I have spent the last 4 days removing an old fitted unit, dot and dabbing and skimming a wall section and concreting some of the floor.
My next big problem is to remove the unit where the sink is, the problem is the main incoming pipe is lead and then there is a modern flexible hose welded into this which then feeds the cold tap. I do not want to touch this and I want to re-use the hose for the new taps. The hot is copper and I am confident with working with that using compression joints.
The problem is there is a valve I can attach to the existing cold water tap, currently there is no valve on it so the only way I can remove the sink is to shut of the entire water supply from the stop cock.
Do does anybody know of a valve I can attach to this existing flexi hose? I tried google but could only find the complete hose which is no good, as I don't know how to join anything to lead it is well beyond my limited plumbing skills.
Edit put this in wrong section, needs to be in non motoring.
Hang on, Kick --->
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 13:19
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Are you sure your water supplier won't replace a lead incoming main with something more modern. It might be worth asking the question?
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I always assumed that it was the water boards property up to boundary of the property but from there (e.g the garden etc) is the house holders responsibility. If so the cost of replacing it could be £1000s.
I will look into it though, if it can be replaced fairly cheaply (without it costing £1000s) now is time to do it. All the rest of the plumbing in the house is copper it is just the initial water mains that comes into the house that is lead.
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get a plumber in to sweat a stop valve onto the copper pipe, then do the rest of the job yourself in your own time.
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>> get a plumber in to sweat a stop valve onto the copper pipe, then do
>> the rest of the job yourself in your own time.
>>
Quoi? Vous voudriez un stop valve sur votre copper pipe avec sweat? Zut alors, Monsieur, Ca va vous couter cher.
*sucks teeth, flicks Gitanes butt on to floor, browses Citroen C6 brochure*
(Meanwhile in London.......ringring, ring ring.............Hello, Pimlico Plumbers, do I get the job?)
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>> get a plumber in to sweat a stop valve onto the copper pipe, then do
>> the rest of the job yourself in your own time.
Non. He is a plumber (Latin for lead: Plumbum; hence plumber - a man who works with lead). It is not copper onto which he will sweat it.
Rattle, I suggest you turn the water off to take the sink out. Then reattach the tap to the flexible pipe and leave it dangling. When you come to fit the new tap, turn the water off again.
And no, the water company will not pay to replace *your* lead piping. If you're moving out make sure that there's nowhere that the buyer's surveyor can see the lead pipe. If you can't do that, then replace the lead pipe. And you can do it yourself.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 14:00
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Yeah I will use a backup board with an opening for the stop cock valve. I can fit taps and make a few compression joints but that really is the limit of my plumbing. I did think about using the existing taps as the valve, but they are heavy would need to be supported.
Replacing the lead must surely be a big job, it would involve digging up the garden and I suspect hour supply pipe is very long I am not sure what route it takes into the house.
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>>Replacing the lead must surely be a big job
Annoying, but not difficult.
>> I can fit taps and make a few compression joints but that really is the limit of my plumbing.
Plumbing doesn't get more difficult than that. Maybe drilling a hole in a wall to mount a radiator. And you need to be handy with a sealant gun.
Honest, it's just meccano.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 14:09
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>> >>Replacing the lead must surely be a big job
>>
>> Annoying, but not difficult.
I am not sure I would claim that digging up the side of the house, all the way to the stop cock outside on the pavement, lay yards of pipe and then fill and remake whatever surface you dug up as "Annoying but not difficult"
I would probably claim it to be "one sodding great PITA when all wanted to do was fit a cheap kitchen unit"
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 15:12
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>>I would probably claim it to be "one sodding great PITA when all wanted to do was fit a cheap kitchen unit"
And I would not worry about the lead pipe. Ask an estate agent about it and see what they say.
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>> >> get a plumber in to sweat a stop valve onto the copper pipe, then
>> do
>> >> the rest of the job yourself in your own time.
