ethnic groups are criminals to mean that you regard everyone from those groups as criminals. That's the problem with your position as you state it.

New Wed 21 May 14 07:40   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> FMR's right you know Westpig. I'm sure everyone here understands your position. But a malevolent >> person might take your comment that large numbers of people from some ethnic groups are >> criminals to mean that you regard everyone from those groups as criminals. >> >> That's the problem with your position as you state it. Bit of a bummer then if one can't have an informed view on a subject.. in case it allows the bigoted to use it to further their own warped arguments, the ones that you disagree with?       4

New Wed 21 May 14 15:19   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Armel Coussine

>> Bit of a bummer then if one can't have an informed view on a subject.. The problem isn't the informed view Westpig. It's the possibility that the way the view is expressed might be misunderstood by ill-disposed or foolish individuals. This isn't a criticism of you in any way. Denying that one is a racist always puts one in a specious position. I would imagine that as a long-serving police officer your informed view is that anyone at all is a potential criminal. Nevertheless you would make an unconscious assumption as to the probability in each case. No doubt in the event finding out the facts would sometimes have resulted in surprises, both pleasant and unpleasant. :o}

New Wed 21 May 14 11:52   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Manatee

>> FMR's right you know Westpig. I'm sure everyone here understands your position. But a malevolent >> person might take your comment that large numbers of people from some ethnic groups are >> criminals to mean that you regard everyone from those groups as criminals. >> >> That's the problem with your position as you state it. FMR is dancing on the head of a pin. This for example: Overly simplistically, one could say that all Jamaicans have a certain accent. So if you met a Jamaican then you know what their accent will be. However, that is not true nor accurate. Whereas it would be accurate to say that someone bought up in Jamaica would have a Jamaican accent. One is an assumption based on race (racist AND wrong), the other is an assumption based on environment (not racist and quite likely to be right). Pretty much any comment based upon race is, at least in my mind, wrong and inaccurate. Nobody in their right mind, racist or not, would think all Jamaicans have a certain accent. But whichever way you analyse it, you might reasonably imagine a Jamaican, other things being equal, will have a Jamaican accent. We all make judgements at some level based on race, whether we mean to or are aware of it, or not. It's part of a picture. It's complex. You may have an appointment to meet the Jamaican above and say to yourself "it would be wrong to assume he must have a Jamaican accent" but you would guess it to be distinct possibility. The adage "don't judge a book by its cover" should be "when you can only judge a book by its cover, be prepared to change your mind". We all judge books by their covers, all the time, figuratively speaking. Example: www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=17035&v=t No FM2R said that was an unjustified assumption - but he thought it. As I have said before it's how you behave that counts. Accusations of racism are ridiculous as often as not, which is a distraction and unfair to decent people, as there is a lot of the nasty, insidious, life-spoiling kind around too. Contrast "Discussing the ‘Golliwog’ image on Robertson’s jam is “inherently racist” as the term is so offensive, a judge ruled." goo.gl/uoqNKG -Telegraph, Alanovic. (by extension, as that came from the Court of Appeal, the same probably applies to the n word - so those groups who use it amongst themselves had better watch out). with this: Back in about 1982 the office I worked from need a new clerk. The office manager interviewed 3 or 4. I saw the applications. On one he had written "Unsuitable - coloured". There is still plenty of that attitude to deal with even if nobody is stupid enough to write the comment on the file now. (It led to a fairly major argument and a falling out I might add - you wouldn't believe the justification given). Nothing I have seen from Westpig here smells wrong to me. Anybody accusing him of racism should look for the mote (or police stereotype?) in his own eye. On a lighter note... There was a snippet on the wireless yesterday. The reporter was asked by a researcher to give an opinion on four different cups of hot chocolate. She chose her favourite, which she said was much richer and better than the others. It was the one in the red cup, not the blue/yellow/green one, and the same one that most people choose. They were all identical of course.

