| Non-motoring > Plumbers wanted (who speak French) | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: henry k | Replies: 23 |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 10:04
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - henry k
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www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10600331/Wanted-French-speaking-plumbers-for-tax-exiles.html Another indication that upping taxes has an effect on migration ? It has been reported that key people decamped to Switzerland when the UK implemented the last 50p tax level. France seems to be shooting itself in the foot with their tax levels. Another Balls up planned. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 10:34
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Alanovich
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| Sadly, I can only fulfill half that requirement. I have the plumbing ability of a drunk squirrel on a skateboard. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 10:36
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Bromptonaut
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>> It has been reported that key people decamped to Switzerland when the UK implemented the >> last 50p tax level. >> France seems to be shooting itself in the foot with their tax levels. >> Another Balls up planned. Up to a point. There were already thousands of French in London during the poison dwarf's reign. Mostly in banking, insurance etc where French outfits have a London operation. Of course there are some tax exiles but probably not on scale the article suggests. French taxes generally ar higher than ours and Hollande's 'super tax' is an order of magnitude more than Balls is prescribing. Top rate of 60% prevailed here for nearly all of the blessed Maggie's reign - it only went in the 1998 budget. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 10:53
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Mapmaker
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>>Top rate of 60% prevailed here for nearly all of the blessed Maggie's reign - it only went in the 1998 budget. *1988* budget. And you're not quite right. The top rate was 83% for part of her reign. Reduction from 83% to 60% happened soon after she came to power. That *more than doubled* the take-home pay of the wealthiest. Eventual reduction to 40% from 60% in the 1988 budget I think was not a particularly sensible way of doing it, as it caused a house-price boom, with higher-rate taxpayers receiving a 50% payrise overnight. You tinker with the top rate of tax at your peril. I think 40% is about right; 50% (plus 2% NI) means that the state gets more than you do. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 11:39
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Bromptonaut
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>> You tinker with the top rate of tax at your peril. I think 40% is >> about right; 50% (plus 2% NI) means that the state gets more than you do. Only on income above £150k. Even in London that's a pretty good whack. More than three times my final salary and above the PM salary benchmark for ANY Public Sector salary. A pint of milk costs the same whether you're a healthcare assistant or an investment banker. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 11:55
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Cliff Pope
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>> >> A pint of milk costs the same whether you're a healthcare assistant or an investment >> banker. >> >> A healthcare assistant might have to work for 5 minutes to obtain a pint of milk, an investment banker probably only needs to blink. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 11:57
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - MJM
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>>A pint of milk costs the same whether you're a healthcare assistant or an investment banker. << But you can choose whether to buy a pint of milk or not. Have the money legally removed from you by the government and you have no say in how your earnings are spent. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 12:37
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - PeterS
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I think the 50% rate is too high; didn't Treasury figures show that total declared income >£150k actually fell when the 50% rate was introduced? But what I find more distasteful (and illogical) is that if you earn >£100k you're personal allowance is taken away at a rate of £1 for every £2 earned, and you're taxed at 40%' plus 2% NI. That's a marginal tax rate of 62% on a £101k salary. While I accept that still a decent salary, and pension contributions will offset the impact if this, it's still crazy IMO. Almost two thirds of what you earn going to HMRC... Edit-: a quick google shows that the BBC reported, from an HMRC report, that total declared taxable income >£150k fell from £116 billion in 2009/10 to £87 billion in 2010/11. Now I'm sure that wasn't just the 50% rate - I expect bankers bonuses were less that year as well ;-) www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17465733 Last edited by: PeterS on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 12:40
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 12:55
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Bromptonaut
