This is a serious question and I don't wish to offend anyone but, if I called my dog ni**er or blackie would that create a stink?
Bare in mind where I live, and the fact I'm unlikely to meet many folk during the course of a week.
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So, do we have to re-write nursery rhymes now?
Eenie Meeni Minie Mo, catch a *insert word of choice* by his toe.
Words fail me.
Pat
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Times change. Of course the n version is unsuitable now.
As kids we never said that anyway, it was usually
Eeny meeny miny mo
Put the baby on the po
When he's done
Wipe his bum
With a piece of chewing gum
I feel a duty to record this for posterity as it is not mentioned among the many versions on Wikipedia.
If the babies were offended, they never said so.
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I think Clarkson knows exactly what he is doing. I believe he deliberately pushes things as far as he can, sometimes he goes over the edge.
I expect he shrugs his shoulders and puts it all down to publicity.
BTW. I have heard black rugby players call each other by that word in fun. Why is it ok for them?
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Have you tried asking one if he'd mind you using it, Duncan?
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>> Have you tried asking one if he'd mind you using it, Duncan?
>>
Funnily enough... No, I haven't!
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" I have heard black rugby players call each other by that word in fun. Why is it ok for them?"
Minorities who view themselves as oppressed often use the insulting word amongst themselves as a kind of badge of togtherness.
I remember when on teaching practice in a school in London with a high Jewish representation, I knew I had been accepted when one of the boys told me a Jewish joke: "Who was the most famous Jewish outlaw in the Wild West?" Answer: Billy the y**.
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Fri 2 May 14 at 09:35
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>> Times change. Of course the n version is unsuitable now.
Try telling certain rap song writers that. No end of songs containing the n word, yet no one complains about it.
Maybe Clarkson should have sung the nursery rhyme instead of just narrating it.
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So, do we have to re-write nursery rhymes now?
Happened 30 years ago, Pat. Quite right too; not a word I'd have wanted my children to learn at school. They know it now, and know its history, and they'd be more appalled than me to hear someone who should know better use it for fun. Young people have values too, many of them more honourable than ours.
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When this lot were popular there was a certain double standard to the usage of the word
tinyurl.com/lq6g2bg
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That rhyme wa taught to my Mother as a child, who taught it to me 65 years ago and I taught it to my son.
Times do change but it's a shame the acceptable 'bad' language I taught my child not to us has become acceptable and not just by the riff raff either.
Some 15 years ago I attended a high profile event where a number of CEO's spoke to a mixed male/female audience. I was not offended, but shocked to hear the F word used as normal in such a situation by people I had respected.
I expect to hear it in a haulage yard but not in a boardroom.
Pat
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They'll be banning Obby Oss day next, I'll wager.
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I think the evolving of what is acceptable and what isn't can sometimes cause unnecessary difficulties, mainly when jumped up pillocks get involved and over egg the pudding (e.g. early 90's when we were all told we had to ask for 'coffee without milk' rather than 'black coffee' in the police canteens)...
....and......society can often be not tolerant enough of those who don't understand and feel left behind i.e. the older generation who were comfortable with the way things were and have not necessarily noticed the change.
I am now 50. When I'm 70 there will be things that I say now, that will have evolved into something I then shouldn't....am I a bad person if I have continued to use it and didn't notice or think it's some modern fad that will soon move on, but it doesn't?
I'm not talking about those who know very well and are quite happy to offend and continue to do so.
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>>
>> I am now 50. When I'm 70 there will be things that I say now,
>> that will have evolved into something I then shouldn't....am I a bad person if I
>> have continued to use it and didn't notice or think it's some modern fad that
>> will soon move on, but it doesn't?
>>
Good post W-P.
And of course the cycle of acceptability moves backwards too, and sometimes comes round again.
N is a good case in point. It's standard usage amongs black people in the US I think, at least if films are an accurate reflection. It's probably moving that way here too.
It can't be that long before it crosses the race boundary and perhaps becomes acceptably standard again.
The current generation of zealous critics will themselves one day feel uncomfortably out of touch, as a younger generation uses or rejects in horror lots of the words that they grew up with.
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The Agatha Christie story had it's title changed to "Ten little Indians" quite soon after publication, I think.
I'm not sure that it's a lot better, really. Not so racist, but a bit patronising to Indians ?
Has the Conrad classic novel been changed?
The dog in the Dam Busters (If that's the right film) has always been a bit of a problem.
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That's the one I was thinking of - died on 16 May 1943 when he was hit by a car!
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"Has the Conrad classic novel been changed?"
Known as Children of the Sea at one point when published in America.
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Fri 2 May 14 at 09:28
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>> Eenie Meeni Minie Mo, catch a *insert word of choice* by his toe.
>>
My son was taught to insert the word "ticket" at school, which makes nonsense of the whole rhyme.
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Ticket? - Tiger is the version usually used these day I think. Sure the lad didn't mis-hear?
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"Tiger is the version usually used these day……….."
But surely, if you only include tigers in the rhyme, you are leaving yourself open to criticism for not including lions, leopards, ocelots etc. Should the wording also state "* please note, other wildcats are available"?
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Is it just me ? Or are we (UK society) going a bit OTT with all this stuff. Listening to Clarkson's apology without knowing the background sounds like he's just committed he most heinous crime.
It's as though we are in East Germany in the 1960s when parents were afraid to speak openly in front the their kids for of being anti-state. Or even as in North Korea today.
OK - it's not acceptable but please - some sense of proportion.
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Mister Clarkson also called Gordon Brown a one-eyed Scottish idiot.
Just saying.
:}
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I've not listened to the clip or the apology but seems a bit odd to apologise for something he says he didn't say...
