So they got it together and formed a set of ideas, some pretty big ones. I am not sure how they will get on but it adds to the political debate.
So, what do you lot think of what they are trying to do and indeed will they have any success?
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The thing I never get with Left Wing parties, is where they think all the money comes from.
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Ah, Ken Loaches baby, the guy who was commissioned to make a film for the charity "Save the children" then spent all their money on a film attacking them. Typical trendy left winger rebelling against a rich upbringing. Supporter of the PLO, and the IRA.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 1 Apr 14 at 18:52
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With luck they will poach enough votes from Labour to ensure they don't get another chance to bankrupt the country.
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>> Ah, Ken Loaches baby, the guy who was commissioned to make a film for the
>> charity "Save the children" then spent all their money on a film attacking them. Typical
>> trendy left winger rebelling against a rich upbringing. Supporter of the PLO, and the IRA.
>>
Loach is on record as a supporter of the boycott Israel campaign and has produced films viewing the Irish question from a Nationalist perspective. I've never been clear why the media suggest a middle class upbringing producing a socialist outlook is risible while travel in the opposite direction is heroic.
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I've never been clear why the
>> media suggest a middle class upbringing producing a socialist outlook is risible while travel in
>> the opposite direction is heroic.
Hmm that's a good point, I think it's because it's seen as a bit of a luxury the former have that the latter don't.
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>> The thing I never get with Left Wing parties, is where they think all the
>> money comes from.
>>
Banker's bonuses. It's going to pay for everything twice over.
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>> The thing I never get with Left Wing parties, is where they think all the
>> money comes from.
Left wing politics starts from perspective that the distribution of wealth/income/opportunity dictated by history and the free market is both exploitative and unfair. It then seeks to redress that unfairness by redistribution.
In democratic politics that is achieved by taxation and the removal of some financial privileges. In more extreme forms, which I in no way advocate, it comes about by revolution.
That's where the money comes from.
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>>That's where the money comes from.
Perhaps you better tell Labour that, they think it comes from borrowing.
Many moons ago I was a debt collector for Provident where lending the debtor in arrears the money to make the payments was seen as a result*.
I've always felt that a similar comparison to how left wing governments behave.
*[Mind you, the company had a morality that makes today's "Pay Day" lenders seem angelic by comparison].
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>> >>That's where the money comes from.
>>
>> Perhaps you better tell Labour that, they think it comes from borrowing.
Borrow to spend has been the UK pattern under governments of either persuasion for donkeys years. It's greatest expansion is at times of recession (what Nigel Lawson called a 'blip') when tax take falls and the gap has to be bridged. The deepest recession since the twenties, a worldwide banking crisis not something created by a UK miscalculation, emphasises the effect.
This chart shows annual net borrowing as % of GDP.
tinyurl.com/namux52
This one is total accumulated govt debt as percentage of GDP.
tinyurl.com/mex3v2k
In a rational world, where politics is about fact and argument, Labour would be on the offensive over the lie about the 'mess the last government left us'.
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>>Borrow to spend has been the UK pattern under governments...
This chart shows annual net borrowing as % of GDP...
During the period 2000-2010 I want to see the chart that shows the %age of GDP that was being created by imaginary money being spent in the economy on the back of personal and governmental borrowing rather than actual generated wealth.
The 'boom' of this period appears to have been created without similar productivity improvements which suggest to me Blair/Brown's economic miracle was the smoke/mirrors it turned out to be when the slate was called in after 2008.
The 'cost of living crisis' being touted by Labour at every turn is simply the snapping back of over-inflated paypackets that they pushed, with inflation being held at bay by the massive growth of Chinese productivity via their cheap labour/working standards (and I was a beneficiary of this with decent pay rises from 2004-2007... bog all since though).
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>> >>Borrow to spend has been the UK pattern under governments...
>> This chart shows annual net borrowing as % of GDP...
>>
>>
>> During the period 2000-2010 I want to see the chart that shows the %age of
>> GDP that was being created by imaginary money being spent in the economy on the
>> back of personal and governmental borrowing rather than actual generated wealth.