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>> I think the 50% rate is too high; didn't Treasury figures show that total declared >> income >£150k actually fell when the 50% rate was introduced? The last government foolishly trailed the 50& rate well in advance while the Tories quickly committed to reduce to 45%. Result was that those with scope to move income between years had ample opportunity to do so. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 13:12
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - PeterS
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Oh indeed, but a lot of people in that space have the opportunity to move income between salary, bonus and dividends, and defer to future tax years or turn into a capital gain, so it was never going to work particularly well. It only really bites hard on people on straightforward PAYE, who I'd guess make a disproportionately small slice of taxpayers in that bracket relative to the general taxpayer population. As well as that there are those who will trade salary for longer holidays/shorter hours to avoid it as well in my experience. In addition from what I see it's also also lead to high salary inflation in that space; the number of jobs paying £100k to £120k is definitely lower than it used to be, and those jobs aren't now paying less... |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 14:07
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Mapmaker
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>>Only on income above £150k. It still means that the state gets more than you do. It reaches the point that it just doesn't feel worth making the extra effort. If you're VAT registered, don't forget that you've an effective 60% tax rate. It's a very painful amount of money to spend. On decent earnings, people don't think twice about paying 20% tax (the corporation tax/basic income tax rate). They do think twice about 40%. 60% makes them think they won't bother. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 14:41
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Bromptonaut
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>> If you're VAT registered, don't forget that you've an effective 60% tax rate. Can you explain that for me? You know far more about this stuff than I do but surely the VAT is is an end user tax paid by the customer with tax on wholesale supplies/raw materials being reclaimable. >> It's a very painful amount of money to spend. On decent earnings, people don't think >> twice about paying 20% tax (the corporation tax/basic income tax rate). They do think twice >> about 40%. 60% makes them think they won't bother. I was a whisker below the 40% rate in my last job and can say with absolute certainty that prospect of 40% was no deterrent to making effort to be on the 'exceptional performer' increments. Nor would it deter me from seeking promotion. The difference between current 45% and 50% is £5 on earnings of £100. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 15:12
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Mapmaker
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>> surely the VAT is is an end user tax Myth. Where the supply is of services rather than goods then VAT is a pure tax on the supplier. Brompton needs somebody to fix a problem with his bike. There are two bicycle shops in the village, VAT-registered-Victor and Non-VAT-registered-Norman. The going rate for fixing a bicycle is £60. Brompton has £60 in his wallet. He's happy to pay £60 - it's all the money he has in the world anyway. He goes to Non-registered-Norman for a quotation. Norman sucks his teeth and says "That'll be £60." Then he tried VAT-registered-Victor. Victor sucks his teeth and says, "That'll be £60." Great says Brompton. Victor says, "Oh and by the way there's an extra 20% to go on that £60. It's an end-user-paid tax, so you don't mind, do you?" Uh Oh. Brompton says, "Sorry old chum, that's £60 all-in." VAT-registered-Victor says, "You've been talking to Norman haven't you. It's almost impossible for me to compete with him once I've paid my taxes. Everybody thinks it's an end-user-paid tax, but it's really me that bears it. You give me £60 and I have to give £10 to Mr Osborne, so I'm left with only £50 for doing the same job as Norman gets £60 for." "In fact," he goes on, crying into his WD40, of which he proceeds to take a good slug, "I'll get nothing like £50 as nice M. Millibande will charge me 50% tax (on my marginal profits) and I get to pay 2% NI as well. So it leaves me with just £24 of every £60 you give me which is a 60% effective tax rate. Don't get me wrong, I do quite well, but you think I'm earning £60 per hour and resent paying me that much, whereas actually I'm only getting £24, which is only three times the minimum wage and considerably less than half of what you're giving me. It's a lot of extra work for relatively not much extra reward. Norman just pays 20% corporation tax and pays himself a dividend so he gets to keep £48 per hour. It's because he's a lazy so and so and doesn't bother working long hours, but it means he gets paid twice as much as I do for fixing your bike." >>and can say with absolute certainty that prospect of 40% was no deterrent to making >>effort to be on the 'exceptional performer' increments. Nor would it deter me from seeking >>promotion. The difference between current 45% and 50% is £5 on earnings of £100. Of course not, as it didn't make any difference to the amount of work you did. Still 9 to 5, 46 weeks a year. Every extra pound earned is an extra 60p (50p, whatever) to spend. BUT, if you're self-employed and