1 Writer is American (an English muffin is only called that in the USA)
2 'Examples' all show how not to write communications
Wouldn't be at all supervised if other languages do similar.
|
"Wouldn't be at all supervised if other languages do similar." (Supervised? Surprised?)
Possibly - I don't know - but English has a very big vocabulary compared with other languages, and it seems to me that the bigger the vocabulary the greater the chance of overlapping spellings and so on.
English also draws and has drawn on many other languages for its words, hence the complications of English spelling and the increased chances of confusion.
English, it is reckoned, has at least 250,000 words in general use, possibly twice as many as in any other language, though it is notoriously hard to measure. (What counts as a "word"?)
|
"Wouldn't be at all supervised if other languages do similar." (Supervised? Surprised?)
Surprised, mea culpa, although I blame my spell checker...
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Fri 18 Apr 14 at 11:11
|
>>English has a very big vocabulary compared with other languages
I would be interested to know chapter and verse for that. I used to have a professional interest, showing how the English text for promotional print use would, in the same font, need more space in French and German. I could demonstrate this with the sleeve notes of classical LP records, often multilingual to rationalise production costs.
This is not to say that you might not be correct if other application are included, for example science.
|
Agreed. I have always noticed the difference in the number of words, in various European languages to convey "Not suitable for children under 3; contains small parts which may cause a choking hazard", for example. English is always fewest words. The Germans used to have this one, allegedly:- Donau-dampfschiffahrts-elektrizitäten-haupt-betriebswerk-bau-unterbe
amten-gesellschaft,
meant " 'Association of sub-ordinate officials of the head office management of the Danube steamboat electrical services." I understand it may have been created, for publicity like that long Welsh railway station - Llanfair PG, for short
|
|
The number of words in the English language is : 1,025,109. This is the estimate by the Global Language Monitor for January 1, 2014.
|
>> may have been created, for publicity like that long Welsh railway station - Llanfair PG, for short
See bottom of p 18 in current Private Eye Meldrew... heh heh
|
|
Weird - Just come back from Llanfair PG and was just having a giggle over page 18 in the Eye...small world !
|
Ambo, I think you're confusing two different things. One is the size of vocabulary of a language (i.e. the number of words available to users), the other is economy or otherwise of expression.
English is typically concise - or it can be, when it has to be.
I absolutely agree that CD/LP notes and other translations of instructions, for example, are almost invariably shorter in English.
There is another reason for that, though, which is spelling. For example, much the same sound is represented in English as "sh", but in German by one extra letter: "sch". As another example, Polish has clusters of consonants which do not happen in English. On the other hand, we do have silent letters, although an average piece of writing (whatever that is) would not include many.
|
>> an average piece of writing (whatever that is) would not include many.
Yup. Hard to squeeze ptarmigan, psephologist and psychomotor into a single short sentence.
:o}
|
|
Ah, a silent 'P' as in swimming pool...
|
I've read somewhere that although English is one of the easiest languages to learn badly, it is almost impossible for a foreigner ever to learn it well enough to pass as English. This was said to be why virtually all German spies were betrayed by their accents.
My sister in law, who was born and educated in the UK at a public school, and speaks apparently flawless English, was none the less identified as "German" within minutes of talking to a Skegness landlady, on account of her father's central European origins.
Some hope then for a spy landing from a submarine on the East coast.
|
You would imagine anyway, that it might have been easier to conceal a 'foreign' accent at a time when fewer people travelled widely and there were also fewer opportunities to hear accents on television and radio etc.
For example, a German might, in the south of England perhaps, have successfully concealed his accent by claiming to be Scottish or something. Whereas now we are all used to hearing most of the major regional and indeed national variations in speech patterns as a result of electronic media and are possibly better placed to distinguish the false from the genuine.
But if I had been a German spy in WW2 I'd have pretended to be Dutch or Polish.
That would have fooled them Captain Mainwaring...
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Sun 20 Apr 14 at 18:35
|
The big distinguishing feature about languages is their music, by which I mean the intonation (rise and fall of the pitch of the voice) and the rhythm (the distribution of stresses and the relative length of syllables).
Often it's possible to partially overhear a conversation in a foreign language and, without catching individual words, to know which language is being spoken.
"But if I had been a German spy in WW2 I'd have pretended to be Dutch or Polish."
To my ear Dutch does sound fairly similar to German (an impression reinforced by my recent visit to Amsterdam), but Polish seems a lot different from either (an impression reinforced by listening to my other half Skyping her family in Wrocław for an hour yesterday morning).
|
If you listen to the Frisian Dialect without concentrating too much on the words it sounds pretty close to English in its intonations and overall sound. Not surprising of course because that's where the Angles came from.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRXoCixqyk8
|
"Not surprising of course because that's where the Angles came from."
