Anyone been through this?
Eldest has just paid a deposit on a private student house rental to be shared between her and 3 others for the year Sept '14 on.
Had sight of the guarantor form last night that all parents are expected to sign and not at all keen for self and Mrs F to put our names to the terms contained.
Landlord wants each parent to be jointly and severally liable for all 4 student's payments and any damage caused by any of them.
The total gross liability for rents amounts to some £16,000 and damage to the house perhaps £250,000 if an act by one of them caused an uninsured total loss.
We have only met the other students briefly and have never met their parents so are very very reluctant to become tied to them in this way for an 11mth period.
Any thoughts?
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Pro-rata responsibility, perhaps. Anything else - NO. Landlord should have insurance re serious damage - daytime TV is full of Landlord Insurance offers.
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I wouldn't sign that even if somebody had a gun to my head !!!
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First thought: check the cost of decent (or as decent as they come) halls or university-owned flats instead. Completely avoids shark landlords and the accomodation tends to be of a better standard too.
In my neck of the woods, staying on campus works out cheaper than private rental, all things taken into account.
Under no circumstances would I accept any liability for the (in)actions of others!
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Been through it.
Acted as guarantor to oldest son sharing flat with three others 15 years ago.
Loss limited to the outstanding rent - in case he did a runner £5,000.. and any excess on insurance if a claim maximum iirc £2500. And guarantor to HIS losses only. Period.
Uninsured losses to £250,000? They'll burn it down and stuff you..
Last edited by: madf on Thu 3 Apr 14 at 16:41
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Some of these modern buy-to-let landlords are a bit cheeky really, trying to get rich on a small house full of impecunious students.
The Notting Hill of my youth was a very mixed but bohemian area with much cheap rented property, occupied by student types, yes, but much more by recently-arrived Caribbean immigrants, by borderline underworld types - there were many shebeens and bordellos, tarts on the street and so on - and by a few prewar relics in the form of respectable workers.
Most of the property was owned by the Church Commission, and leased on long leases to sort of gangster landlords who sub-leased them to tenants. They weren't remotely fussy about the state of the houses and flats which tended to be poor or very poor. Nor would they bother to mend the roof for you. Someone signed a lease and then, provided the rent, peanuts by today's standards, turned up on time, you were left in peace. Everyone was happy.
Those landlords could get a bit abrupt if they wanted you to leave and you cited the terms of the lease. It didn't happen all that much but people could get beaten up and cut about.
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Run run run, as far as I know this is not normal. At most landlords will ask to see proof of income from the student. This only happens if a person has no proof of income or that person has bad credit history.
A friend of mine asked me to sign of one these, I point blank refused.
The landlord next door asked one of the chavs that moved in parents to act as a guarantor, she did but it ended up with the police been involved him being evicted etc.
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>> The landlord next door asked one of the chavs that moved in parents to act
>> as a guarantor, she did but it ended up with the police been involved him
>> being evicted etc.
Eviction is a civil matter. He/she must have done something else if the police were involved.
Of course the bailiffs/sheriffs may have asked the police to stand by if they thought there was going to be some criminal activity.
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Duncan, does stealing another tenants laptop count as good enough reason to be evicted? Not to mention making the other tenants, ours, and the house on the side life a complete misery for the past few months.
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Find out if the other parents are prepared to sign.
If not, then the four pairs of you together may be able to get it changed, or get your deposits back.
However, I'd rather walk away from my deposit than sign that agreement. Was she told that guarantors would be required before paying the deposit?
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www.studentbeans.com/student101/a/housing-02/student-guide-to-tenancy-agreements166.html
Haven't read it but might be useful. Failing this, try your local CAB. I'm sure they'll offer free advice.
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I agree; it's far more onerous than anything I'd be happy signing. Guaranteeing your daughter's share of the rent is one thing, but the whole house! I guess it's because the landlord (or agent) is just using a standard tenancy agreement which they're all party to rather than renting to each student by the room?
I also think it's the landlords responsibility to have adequate insurance cover for the building itself; certainly that's the approach I take and just factor the premium into the rent. It's all very well trying to push this down to the tenant, but the chances of recovery, even with a guarantor, are pretty low I'd have thought. I'd rather have control over the level of cover. It does rather smack, as AC says, of a landlord not treating it as a proper business - wanting the benefits without the risks...
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Initially I had very strong feelings about doing this.
We found that virtually every landlord was doing it in the 2 university towns applicable to our two sprogs.
Overall, we signed for maybe 5 different houses over a 6 - 7 year period.
We had no problems. Only once when one student (not ours) left mid-year was there a need for the existing tenants to quickly find a replacement - which they did.
So, in theory not at all desirable, but in practice we had little choice.