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He did say (mumbled) the 'N' word I believe - but it wasn't actually broadcast.
He needs a slap though IMO because rather than mumble it, he could just as easily have said tiger, baby etc.
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We used to say nipper when I was a kid, never heard the 'other' version until I was an adult.
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My impression was that the apology itself was a send-up. He said that he had tried his very best not to utter the word, being so deeply aware of its awfulness, but that the fact he was now appearing to beg everyone's forgiveness indicated that his efforts had not been entirely successful.
If that isn't taking it I don't know what is. But everyone here and elsewhere seems to have missed that.
:o}
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There cannot be a person left alive in the UK who doesn't know that Ni**er is offensive when used to describe a person of African/Caribbean etc heritage. It being offensive is not something new or a piece of misplaced PC like WP's anecdote about canteen coffee, it has been so since not long after the end of WW2.
My father wouldn't allow the eeeny meeny miny mo rhyme with the N word in the sixties and IIRC reproved my maternal grandmother for teaching it.
Nevil Shute's novel 'In the Wet' features as its hero a pilot called David Anderson. Because of his part Aboriginal heritage Anderson uses the nickname n*****. It's quite clear from the narrative that such usage was shocking and was only acceptable in the ironic way in which he used it. The novel, albeit set in the future, was written in 1953. Shute himself was no lefty, he emigrated to Australia thinking the UK too socialist and his views on matters such as the NHS, social benefits etc often emerge in other novels - A Far Country being just one example.
OTOH there really shouldn't be any issue with the word being used in a correct historical context including Guy Gibson's dog, drama set in the Deep South or wherever.
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>> My impression was that the apology itself was a send-up. He said that he had
>> tried his very best not to utter the word, being so deeply aware of its
>> awfulness, but that the fact he was now appearing to beg everyone's forgiveness indicated that
>> his efforts had not been entirely successful.
>>
>> If that isn't taking it I don't know what is. But everyone here and elsewhere
>> seems to have missed that.
>>
>> :o}
>>
Didn't escape me. I don't think his apology sounded very sincere, and one cant help but wonder why this has only just come to light some years after the event
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I wonder how many black people were/are actually offended by this episode. Or how much of it is the PC lobby taking it upon themselves to get offended on behalf of complete strangers.
We used to say 'tinker' in this rhyme. I suppose that might offend Irish travellers.
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I wonder if he is tied into some kind of contract and wants to be "released" early....
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>> I wonder how many black people were/are actually offended by this episode.
Well given that, If I heard the story right on the news this morning, it was never broadcast, not many is a fair guess
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Sorry, I meant the episode as in the story / saga.
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>> I wonder how many black people were/are actually offended by this episode.
The term itself is offensive irrespective.
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>>The term itself is offensive irrespective<<
No, that's rubbish Bromp.
Repeated in the context of an age old nursery rhyme it certainly isn't.
Said jokingly to a lot of my coloured/black *insert whatever is PC this week* friends (who I see ONLY as friends) it isn't, and I would soon have the same hurled back at me in humour.
Said in anger designed to insult, I agree then it is but the person has to find it insulting for it to be so.
However, said as you have done above, it breeds sensitivity where none actually exists.
Pat
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>> I wonder how many black people were/are actually offended by this episode.
>The term itself is offensive irrespective.
Especially since it seems to be a word used freely to describe themselves, their friends and every one else.
Ridiculous over-reaction.
There seems to be this belief that a word can be offensive per se. How can that be? Surely it its the way the word is used that brings the meaning?
And on this particular word, I'll care one way or another about it when black people stop using it in songs, in general conversation and in interviews.
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>>The term itself is offensive irrespective.
PC claptrap.
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>> >>The term itself is offensive irrespective.
>>
>> PC claptrap.
Try looking it up in a dictionary.
While, as AC says below, context is everything where serious offence is concerned the term is explicitly derogatory.
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Rubbish!
It is supposedly an offensive derogatory term when used toward black people.
Equally it is seemingly a very cool term used between black people.
It would appear then that the word itself is not offensive per se since if it were, it would be deemed offensive in both cases.
If you insist on claiming it is, then I assume that you advocate and would pursue the prosecution of two black people where one uses it in reference to the other, even though they were being friendly?
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:48
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No "Minority" or any other group has a right to hijack a word or term for their own use and exclude everyone else from using it.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Fri 2 May 14 at 18:18
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'No "Minority" or any other group has a right to hijack a word or term for their own use and exclude everyone else from using it.'
Why on earth not? Cockney rhyming slang does it - the theory being that it was specifically developed to prevent those not "in the know" from understanding it.
Language belongs to those who use it, and they can use it how they like. That is what a living language is - it changes, it evolves in the mouths and minds of its users.
Of course, some who use it inevitably get on their high horse and try to link their own brand of "linguistic correctness" (who uses it, how it's used) with some half-baked notion of morality.
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Fri 2 May 14 at 18:27
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>> 'No "Minority" or any other group has a right to hijack a word or term
>> for their own use and exclude everyone else from using it.'
>>
>> Why on earth not? Cockney rhyming slang does it - the theory being that it
>> was specifically developed to prevent those not "in the know" from understanding it.
>>
>>
I've never heard of a non-Londoner having to apologise for using rhyming slang, have you?
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>>I've never heard of a non-Londoner having to apologise for using rhyming slang, have you?
No, But I've heard some Americans who damned well should.
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>>has a right to hijack a word or term for their own use and exclude everyone else from using it.
Absolutely. How can it be treated as an offensive word however it is used on one had, but harmless however it is used on the other.
