I guess most of us had grandfathers/great-grandfathers who survived WW1.
Some families suffered greatly (and not forgetting families who have suffered since and up to the present day).
Made me think how lucky 2 Granddads were, and Dad and his brother, and Mum were in WW2! Otherwise I would not be here!
www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/10652020/First-World-War-Losing-one-child-in-war-is-a-terrible-thing-so-just-imagine-losing-five.html
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I promised my gran I would visit the graves of her two brothers in France.
Sadly I only achieved it after she'd died. After she'd gone, I felt guilty about it, so looked them up on the CWGC site and off to France I went with two wreaths.
Surprisingly moving it was, to see their names on headstones.
I've got a photo of one of them here, in his army uniform..and the brass plaque for the other one (the ones family's were given), my cousin has the other plaque.
I shall make sure my kids are up on it all, when they're old enough.
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Thinking about this, we must be unusual in never having lost a family member in war since the Wars of the Roses.
One grandfather was a bit old for WW1, but seved as a war artist in the camouflage section. The other served in MTBs and survived.
(Recent obituary quote - "40 knots on a moon-lit night - who'd be in the infantry?")
My father was still at school at the start of WW2, did a university degree in two years with no vacations, and then worked at RAF Farnborough as a scientist.
My mother was at university, then a land-girl.
So no lions or donkeys - just quite a lot of fun really.
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>> So no lions or donkeys - just quite a lot of fun really.
Nicoles father had a great time in WW2 according to the tales he told her. Tank driver in the 8th army he went all through the desert campaign, invasion of sicily, invasion of Italy, held up at Monte Casino, and eventually spent the rest of the war in Italy with the girls and the vino.
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"Nicoles father had a great time in WW2 according to the tales he told her. Tank driver in the 8th army he went all through the desert campaign, invasion of sicily, invasion of Italy, held up at Monte Casino, and eventually spent the rest of the war in Italy with the girls and the vino."
I think my Dad was following him! He was in artillery and followed the same course.
Our first family holiday abroad was in 1963 in a caravan to visit Italy to take us back to where Dad had such good times in the War!!!
The Morris 1100 we towed 'van with attracted great interest on continent with its transverse engine. Mind you, typical BL product - I can still remember the German for "My clutch is broken" - "Mein kuplung ist kaput!" (not sure of spelling though)
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The thing about WW1 was how it changed the demographics of the country. Check out any memorial in any small country town or village, any church yard, anywhere and everywhere in the UK, and you will see a list of names of those that fell in the "Great War"
This was kind of brought home to me after a visit to the Lost Gardens of Heligan. Lost because everyone who ran the place went to war and never came back.
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>>quite a lot of fun really
A point not sufficiently aired. Many young people had more fun, more responsibility and in many cases better food, clothing and housing than in civilian life. I encountered the one-hour lunch break for the first time in the Army and enjoyed more freedom in it than later, in commerce and industry. At my own request, I also got an expenses-paid year overseas.
None of these of course are reasons for welcoming war.
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"just quite a lot of fun really"
Yes, good point. I have my Grandad's diary from 1915-1916. One of the striking things about it is the contrasts. Much of it is describing a boring time (things like "Did not get up till dinner time. Lovely day. A real lazy day, did absolutely nothing and did it well. Had waltz at night, floor of yard rather rough. Plenty of pits round here, lovely roads, miles perfectly straight and lined with trees. Can see three balloons, think all are French. Billeted in a cottage, quite cushy"), but other bits describe close shaves, like when he was sitting on a bucket reading a paper and a piece of shrapnel went through the paper and between his legs!.
And he had fun
("Could not travel direct to Doullens, had to go round by Amiens. Four ripping girls travelled with us - they are learning English at college. Had some great sport; addresses in this book.")
Others a bit tragic - his cousin walked over to meet him (amazing how small the battlefield on the Somme was!), they had a photo taken together but Norman, his cousin was killed by a shell as he walked back to his unit.