New Wed 21 May 14 12:06   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

I don't really understand the point of your scree, I;m not sure if you;re saying racism is OK, not OK, doesn't exist or everybody does it. But to pick up on a couple of points; >>you might reasonably imagine a Jamaican, other things being equal, will have a Jamaican accent No, I wouldn't. >>>No FM2R said that was an unjustified assumption - but he thought it. What did I think? I thought that it was perhaps part of a behavioural group. You will have to take my word [or not] that I had not thought of race. Something in your eye, perhaps? >>FMR is dancing on the head of a pin Since you bothered saying it, I am sure its an intended negative, but I don't really get your point. As far as I am concerned what I said is clear; making a behavioural judgement based on race is racist. I think No. 4 was the most succinct. "4) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or behaviour" >>We all make judgements at some level based on race No I don't. >>We all judge books by their covers, all the time No, I don't. Speak for yourself, speak for those around you if you wish, but do not speak for me. And, to be clear, I specifically said I did not think WP was racist. Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 21 May 14 at 12:07

New Wed 21 May 14 14:06   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Armel Coussine

>>We all make judgements at some level based on race >> No I don't. >>We all judge books by their covers, all the time >> No, I don't. Manatee is right FMR: you are dancing on the head of a pin. We may believe you aren't a racist, but your attempts to prove it are not convincing. Goodness what an annoying thread this is. Enough to bring out one's incipient Tourette's in an unbroken stream of bawled racist and sexist epithets. But we must be strong. Think of the children!

New Wed 21 May 14 07:37   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Westpig

>> >>Do you think I am racist? >> >> No, I do not. And I am sure over a pint we'd quickly understand where >> each other is coming from, it is quite difficult in writing. >> >> However, some of your comments do bother me. Hmmm. Heaven's above, we are in agreement. The only bit that I still have a hint of dissent with is I think that my position is very clear: e.g. stating the difficulties that occur in life to do with race, (inc criminality within some races).. but not labelling all within that race as being participants, as that would be clearly incorrect, just those at whatever percentage it is... and me not liking that lack of debate on the subject because many fear being labelled racist for even mentioning it. Maybe my communication isn't as good as it could be, and I am not that clear, even though I think I am.       4

New Wed 21 May 14 10:11   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

>> Heaven's above, we are in agreement. Even I can agree - Man Hug!! >> The only bit that I still have a hint of dissent with is I think >> that my position is very clear: e.g. stating the difficulties that occur in life to >> do with race, (inc criminality within some races).. but not labelling all within that race >> as being participants, as that would be clearly incorrect, just those at whatever percentage it >> is... and me not liking that lack of debate on the subject because many fear >> being labelled racist for even mentioning it. I think the problem is that once you bring the race aspect into description of criminal tendency, whether Roma, Irish Travellers or Black men on the streets, you're at the top of a slippery slope. I don't claim to know the answer from a prevention point of view but (eg) disproportionate stops of black men on street or in cars appears to have been counter productive.

New Wed 21 May 14 11:59   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Manatee

>> I think the problem is that once you bring the race aspect into description of >> criminal tendency, whether Roma, Irish Travellers or Black men on the streets, you're at the >> top of a slippery slope. I don't claim to know the answer from a prevention >> point of view but (eg) disproportionate stops of black men on street or in cars >> appears to have been counter productive. You certainly are. The problem is that the fear of racism, or being accused of it, gets in the way of solving whatever the problem happens to be. FWIW I have no absolutely doubt that many stops were/are racially motivated, and not for anything that could be described as the "right" reason either. The fact that Westpig risks being labelled racist because he thinks this through out loud says more perhaps about the prejudices of the self-appointed thought police than Westpig's attitude, which appears thoughtful to me.

New Wed 21 May 14 01:00   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

>>Do you think I am racist? << One thing I have learnt being in the position that I am is that whether a person is or isnt racist is a question only that person can ask themselves - ask ten different people and you will get ten different answers. There are certain things which 99% of people will agree ARE racist, then there is a vast grey area in which good people tie themselves in knots trying to understand and express how they feel without stumbling into that fog of words, phrases and the second guessing of 'what you really mean' by something. Personally I find the constant discussion of ethnicity disgusting and divisive, it just shouldnt matter in 2014 when there is so much to unite society, it is such a shame some people cant concentrate on that for once but they just never do.