PC claptrap put about by the professionally "offended on someone else's behalf" club.
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>> I wonder how many black people were/are actually offended by this episode.
From what I gather, the clip in question didn't actually get broadcast. 3 versions were filmed and the version where he used the word "Teacher" instead of the "N" word was broadcast. The other 2 versions ended up on the cutting room floor and someone else got hold of them and start the mud slinging.
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Storm in a teacup as usual.
Stupid white honky.
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This stuff can be a bit of a minefield given the prevalence of tiresome forms of PC and the nasty mean little minds so many people have.
Where the famous n word is concerned, context and intention are everything. It will usually be crystal clear to all present whether the word is used offensively or oppressively in any way. When someone misunderstands a proper explanation usually suffices. Anyone absolutely determined to take offence when none is intended is set on a quarrelsome course and has to be dealt with in those terms.
But it is a minefield. It's embarrassing to be accused of racism even if black people present leap to your defence.
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>>Where the famous n word is concerned, context and intention are everything. It will usually be crystal clear to all present whether the word is used offensively or oppressively in any way. When someone misunderstands a proper explanation usually suffices. Anyone absolutely determined to take offence when none is intended is set on a quarrelsome course and has to be dealt with in those terms.
<<
There's me thinking I'd just said exactly that but in a lot fewer words:)
You on a word bonus AC?!
Pat
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>> You on a word bonus AC?!
Cheeky cow... splutter fume...
Actually this is something that happens a lot here especially in long or complex threads. I have complained in the past about posting something and then seeing versions of it from others later in the thread. You weren't the only other person saying sensible things about this, FMR did too among others.
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May all the various deities forgive me, but I agree with every word you wrote AC.
I bet Pat wishes she'd said that. Dunno why she didn't really.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 2 May 14 at 17:47
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That's it, in the absence of Zero I'm going to flounce now:)
Pat
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Wonderful quotation in the Daily Mash link:
"...building a huge fanbase by treading a fine line between being a **** and a prick.”
Well said.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 01:48
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Was talking to one of my colleagues in work who is black. He said he hadn't heard the word used in his presence for many years - he reckons it was in common currency locally back in the 70s. He doesn't use it himself - and would be offended if someone used it at him now - he is ex-army and no shrinking violet. He is also a JP so has some perspective. Not a word I would ever use personally.
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>> Was talking to one of my colleagues in work who is black. He said he
>> hadn't heard the word used in his presence for many years - he reckons it
>> was in common currency locally back in the 70s. He doesn't use it himself -
>> and would be offended if someone used it at him now - he is ex-army
>> and no shrinking violet. He is also a JP so has some perspective. Not a
>> word I would ever use personally.
Pretty much my perspective based on conversations with black colleagues too.
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>> Not a word I would ever use personally.
I would and I have. But very sparingly and only in specific contexts. Even so I haven't always got away with it. It's a bit of a minefield.
It goes without saying that those who say they are offended aren't always the ones you expect.
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The link doesn't work for me Stuart.
Pat
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>> The link doesn't work for me Stuart.
Pat>>
Just left-click on it..:-) Among the points made are that the said tape has never been broadcast and highlighting the rivalry between two red top tabloids, neither of which I would even bother to pick up and read, by one publishing the alleged offence....
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Wouldn't worry about it Pat. It's a piece from Richard Littlejohn's column in the Mail, an op/ed article that adds nothing but more froth. It tries to say he didn't use the word because he hesitated or mumbled it.
The point is he did use it even if he fluffed it for effect. If he'd not been courting controversy he could have used one of a number of neutral versions already well known and quoted by posters above.
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>> Wouldn't worry about it Pat. It's a piece from Richard Littlejohn's column in the Mail,
>> an op/ed article that adds nothing but more froth. It tries to say he didn't
>> use the word because he hesitated or mumbled it.
>>
>> The point is he did use it even if he fluffed it for effect. If
>> he'd not been courting controversy he could have used one of a number of neutral
>> versions already well known and quoted by posters above.
>>
As I've already stated, the tape in question has never been broadcast. The alleged claim is a piece of deliberate mischief making with a hidden agenda. Unfortunately most people don't bother to find out the real facts.....:-(
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5 of my cousins are married to black people and all but one of those families has children and in one case grand children.
Your conversations with your colleagues would seem quite at odds with those I've had with my family.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, my cousins and I would seem pretty well aligned.
And the one I just emailed with apparently couldn't give a stuff* what Clarkson did or didn't say never mind the opinion of those offended on others' behalf.
*he didn't say "stuff".
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 3 May 14 at 20:45
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Clarksons column in todays Sun speaks volumes. I tried to link to it but you have to be a Sun+ member as far as I can make out.
Pat
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I only ever heard the original version.
It is so imprinted in my sub-conscience that if I was to use the rhyme, like Clarkson, the original word would quite likely be the one to come to mind and maybe, mouth.
Perhaps this was what happened with J.C. and as it emerged he tried to stifle it, realising that these days it is not used in polite society?
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>>It is so imprinted in my sub-conscience that if I was to use the rhyme, like Clarkson, the original word would quite likely be the one to come to mind and maybe, mouth
The difference is though Dodger, that Clarkson is in the public eye and represents the state broadcaster, and you don't, yet.
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As always The Guardian has quoted the bits it wanted to and left other bits out!
I have scanned the article and linked to it but not sure if it will work.
i100.photobucket.com/albums/m34/Veeeight/IMG_0001.jpg
Pat
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I've struggled as best I can to read that Pat and I understand what he's saying. Even in my own frame of mind, which Mark thinks represents PC Claptrap, I regard it as at the bottom end of bad word offending.
