Non-motoring > Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: R.P.	Replies: 35

New Sat 15 Feb 14 10:04   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - R.P.

Continuing debate. Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 15 Feb 14 at 21:00 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 14:27   Helicopters Grounded - henry k

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-26194408 A police helicopter which crashed on a busy pub in Glasgow last November suffered a double engine failure, apparently as a result of a fuel supply problem, investigators have found. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 14:32   Helicopters Grounded - BobbyG

But no evidence of fuel lines being blocked or fuel pump problems?? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 14:33   Helicopters Grounded - Duncan

>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-26194408 >> >> A police helicopter which crashed on a busy pub in Glasgow last November suffered a >> double engine failure, apparently as a result of a fuel supply problem, investigators have found.>> Still a mystery. It seems there was fuel in the tank, no problem with the fuel pump(s), no problem with the fuel line(s). Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 14:44   Helicopters Grounded - Bromptonaut

AAIB Special Bulletin is here: www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/AAIB%20S2-2014%20G-SPAO.pdf Both engines flamed out due to fuel starvation. There was 76kg still on board after accident with no evidence of leakage. Still some way from a conclusion I think. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 15:05   Helicopters Grounded - Slidingpillar

Interesting. Although there was 76kg of fuel on board, the limit for night time operations is more. So from that point, the helicopter should have been landing. Since both engines flamed out and only a small amount of fuel was found in filters etc, the obvious conclusion was there was a fuel supply problem - not yet identified. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 21:38   Helicopters Grounded - sooty123

Seems there was fuel to keep the engines turning although below minimum. Yet there was very little in the collector tanks and I believe the pumps were switched off. That's where the investigation will focus. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 21:42   Helicopters Grounded - Kevin

What are collector tanks sooty? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 21:49   Helicopters Grounded - sooty123

They are the fuel tanks that feed each specific engine. Fuel feeds into these collector tanks from the fuselage tanks. That's what I've always known them be called, other names may be used from different manufacturers. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 21:58   Helicopters Grounded - sooty123

Just looked again, they are what EC call Supply Tanks. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 14 Feb 14 22:04   Helicopters Grounded - R.P.

According to the beeb the fuel switches were off and there was a problem with the display that showed their status. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Feb 14 00:39   Helicopters Grounded - Armel Coussine

>> According to the beeb the fuel switches were off and there was a problem with the display that showed their status. Does this suggest the possibility of pilot error, perhaps exacerbated by a mechanical or electrical glitch? It always seemed likely to me, but I don't really know. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 15 Feb 14 09:56   Helicopters Grounded - Bromptonaut

Discussion in rotorheads forum of PPRUNE is here: www.pprune.org/rotorheads/528850-police-helicopter-crashes-onto-glasgow-pub-101.html They know what happened but not why. The exact sequence of known events is unclear though, as they're not recorded on a timebased data recorder. Some data is available from memory in individual systems but not in a way that allows them to be plotted against UTC time. One or other of the transfer pumps, according to the machine's flight attitude should have been selected on to move some/all the 70+ kg in main tank to feeders. Next stages of investigation will focus on why not and on why the pilot did not or could not use the autorotate process (descent puts kinetic energy into the rotor which is then discharged to soften impact with ground) to achieve a safe, or at least survivable, landing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 28 Nov 14 11:49   Latest - Bromptonaut

The Aircraft Accident Investigators have today published an update: www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/G-SPAO%20Press%20Release%20v2.pdf In brief, investigations continue. Final report expected in mid 2015. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 28 Nov 14 13:37   Latest - Slidingpillar

And to save anyone else looking, the update is a page of A4 that says that. Nothing else really. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 28 Nov 14 14:00   Latest - Zero

>> In brief, "We don't know" Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 15 12:09   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Focusless

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34606835 First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said it was "deeply disappointing that after two years of investigation the report does not reach a clearer conclusion". Isn't the report basically saying it was pilot error, or would they have stated that explicitly if they had come to that conclusion? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 15 14:06   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Slidingpillar

Isn't the report basically saying it was pilot error, or would they have stated that explicitly if they had come to that conclusion? AAIB reports don't 'blame' as such and although what they know points at pilot error, it's not one single thing that caused the helicopter to crash but several. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 15 18:35   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Old Navy

The local news is reporting that the helicopter had enough fuel to reach its base. This fuel was in the main tank, the smaller tanks which supply the engines were empty and the fuel transfer pumps were switched off. Low fuel warning alarms were ignored, reason unknown. An armchair expert said that the transfer pumps would normally be on but might be switched off in certain (unspecified) situations. Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 23 Oct 15 at 18:38 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 15 18:48   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - rtj70

We can only assume there was a reason why these switches were off and may never know why. Maybe they were off when it crashed but the pilot was switching them on and off to try to get the pump to work. The only question I'd have which cannot be answered is why he continued flying when fuel in the smaller tanks was low. Whatever the reason fuel was not being transferred, staying in the air was a risk. But there may be a reason why he couldn't safely land. The other question I'd have is why doesn't the helicopter take it's fuel directly from the larger tank!!!? Presumably pumping from larger to smaller tank is automatic and continuous. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 15 18:53   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - henry k

www.pprune.org/rotorheads/569553-police-helicopter-crashes-onto-glasgow-pub-final-aaib-report.html Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 15 19:11   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - sooty123

Presumably pumping from larger to smaller tank is automatic and continuous. >> Pretty much standard on aircraft, fixed wing or rotary. Each engine is fed by a collector (ie the 'smaller') tank. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 15 20:32   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Slidingpillar