New Wed 21 May 14 08:41   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Haywain

Frankly, I don't like people who stick their caravans anywhere, leave a stinking mess for the council to clear up, nick stuff and generally live as outlaws. Apparently, this makes me a racist.

New Wed 21 May 14 08:56   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

>> Frankly, I don't like people who stick their caravans anywhere, leave a stinking mess for >> the council to clear up, nick stuff and generally live as outlaws. Apparently, this makes >> me a racist. >> If you focus on their race as much as or rather than the rubbish, nicking stuff etc then people might think you were.

New Wed 21 May 14 11:30   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>>Apparently, this makes me a racist. Don't see how. In what you just wrote you decried a behaviour, and didn't link it to a particular race. And being part of a caravan dwelling, dirty, outlaw, thieving bunch of gits is not a race thing, its a behavioural thing. As long as we attack *all* thieving gits, then its not a racist behaviour. If you say that you're going to pursue all lazy, welfare-abusing bunches of lazy, thieving sods, then that again is not racist. If you say you're going after Romanians because they are all lazy, welfare-abusing bunch of lazy, thieving sods, then that is most definitely racist. >>(inc criminality within some races).. Lets say that you believe that most people from the race Zog are thieves. I wasn't born a Zog, I was adopted and raised by them. My mate was born a Zog, but he was adopted and raised in another, deeply honourable, tribe, as a Zag. Who would you like to say was probably going to be the thief? The person born to the race Zog, or the person who grew up with the Zog group? Do you believe that dishonesty comes from being part of a race, or part of a behavioural group? Because we should pursue the behaviour, not the race. Not *any* particular race. And I know we are veering towards profiling, which is pretty dodgy ground, and where a lot of difficulty comes in. That's why it is so important to pursue a behaviour, not a race. Because even in the most damning example ever, profiling doesn't point you at a race. It may point you towards a life style, which may be found predominantly amongst those of a certain race. But it is still the behaviour you are primarily pursuing. It sounds like a small point, almost semantics. But it isn't. As I said a while ago, a non-racist person may, perhaps, voice a racist view. That is going to make him popular with the racists, whether or not he considers himself to be a racist.

New Tue 20 May 14 08:35   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Cliff Pope

>> >> At that time, Radio Tirana was an unimaginable shade of red, several steps to the >> left of Radio Moscow. They used a huge amount of power and were easily heard >> in the UK on medium wave from Albania >> Didn't the Albanians have an extraordinary and eccentric liking for Norman Wisdom?

New Tue 20 May 14 09:43   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Alanovich

>> Didn't the Albanians have an extraordinary and eccentric liking for Norman Wisdom? >> Yes, by dint of the fact that the only foreign TV or films which Enver Hoxha allowed to be broadcast were Norman Wisdom films. The Albanians know him affectionately as "Pitkin". Tony Hawks's book "One Hit Wonderland" is a funny account of the phenomenon. www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0Wox8jaW_A

New Tue 20 May 14 08:33   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Cliff Pope

>> Bit late though as we both voted for >> Dear Leader last week (postal) >> That's what I pointed out earlier. Half the debate and canvassing is wasted now because we allow postal voting for everyone weeks in advance. It's a bit like having a school debate where you vote first and then hear the speeches afterwards.

New Tue 20 May 14 09:08   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Dog

All the canvassing paraphernalia goes directly in the recycling box here as we are both staunch Kippers.       1

New Tue 20 May 14 09:33   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

>>All the canvassing paraphernalia goes directly in the recycling box here as we are both staunch Kippers. << I actually read mine, goes with the job I suppose so here is my summary: The Tory leaflet is a sort of vague promise, the sort that cheating ex's who know they will cheat again make. The Labour leaflet doesnt actually mention the EU at all, but it does feature a picture of Ed staring off into space, which rather sums him up. I didnt read the Lib Dem leaflet, I just laughed and the BNP stuck a cartoon through the door, I recall a bulldog featured ( when doesnt it? ). Not had anything from the Greens although I see they have paid for online advertising - as I write this, to the right there is an anti-UKIP Green Party advert on my screen.