OTOH the whole TG team play on a 'naughty boy in class' mode where they (think they) know just how far they can push teacher. That's how we got the stuff about Mexicans and the line about the slope on the bridge.
Until anyone proves different I think JC deliberately mumbled or fluffed the word for effect. If I've read it correctly he did so twice before substituting a different word - teacher.
Not much sympathy if he's now got a final warning.
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>>
>> Not much sympathy if he's now got a final warning.
>>
What are the BBC going to do?
Sack Clarkson? Clarkson IS Top Gear! If they sack him, they won't have a programme.
I think that they all know exactly what they are doing and they sail as close to the wind as they can, as often as they can.
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One my best pals these past 30 odd years is a black Yorkshireman of Jamaican immigrant extraction.
When we are bantering as old friends will, he calls me things which might offend some and I do the same to him.
He does though have a wicked sense of humour and once when I was introducing him to another acquaintance of shall we say a more traditional nature, when asked who he was to me, he dead pan replied 'Oh I'm just his N..... Sah'
;-)
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Just reflecting, should I be offended if someone refers to me as a 'Jock'? Should a Welsh person be upset by 'Taff', an Irish person by 'Mick' or 'Paddy' ?
Just checking because I'm not bothered by it. Wouldn't have to be really would I ?
There are much much bigger fish to fry in life.
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A lot of the time, non pc language 'offends' only the pc brigade, not the subject of the non pc descriptor.
I had somebody complain about my use of the word 'disabled' on a website I write. I'm in that group - I legitimately have a blue badge.
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I agree with Humph... however n***** and Coloured has got particular connotations linked to slavery and apartheid. Words with no place in a civilised society. I would suggest that anyone who agrees with the use of the word asks the next black person they see what they think.
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My pal regularly uses that term to refer to himself but I wouldn't dream of using it to describe him and I am cool with both of those positions. Mind you, some of the things ha has called me when I've beaten him at squash could be considered a lot worse but given the rarity of that particular outcome to the event I can live with it !
;-)
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Agreed....One of my volunteers is half Indian (Bengali) half Irish...he does tease me !
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It seems that no-one is concerned about who leaked the tape it was on. The one that was never broadcast and should have been safely in the archives of the BBC.
Pat
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Should it ? What hidden from public view ? Why ?
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>> Should it ? What hidden from public view ? Why ?
>>
Because it was an off camera remark - even though one was still filming - and not intended to get into the public domain. If everything I or anyone else had ever said in private was made public we'd all have some serious explaining to do.
The remark was not an insult aimed at anyone in particular and no harm was either done or intended, it's just that we've become such experts in mock outrage over the last few decades that something not even worth mentioning becomes a sacking offence. I would not be surprised to see plod stick his size 12 in should some busybody decide to make an official complaint.
Modern society needs to man up and grow some.
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Well said Robin O, the BBC is financed by us all and should be looking into their own security issues.
Will they? No, of course not, there are far more miles in fuelling a piece of media attention.
Clarkson says that his lawyer advised him NOT to apologise for something he didn't say in public, but as usual, the Beeb won the day.
Pat
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>> Well said Robin O, the BBC is financed by us all and should be looking
>> into their own security issues.
>>
>> Will they? No, of course not, there are far more miles in fuelling a piece
>> of media attention.
>>
>> Clarkson says that his lawyer advised him NOT to apologise for something he didn't say
>> in public, but as usual, the Beeb won the day.
>>
>> Pat
The comments were made during a recording which, if it was in the usual form, included an audience. It was therefore absolutely public.
The fact that the specific recordings were canned is neither here nor there.
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>>
>> The comments were made during a recording which, if it was in the usual form,
>> included an audience. It was therefore absolutely public.
>>
>> The fact that the specific recordings were canned is neither here nor there.
>>
Less than half a TG episode is filmed in front of an audience. Most is shot on location and played back (Fully edited) to the studio audience during the show. Clarkson may push the boundaries, but he's no fool and unlikely to put himself at that much risk.
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>> Less than half a TG episode is filmed in front of an audience.
But where were the takes in question filmed?
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>> But where were the takes in question filmed?
From the clip on you tube, it looks like the TG test track, where only him and a handful of film crew were present.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGUwx6zqbOw
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I think the Mirror got hold of it and broke the story. Said paper and JC have history going back to when he decked then editor Piers Morgan.
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Apologies for another rambling contribution.
Whether these epithets are perceived as offensive depends to a large extent on people's own idea of their positions in the world ethnic pecking order.
The term 'oyigbo' or 'oyinbo' in Yoruba West Africa, and 'mzungu' in East Africa, are two African slang terms for whites that probably aren't particularly flattering. There are certainly others far less flattering that aren't so well known because used by smaller groups. Yet I've never known anyone to be offended by these terms.
However in the Gate in the sixties an academic whose wife worked as a waitress in the famous Fiesta One restaurant in Westbourne Park Road rudely used the term 'c***' about one of the proprietors. He was run out into the street immediately and not allowed back for several weeks.
Actually he was a quarrelsome man and none too bright like so many professional academics. On another occasion he got across the multiracial gangsters who were his landlords and was given quite a severe beating, kicked, punched, bottled and hammered over the head with the flat of a samurai sword. Bit of a twit really but lucky not to be seriously injured or killed.
*'c***' - rhymes with wooden spoon not James Hunt
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 3 May 14 at 16:13
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Ah of course he decked Piers Moron. Not so bad then....
I disagree with Robin...Clarkson is paid vast amounts of money by effectively what is the taxpayer. If he wants to gob off offensively do it in his own time. Man's a knob.