deciding whether to double the number of hours you work, and borrow a million from the bank in order to double the size of your business, and you will have to pay almost two thirds of your extra profit to the Treasury it's a real disincentive to expansion. Better off doing shorter hours and fettling your own cars and doing your own plumbing work - all of which things you quite enjoy - rather than paying somebody else to do it. >>The difference between current 45% and 50% is £5 on earnings of £100. Yes, a 10% pay cut (on your top slice of income). The difference between taking home £53 and £48. And at 40% (and no 2% NI hike) you would have taken home £60, so actually that's a 20% pay cut. Jean Baptiste Colbert (as Finance Minister of Louis XIV) famously said “The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing.” Each time you take more feathers you run the risk of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. (Or something.) “We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.” WSC. Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 15:14
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 15:56
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Bromptonaut
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I see where you're coming from MM, any reason why Victor could not arrange his affairs in same way as Norman and take pay as dividends? Also he could presumably reclaim VAT he paid on parts and supplies including the WD40* (unless zero rated when consumed as foodstuff!). And if you think as a Grade 6/7 on a bill team or in a Minister's office I'd still be 9-5 you need a reality check!! |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 18:01
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Mapmaker
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>> I see where you're coming from MM, any reason why Victor could not arrange his >> affairs in same way as Norman and take pay as dividends? Yes. That would save him his 2% NI. Not really a big deal, is it. >> Also he could presumably >> reclaim VAT he paid on parts and supplies including the WD40* (unless zero rated when >> consumed as foodstuff!). Yes. BUT my point is that for an artisan or professional there are few if any such items. The reality is that he'll be invoicing you for any parts too - ever seen an invoice from a garage?! >> And if you think as a Grade 6/7 on a bill team or in a >> Minister's office I'd still be 9-5 you need a reality check!! The minutiae of civil service politics isn't really the point, is it! (I don't understand any of the jargon, sorry, but it's irrelevant.) Most employed people don't see a massive increase in workload with promotion. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 18:36
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Bromptonaut
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>> Yes. That would save him his 2% NI. Not really a big deal, is it. Apologies. Your earlier post about him paying 'only 20% Corporation Tax mislead me. Is NI really only 2% for self employed? While I struggle to make sense of jargon about Upper and Lower Earning limits in the tables it feel nearer to 10% under PAYE. >> Yes. BUT my point is that for an artisan or professional there are few if >> any such items. The reality is that he'll be invoicing you for any parts too >> - ever seen an invoice from a garage? I drove my Xantia after what turned out to be it's sell by date so I've seen plenty invoices. The VAT is itemised and I understand my garage man is acting as a tax collector, but that he offsets any VAT he pays to GSF or whoever. >> The minutiae of civil service politics isn't really the point, is it! (I don't understand >> any of the jargon, sorry, but it's irrelevant.) Most employed people don't see a massive >> increase in workload with promotion. My last job was as Operations Manager in a quango. Lots of variation, writing stuff for the Chairman one minute and sorting out glitches in VC kit the next. Organising a conference for 200 with one hand and sorting out a Parliamentary Question with the other. Promoted I'd have been in a Ministers Office or deputy responsible for a government bill sitting in that box next to the Speaker 'til late at night. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 18:37
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 19:18
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Mapmaker
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>>While I struggle to make sense of jargon about Upper and Lower Earning limits in the tables We're comparing apples with pears a bit. It's hard to make any sense. I hope I've got this right, too, I hate NI as it's so complicated and I never do it. But for a person who is already earning £150,000, then the difference in his marginal tax rate between using a company/dividends and being self employed is the 2% national insurance (class 4 rates above upper profits limit). i.e. 60% plays 58% (including the VAT cost and assuming a 50% tax rate). For somebody who doesn't earn enough to make him a higher-rate taxpayer who uses a company, then his marginal tax rate is 20% - being corporation tax. (No NI at all to pay.) >>The VAT is itemised and I understand my garage man is acting as a tax collector, but that >>he offsets any VAT he pays to GSF or whoever. You're missing the point. Let's assume he's making no profit on the parts (he won't make much and it's just confusing the issue). You are correct with the offsetting. However it's not he parts where he's making his profit, so this is of no benefit to him. He's making his money on his hourly chargeout rate. This is pure profit as there are (pretty much) no expenses - all his significant additional costs he is charging on to you. Other than VAT; as Norman next door doesn't suffer it so makes the extra profit himself. VAT is a tax on profits. It is VALUE ADDED tax; so the tax arises when you ADD VALUE by doing something creative, not on buying something in. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 19:27