Some of the growth in period when 'boom/bust' was supposedly eliminated was of course down to personal borrowing. The basis for that was people's ability to access the apparent money tap on the wall of their rapidly appreciating house. Precedents are available back to the seventies, see Barber Boom, and more recently 83/4 to 88 or later. Osborne seems to be playing same card right now.
>> The 'boom' of this period appears to have been created without similar productivity improvements which
>> suggest to me Blair/Brown's economic miracle was the smoke/mirrors it turned out to be when
>> the slate was called in after 2008.
The slate was called because the false money in banking was called worldwide resulting in deepest depression since twenties. Given that US and other Western economies suffered same/worse than UK I'm struggling to see this a a UK/Labour party issue.
>> The 'cost of living crisis' being touted by Labour at every turn is simply the
>> snapping back of over-inflated paypackets that they pushed, with inflation being held at bay by
>> the massive growth of Chinese productivity via their cheap labour/working standards (and I was a
>> beneficiary of this with decent pay rises from 2004-2007... bog all since though).
Struggling with connections here. The falling real prices of (eg) Chinese white goods and Indian clothing distorted RPI/CPI and, both now and then, concealing very real inflation in essentials such as food, fuel etc.
Did you do as well as English GPs from the mid noughties deal which recognised pay was not enough to recruit/motivate/retain and also removed out of hours cover?
Calculation of my 'final salary' pension is an interesting insight into price index v pay. My salary for pension purposes is best of (a) what I was on when I left (b) best year in last four before leaving (to catch those who've lost temporary promotion or other allowances) or (c) best three year average over last 12 yrs of service - a backstop. Options (b) and (c) apply indexation at RPI/CPI to the final result.
My best result comes under limb (c) and is for 3 yrs ending 31 March 2006. After indexation that salary gives a result some 12% better than I'd get on pay at day I left.
Real inflation for food, rail fares, fuel and station parking are probably even worse.
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>>Given that US and other Western economies suffered same/worse than UK I'm struggling to see this a a UK/Labour party issue.
Australia dodged it - better governance? Entirely probable if there had been blue flags over Downing Street 1997-2010 a similar fiscal outcome would have been 'enjoyed' by all but equally there may have been a smaller deficit run in the economy which would have mitigated the current shambles.
The (ab)use of PPI to get capital spending managed 'off-book' (remember that golden 40% rule) and leaving nice little 35-year mortgages throughout the economy is nothing less than scandalous -makes Gove's 'free schools' look like a minor jolly.
GDP leaves a lot to be desired as a marker of economic health.
>>Calculation of my 'final salary' pension
I seem to recall way back that you could calculate a civil service pension on a final year salary with a bunch of unused holidays added to inflate the effective salary - I think that was ditched a couple of decades ago!
>>Did you do as well as English GPs from the mid noughties deal which recognised pay was not enough to recruit/motivate/retain and also removed out of hours cover?
I would presume so, relatively speaking - GP income is largely tied to the size of their practice list: English lists tend to be 10-20% higher than the other nations thus their overall pay will be 10-20% higher roughly - my post superann earnings went from around £80k to around £100k between 2004 and 2007 - since then it has stagnated/started dropping off, as well as several %age points more pension costs being extracted.
Interestingly morale, workload and burnout is a bit worse now IMO than it was in the early noughties, and I see no chance of this improving in the next parliamentary cycle - appointment demand is apparently around 340 million pa compared to 300million a few years ago (roughly 10,000 appointments per GP per year) - expect to see Tesco/Virgin/BUPA etc running the practices that are now being run by locums or close to collapse, or a higher level of practice federation.
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>> In more extreme forms, which I in no way advocate, it comes about by revolution.
>>
>> That's where the money comes from.
How does revolution generate funds?
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>> >> In more extreme forms, which I in no way advocate, it comes about by
>> revolution.
>> >>
>> >> That's where the money comes from.
>>
>>
>> How does revolution generate funds?
In the words of Alex Glasgow's 'As Soon as This Pub Closes'
We'll shoot the aristocracy and confiscate their brass'
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B96qKs4-EI8
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>> That's where the money comes from.
>>
Or to put it more simply... them as works is taxed to death to pay for them as won't.