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>>
>> I disagree with Robin...Clarkson is paid vast amounts of money by effectively what is the
>> taxpayer.
>>
For whom he makes a healthy profit with overseas sales of Top Gear. What you say is not dictated by your wages.
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>> If he wants to gob off offensively do it in his own time. Man's a knob.
A bit severe Rob, verging on po-faced. It's pretty obvious Clarkson isn't a racist in real life but a rich liberal media person. He has right-wing Tory politics like quite a few here, but he doesn't look like a knob to me. He looks like a laid-back, mischievous individual who amuses a wide spectrum of opinion with calculated bad taste. Or bad taste that comes naturally as it sometimes does to so many of us (he added looking uneasily down at his feet).
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He is actually a very entertaining writer. Arguably better at that than presenting. His Times column is almost always good. In my opinion anyway.
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He is an entertainer, not a philosopher or world leader, just an entertainer.
As long as he continues to entertain, then he will continue to be successful. When he stops to entertain he will stop to be successful.
If you find him "not entertaining" then don't watch him. I'm going off him, but his shows are still ok if you don't take them seriously.
However, we seem to be going towards the point where society wants being offensive to be against the law. In the best case this will turn our world into a grey, lowest common denominator, boring and stifling place. In the worst, then what you think as a reasonable point of view will be deemed against the law and you will be in trouble also.
We live in a society. In order to do so one needs to make allowances and compromises. Including letting people be stupid, say stupid stuff and be offensive.
Nobody with a level of free thought, strong mind or independence or initiative can avoid being offensive some times.
Even Jesus* p****d people off.
And in this case he wasn't even trying to be offensive, he was trying to be funny. And I guess it found out it wasn't. But Clarkson as a package frequently is. And so far, for me at least, the package is just about worthwhile.
You will find that if you stop watching/listening to someone who is paid to entertain, then eventually they will go away.
And the BBC resent any of their stars to be successful outside the BBC, however much money they are making inside for the BBC.
*BBC Notice; other deities are available.
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Yeah FMR, brilliant, tried to say something similar upthread but simply couldn't run to the length, or the verbal dexterity.
:o}
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>> We live in a society. In order to do so one needs to make allowances and compromises. Including letting people be stupid, say stupid stuff and be offensive.
>>
>> Nobody with a level of free thought, strong mind or independence or initiative can avoid
>> being offensive some times.
Exactly that.
May I also add, that a word is just a word.
I believe that the offensiveness or not, of any word, is not from the word itself, but the context in which is used - and the way it is said.
Last edited by: swiss tony on Sat 3 May 14 at 17:48
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It's down to good manners, surely?
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>>May I also add, that a word is just a word.
I believe that the offensiveness or not, of any word, is not from the word itself, but the context in which is used - and the way it is said.>>
Never a truer word in the case of the final six words...:-)
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You know what, I don't give a tuppeny fart what JC says or doesn't say !
Report today that a beer available in the House of Commons bar has had to have it's label changed because it shows a Bacup Coconut Dancer. These guys black up for the dance, not because of any race thing but because they represent tin miners who came to Lancashire from Cornwall to work in the mills !
It's all gone mad !
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>>a word is just a word...
Absolutely.
I found this interesting, albeit 5 years old....
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/8339945.stm
And after her last comments in that video, my following comments become relevant.
I had never used the "c word". Not once in my life. A friend of mine explained to me that I was giving that word power by putting it on a pedestal and it became inevitable that I would find it offensive, *however* it was used.
He decided to, and told me he was going to, devalue the word in my mind. I guess that was about 5 years ago, or something. He then conducted a campaign over probably a two year period of forcing me to face that word, in jokes, in insults, in conversation.
To the point that ultimately I got bored of the word. And bored of him going on about it, to be honest.
Now, who knows whether it was a good thing or not, because he caused me to use it, when I *never* had done so before. Yet on the other hand it lost all offensive value to me. Well, perhaps not "all" but certainly a lot of it.
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Which c-word is that FMR? If it's the non-racist one I use it all the time like a Welshman.
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Its a word they have in Scunthorpe.
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Good Lord, that didn't get asterisks and I didn't even try to dodge the system.
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I had a word fight with the swearfilter about that one quite some time ago and convinced it to behave.
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There was a bit of a laugh here the other day about the C word. The Welsh version has a "o" instead of an "u" in the middle and is common currency in the town where I work in Welsh. In fact there's a saying "Caernarfon where "c" is your best friend and worst enemy" you hear it on the street there peppering almost every other sentence...a non-native person who only spoke the language in rudiments was at the local Wetherspoons used the "u" version to order a beer - thinking he was doing the right thing and was immediately kicked out much to his bewilderment.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-27291467
Seems he's being lined up...his wife has ditched him according to the Mail.
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>his wife has ditched him according to the Mail.
Perhaps. Its difficult to know who is the ditcher or the ditchee. However, it was 3 years ago, they're just going to divorce now.
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Personally I thought the slope joke was funny. Scripted of course, but slipped in cunningly. My guess is that a majority perhaps of TG viewers wouldn't have got it without having it explained as it now has been (Vietnam being a bit before their time).
There are two ways of looking at the deadpan throwaway presentation: either it was a bit of Clarksonish wit, rather coarse perhaps but that doesn't bother sensible people too much, or it was a wicked cunning attempt at mean subliminal racism.
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>>My guess is that a majority perhaps of TG viewers wouldn't have got it without having it explained as it now has been
I didn't get it at the time. I didn't even know the word "slope", although I guess its obvious once its pointed out.
I don't find racism funny, now racist comments whether or not racisim is intended.