And, on July 1 1916
"July 1st
Infantry attacked - cannot say as yet how things have gone. Heavens, what sights have come back! It is too awful for words. How little those who write and criticise in the papers realise what it is like."
Another entry describes how conditions were so intense that he had not changed his clothes or socks for 3 weeks.
In a way he was lucky - he was in RGA, firing big howitzers which had a range of 9000 yards, so well behind the trenches.
Another striking thing is that it is all written in beautiful handwriting and in almost perfect English - yet he left school at 14 to work on his father's tenant farm in the Yorkshire Dales.
There is a transcript here if you fancy a read - sorry it's such a carp effort at a website by me, done years ago as a first attempt.
www.soar100.freeserve.co.uk/page33.html
Sorry, that was a longer post than I intended!
P
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Oops, sorry, that link is for a particular page, not start of diary
www.soar100.freeserve.co.uk/index.html
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Fascinating Phil. How fortunate that such wonderful recollections and details have survived.
I've got several books of my grandfather's sketches - mostly troops lazing around smoking, or playing football, and lots of details of mock-up villages, gun emplacements, etc.
Also a series of beautiful watercolours of Amiens.
No other beauties though.
He designed a rather clever Unit Christmas card for 1918, depicting a soldier striding along in snowboots while pulling off his forage cap to reveal that he is Father Chrismas underneath. His Lee-Enfield is slung in non-military fashion like a game-hunter, and he carries a goose and several strings of sausages round his neck like bandoliers.
A little cherub wearing a jaunty German helmet strides along blowing a trumpet, bearing the message "Goodwill to all and peace in 1919".
Two mice dance in the snow underneath some rusting barbed wire.
I've a letter written to him from his cousin seving on a battle-cruiser. The language of the time is an old family joke. Full of sentences like "Hope to see you when this show is over if I'm still top-sides up", "The baccy you sent me was unfortunately filched by old mother ocean". "We are all dying to have a go at the hun", and "Took the men ashore for some football".
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"I've got several books of my grandfather's sketches - mostly troops lazing around smoking, or playing football, and lots of details of mock-up villages, gun emplacements, etc.
Also a series of beautiful watercolours of Amiens."
Would love to see those Cliff. Have you scanned them?
Grandad W (JAW) was near Amiens after March retreat in 1918 - my Dad did a lot of research on this time and reckons that JAW's guns marked the furthest the Germans advanced towards Amiens at Villers-Bret. Guns were lost overnight to German infantry who came out of Bois d'Abbe/ Bois d'Aquenne and because they were Howitzers they couldn't be lowered enough to fire at infantry just a few hundred yards away so JAW and others had to run for it and hide in forest. Aussies recaptured guns in morning and that, and other advances around Villers Bret, was the beginning of Allied advance which resulted in victory 6 months later. Dad and I found exact spot where guns were sited - now obliterated by A29 autoroute.
"The language of the time is an old family joke."
same here! After one particular near death experience JAW wrote "Put wind up this chicken" we still use it when nervous/frightened!
There are lots of photos here from WW1 and later taken by JAW and/or friends and me (much later!!) - you may find them interesting (or not!)
s33.photobucket.com/user/PhilRW/library/?sort=3&page=1
They are not catalogued or annotated 'cos originally put on in response to requests on WW1 Forum.
If you want to know more PM (?) me.
I would like to know more about your GD and Amiens but fear it's a bit off topic for this forum!
More apologies to others for long (irrelevant!) post.
P
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Fun?
My father ended up as adjutant of an Indian Sikh regiment posted to Burma in 1941/2 (logical as he was a fluent German speaker having been to University in Germany pre war,)
He never talked about his experiences in Burma, Iraq, Iran (Persia then), Jordan or Israel but he bore the grenade scars and could not never move his left arm properly afterwards.
He came home in 1945 - after 4 years being chased by the Japanese and then chasing them.
Not a subject he ever discussed.. rather harrowing I think.
I think he was 21 when he went out to Burma..