>>
>>
>> Non. He is a plumber (Latin for lead: Plumbum; hence plumber - a man who
>> works with lead). It is not copper onto which he will sweat it.
It was a typo I meant the lead pipe of course.
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You might well be right Rattle, but as you say if you're going to do it then now should be the time. Worth asking the question I'd have thought.
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Looks it is the householder that owns the pipe just checked with United Utilities. There is a valve just below the flexipipe, just not on the flexipipe itself. Getting a plumber in is a last resort, the project is already over budget but if it will only cost £50 or so might be worth it.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 13:37
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>> There is a valve just below the flexipipe, just not on the flexipipe itself.
>> Getting a plumber in is a last resort, the project is already over budge
>> but if it will only cost £50 or so might be worth it.
>>
Rates may be cheaper in Man. I called a guy in to do a small gas job.
One hour = £120 About what I expected.
I would not worry about seeing a lead pipe. The suspect vast majority of properties have lead pipes. How has mankind survived ?
How about considering turning off the mains, chopping off the mess you have and starting with a nice clean connection, followed by a stop cock etc.
Why use copper pipe? Use plastic and save on elbows???
A Google of lead to copper show lots of info
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUt9CX3UKUe
A similar Google lead water pipe to plastic
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Do as crocks says... easy if the stopcock on the lead works OK.
Having said that... despite such under sink plumbing not being unusual in an old house... I would be tempted to dig up outside the wall where the supply enters and if you can see a decent bit of steel to connect on cut the whole lot out and replace with a new plastic pipe into the house and tidy up all the plumbing with secondary valves for each tee off.
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Don't touch the lead - that's a job for a REAL plumber. In Latin "Plumbum" is lead.
I am 100% with Mapmaker on this one:
"Even better, use one with a valve.
www.screwfix.com/p/15mm-isolating-valve-pack-of-10/32802 "
Every pipe leading to a tap or WC should have one.
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>> Don't touch the lead - that's a job for a REAL plumber. In Latin "Plumbum" is lead.
>>
From what I read/see REAL plumbers are not allowed to employ the old methods.
In any case it is too time consuming so was always doomed to be replaced by "O" ring connectors.
( see my earlier Youtube link.
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>> Every pipe leading to a tap or WC should have one.( valve)
>>
I agree and it is normal practice.
Beware valves with the screwdriver slots ( and maybe others ) from sheds if a high water flow is required. They are often in effect 10mm bore
I bought "proper ones" from a plumbers merchants that had a full flow. a little bulkier but they do a proper job. I needed maximum flow for an electric shower in a third floor flat.
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>>>main incoming pipe is lead and then there is a modern flexible hose welded into this which then feeds the cold tap
If it is as you say then it might be time to tidy up what sounds a bodge and have a new HP stopcock sweated onto the lead.
An image would help understand what sounds an unlikely setup.
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Hopefully these pictures will help. PS I best say this in case my mother kills me, this picture is by far far the worst part of the house. I plan to re plaster this wall (round the pipes). It is hidden inside a cupboard as well.
lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NEQlhwlZoLs/Uue8pcZPc6I/AAAAAAAAAA0/x5tV67jWcns/w1052-h789-no/P1000098.JPG
lh6.googleusercontent.com/-IYnxDVv7fVQ/Uue80w1GRzI/AAAAAAAAAA8/oBE8j5rEf9g/w1052-h789-no/P1000099.JPG
I will also place the earth bonding as it is pretty hopefully at the moment. The rubble is damage due to brickwork we had done on the outside of that wall (we had a layer of cement removed and replaced with bricks, as the cement was a bodge for when a window was once fitted many years ago).
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 14:28
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Those photos show a mess but not an un-typical one.
In your first post you say the flexi is welded to the lead but the photo shows it is screwed in.
My solution, if I didn't want to call a plumber in, would be to unscrew the flexi and fit a 1/2" brass nipple like this.
www.screwfix.com/p/brass-hexagon-nipple/71087
And then use a new 1/2" to tap flexi with a valve in it.