However, I find it *really* hard to stomach the pretended taking of offence, never mind the pretended taking of offence on behalf of a third party.
He shouldn't have said it, but I wouldn't give the time of day to the type of person seemingly and *so* publicly declaring themselves offended by it so far.
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>> I didn't even know the word "slope"
Slope, slant, dink, gook... nothing if not verbally inventive, the GI ripped on killer weed, opium and all its derivatives, living in constant fear of those gooks etc.
Nixon ended the war and they came back to the US and became bank robbers and so on.
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>> There are two ways of looking at the deadpan throwaway presentation: either it was a
>> bit of Clarksonish wit, rather coarse perhaps but that doesn't bother sensible people too much,
>> or it was a wicked cunning attempt at mean subliminal racism.
I regard myself as pretty tuned in to what are and are not slurs against race/nationality and was unaware of slope being so used.
I suspect it was just Jezza style wit but he knew what he was doing and was 'baiting teacher' as I've suggested above. I teacher eventually flips and gives him six of the best he shouldn'y be surprised.
Yaroo! as Bunter said.
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>>
>> Yaroo! as Bunter said.
>>
Careful now Brompt, Bunter is definately non PC these days. Racist and sexist, schoolboys smoking and gambling tch tch.
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He was the first clinically obese fictional schoolboy, so we must celebrate his diversity; but was regarded as being fat rather than having a condition or issue.
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I wonder if his postal order has arrived yet?
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>>
>> I regard myself as pretty tuned in to what are and are not slurs against
>> race/nationality and was unaware of slope being so used.
Likewise.
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>> Personally I thought the slope joke was funny.
Some unknown actress (Somi Guha) has been rattling cages about it
tinyurl.com/mf5739v - Daily Wail
An actress is suing the BBC for up to £1million after Top Gear host Jeremy Clarkson allegedly made a racist remark during the series finale of the show.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 7 May 14 at 18:46
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I wonder if she even saw the show...
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I guess Hammond was also complicit in being the 'straight man' for the gag.
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Still completely baffled as to why Clarkson has to apologise for something that's never even been broadcast.
PC gone absolutely and utterly mad.
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>> PC gone absolutely and utterly mad.
Whether it's mad or not, it certainly evokes strong feelings, and the BBC will be sensitive to that in their deliberations.
www.newstatesman.com/media/2014/05/n-word-jeremy-clarkson-has-finally-urinated-live-rail-racism
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>> Whether it's mad or not, it certainly evokes strong feelings, and the BBC will be
>> sensitive to that in their deliberations.
>>
>> www.newstatesman.com/media/2014/05/n-word-jeremy-clarkson-has-finally-urinated-live-rail-racism
A longer and more articulate exposition of my own views.
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"A longer and more articulate exposition of my own views."
So, like me, it appears that Musa Okwonga hasn't seen the Clarkson video either. He's clearly an articulate chap who makes a living out of being offended and writing about it - a professional.
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>> So, like me, it appears that Musa Okwonga hasn't seen the Clarkson video either. He's
>> clearly an articulate chap who makes a living out of being offended and writing about
>> it - a professional.
>>
The video is on The Mirror's website - you need to search properly as Google is coy about showing quick results for ni**er. So far as I can see Okwanga doesn't disclose whether he's seen it or not. You don't need to see it though, the fact that it's been reported and Clarkson has apologised rather reaching for a lawyer tells us enough.
I've listened to the clip. The word, albeit mumbled over, is distinguishable - you couldn't take it for anything else. He was pushing the boundaries as usual, whether or not he knew it would end up on the cutting room floor.
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"The video is on The Mirror's website - you need to search properly"
1. Why would I bother looking at the Mirror website?
2. Why would I waste my time googling for Clarkson? I have little time for the bloke.
I don't go searching for things to be offended about.
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"An actress is suing the BBC for up to £1million after Top Gear host Jeremy Clarkson allegedly made a racist remark during the series finale of the show."
I wasn't aware that 'slope' was a racist word or had a meaning other than 'incline'. My vocabulary of useable words is slowly but surely decreasing; 'struth, I can remember a time when, if my wife was out walking the dog, I'd have casually remarked that she was out dogging.
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AC
That's pretty much my view (nearly said "slant" - whoops!) on it.
I take the point though about the risks of coarse but quite funny wit merging imperceptibly into cunning but disguised racism.
There's an added dimension though arising from the slow influx to British usage of expressions that derived from US or Australia. Some expressions or words have long been harmless here but are very rude or offensive in US, or v.v. We can't be expected to keep abreast with all shades of meaning in all branches of English around the world.
Not relevant in this case of course, because Clarkson was deliberately playing with the unfamiliarity of the usage in British English.
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Thu 8 May 14 at 10:03
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"We're now into the realms of lunacy - ……………… "
…… says it all.
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Yup.
The offending lines seem to be
He's been tanning n-----s out in Timbuktu
Now he's coming back to do the same for you
Now we're talking about the sun here, so the insult is purely the word, which was apparently acceptable in the 1930s.
Maybe it's because I is white. Maybe I'd feel differently if I wasn't.
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"Maybe it's because I is white"
Yep - you'll be getting melanoma, honky ;-)
Last edited by: Haywain on Sat 10 May 14 at 20:46
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>> Yup.
>>
>> The offending lines seem to be
>>
>> He's been tanning n-----s out in Timbuktu
>> Now he's coming back to do the same for you
>>
>>
>> Maybe it's because I is white. Maybe I'd feel differently if I wasn't.
>>
The word is offensive. Its a derogatory reference to African etc people. End of.