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I went guarantor for youngest stepson for his rented accommodation for two years in Nottingham. But the contract was run of the mill and nothing to alarmed at (certainly not responsible for the other two friends!). And I paid the rent instead of contributing to his living costs - so rent would be paid anyway.
From this contract I would be thinking of running away. No way would I sign it.
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NEVER guarantee anyone else's financial liabilities.
When I was in the finance business, I saw many instance of grief due to this- even between parents, offspring and siblings.
The guarantors never expected to, or would, pay up if required.
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What would the legal position be if your offspring ' forged' the signatures?
Since they have no assets there would be little point in them being pursued. You could always bail them out for a reasonable amount to prevent bad credit history and maintain your assets intact if they were were to become liable for a riduculous large amount.
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Thoughts much appreciated. I've also been doing some reading on the student's own forums my daughter has linked me to.
The overall feeling is that we will refuse this initial guarantor contract wording. However this type of guarantor liability appears to be quite common in the student let world. Some parents refuse preventing their kids being in the house and company of their choice, some like Dulwich take a pragmatic view so go with it... and quite a few it seems just glance at the contract and never realise the extent of liability they are signing for.
Interestingly Sherlock hints at an option taken by a surprising amount of students... to give their parents correct details but forge their signature.... then as long as the parents check out it never comes to light as long as there is no need for the landlord to initiate the guarantor process.
For me why this doesn't sit well, apart from potentially taking on liability for others (in truth strangers to us), is that the monthly rent for the place is about £750 greater than a private let to a single family. So the landlord is already gaining a fair buffer each and every month that he ought to offset against the possibility of a student walking away mid term. Risk and reward is always a balance but it seems in these cases landlords want reward without risk.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 3 Apr 14 at 22:16
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I think if you were in the game of renting to students you would soon be demanding guarantees from anyone you could......
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I sort of know what you mean but we have been landlords within the past 4yrs and after the experience of arrogant supposedly respectable professional in work middle class couples I'd happily take a chance with students on double rent!
In fact we looked quite seriously into buying a small property to finish off daughter 1's uni years and then continue to let to students until we decided to sell.... it was only that we are quite busy currently which made us decided not to take it to the next stage of making an economic case for the family to give it a go.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 3 Apr 14 at 22:46
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I kept a 'student let' house on for about 4 years after daughter finished uni. No problems with the tenants and rent, using a professional letting/management agency. I only sold after my network of trusted 'local traders' started to disintegrate to a point where even a simple problem required a 200 mile round trip. I even sold it on with sitting tenants to the letting agents, the easiest most pain free property transaction I have ever encountered.
Fewer problems than with the replacement (local) buy to let flat with vetted employed professionals as tenants.
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Fri 4 Apr 14 at 07:53
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"Some parents refuse preventing their kids being in the house and company of their choice, some like Dulwich take a pragmatic view so go with it... "
I would like to add.....
When your nearest and dearest sprogs are 200+ miles away and SWMBO worries about what they are eating etc. etc. it's extremely difficult to say no to:
"Dad, I'm in my second year now and have left halls of residence. I've found a house to share with 4 mates ... all you need to do is sign the form"
If we had said NO I don't think my offspring would have ever spoken to me again - perhaps an advantage for some parents but not for us.
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>>>"Dad, I'm in my second year now and have left halls of residence. I've found a house to share with 4 mates ... all you need to do is sign the form"
Yes that's a significant factor and one that is in the mix of thoughts we have. She has chosen 3 others she gets on with and believes are sound so from her perspective we would be somewhat harsh if we prevented that.
We are the first parents to see the guarantor contract and it will be interesting to see how the other three sets of parents react once they read it through over the next few days. In fact they may end up deflecting the bad guys tag from us as some of them may have reason to oppose this even more strongly than us so it could fall apart even if we don't make a stand.
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I wouldn't touch that contract. Surely you can buy insurance against it though.
That said, of course your children are liable for that £250,000 in the event of an uninsured total loss anyway. And for all that they may have no cash today, a court would give an attachment to earnings which would require them to pay it off in due course.
Probably cheaper to buy a 1-bed flat for her...
Suggestion. All four parents pay the up-front rent into a joint bank account. That protects the rent element of the joint-and-several liability. It's only a cashflow penalty for you, and it protects against any of the others doing a runner.
Finally, rather than asking the University what is normal, start a campaign and make landlords realise that they will not be having that sort of contract signed by any student in the entire city.
Finally (honest!), what do students with no parents do?
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 4 Apr 14 at 10:35
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>>what do students with no parents do?
Speaking personally; rent a less desirable place with less desirable people, work two jobs and ultimately pee Barclays off anyway.
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Incisive comments Mapmaker.