You might even find a 1/2" male to tap flexi.
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Thanks just noticed that, I will speak to a mate of mine who is studying plumbing first (don't know him that well, but know him from the punk since and via mates) to see if he is on hand to help if I start it and realise it is too big a job for somebody like me.
I could do with buying a tap wrench which might make access easier.
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You don't say what is on the other end of the flexi. But if it is a 1/2" tap connector then you could use a male coupler like this.
www.screwfix.com/p/male-coupler-15mm-x/69358
Just connect it to the flexi in place of the existing tap. Then add a new 15mm to tap flexi with a valve.
This won't be tidy but avoids touching the connection to the lead.
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Thanks, I will buy a few 15mm couplers and other compression fittings. Always handy to have in, what usually happens is I discover I need something in am emergency and don't have it. I have lots of electrical spares, but zero plumbing spares.
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Be aware that although that 1/2" nipple may look similar to a 15mm compression joint with the nuts taken off it isn't the same. The compression joint is designed to seal on the angled olive surface and may have little flat surface on the end. The nipple, like the end of a typical tap, has a larger surface to seal against a rubber or fibre washer.
You can use a compression joint body instead of a nipple (and I have as a temporary measure ) but it is a bodge and much more difficult to get to seal.
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>>>but it is a bodge and much more difficult to get to seal.<<
Never had a problem making it seal, but I would question the long term prospects!
The lead connected stopcock looks like a disaster waiting to happen if you try to turn it off, or undo the household end. Disturbing it may find leaks in places you had not thought of. If you are not replacing the lead pipe, I would still replace that valve.
Do not even think of using the dirt cheap Screwfix isolating valves shown above on mains pressure water. Sometime down the line you will regret not using good quarter turn lever valves. If you keep a stock of full flow gas rated valves you will find that you use them.
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Question are you on a water meter?
Probably worth it if you are 3 in the household, and do not have regular/ frequent baths :). They may reinstall the pipe when fitting one - or if the outside location is difficult they may put the meter under the sink - giving you nice new stop valves and a lengtho 15mm to join onto.
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Wed 29 Jan 14 at 08:27
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>> Question are you on a water meter?
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>>They may reinstall the pipe when fitting one - or if the outside location is difficult they may put the meter under the sink - giving you nice new stop valves and a lengtho 15mm to join onto.
>>
Worth enquiring.
My recent experience of water meters being installed.
Was told there are now several options/types of meter.
I said do it in the road which they were not to keen to do " new under sink meters can be remotely read".
TWO meters required in daughters flat.
1. under sink. plastic stop cocks each side of the meter and push fit 15mm plastic connectors.
2. similar but with FOUR 10mm elbows.
I told them to come and sort it. A proper job or take it out.
A guy came, started again from scratch, did it exactly as asked so very pleased.
He did mumble about the previous effort. Did it all in copper with no elbows and normal stopcock.
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>>- giving you nice new stop valves and a length of 15mm to join onto.
>>
When I had water meters fitted I had not quite finished the mains plumbing.
The guy would not do the job as he was not able to test the flow ( to tank or tap) when he had completed his installation.
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>>>Do not even think of using the dirt cheap Screwfix isolating valves shown above on mains pressure water
Can't agree. They are being used as a valve for convenience and are secondary to the mains stop valve. In the unlikely situation one should fail to turn then it is little trouble to turn off at the mains and replace.
In fact it is often more trouble to replace an isolation valve on the hot water or tank fed cold side as a drain down of the pipework or loft tanks (if they don't have outlet valves or those valves are seized) is a far bigger job than just turning the mains off.
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>>Can't agree. They are being used as a valve for convenience <<
They will leak around the screw slot head!
They have had some batch problems with insufficient thread bite - you could only get less than 1/2 a turn on!
Ask yourself why Pegler and Conex cost more than 5x.
If you buy 10 they are not reqally suitable for low pressure systems.
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cont....
If you look at the the Screwfix reviews you will find that they seem to have batch problems - some bad reviews some good!