New Tue 20 May 14 09:36   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Alanovich

Wasn't aiming for anything, but got Lib Dem. Which is how I usually vote. "You might be shocked to find yourself still agreeing with Nick Clegg but you actually still like a surprising number of Lib Dem policies. You’re socially liberal and believe in the need for a fairer society. But you also believe that it is individuals, not governments, who can change the world for the better."

New Tue 20 May 14 16:43   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Haywain

According to the quiz, I should be voting Conservative. How could I possibly vote for a party that thinks that importing more people to run our care services etc is a sustainable policy? How could I possibly vote for a party that is so naive of markets and economics that they introduce the 'help to buy' scheme to revitalise an already overblown housing market? What a bunch of idiots.

New Tue 20 May 14 16:56   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Manatee

Interesting programme on R4 this morning, "The Public Philosopher" addressed the question "Why Vote?" www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b043wx2s There were some really good points. What surprised me though was that so many people think that voting is about getting what is good for them, rather than looking at the wider picture of what sort of government/country they want to live in.

New Tue 20 May 14 17:04   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

order-order.com/2014/05/20/listen-milibands-radio-wiltshire-clusterfk/ A proud moment for all Labour voters everywhere, just dont expect him to remember your name.       2

New Tue 20 May 14 17:42   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - commerdriver

Let's throw another thought into the mix. Having worked in Edinburgh for 4 or 5 months over new year we discussed it a few times. If Scotland should stay part of the UK why should the UK not stay part of Europe? or vice versa? What's the difference? Last edited by: commerdriver on Tue 20 May 14 at 17:42

New Tue 20 May 14 17:44   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Manatee

Europe (as in the EU) isn't yet a country, so we can't be "in it" in the same way. We will be in due time, unless we leave the club.

New Tue 20 May 14 17:47   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - commerdriver

OK, semantics apart, If Scotland should be independent why should or shouldn't the UK be independent of the EU

New Tue 20 May 14 18:20   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Manatee

Ok, I'll play the game. Scotland should remain part of UK, in my opinion, because there is no good reason to separate. It is a region of the UK just like Wales, Northern Ireland, or Yorkshire. We are the same country, and culturally much closer than are most European nations to each other. The argument that they have never elected a Tory government is a straw man. Neither has Yorkshire. The UK either should, or shouldn't, be a member of the United States of Europe. One or the other. I can deal with either, though on the whole I'd rather be out because there is insufficient convergence of interests across the whole area, either economically or culturally at the present time. What is undesirable is the present half-in, half-out situation. And what is unrealisable, impossible, an oxymoron, is to be an independent country within the Euro (any more than Scotland can really be independent and have the UK pound).

New Tue 20 May 14 20:06   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Roger.

UKIP consider that it would be much, much, better for Scotland to vote for remaining in the Union. If however, the Scots vote to leave, we would accept their decision, as it's an expression of their free-will. Last edited by: Roger. on Tue 20 May 14 at 20:06

New Tue 20 May 14 20:36   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

>> Ok, I'll play the game. >> >> Scotland should remain part of UK, in my opinion, because there is no good reason >> to separate. It is a region of the UK just like Wales, Northern Ireland, or >> Yorkshire. We are the same country, and culturally much closer than are most European nations >> to each other. I'll bite!! There may be economic, fiscal etc rationles for a UK but I don't think the culture/history bit floats. Scotland, unlike Yorkshire or Lancashire, was a separate nation in recent, well documented, history. It is culturally different with it's own languages/dialects and different mix of influences from Celtic, Norse etc. The fact it has it's own legal system, differently rooted from England sets it apart as does Calvinistic religion. The Celts have links to Ireland and mainland Europe quite separate from anything shared with the English. Mainland Europe has it's cross border mixes too - Alsace, Basque, Poland/Germany and the Flemish part of Benelux so nothing unique there. . Some Welsh cavil at being described as a Principality never mind a region! Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 20 May 14 at 20:36

New Tue 20 May 14 20:44   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - No FM2R

The Scotch should do whatever they've a mind to. And then remember it was a bed of their own making, whichever is the chosen option. Frankly I think we need to focus on the major issues; the most significant of which is that the whining needs to stop. The Scotch choose independence, and they can whine all they like its nothing to do with us. The Scotch decide to stay and we'll have to live with the whining. There should be a binding non-whining clause in the referendum and if they don't sign it then they've got to go.