You are quite right about the student's ultimate liability if guarantors are forgotten about for a moment. Their rental contract would be for the house as a whole with them being jointly and severally liable so it is possible as you say for them to be taken to court if one of their friends defaults and disappears. However I understand student let landlords rarely do this as it's more trouble than it's worth given, as I mention above, the landlord is already creating a buffer of £750/mth over and above the rental rate to a single family.
The only way out of this for them is to go into a shared house let by the room which they don't want to do as then the landlord can choose any new person if one goes away.
One of our options is to ask the landlord for a guarantor contract that limits liability to losses/damage by our daughter, apparently some landlords agree to this. However it seems it is not totally clear cut in that courts may decide a guarantor of a party to a joint and several tenancy may be bound by the joint and several nature of that initial agreement regardless of any wording in the guarantor's contract that attempts to restrict it.
To be totally safe this restricted guarantor's contract needs to be in the form of a witnessed deed drawn up by solicitors which is extra cost and complication most would seek to avoid.
Paying the landlord the whole years rent up front, similar to your bank account idea, is a way to remove the guarantor issue. We would consider this with the right contract drawn up to protect us but doubt the other parents would.
The Uni do act as a letting agent for many houses but not this particular one. I have been trying to phone them for two days to get an idea what they do with their own properties... no response... long Easter break perhaps!
On your last point there are a variety of reasons students have no parents or parental support and from the student forums it seems they might ask the parent of a friend, forge the guarantor form, rent a room from a dodgy landlord who is happy to let admin slip or even approach the Uni to be allowed to stay on at campus accommodation in yrs 2 & 3 due to their circumstances.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 4 Apr 14 at 11:02
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>One of our options is to ask the landlord for a guarantor contract that limits liability to
>losses/damage by our daughter, apparently some landlords agree to this. However it seems it
>is not totally clear cut in that courts may decide a guarantor of a party to a joint and several >tenancy may be bound by the joint and several nature of that initial agreement regardless of
>any wording in the guarantor's contract that attempts to restrict it.
I am no lawyer, but I should be most surprised. In any event it would be very difficult to identify who had damaged the property. The whole point of a joint & several tenancy is exactly that. When you reach the end of the tenancy and the kitchen door has a hole in it from a party twelve months prior, and none of the students did it (or admits to it) what then?
I think the answer is insurance. Talk to a good broker and I cannot see that it would cost you more than a couple of hundred. (Which would be an outrageous sum as the possibility of a claim against it is as good as nil.)
And I wouldn't pay the landlord his rent up front; I would put it into a joint bank account and set up the direct debit, and require all four signatories to agree for the DD to be cancelled.
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As an aside although we never had trouble with the guarantor situation, there was never a time when the tenants didn't suffer a hit on their deposit.
Amongst the list of deductions we saw over the years were: iron shaped burn on carpet, full cleaning, broken door, lost keys and best of all - call out for a glued up front door lock.
Students - don't you just love them.
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My daughter did two years of house sharing, private landlords, while at university and another five years or so afterwards, also in Cambridge. I was never asked to stand guarantor.
Acting as guarantor for your daughter's liabilities is going to expose you to her joint and several liability anyway, and the easiest way round that is a financial limit (her share of the rent, say).
Expect to lose the deposit. Mine did more than once even though they left the houses in good order - the landlords just kept it for "cleaning" even though the houses were cleaner when they left than when they went in.
I think I'd be saying that the landlord either had to accept a fair agreement or my daughter would have to look elsewhere. And she should most definitely not put herself on the hook for uninsured losses to that extent.
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When stepson moved out of student halls (private now university owned) I asked about cleaning the place to make sure we got the £250 deposit back. He said nobody ever did... I didn't agree wit that.
When we helped him move from this place to the shared house we took cleaning products, the Dyson etc. to at least try to get some money back. His room was cleaned by his mum and I did the communal kitchen/dining area. Pretty bad, but could have been worse! The annoying thing was the others would benefit too....
Anyway we got the full £250 back in the end so worth a few hours effort. Never saw the deposit for the house he was in for 2 years but he was reluctant to chase the landlord and I imagine it was in a bit of a state! I'd have not cleaned that for £250 :-)
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>>And she should most definitely not put herself on the hook for uninsured losses to that extent.
Don't you do that anyway if you rent somewhere?
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Good question - but if I was responsible for buildings and contents insurance, I'd insure it. If I wasn't, I wouldn't indemnify the bloke who should be keeping it insured, but might not.
Depends on the detail, really. I suppose his insurance might exclude arson or wilful damage by the tenant, which you might be prepared to accept, within a limit that wouldn't ruin your life.
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Student shared house let - Parent as guarantor?? - Robin O'Reliant