He always hated curry, sultanas (drying in the sun) and bad tea as a result and shaved in as little water as possible after being rationed to 3 pints/day for weeks on end..(for drinking and washing).
Edit
We inherited some nice Persian rugs though...which are still in use 70 years later..
Last edited by: madf on Sun 23 Feb 14 at 19:13
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I was on an inland road between Calais towards the border with Belgium some years ago Every few miles there was a British war cemetery, about the size of two tennis courts with a 100 or so well maintained graves. One could plot the advance just by looking at the dates on the headstones; very few people older than early twenties either
Some of you may know about "Thankful Villages" places in UK with no war memorials as everybody who went to war came back. To be honest there were not many! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thankful_Villages
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>>
>> Also a series of beautiful watercolours of Amiens."
>> Would love to see those Cliff. Have you scanned them?
No - framed long before the days of scanners, so now behind glass.
Sometimes glazed pictures will photograph - I'll have a go.
Done in 1917, I think, so show the town pre-battle.
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>> A point not sufficiently aired. Many young people had more fun, more responsibility and in
>> many cases better food, clothing and housing than in civilian life. I encountered the one-hour
>> lunch break for the first time in the Army and enjoyed more freedom in it
>> than later, in commerce and industry. At my own request, I also got an expenses-paid
>> year overseas.
>>
>> None of these of course are reasons for welcoming war.
>>
Indeed, I remember my grandfather once telling me that many of his fellow soldiers in WW1 had joined up in little more than rags and thought it luxury to have a bed to themselves, some had been sleeping four to a bed. As for food many had only been used to eating meat on the odd occasion. He said that the recruiting officers were shocked when they started conscription as to how many recruits were deemed unfit to serve and yet had been in full time employment before being called up.
As you say, no reason for welcoming war but these certainly raised the expectations and aspirations of those returning to civilian life after the conflict; expectations and aspirations that helped shape a very changed society in the following years.
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Better food, pay, allowences, accommodation etc isn't something unique to WW1 recruits. There are many periods (including now) where that is true. I've worked with Militaries overseas and found that to be true in many cases, not just third world countries.
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My Grandfather served with Lawrence of Arabia and is even mentioned in the roll at the end of the book - Seven Pillars of Wisdom.
This is the first time I've tried Photobucket so here goes:
s1335.photobucket.com/user/Fullchat/slideshow/Lawrence%20of%20Arabia
Grandfather is the handsome one sat in the chair. Lawrence is laid in the back of the armoured car.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 23 Feb 14 at 21:15
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>> I guess most of us had grandfathers/great-grandfathers who survived WW1.
>>
My father was in WW1. No idea where he went or what he did.
One of his medals indicates he was an acting sergeant.
He served as an ARP warden in WW2.
That's about all I know. He died early when I was eleven so as far as I recall he did not speak of his activities. My mother seemed to know little or did not want to speak about it.
Now I will probably never know.
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>> >> I guess most of us had grandfathers/great-grandfathers who survived WW1.
Err no actually, never came back. My Grandfather never met his father
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My grandfather was born in 1864 so would have been a little old for the First World War. Had several uncles who did serve in the war including one who volunteered in 1915 and served in the machine gun corp throughout the war, fought in some of the worst battles on the Western Front and didn't leave the army until 1921
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AFAIK we just lost the one in the Kaiser unpleasantness. SWM's great uncle on her mum's side.
James Woolley of Stockport was a ' gold finisher in the hat trade ' and signed up, with his two brothers, in the Cheshire Regiment.
He died of wounds on 7/7/17 and is buried in the Mendingham war cemetery near Proven in Belgium. We have visited him and had some difficulty finding the grave. The inscription was very hard to read and we were looking for a specifically numbered grave when we should have been searching for a numbered body.........two in a grave...so he was in no. 6 or thereabouts, when the book said he was in no. 12 !
Mendingham was one of three local dressing stations...Mending 'em, Fixing 'em and Bandaging 'em. I'm not sure if all three became cemeteries.