New Tue 20 May 14 20:55   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Haywain

"Frankly I think we need to focus on the major issues; the most significant of which is that the whining needs to stop." I am led to believe that if you really want to hear them whine, call them 'Scotch' and not the preferred 'Scots'. They will tell you, in no uncertain terms, that 'Scotch' is a drink! You stirrer, you!

New Wed 21 May 14 13:22   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - neiltoo

"It is never difficult to distinguish between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine." PG Wodehouse Last edited by: neiltoo on Wed 21 May 14 at 13:25

New Wed 21 May 14 12:11   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

conservativewoman.co.uk/kathy-gyngell-nigel-farage-disciples-need-protection-equality-police Farrageophobia is coming to a street near you!       1

New Wed 21 May 14 13:31   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Roger.

Well we've just returned from our final pre-election flourish - a street stall in the town. Wednesday, while it's a market day was pretty quiet, but we gave out quite a few leaflets and lots of helium filled balloons to toddlers! We had a good reception - no antis at all. Nearly all the wards we are leafleting have been covered now - just a 5 or 6 hour stint in the branch chairman's ward left to do.(He's been so busy helping others his campaign has suffered a bit). One of our candidates - a former Labour councillor - reckons that if there is a good turnout we might actually get a couple or so seats. If we do it will surprise (and please) me, as we are in the heart of the former North Notts/South Yorks coalfield area, with all that implies for a solid Labour area. So, now we wait!       5

New Wed 21 May 14 15:09   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Dog

Good luck then Dodger, and to UKIP of course, I haven't seen any knockers at all 'up here', door knockers that is :) Pity about the weather forecast for the morrow but, I suppose a lower turnout would affect blue, red, yellow, AND purple, in equal measure.

New Wed 21 May 14 13:36   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Roger.

I think that Nigel Farage will, once the dust has settled, take a break as he has been working incredibly hard for months now. He has said as much, insofar as he will concentrate on his MEP duties and UKIP will appoint spokesmen & women to take a much greater public profile in the run-up to 2015.       1

New Wed 21 May 14 14:01   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Alanovich

>> Nigel Farage.......his MEP duties Which broadly involves occasionally turning up and voting, and then usually in the direction least suited to the UK's interests in order to substantiate UKIP's position that the EU itself isn't in the UK's interest. Pretty good reason not to vote for them there. Here's a fun guide as to why not also: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/21/should-you-vote-ukip-flowchart_n_5363204.html?utm_hp_ref=topical-comedy       1

New Wed 21 May 14 14:57   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Alanovich

Offence taken, huh? Presumably from a Kipper. Which is ironic, 'cos usually they're the first sort to go banging on about the PC Brigade being all offended about stuff. If a dose of the truth and a bit of humour offend you that easily, well. There's not much hope.

New Wed 21 May 14 15:59   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Roger.

Red scowly is NOT from me!

New Wed 21 May 14 16:00   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Roger.

www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/21/EXCLUSIVE-UK-government-funds-anti-UKIP-group       1

New Wed 21 May 14 16:05   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Dog

>>UK-government-funds-anti-UKIP-group No surprise there, bloke with the short haircut gave £30million of our money to the insurgents in Syria last week. Bar stewards!       2

New Wed 21 May 14 16:19   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Alanovich

The thing is this: the main point of voting UKIP seems to be to get the UK out of the EU. But there's no point voting UKIP in a Euro election, because all they do is queer the UK's pitch in that Parliament. You will not get the UK removed from the EU by having a large UKIP presence in the European Parliament. To get the UK out of the EU, you need a UKIP UK Government. But, there's no way that's going to happen under our electoral system. So no point voting for them in a UK General Election. And there's no point voting for them in a Local Council election, because that's not going to fire the UK out of the EU either. So, when is there a point in voting for them? Never. Even if you think they're right, it's at best a wasted vote and at worst counter-productive to the UK's interests.       2

New Wed 21 May 14 16:45   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Pat