PS R&S if you do use these make sure you fit them the correct way round - particularly under mains pressure!
community.screwfix.com/threads/screwfix-isolation-valve-nightmare.66980/ and read post 10:)
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Wed 29 Jan 14 at 09:47
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>>community.screwfix.com/threads/screwfix-isolation-valve-nightmare.66980/ and read post 10:)
Bloke there raving about Plumb centre ones. I bought some of those and they all leaked.
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>>>They will leak around the screw slot head!
Or as in my experience they won't.
That forum thread you linked has one guy saying he can't get them to seal to the pipe and the replies seem to indicate another guy has fitted 500 without fault and a further guy has never had a problem with them. Oh there is a guy who says they can leak round the spindle in central heating situations... but who would use them for that?
This house had the kitchen & bathrooms updated 10yrs ago. There are 15 unbranded "cheap" isolator valves on the taps, toilets & machine supplies. I checked them all when we bought the house 2yrs ago and all move freely plus no leaks.
I can only speak from experience.
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>>I can only speak from experience.<<
Interesting that all the ones that you have are 10 +yrs old. I used to use them 15 years ago and at one time ould probably have endorsed your view. However having used them in the last 5 years and have modified my experience accordingly.
There are many examples of Screwfix products not being as good now as they were when they first started up.
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>> Thanks, I will buy a few 15mm couplers and other compression fittings
>>
I recently had to do extensive plumbing alterations at short notice.
I was faced with a mixture of copper piping and some plastic piping.
The plastic had single use fittings. The pipe was quite rigid and awkward to keep located l
For speed and a lack of a pipe bender I used re-useable plastic push fit connectors/elbows and copper piper. Very very easy to use.
I have no idea re modern plastic pipe but I suspect it is thinner walled.
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>>My solution, if I didn't want to call a plumber in, would be to unscrew the flexi and fit a
>>1/2" brass nipple like this
Even better, use one with a valve.
www.screwfix.com/p/15mm-isolating-valve-pack-of-10/32802
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>>main incoming pipe is lead and then there is a modern flexible hose welded into
>> this which then feeds the cold tap
Not sure what this flexible hose thing is
>> If it is as you say then it might be time to tidy up what sounds a bodge and have a new HP stopcock sweated onto the lead.
>>
Sweating seems to be illegal now - seriously.
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Thanks for all the helpful replies I am just a little confused now, some people seem to be on of the opinion that I should not attempt to the remove the flexipipe that is screwed onto the lead pipe or have I just miss understood that?
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I don't know what type of taps you're using but a lot of mixers come with flexible braided ' tails ' already fitted. When I did mine, I used plastic flexy pipe to a point just above bottom of cupboard height. I then went into 15mm copper to an inch below the bottom of the flexi tails.
Fitted a pair of shut off valves then attached the tap flexis. The copper was clipped against the back of the cupboard with open fronted clips so it could be pulled away if needed. I used the screwdriver type valves...I've never had a problem with them...although non of my stuff is Screwfix.
Don't forget to put the inserts in the plastic flexi pipe or you might come back from holiday with the house flooded. I think you can get braided flexis for ordinary taps. I'm not sure of the bore of these but I think mine are 8mm. They seem to give a very good flow rate.
I can wipe a lead/copper joint, but apparently I'm not allowed to now ! My stepfather was a plumber with Manchester Corporation and he used to wipe a lead joint using just his thumb on the molten lead.......I use a piece of cardboard.....not that daft !
If you want me to pop round and have a look...I'm quite happy to.
HO
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>>some people seem to be on of the opinion that I should not attempt to the remove the flexipipe that is screwed
Sure you've misunderstood. These flexipipes have a limited lifespan anyway, so I'd always replace them. You don't care of course... ;)
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Thanks Ted. , If it is just a screw fitting in that lead it shouldn't be a problem :). We might still be staying here so I want to the job to last.
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Valves for tap hose - PeterS