As we are in pedant mode, CGN, allow me to say that your linguistic location is correct (Old Frisian being extremely close to Anglo-Saxon), but your geographical location is not.
Frisia is/was located on the western, North-Sea coastal areas of what is now the Netherlands, whereas the Angles came from the south-eastern part of the Jutland peninsula and the Saxons from the south-western. The latter area does border on Frisia and it's probably fair to say that all three areas spoke dialects that were very similar.
When the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain they brought with them a number of different dialects (they were after all a collection of tribes rather than one nation) and that persisted for some time. Mercian and Northumbrian were the two Angle dialects and Kentish and West Saxon the two Saxon dialects.
After Alfred the Great's unification of England (late 9th century), West Saxon became the dominant form of what had become known as Old English. However, traces of the other dialects persisted until after the Norman invasion.
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Mon 21 Apr 14 at 19:43
|
|
Thanks for the clarification. No doubt the Frisians and the English share a a common ancestry.,
|
|
Can't stand Heffer but agree with him absolutely on this. It sometimes seems that no one under the age of 50 can read or write, but more seriously that no one working in the media these days has even the skimpiest general culture. All the comics are littered with errors and howlers, but the tabloids offend least because their discourse is simpler to start with.
|
Minor thread drift re pronunciation What are theses EGGZITS that people rush for. according the Beeb? I thought they were ECKSITS!
Many people seem to get muddled between lose and loose, borrow and lend and lots of people want to compare two things to see which is the best! Clarkson and team for three!
|
My pet hate is "the relatives have been told".
Told what? To get out with their muddy boots on, to not be so annoying?
The relatives have been INFORMED !!!
|
>>My pet hate is "the relatives have been told".<<
One of mine, too. Mainly because it's completely unnecessary. Wouldn't they be told or informed or whatever?
Just another example of today's bone lazy journalism.
|
|
Another grump! Somebody is found dead in the street and is "Identified locally as Mr J Snook. No - he is identified full stop.
|
>> Another grump! Somebody is found dead in the street and is "Identified locally as Mr
>> J Snook. No - he is identified full stop.
I was Meldrewing myself this morning when the news said that the boy who stabbed a teacher could not be identified, as if nobody knows who he is.
Did they mean that he could not be named?
|
"Identified locally as Mr J Snook
That's news-speak for "we know who he is but it hasn't been officially confirmed"
|
>> My pet hate is "the relatives have been told".
>>
>> Told what? To get out with their muddy boots on, to not be so annoying?
>>
>> The relatives have been INFORMED !!!
That grates for me too. I'm almost sure the standard usage was 'informed' until the last few years.
I wonder whether BBC usage has changed or whether there's agreement to read such things from an MoD news release and MOD have changed how they write it.
|
|
I think it's a BBC thing, not sure about press releases, but from what I remember we use neither 'internally'. Next of kin have been notified, I think is the phrase. Although all are pretty clear as to what they mean.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 5 May 14 at 15:40
|
>> My pet hate is "the relatives have been told".
My current hate, heard several times on traffic bulletins this afternoon, but noticed a couple of times last week
'diversions are in'
I assume they are 'in place', as they are surely never going to be 'in fashion'
|
|
Even Radio 4 (PM and Today) have taken to using "at the top of the show"....dreadful. "I'm liking it" .... misplaced "myself" misused "literally"...arrrrgh...
|
>> Even Radio 4 (PM and Today) have taken to using "at the top of the
>> show"....dreadful. "I'm liking it" .... misplaced "myself" misused "literally"...arrrrgh...
Lost the battle on the last one - this is where I think a dictionary would be better regarded as a rule book than a record of urrent usage - in this case, there is no ready substitute, and there are plenty of other ways of adding emphasis.
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10240917/Uproar-as-OED-includes-erroneous-use-of-literally.html
|
"It's a big ask". Aaarrggghhh!!!!
What? Like 6" taller than all the other asks?
|
Many people seem to get muddled between lose and loose, borrow and lend and lots of people want to compare two things to see which is the best! Clarkson and team for three!
In the written word, this happens all the time, but there is a reason, over reliance on spell checkers. And when the article has traversed one, the modern writer thinks, 'that's it, time to publish'. The old school advice was re-read 24 hours later, which of course in this modern world, no time exists to do this. Changing font works quite well and enables you to see the work through new eyes. I've suggested this to others and it works there too.