SWM's Grandpa Jack and Gt Uncle Bill both came home safe. I knew Granpa for a few years up to his death in 1971 as he lived with SWM's family, being a long term widower...1922 !
We have his medals and also a silk ribbon in memory of Oswald Jepson of 14 Brinksway, Stockport', who was a relative by marriage .
Me ole mam's dad was, I assume, a merchant seaman as he was a career sailor with the Manchester Liners. I never knew him as he died in 1924. He and his wife are buried in a disused churchyard at Barton on Irwell just 40/50 feet from the Manchester Ship Canal which he sailed up and down many times.
HO
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>> My Grandfather never met his father
>>
Same here but different - great-Grandad was a Grenadier Guard, but died of appendicitis in 1912, shortly before Grandad was born. So great-Grandad missed WW1 and surely would have served. Grandad, however, lived to his 60s was in the Pioneer Corps in WW2, North Africa. Dad missed national service by a whisker. I'd have volunteered if there had been a WW3, but I'm getting a bit old now.
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Now there is the rub.
Who of us, if of eligible criteria, would automatically sign up for a WW3
I know I for one wouldn't without knowing the cause was just.
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>> I know I for one wouldn't without knowing the cause was just.
>>
Fair comment. WW2? Yes. WW1? Dunno so much.
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Good question Z. With hindsight I don't think I (and maybe many others) would have volunteered for WW1.
However, in Grandad W's position in August 1914 would I have thought "Ayup, a bit of adventure. Will make a change from dawn to dusk work on a tenant farm and anyway, it will all be over by Christmas. And I'll be with my five mates, in France, being relatively well paid - might be good fun"???????
If I'd been in the pub with mates talking about it after a few pints, I probably would!
Also, I wonder how much peer pressure there was? "All the other lads in the village/factory/football club are joining up, why aren't you? Are you a coward/unpatriotic??".
Don't think my Dad had much choice in WW2. He was conscipted on leaving school in 1942.
Incidentally, some very interesting contributions on here. Thanks.
If any are interested in researching relations' war records a good place to start is the WW1 Forum which gives places to go for WW1 records/war graves etc.
Also some very, very knowledgeable people who will help, very patiently, those of us who started off research in complete ignorance! (I speak from experience!!).
P
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We have seen the end of a large conscripted army for war. Its all far too high tech, too distant, too mobile, too skilled to require the need to put raw bodies in the line in the 21st century.
WW1 was cleverly conscripted, "the pals" regiments for example - a form of moral blackmail, which had the result of concentrated local social pockets at home of men who never came back.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 24 Feb 14 at 18:59
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" Its all far too high tech, too distant, too mobile, too skilled to require the need to put raw bodies in the line in the 21st century."
Probably right Z. All that is needed is a few drones armed with nuclear weapons controlled by bods in deep bunkers (instructed by politicians in even deeper bunkers) to wipe out the rest of us.
Yet we still have guys on the ground (Afghanistan and the rest) who are dying at close quarters to the "enemy" .
Is it because all are afraid of employing the ultimate weapons or because modern warfare seems to involve terrorist (resistance/independence ???) fighters rather than international wars?
Maybe we should just keep our noses out of other peoples' business???
We don't seem to improve long term matters much by our involvement (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc)
I am very open to other opinions!!!
Just feel that some incursions are pointless. (esp Afghanistan where past history (British in the distant past and Russia in the '80s) should have told us that it was an "unwinnable" place.
As I said - very open to other opinions!
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Grandfather one was in a reserved occupation, so saw world war 2 out as a fireman on the GWR, Cambrian branches.
Grandfather two was officially too old, but volunteered anyway. He joined the RAF regiment, and never spoke of his experiences to us grandkids, but grandma told us he served in Europe in 1945, and apparently visited the concentration camps vey shortly after they were liberated. One day I intend to check this against his service record as the story was a bit vague.
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Fingers crossed, big world-scale wars are a thing of the past.
