I think I really am. Which is why I saw Mrs Abramovitch on her seat and thought nothing of it.
www.standard.co.uk/news/celebritynews/roman-abramovichs-girlfriend-dasha-zhukova-apologises-for-black-woman-chair-photo-9073988.html
This picture got the liberal lot up in arms. If we accept Mrs Abramovitch's argument that she is against racism, then the only racists around here are the liberals who notice the colour of the 'seat'.
That said, maybe I'm just stupid, as the artist "reinterprets art historical works from artist Allen Jones as a commentary on gender and racial politics.”
|
>> No, but I'm deaf!
What.
|
The chair itself looks to be in poor taste and it's possible the woman's face might be caricature of that of a black woman. Without having seen the others in the collection I'd reserve judgement on whether it might be construed as racist in itself
Even I cannot see anything in Roman's lady friend's sitting on it that might be construed as racism.
Maybe an American thing about 'dissing' Martin Luther King day in some way?
|
^^ This is why I always tick "Refuse to say" on any form of data collection that asks for ethnicity. The longer we keep looking for racism, the longer it's going to be a menace in our society.
And, to be honest, I think it's only an issue for the older generation - I'm in my 20's and colour has never "meant" anything to me or my friends, which is why we find being questioned about ethnicity faintly insulting.
Don't see anything racist in this picture; nor I suspect do any black people. The only people who are getting wound up about it are middle-aged white liberals who are deliberately seeking to be offended on someone else's behalf. Probably closet racists IMHO.
|
|
Why is it racist but not sexist?
|
|
IMHO, It's being a bit 'chairist'. It's an insult to Chippendale.
|
>> IMHO, It's being a bit 'chairist'. It's an insult to Chippendale.
Do you mean it's depriving male strippers of work?
|
"Do you mean it's depriving male strippers of work?"
Er….. yes, that as well ;-)
|
>> ^^ This is why I always tick "Refuse to say" on any form of data
>> collection that asks for ethnicity. The longer we keep looking for racism, the longer it's
>> going to be a menace in our society.
With greatest respect FF the idea that it's not there and can be ignored unless we look for it is incredibly naive.
You are I assume white, male, Anglo-Saxon and capable of passing yourself as a CofE Protestant. I am too. In the food chain of racism (and sexism) you and I are Blue Whales!!
For example, simple observation tells us that ethnic minorities (and women) are under represented in the higher echelons of society and the professions. How many BME Captains are there in your airline? I supect about the same number as I saw in the senior Civil Service, the Judiciary or leading counsel. It's arguable in the case of lawyers and therefore the Judiciary, where senior people are likely to have entered the profession thirty years ago that the problem is historic and far greater numbers are present amongst the next generation.
Unless we monitor for it we'll never know or be able to ask why and take steps to rectify. And that's not just about 'equality', racism and sexism lead to a huge pool of talent being overlooked.
I've witnessed racism from the blatant to casual assumptions far too often to believe for a moment that we don't need to look for it and tackle it with fire.
>>
>> And, to be honest, I think it's only an issue for the older generation -
>> I'm in my 20's and colour has never "meant" anything to me or my friends,
>> which is why we find being questioned about ethnicity faintly insulting.
Up to a point that's true, at least among those with a middle class upbringing, though even then it's frequently only skin deep/ill concealed.
My kids are 19 and 21 and have no thought of racism and have friends and Uni house mates from minority groups. Which leads me to ask if you ever spoke to BME fellow students (for example) about their experiences. My daughter has and the stuff that's disclosed both about discrimination/abuse and on the other hand cultural expectations placed on them is illuminating.
I was in Sheffield last summer when the right (can't remeber if it was BNP or Eng Nats) were marching following the Woolwich murder. Now while I'd be careful not to get involved in a stooshie there were two Asian girls in daughter's house too frightened to go outdoors. A question elecited information that this was based on previous experience in their north Lancs home town.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 11:00
|
>>
>>
>> Unless we monitor for it we'll never know or be able to ask why and
>> take steps to rectify.
I once had a black South African colleague in the GLC who refused to fill in the race form.
He said he had just escaped from a country where he was classified by colour.
|
I could google it I guess. But what on earth is BME?
I'm fascinated to hear you agree with me though, Brompton.
I live in a very multi-ethnic corner of Britain (in north Southwark); possibly the most multi-ethnic part of Britain - though Tower Hamlets may pip it to the post.
I went to a 'community event' at the Tate Modern recently, and there was an ethnicity survey. Needless to say everybody was what an American would call a WASP. The temptation to tick the 'Black African' box in the survey was high... as no doubt somebody would have been delighted to have achieved the presence of one such.
|
I can remember when those chairs were made. People made a fuss about them then too.
I can't say I blame them. Trendy as all come up perhaps, but ugly and unpleasant.
|
BME???
and now WASP.
Did they buzz around in black and yellow hooped garments, and sting people? If that's the case, I don't think I like them.
|
|
BME - a defunct airline, innit?
|
Mapmaker,
BME = Black and Minority Ethnic.
|
>>
>> BME = Black and Minority Ethnic.