It's not a wasted vote Alanovic. I think you underestimate the amount of people who are utterly sick of the three major parties. We've been subjected to their spin, promises and not actually doing anything other than feather their own nests in a very dubious manner for long enough. A vote for anyone other than any one of them just might make them realise we need more straight talking and transparency, not to mention honesty in the future. It is us who vote them in and ultimately pay their wages but they seem to have forgotten that. Pat       4

New Wed 21 May 14 17:09   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Dog

>>It's not a wasted vote Alanovic. I think you underestimate the amount of people who are utterly sick of the three major parties. I'm with ^^this^^ geezer x 110%       3

New Wed 21 May 14 18:02   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - madf

>> >>It's not a wasted vote Alanovic. I think you underestimate the amount of people who >> are utterly sick of the three major parties. >> >> I'm with ^^this^^ geezer x 110% >> The only trouble is that no-one has come up with alternative viable policies. A protest vote with no real alternative is not a viable protest...

New Wed 21 May 14 18:04   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Roger.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/477165/Exclusive-Nigel-Farage-explains-why-Ukip-is-here-to-stay       2

New Wed 21 May 14 17:17   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - CGNorwich

All political parties the world over are the same. They promise the electorate what the electorate want to hear and then fail to deliver what was never possible in the first place. It' s how politics works. It would be extremely naive in my opinion to expect anything different from ukip. If you think Farage is somehow different from the others I am staggered I am also rather confused at the widespread hostility to the coalition government. They have managed to steer the economy to be at least pointing in the right direction. All the indicators look good at the moment and the future for the UK actually looks rather promising. Every country in the world has it's problems. Ours has far fewer than most..

New Wed 21 May 14 18:28   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Pat

>>All political parties the world over are the same. They promise the electorate what the electorate want to hear and then fail to deliver what was never possible in the first place. It' s how politics works. It would be extremely naive in my opinion to expect anything different from ukip. If you think Farage is somehow different from the others I am staggered << But are we prepared to put up with this forever? I'm certainly not and I know a lot of my working class colleagues aren't. Farage may not be different, but at least we are prepared to give him the chance to prove he is and you the chance to say 'I told you so' Whatever the outcome, the message that things have to change for the three major parties, will be received and understood. Pat

New Wed 21 May 14 18:35   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Manatee

>> >>All political parties the world over are the same. They promise the electorate what the >> electorate want to hear and then fail to deliver what was never possible in the >> first place. It' s how politics works. It would be extremely naive in my opinion >> to expect anything different from ukip. If you think Farage is somehow different from the >> others I am staggered >> >> << >> >> But are we prepared to put up with this forever? >> >> I'm certainly not and I know a lot of my working class colleagues aren't. >> >> Farage may not be different, but at least we are prepared to give him the >> chance to prove he is and you the chance to say 'I told you so' >> >> Whatever the outcome, the message that things have to change for the three major parties, >> will be received and understood. >> >> Pat Look for the root cause. Politicians makes empty promises because it gets them elected. When voters stop rewarding the winners of the promise competition, they'll stop doing it. A bit like newspapers in that respect.

New Wed 21 May 14 17:28   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

>>He has said as much, insofar as he will concentrate on his MEP duties and UKIP will appoint spokesmen & women to take a much greater public profile in the run-up to 2015.<< Actually I think it is fair to say that a number of new faces have been breaking into the media circus so Nigel doesnt have to do it all, Suzanne Evans especially has really impressed me but also O'Flynn has proven to be a very sound catch for us. Honourable mention to Tim Aker who has also put in regular stints, often in hostile territory. I am hoping Margot Parker features in the future, it looks like she will win a seat in the Euros. I was manning a street stall with her recently, she is a genuinely delightful lady in person, not to mention highly intelligent and well informed. She also remembers your name, take note Ed Miliband. Last edited by: ^Stu^ on Wed 21 May 14 at 17:28

New Wed 21 May 14 17:32   UKIP Debate - Volume 11 - Stuu

www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/21/Labour-stalwart-defects-to-ukip I was reading a story only the other day about donors defecting over the next year, looks like it has started.