These days wars are civil wars or border wars in or between countries of, er, secondary importance.
The beastliness of Hitlerite ideology and Nazi policy was a bit of a godsend to WW2 recruiting sergeants, I can't help feeling. Although the full awfulness of the Nazis didn't become apparent - or even all happen actually - until well on in the war, they made it sufficiently clear that they were evil carphounds right from the start. Not very bright of them, but convenient.
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>>The beastliness of Hitlerite ideology and Nazi policy was a bit of a godsend to WW2 recruiting sergeants, I can't help feeling.
>>
As conscription was in place in WW2, there was no need for recruiting sergeants.
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There was conscription. But a lot of people volunteered, and there weren't a lot of people trying to get out of it.
The Nazis were frightening, very fearsome. But people still longed to fight them because they were nasty.
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See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Kingdom
Conscription began several months before the war started, in a limited form, and was progressively widened until 1942.
It says, presumably correctly.
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Oh well should conscription ever be re introduced and the same age range be used for the call up as it was in WW2 most of us on here should be exempt. It will be the Home Guard for us !
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>> Oh well should conscription ever be re introduced and the same age range be used
>> for the call up as it was in WW2 most of us on here should
>> be exempt. It will be the Home Guard for us !
>>
I volunteer to be the Sergeant..
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There are certainly a few candidates for Private Godfrey's role!
;-)
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I think he'd have to drive a Panda..........
;-)
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Pat - Mrs Pike
Zero - Sgt Wilson
Humph - Private Walker
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But who is going to be Cap'n Mainwearing?
Got to be elderly, pompous and full of their own importance...
:-)
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Mapmaker.........:)
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Tue 25 Feb 14 at 15:39
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>> Mapmaker.........:)
>>
>> Pat
>>
Surely not. :-)
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>> Surely not. :-)
Shouldn't you have said 'Foolish girl!' madf? That would have made your candidature more explicit.
:o}
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>>
>> >> Surely not. :-)
>>
>> Shouldn't you have said 'Foolish girl!' madf? That would have made your candidature more explicit.
>>
>>
>> :o}
>>
>>
Do you think that's wise Sir?
would you mind awfully falling in please?
dadsarmy.wikia.com/wiki/Sergeant_Arthur_Wilson
Last edited by: madf on Tue 25 Feb 14 at 16:25
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Pda, you actually don't know how funny that is...
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 26 Feb 14 at 10:02
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Would you care to explain why?
Pat
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Sorry, Private Joke!
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 26 Feb 14 at 10:20
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I bet it's not the first time you've been called that:)
Pat
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>> Zero - Sgt Wilson
But that makes Zero Pike's "Uncle Arthur".
Surely not?
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>> >> Zero - Sgt Wilson
>>
>> But that makes Zero Pike's "Uncle Arthur".
>>
>> Surely not?
Absolutely.
Zero is Walker.
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Rattle must be Pike surely???
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It would be fun to speculate what the platoon would have been driving in 1939 before the war. Perhaps:
Mainwaring - very proud of his new Rover P2
Wilson - a battered old Bentley
Jones - his van
Fraser - a huge Rolls-Royce hearse
Walker - a flashy Vauxhall
Godfrey - "I never learned to drive - I never got round to it"
Pike - his mum's Austin 7 which he reverses into Mainwaring's Rover ("You stupid boy")
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How about Chief Air Raid Precautions Warden William (Willie) Hodges - Westpig ? :)))
Sorry Skip :(
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 25 Feb 14 at 22:49
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>> How about Chief Air Raid Precautions Warden William (Willie) Hodges - Westpig ? :)))
>>
>> Sorry Skip :(
I'll take that...if you give it out you have to expect to receive it....;-)
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>> See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Kingdom
>>
>> Conscription began several months before the war started, in a limited form, and was progressively
>> widened until 1942.
>>
>> It says, presumably correctly.