Like use of the 'c'word (for female genitalia) as an insult it might be OK in dramatic etc context and with pre warning. There's no need to bleep name of Guy Gibson's dog from showings of the Dambusters and likewise if one crook is calling another a c*&t in police drama.
Neither word has any place in light entertainment. Only exception might be if programme focussed on changing mores and, as above carried a warning.
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Taken completely out of context from Wikipedia "Acceptance of intra-group usage of the word "nigga" is still debated, although it has established a foothold amongst younger generations. The NAACP denounces the use of both "nigga" and "n*****". Mixed-race usage of "nigga" is still considered taboo, particularly if the speaker is white. However, trends indicate that usage of the term in intragroup settings is increasing even amongst white youth due to the popularity of rap and hip hop culture"
So, seems possible it might go full circle. Make sure you keep up, Bromps :-)
(btw twerking is now apparently old fashioned, according to that font of knowledge that is Alan Chatty Man Carr. And it was runner-up in Word of the year last year! Just thought I'd raise it here so we can all pretend to be a bit hip)
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I cannot take outrage about a word seriously when it comes from a group who uses that word.
It would be as daft as me objecting to the word "Gringo" despite the fact that we refer to each other as "Gringo".
On which point, Gringo can be pleasant and merely descriptive or it can be extremely denigrating. Depends how/when.
At such time as I hear of black people being hounded by other black people for the usage of the word n*****, then I will take it seriously.
[This despite the fact that it is *not* a word I use myself]
Sometimes the past needs to be passed. And one day black people will have to let slavery go, just as the Jews will have to let the holocaust go, and we will have to let Northern Ireland go. [Before anyone gets their undies jumbled, I am not equating, nor comparing, those three things at any level].
Mind you, people not being discriminatory would help.
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>> At such time as I hear of black people being hounded by other black people
>> for the usage of the word n*****, then I will take it seriously.
Smokie's post above suggests use within black communities is far from universally accepted. Indeed it may well be limited to rapping 'yoof' etc.
And just because there's permission to use it within a group that doesn't make universal usage less unacceptable. As an analogy you might be OK about some long standing mate meeting you with a greeting along lines of 'Hiya y'old [insert profanity of choice] how ya doing'.
That doesn't make it aceptable for me to call you the same profanity.
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>>
>> And just because there's permission to use it within a group that doesn't make universal
>> usage less unacceptable.
>>
Sorry Brompt, but no one group of people can claim copyright to a particular word and exclude everyone else from using it. To suggest they can is taking political correctness to the level that made it a comedian's joke in the first place.
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>> Sorry Brompt, but no one group of people can claim copyright to a particular word
>> and exclude everyone else from using it. To suggest they can is taking political correctness
>> to the level that made it a comedian's joke in the first place.
The word is itself offensive, like the c word or B u&&er. For that reason it's not used in conversation. in the media etc,
I was trying to make the analogy between familiar/jocular use of those words between friends and 'permissive' use of N word between those to whom it refers.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 11 May 14 at 13:20
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>>The word is itself offensive
I do not agree.
If the word itself was offensive, it would be offensive whoever used it and how ever they used it. That is not the case.
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>> I do not agree.
>>
>> If the word itself was offensive, it would be offensive whoever used it and how
>> ever they used it. That is not the case.
Try as I might I cannot see how it being 'commandeered' by a small subset of the group to whom it refers removes the offence. The bus driver in Brixton is in no position to influence its use by US rappers.
How do you deal with my earlier analogy of an old friend who greets you by calling you some profane name in jest?
Does that mean c- nut is no longer offensive?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 12 May 14 at 07:20
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>> How do you deal with my earlier analogy of an old friend who greets you by calling you some profane name in jest?
>>
>> Does that mean c- nut is no longer offensive?
As I said in an earlier post, words are not offensive, it is the way they are used that is...
How long before the word ginger is banned?
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>> How long before the word ginger is banned?
>>
Ever noticed it's an anagram of..................the word Clarkson is alleged to have said.
As so brilliantly pointed out by Tim Minchin in his song "Only a ginger can call another ginger ginger".
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The Sun Has Got His Hat On is the tune I have for the wakeup alarm on my phone.
I'll have to replace it with some Gangsta Rap I suppose.
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>>We're now into the realms of lunacy
It is enough to make one weep.
How are these people allowed to keep their jobs? They should be pilloried in the media as much, if not more, than when someone actually does the "offending" thing.
And as for the small-minded sanctimonious a*** that complained, I wish he;d be forced out into the public eye to explain why he made such a complaint. I suspect he saw a bandwagon galloping passed.
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"And as for the small-minded sanctimonious a*** that complained, I wish …………."
Please, please …………. it might be Brompto!
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Bromp is sometimes / often / always wrong. [delete as appropriate]
But he doesn't hide behind stuff, he stands up and gets counted.
I still think he's wrong mostly, but he's only wrong, not offensive. And I'm trying to help him improve.
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>Bromp is sometimes / often / always wrong. [delete as appropriate]
>But he doesn't hide behind stuff, he stands up and gets counted.
Absolutely, he'll always fight his corner and I enjoy ribbing him.
Best of luck with the improvement effort - old dogs as the saying goes ;-)
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Maybe Bromp is improving you..
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>> "And as for the small-minded sanctimonious a*** that complained, I wish …………."
>>
>> Please, please …………. it might be Brompto!
I suspect, like most of these things, there's more than meets the eye but as reported it looks absurd.
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>> And as for the small-minded sanctimonious a*** that complained, I wish he;d be forced out
>> into the public eye to explain why he made such a complaint. I suspect he
>> saw a bandwagon galloping passed.