On the basis of the report and the PPrune forum not really shedding any further light, the cold hard fact is - we'll never know. Hence the recommendation that a flight recorder be fitted. It's odd for sure. Well qualified pilot appears to have committed multiple errors, but the transfer switches being off at the point of impact could be a red herring - the pilot might have been repeatedly turning them on and off, perhaps with a malfunctioning transfer pump. But even if that was the truth, plenty of places between Bothwell and central Glasgow to put a helicopter down. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 15 20:40   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - sooty123

It's odd for sure. Well qualified pilot appears to have committed multiple errors, but the >> transfer switches being off at the point of impact could be a red herring - >> the pilot might have been repeatedly turning them on and off, perhaps with a malfunctioning >> transfer pump. I've not read the report but I would think they checked every component in the system in question. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 15 21:13   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Slidingpillar

I've not read the report but I would think they checked every component in the system in question. Many, many times. But the helicopter 'landed' with an almighty thump and how many times have you known a bit of percussive therapy 'fix' a reluctant component? So if it worked for them, you cannot unequivocally state it was 100% as you just don't know. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 15 00:20   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - smokie

Any chance the pilot had had some sort of medical crisis and a passenger was trying to fly it or would they have been able to work that out? Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 15 05:53   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - sooty123

>> Any chance the pilot had had some sort of medical crisis and a passenger was >> trying to fly it or would they have been able to work that out? >> I would think so, my understanding is that it piled in only when both engines flamed out. I don't think anyone untrained would have flown it that far. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 15 05:51   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - sooty123

So if it >> worked for them, you cannot unequivocally state it was 100% as you just don't know. >> >> No it won't be 100% but you can tell the difference between failure from impact and failure from a faulty component. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 15 09:34   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Slidingpillar

No it won't be 100% but you can tell the difference between failure from impact and failure from a faulty component. In that case, better talk to them, they'll offer you a job! Actually though, all you can tell is the various probabilities. If an incandescent bulb was involved, it is usually possible to tell if it was illuminated at the time of breakage, and obviously one can examine the inlet and outlet pipes of the pump to see if they are dry, but to say if a component was 100% cannot be done. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 15 16:14   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - sooty123

In that case, better talk to them, they'll offer you a job! They can do that already, but not all of the time. Sorry if it came across as saying that they cab tell 100% of the time. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 15 15:08   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Fursty Ferret

>> I've not read the report but I would think they checked every component in the >> system in question. >> >> Many, many times. But the helicopter 'landed' with an almighty thump and how many times >> have you known a bit of percussive therapy 'fix' a reluctant component? So if it >> worked for them, you cannot unequivocally state it was 100% as you just don't know. >> >> The pilot will have received three separate warnings / cautions (low fuel in supply tanks and low fuel in main tank) and should have known that the "big" low fuel warning was generated from a different transmitter and guarantees only 10 minutes of fuel remaining. Nothing is mentioned in the report of possible fatigue despite this being the first night shift of a block. Edit: Oh yeah, stuff like this doesn't break. There will likely be two independent systems collating warning / caution data and each of those will separately feed one half of the warning light. Which is probably LED, so not prone to failing. Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Sat 24 Oct 15 at 15:09 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 15 15:47   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Bromptonaut

>> Presumably pumping from larger to smaller tank is automatic and continuous. It seems not. Report refers to two transfer pumps at fore and aft end of main tank. Below a certain fuel level changes in the aircraft's attitude, presumably mainly pitch, can expose one or other pump. The pumps can run dry for quite long periods 20 mins without harm but in such a condition the operating practice is to turn off the exposed pump. The investigation has been able to determine that both pumps were off after leaving an assignment at Bothwell and were not switched on again. The aircraft continued to further assignments even after low fuel alarms, to which the response should be land in 10 minutes, sounded. My impression from the report is that while a Flight Data Recorder would have provided greater certainty and accuracy the investigators have a pretty clear picture of the technical etc parameters. What is missing is any evidence of the conversations on the flight deck and thus he thought process that allowed the flight to continue in spite of repeated alarms etc without either landing or transmitting any emergency message. A cockpit voice recorder would have filled that gap. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 25 Oct 15 13:20   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Bromptonaut

It also seems clear from the PPRUNE conversation that the 400kg of fuel on departure would give an endurance of around 1hr40m. By the time of the crash the chopper had been airborne or a little over 1hr:30 andhad approx 75kg left. No previous mission had landed on less than 100kg. Almost as if pilot was blasé about fuel warnings but surely the AAIB would have discovered if there was such a culture in the operator. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 25 Oct 15 13:47   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - Zero

>> Almost as if pilot was blasé about fuel warnings but surely the AAIB would have >> discovered if there was such a culture in the operator. Not read any of the AAIB report, nor followed the PPRUNE thread, merely seen digested highlights on news sites. Based on your précis, clearly the pilot is not blasé about fuel endurance, so I would hazard a guess that the pilot had been placed under some kind of operational pressure to extend the mission that night. Last edited by: Zero on Sun 25 Oct 15 at 13:51 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 25 Oct 15 13:49   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - sooty123

I guess it will be one of those things where they isn't ever an answer. Who knows what was going through his head? He thought it was worth pushing on for some reason. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 25 Oct 15 14:53   Glasgow Helicopter Crash - Volume 3 - smokie

I read bits of the report and one thing which struck me was that the police passenger has to have a level of skill, not to fly but to do certain procedures to do with the flying (to relieve the pilot of some of the burden). It was mentioned that the police had been in touch with the ground during their previous job, and also there was intermittent contact about location and destination, and the police passenger did not mention that anything untoward was going on to his controllers, despite the fact that the warnings about fuel level must have been going off at increasingly short intervals. Reply to this message | Report message