Oddly for someone who admits their spelling is atrocious, I'm quite good at proof-reading.
|
Oddly for someone who admits their spelling is atrocious, I'm quite good at proof-reading.
Good, perhaps, but not perfect:
The old school advice was re-read 24 hours later, which of course in this modern world, no time exists to do this.
};---)
|
Count the spelling mistakes in this listing, it's not even a maisonette ffs, I should know - it's my sisters gaff.
www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-45512843.html
|
Most linguistic idiosyncrasies don't especially worry me. They are for the most part just part of the rich tapestry.
However, for reasons I simply can't explain, I get quite anxious about the misuse of 'sat' and 'sitting'.
Even the picturesque Fiona Bruce recently referred to an object on the Antiques Roadshow as having been 'sat' in in an attic for years.
No dear, it had been 'sitting'.
People refer to having been 'sat' in traffic when they were in fact 'sitting'. They may well have sat down before they found themselves sitting there but once they had done that they were of course then seated.
It's not hard and most of them have been practising English since they were infants and so should be able to cope with something as brutally simple as describing this.
There, better now.
;-)
|
I too noticed the Antiques Roadshow faux pas, and wanted to rant at someone.
When I hear "sat" misused it always sounds to me like someone being unceremoniously dumped in a corner and told to wait.
One might be "seated" by the courteous theatre manager, but "sat" by Miss Trunchbull under threat of being roasted alive if one dared so much as blink.
|
>> Even the picturesque Fiona Bruce recently referred to an object on the Antiques Roadshow as
>> having been 'sat' in in an attic for years.
>>
>> No dear, it had been 'sitting'.
>>
Pedant alert.
It had quite simply 'been in the attic'. It had neither been 'sitting', nor 'sat'.
It is an inanimate object.
Granny may have been sitting in the attic for years, but not a painting.
|
I suspect that "sat" was inaccurate, but I think was not grammatically incorrect. Surely it had been sat there by somebody and was no longer there. It is assigning a period of time to the state of "sat" that was inappropriate.
It seems grammatically incorrect to assign a period of continuous time to a past and complete action.
|
What are these texties (that sound suspiciously like the contents of my scrotum) I keep hearing about?
|
|
Demotic usages like 'sat' are very often grammatically incorrect, but no one gives a tuppenny damn because they understand what is meant. Inanimate objects may not 'sit' or 'stand' in one place or another, but it is very common to say they are sitting or standing somewhere and that can't be called incorrect. It's just demotic speech.
|
I think there's a regional/dialect aspect to sat or sitting.
Same certainly goes for lend/borrow. Professional people from South Yorkshire will ask for a lend of your strimmer!!
|
|
Having always owned a decent strimmer I was very reluctant to let it out of my sight but asking for a lend of it was a sure no no.
|
|
I do that sometimes, asking for a lend of something. Never found anyone confused by it.
|
>> I do that sometimes, asking for a lend of something. Never found anyone confused by
>> it.
>>
I would not be confused, but I would (inwardly) shudder!
|
>> Inanimate objects may not 'sit' or 'stand' in
>> one place or another,
>>
A hat stand does.
|
|
Depends where it's sat. Presumably.
|
|
Or stood....(another one)
|
>> It sometimes seems that no
>> one under the age of 50 can read or write
My 24 year old daughter has just started out as a translator (Finnish and Swedish to English) and is a grammar/spelling pedant.
So am I, and so is my mother. We just can't help it.
|
>> >> We just can't help it.
>>
You mean you can't help it? I doubt whether it is really the only thing you can't help ? :)
|
|
Traffic reports about a 'shed load' always make me think of a shedload of what.
|
All this reminds me of the Johnson quote.
As Samuel Johnson paused to rest on a London park bench one hot summer's day, his profusely sweating bulk caused a young woman sitting next to him to accuse him of smelling. “No, Madam,” he replied. “You smell, I stink.”
|
I'm always amused by footballer speak. Using the plural instead of the singular is a particular feature. Your Arsenals, Tottenhams and Chelseas etc.
p.s note to mods
Now you have sorted out Scunthorpe can you please do the same for Arsenal.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 May 14 at 02:00
|
|
Cough Cough....I'll try to sort it.
|
Stop tempting me.