>>
If you were employed in public service in today's Britain you'd see this sort of thing daily. It's now a norm.
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Goodness. I do hope the BBC aren't playing Elvis Costello's Oliver's Army anywhere then, and never have.
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It's quite a reasonable view that no mistake was made, a harmless old archive recording of a silly song was quite rightly played.
What is really moronic is wanting to censor these things. Some sort of health warning can be broadcast first so that the easily offended can switch off.
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>> It's quite a reasonable view that no mistake was made, a harmless old archive recording
>> of a silly song was quite rightly played.
>>
>> What is really moronic is wanting to censor these things. Some sort of health warning
>> can be broadcast first so that the easily offended can switch off.
I think I agree about playing with a warning - historical context and all that.
Also still think there is more to the 'sacking' than meets the eye but cannot finger what it is on facts published.
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There are large numbers of words capable of being offensive if used in a derogatory or pejorative way.
I won't give examples here, as I'm sure you all know them.
The same words, used with affection, are not.
I well remember the standard greeting between a couple of labourers in a factory I worked in many years ago - "Ey-up y'owd bogger".
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>> I well remember the standard greeting between a couple of labourers in a factory I
>> worked in many years ago - "Ey-up y'owd bogger".
Roger, that's one of the words I had in mind. In the north, Yorkshire particularly, it's used consensually as a term of friendship or affection. Goes back long time too, a great Uncle born before 1900 and who was a coal miner, used to shock his sister's middle class pretension by using it. James Herriot mentions it in his account of pre-war veterinary practice in the Dales. In his home town, Aberdeen though it was regarded as grossly offensive.
It's a reasonable analogy for N but the C word is a closer comparison.
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I think I will have to stop reading this thread altogether. I'm getting more and more exasperated the longer it goes on and trying to explain why is impossible because of the swear filter Grrr.
>>words are not offensive, it is the way they are used that is...<<
I agree so why are we all pussyfooting around when posting with N*****, N Word, C Word etc?
How long before 'N word' becomes offensive to say?
How will we describe it then?
Pat
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PAt,
It wouldn't be so bad if the swear filter behaved consistently and simply replaced the offending word with asterisks as it does that for a single offence. If however it detects multiple attempts at naughty words it excises the whole paragraph.
Took three attempts to make point about use of assorted profane greetings between friends!!!
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>> If however it detects multiple attempts at naughty words it excises the whole paragraph.
Wrong.
If a really naughty word is used, the whole sentence/paragraph gets nuked.
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>> Wrong.
>>
>> If a really naughty word is used, the whole sentence/paragraph gets nuked.
OK, I did't realise there was league table of bad words.
So I can say bu**er but if I use the alternative spelling of King Canute's name I get nukes?
Got it now!!
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Guidance needed....can I still call a spade a spade?
Pat
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>> Guidance needed....can I still call a spade a spade?
>>
>> Pat
>>
Only if it's plural and prefaced by the words "Ace of"
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>> Guidance needed....can I still call a spade a spade?
Unless it's a b***** shovel.
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Anyone know what 'dinge' means? Apparently a racial term, but for whom? Even I have a few gaps in my understanding. The word was used by the drag queens I worked with all those years ago, just round the corner from Whitehall: 'Ooh, I like a dinge dear!' But I never got a clear definition out of them.
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Google says:
1. dinge. Mildly pejorative term for an African-American.
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>> Google says:
Thank you FMR. The reason we hear it so seldom is doubtless that it is only mildly pejorative.
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Polari expression perhaps?
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>> Polari expression perhaps?
I don't think so. They did speak Parlare (from Italian, = 'to speak') quite a lot though.
It's only spelt Polari because some prominent homosexual was ignorant and couldn't spell.
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>>
>> >> Google says:
>>
>> Thank you FMR. The reason we hear it so seldom is doubtless that it is
>> only mildly pejorative.
I bet it's not MILDLY pejorative these days. Dinge=dingy=darkish=RACIST.
Headlines in the Guardian, without doubt.
(Should I delete this post in case Plod, aka Thought Police, comes calling?)
Last edited by: Roger. on Tue 13 May 14 at 16:09
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>> Also still think there is more to the 'sacking' than meets the eye but cannot
>> finger what it is on facts published.
>>
I think the word "veteran" can usually be read as "looking for an excuse to get rid of".
Like that racing commentator quite recently.
"Legend" and "much-loved" usually have a sting in the tail.
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Tue 13 May 14 at 08:54
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>> I think the word "veteran" can usually be read as "looking for an excuse to
>> get rid of".
>>
>> Like that racing commentator quite recently.
>>
>> "Legend" and "much-loved" usually have a sting in the tail.
I was thinking along those lines too. There's an echo of same thing in Mark's comments on long service awards.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 May 14 at 08:58
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"Legend" and "much-loved" usually have a sting in the tail."
Another one is "moved to a strategic role". It generally means 'shunted into a side-line where he's out of the way'.He can then be got rid of in the next round of cuts.
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The C/Ex of the the Premier League has been found using sexist language about female colleagues in private emails. He has apologised but clamour for action is growing - at least according to articles in the Guardian.
www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/12/richard-scudamore-sexist-remarks-row
Pretty silly to write such stuff at all and even sillier not to make sure his private email was not accessible to a temp PA.
Should he fall on his sword too?
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I think he needs firing for gross stupidity, never mind his views.
But "clamour for action" ALWAYS grows. Whatever the rights, wrongs or a reasonable level of reaction are. The media leads a group of baying hounds, like always about everything.
Mind you, I doubt the PA will be working again any time soon, and she certainly wouldn't be working for me.
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Clarkson apologises... - Dog