It doesn't state it in that article, and I stand to be corrected, but I had the impression that once a person reached the correct age they could volunteer to ensure that they got the service or regiment, etc., that they preferred rather than be allocated by conscription.
I know my father signed up for the Royal Artillery the day after his seventeenth birthday and travelled to Woolwich to do so, we had a historical family record of being gunners, but he said one of his relatives predicted he would be called up for the Navy and would die at sea so his mother said she would rather he be behind an artillery piece as no gunners in the family had ever fallen in battle.....
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I think that's right. Objectors could opt for the medical corps, or be conscripted into the coal mines.
There were reserved occupations which gave exemption, sometimes compulsorily because of national interest.
I believe my uncle had difficulty getting into the RAF because he was a farmer.
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>> There were reserved occupations which gave exemption, sometimes compulsorily because of national interest.
>> I believe my uncle had difficulty getting into the RAF because he was a farmer.
>>
My FIL worked on the railway, an uncle was a coal miner and another uncle was working for the Gas Light and Coke Company. All were in reserved occupations and continued their roles.
FIL used to commute from Feltham ( near Heathrow) to the East end of London and it was a pretty risky commute.
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>> It doesn't state it in that article, and I stand to be corrected, but I
>> had the impression that once a person reached the correct age they could volunteer to
>> ensure that they got the service or regiment, etc., that they preferred rather than be
>> allocated by conscription.
Family history has it that my Uncle did that.
When he came of age for service he was a 'Youth in Training' with GPO Telephones.
It was pointed out to him that with that background he'd very quickly be at the front, the North Africa, with the Engineers. Instead he volunteered for the RAF and spent the rest of the war in Canada on pilot training. Returning after the peace he spent 45-47 flying Yorks out to the Far East, usually Changi.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 26 Feb 14 at 09:52
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I am probably off to Holland and Belgium for a few days in June. I hope to finally get to my GGF's entry on the menem gate.
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There's a very good Robert Godard thriller (In Pale Battalions) which begins with someone visiting a WWI memorial, and noticing that the dates couldn't be right.
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"I hope to finally get to my GGF's entry on the Menin Gate."
You'll shed a tear or two Z - esp if you are there for the last post.
But a very worthwhile experience.
Enjoy it - in that peculiar way.
P
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>>It was pointed out to him that with that background he'd very quickly be at the front, the
>>North Africa, with the Engineers. Instead he volunteered for the RAF and spent the rest of
>>the war in Canada on pilot training.
Not the best use of the country's resources as it had to train up somebody different on telecoms! Surprising the country allowed it at the time.
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>> Not the best use of the country's resources as it had to train up somebody
>> different on telecoms! Surprising the country allowed it at the time.
He still had to pass all the aptitude tests to be accepted for RAF training.
There would have been at least a dozen more 'youths in training' on his GPO course alone who could do the telecoms stuff.
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Running a two wire field telephone from command post to forward observation post whilst under fire is not exactly highly technical requiring special skills!
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>>He still had to pass all the aptitude tests to be accepted for RAF training.
Of course. No criticism implied of your relative. (Probably safer doing telecoms than learning to fly...)
I bet the other dozen youths on telecoms training never got near a telephone line even if they wanted to. (Don't join the army if you can't take a joke.)
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 28 Feb 14 at 09:36
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No criticism assumed MM.
He died young, aged 60 in 1983. His widow re-married and we assumed we'd lost his records etc.
She and her second husband both passed on in last couple of years but still living in same house he and his Mother had lived in since c1955.
We were touched to be contacted by second husband's executors and asked if we wanted stuff from house. Found his flying log book, pilot's brevet etc all stored in boxes along with other personal stuff like his sixties Pentax Camera and (motoring connection) the BMC workshop manual for the Mini he kept on the road for her.
His first solo was in a Fairchild Cornell on 31/03/45.
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>> We were touched to be contacted by second husband's executors and asked if we wanted
>> stuff from house.
Decent people then.
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How lucky are we? (WW1 connection) - Westpig