So far I have avoided bursting into a cascade of menstruation-based Jamaican traditional oaths.
|
|
Another aspect of Beeb life that riles me is the weather forecasters especially the morning one the warm frontage. They are apparently people with science degrees and yet we get drivel like "Spits and Spots" of rain, "Conveyor Belts" of cloud and "If you are the North West today high pressure will be on offer" no it won't! If you are there you are stuck with it!
|
>> Another aspect of Beeb life that riles me is the weather forecasters especially the morning
>> one the warm frontage. They are apparently people with science degrees and yet we get
>> drivel like "Spits and Spots" of rain, "Conveyor Belts" of cloud and "If you are
>> the North West today high pressure will be on offer" no it won't! If you
>> are there you are stuck with it!
Spits and spots of rain or conveyor belts of cloud are description or simile and OK in an appeal to those without science or any other degree.
Agree about pressure though. High or low it's one of a number of conditions/factors affecting the weather, not something you can take or leave.
|
>> and OK in an appeal to those without science or any other degree.
And presumably your degree is in Condescension and Patronisation?
:-)
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 5 May 14 at 21:19
|
>> >> and OK in an appeal to those without science or any other degree.
>>
>> And presumably your degree is in Condescension and Patronisation?
>>
>> :-)
>>
Smiley noted but TV presenters, whatever their academic subject, need to concentrate in main on effect and and audience that's not necessarily au fait with subject intricacies.
Can you remember O level geography about Atlantic weather systems?
|
>>Can you remember O level geography about Atlantic weather systems?
Yes, because I liked Geography. I particularly liked clouds, waves and ox-bow lakes.
Biology, on the other hand, entirely escapes me, I cannot remember a single thing. Didn't like the teachers, didn't like the subject, nothing ever went in.
|
Ox-bow lakes, those were the days.
Fill in the names of the rivers of the eastern Pennine watershed -
S
U
N
W
A
C
D
Now where are my Lakeland pencils?
|
>> Ox-bow lakes, those were the days.
>>
>> Fill in the names of the rivers of the eastern Pennine watershed -
>>
>> S
>> U
>> N
>> W
>> A
>> C
>> D
Off top of my head and without recourse to external sources
Swale
Ure
Nidd
Wharfe
Aire
Calder
Don
Couldn't recall the link of the valleys/towns to their products (eg worsted, heavy etc) though
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 5 May 14 at 22:11
|
>Smiley noted but TV presenters, whatever their academic subject, need to concentrate in
>main on effect and and audience that's not necessarily au fait with subject intricacies.
You do talk some patronising carp Bromp. If it's all presentation why not get Jeremy Kyle to present the weather?
The BBC Charter states "The BBC’s main object is the promotion of its Public Purposes."
One of those public purposes is "promoting education and learning".
How exactly does dumbing down weather forecasts to "Spits and spots of rain or conveyor belts of cloud.." promote education and learning?
|
So what is the technical term for spits and spots of rain?
The BBC's public purposes don't look very Reithian to me, more a Birtian waffle fest.
1. Sustaining citizenship and civil society
2. Promoting education and learning
3. Stimulating creativity and cultural excellence
4. Representing the UK, its nations, regions and communities
5. Bringing the UK to the world and the world to the UK
6. In promoting its other purposes, helping to deliver to the public the benefit of emerging communications technologies and services and, in addition, taking a leading role in the switchover to digital television.
I preferred "inform, educate, and entertain". At least it was comprehensible and memorable.
The spits and spots are the inform part:)
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 5 May 14 at 22:27
|
|
............and in receipt of quite substantial E.U. funding as well as the TV tax. ;-)
|
>So what is the technical term for spits and spots of rain?
There isn't one because the technology needed to predict "spits and spots" with any accuracy doesn't exist.
Last edited by: Kevin on Mon 5 May 14 at 22:58
|
|
I know you just fixed "Arsenal", but I think "Arse" has been working all along.
|
Mmmm, I know Scunthorpe works. But you know what that means also works?
It may be the only swear filter I've ever met that didn't filter that word.
|
I, myself loathe "I, myself"!
"Me and the wife" . Aaaargh!
|
>> It may be the only swear filter I've ever met that didn't filter that word.
Thanks for pointing that out. I had previously tuned the filter to remove that word but still allowed the North Lincolnshire town. Just testing it however showed something has failed since I last sorted it out.
edit - hopefully sorted it out again.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 6 May 14 at 01:39
|
As you say, seems to be fine now.
Awfully tempting to test it though.....
|
|
I have just extensively tested it in the mods tea room. No doubt you'll still wanna try though.
|
|
Trouble is, its no fun when you know how to beat it.
|
Geezer who hosts the lunchtime prog on BBC Radio Quornwall used to use the a*** word.
I told im you can't use that word on air mister - ass is okay though.
He disagreed with I but - I notice he doesn't use it anymore :)
|
Pedant Alert - Slidingpillar