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Mapmaker
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Let's illustrate the VALUE ADDED point. A tree grows in the wood. The farmer cuts it down and sells it for £100 plus £20 VAT. His profit is £100. He sells it to a wood merchant who lets it season and then sells it to a sawmill for £200 plus £40 of VAT. The wood merchant receives £40 VAT and suffered £20 VAT so pays £20 to the VATman. His profit was £100. The sawmill sells the planks of wood to a furniture maker for £300 plus £60 of VAT. The sawmill receives £60 VAT and suffered £40 VAT so pays £20 to the VATman. His profit was £100. The furniture maker sells a table to Victor's shop for £400 plus £80 of VAT. The furniture maker receives £80 VAT and suffered £60 so pays £20 to the VATman. His profit was £100. Victor's shop sells it to you for £500 plus £100 of VAT. Victor's shop receives £100 VAT and suffered £80 so pays £20 to the VATman. Victor's profit was £100. Each person added £100 of value; each therefore contributed £20 to the VATman. Aha, you say, it was the end user who paid £100 VAT; you suffered it. Well, up to a point. Because... you could have gone to the artisan furniture maker next door who grows his own trees, seasons them, chops them up and makes tables he sells directly to you. And you'd have paid the same £600 as it's the market price for the table. Mr (Norman) Artisan managed to make himself £600 of profit. The five people in the chain above made £500 each. What happened to the other £100? Well the five people in the chain above all added £100 of value each, so they were taxed £20 each with Value Added Tax. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 12:24
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Zero
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>> >> It has been reported that key people decamped to Switzerland when the UK implemented >> the >> >> last 50p tax level. >> >> France seems to be shooting itself in the foot with their tax levels. >> >> Another Balls up planned. >> >> Up to a point. There were already thousands of French in London during the poison >> dwarf's reign. Mostly in banking, insurance etc where French outfits have a London operation. Of >> course there are some tax exiles but probably not on scale the article suggests. estimates put the French population at anywhere between 300,000 and 400,000 citizens. So many that there is now an official northern europe constituency in the French parliament, with their MP based in London. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 10:37
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Mapmaker
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This has been going on for ages. South Ken is now entirely French thanks to M. Hollande. (It is surprising that M. Millibande has not realised the correlation, but hey... this is nothing to do with raising money for the country and everything to do with ) But the surprise to me is that plumbers are being paid 120k-150 as a salary (as opposed to self-employed plumbers). I mentioned this article to a colleague earlier, who said that a pal of his had just moved from Wales to work for Pimlico Plumbers and was on 80k. (Well in excess of four times what he was on in Wales.) I think I will polish up my French and retrain as a plumber. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 11:23
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - RattleandSmoke
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| Even in here in Manchester you see a lot of French registered cars, a few years ago that was unheard off. The big thing here though seems to be Italians and Spanish now. |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 19:30
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - MJW1994
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>> Even in here in Manchester you see a lot of French registered cars, Have the AA and RAC suddenly become much busier? |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 14:37
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Haywain
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| I thought we were going to be invaded by Polish plumbers who would bring down the cost of a burst pipe. Is the problem that they don't speak French? |
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New Tue 28 Jan 14 17:09
Plumbers wanted (who speak French) - Armel Coussine
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I can speak French and discovered in the past that I am pretty good at amateur plumbing. But I would need to be starving to do any plumbing for anyone else, especially if I had to speak French at the same time. I know a handyman who can do all sorts of plumbing, building and carpentry and who, living in Brittany to which his parents have retired, now speaks Breton (incomprehensible to me) quite fluently. His Breton neighbours look on me with contempt as a Parisian ponce. |
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