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>> Left wing politics starts from perspective that the distribution of wealth/income/opportunity dictated by history and
>> the free market is both exploitative and unfair. It then seeks to redress that unfairness
>> by redistribution.
...and then creates another unfairness with the 'haves' and 'have nots'...only this time, there's no one generating income for the country..and..no way of having your say and/or getting rid of those in power.
I know which flawed system I'd rather have.
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>> ...and then creates another unfairness with the 'haves' and 'have nots'...only this time, there's no
>> one generating income for the country..and..no way of having your say and/or getting rid of
>> those in power.
>>
>> I know which flawed system I'd rather have.
Finding the balance between different unfairnesses and ensuring that national wealth continues to be generated is a challenge for the democratic left. (West) Germany seems to have made social democracy work though, so does the Netherlands.
As I thought I'd made clear I'm talking about democratic socialism where elections continue on same constitutional basis whether left or right win.
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Who is being discussed here? The OP is extremely obscure.
Communists? Trotskyists? The Labour Party? Nick Clegg?
No one has said. So so far this thread is a steaming heap of utter rubbish, stupidly reactionary in tone.
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AC,
To save you doing your own Googling the OP refers to leftunity.org/ a ginger group hoping to lure the Labour party left in same way UKIP has forced Tories to drift right.
The reactionaries are out in force but given this site's history Daily Telegraph thinking is embedded in its DNA.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 1 Apr 14 at 20:32
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>>but given this site's history Daily Telegraph thinking is embedded in its DNA.
I didn't find this site, or any predecessor, via the Daily Telegraph.
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>> I didn't find this site, or any predecessor, via the Daily Telegraph.
I wasn't suggesting it was universal but as HJ begat this site and the telegraph begat the HJ forum via his column I stand by my assertion about DNA.
Oddly, notwithstanding my lefty credentials, I did arrive via the DT. Used to get it on Saturday because, like my equally left Dad, I found the weekend edition's nineties supplements including Motoring, Gardening and Finance excellent value.
Discovered the HJ forum via his column in the Motors section.
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>> I stand by my assertion about DNA.
I get your point, but I think it doesn't hold up. I think the site generates and perpetuates its own prevailing politics.
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>> >> as HJ begat this site
>>
>>
Did he? I thought it was started by rogue mutated DNA that couldn't thrive in the old restrictive culture medium?
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>> I didn't find this site, or any predecessor, via the Daily Telegraph.
I did. The terrorflag has been my favourite comic for donkey's years. The proprietors, three dynasties since I have been reading the thing, have always been rabidly reactionary but the hacks - or quite a lot of them - are another matter.
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>> I did. The terrorflag has been my favourite comic for donkey's years. The proprietors, three
>> dynasties since I have been reading the thing, have always been rabidly reactionary but the
>> hacks - or quite a lot of them - are another matter.
So, Old Lefties, read the Telegraph to ensure they are reading stories written by quality journalists, despite the Right wing views of the owners.
You sure you haven't 'seen the light' and have moved your views...but are a bit embarrassed about it and like to keep your toe in the water from whence you came from?...;-)
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>> a bit embarrassed about it and like to keep your toe in the water from whence you came from?...;-)
Nah. Takes more than that to embarrass me. It's a very long time since I regarded myself as a lefty or even as holding socialist views. It's led to many an interesting and bad-tempered discussion with old friends. I went off ideologies after spending time in places where they are taken 'seriously' on governmental level.
You can evolve a bit without becoming indifferent to class injustice and inequality though. Indeed it was the perception that lefties too can be thuggish, stupid, naive, irresponsible and smug that led to that evolution...
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Left Unity. They just had their conference, seemed an interesting topic.
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Could I possibly prevail on those in favour of wealth redistribution to assign me some of their pensions please ? No rush mind but if you could get everything set up I'll let you know when it's required.
;-)
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Well, I could lend you an old MG1300GT for your European travels. (still not crushed, can't quite bring myself).
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Kind of ye sur....touches forelock and bows imperceptibly while backing away....
;-)
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Am I the only one to misread the thread title as left utility?
For a minute I thought ^ had changed his energy provider ;)
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>>For a minute I thought ^ had changed his energy provider ;)<<
So many jokes there but I am not allowed :-)
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Left Unity - No FM2R