>>
Notice the apparently acceptable use the "e" word. Why not just black and minority?
|
>> Notice the apparently acceptable use the "e" word. Why not just black and minority?
>>
>>
Ah....but only in the correct order. You can say BME, but not BEM....and that's only for now, it will change soon.
|
>> Ah....but only in the correct order. You can say BME, but not BEM....and that's only
>> for now, it will change soon.
All terminology changes over time. Ask Meldrew or Fursty about Overshoot and Go Around.
|
Daughter just applied for a part time job at her uni. Nice simple one page A4 application form..... plus 2 pages of A4 diversity form with just about every combination of ethnic background, sexuality and religion you could think of.
Crazy.
|
>> With greatest respect FF the idea that it's not there and can be ignored unless
>> we look for it is incredibly naive.
I think FF is right, because 'looking for it' creates it as well. The young of today don't really see it, so why should we.
If it becomes obvious, fair enough sit on it, we have the legislation to achieve that..and rightly so.
>> For example, simple observation tells us that ethnic minorities (and women) are under represented in
>> the higher echelons of society and the professions.
Yes, for many, many reasons, not just 'isms'.
For example, women's careers versus bringing up children. It's a complex and difficult area that cannot be solved by falsely promoting women to top jobs just to have one there.
Why do some people from BME backgrounds do well..and others not?
If you look at Idi Amin's cast off Indian Asians, generally as a group they've done exceptionally well. Mum and dad worked every hour going in the shop...so that their children and grandchildren could be lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, accountants, etc..and good luck to them, I admire them.
..yet other people's of immigrant origins have stagnated and not done well..why is that?
You cannot blame it all on racism. There are cultural and social issues all in there as well.
>> Unless we monitor for it we'll never know or be able to ask why and
>> take steps to rectify.
You could in theory argue that it is being racist by even recording it and monitoring it, as after all we're all human beings first, aren't we?
I don't want people 'put in' to roles just because they are female, black, gay or whatever the issue is. I want the best person for the job, whoever they may be.
If you look at many hospitals, they are full of Indian/Asian heritaged people in the medical type roles, far more than the 5.5% listed as being in the general population..ditto the chemists, etc, etc. Who cares? I just want a competent doctor.
Now if there's under representation for other races..why?...they have the same chances as the Indians...don't they?
Making it easier for some to join the club, just dilutes the pool and insults those that have achieved. Encourage the under achievers to achieve the bar, with the knowledge that not all can/will.
|
WP
In a sense I'm not so far away from you on this. I'm certainly not advocating positive discrimination but 'isms' can manifest themselves without being obvious.
I also accept that culture may have a part to play in under representation. The daughter's flatmate is a Sikh doing a law degree. All things being equal she might expect to go on to do the common Bar/Solicitor legal course and articles or pupillage. The cultural expectation is that she'll go home and live with her Mother until such time as she marries. While she's lived in mixed halls and flatshares at Uni it would apparently be seen as shameful to do so afterwards.
That sort of thing and the differing attitudes to education you mention might explain some cases. But unless you monitor for it and THEN look for reasons for discrepancies you cannot move forward. Neither can you show compliance with the equalities legislation we both agree is a good thing in principle.
Nothing racist in the sort of information gathering Fenlander describes. It would take me seconds to tick Male, White English, Hetero and No Religion. The tick box is computer readable so processing time is next to nil. So long as there's an option along lines of 'prefer not to say' I cannot see the problem.
|
>> Nothing racist in the sort of information gathering Fenlander describes. It would take me seconds
>> to tick Male, White English, Hetero and No Religion. The tick box is computer readable
>> so processing time is next to nil. So long as there's an option along lines
>> of 'prefer not to say' I cannot see the problem.
>>
For some reason that racial form filling irritates me.
|
|
I'm ethnically English (with a touch of Irish) - so there
|
>> >>
>> For some reason that racial form filling irritates me.
>>
>>
It irritated me, and it deeply saddened my black colleague. It made him doubt whether England was a free country after all.
|
>>BME = Black and Minority Ethnic
Thanks. I've not got the foggiest what it means. (Well, obviously I have a good idea, thanks to the context.)
Does it mean non-white? And if so, why not say it?
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 15:14
|
At uni daughter is in a house and community that is very mixed with regard to nationalities. She gets on with them all really well and race isn't an issue for her. Except many call her whitey which is also the word they use to describle someone who can't handle cannabis.
The students of african and caribbean origin often refer to themselves by the N word (ending ..ar) as some sort of badge of honour elevating their cool status above the whiteys.
|
"The students of african and caribbean origin often refer to themselves by the N word (ending ..ar) as some sort of badge of honour elevating their cool status above the whiteys."
I just hope that she doesn't call them the N word, even in fun, or some PC person will report her.
Tell her to go steady on the cannabis - it can cause psychological problems in some users REGARDLESS of race. It certainly didn't do my son any favours.
|
>>>I just hope that she doesn't call them the N word, even in fun, or some PC person will report her.
No she's well brought up to know when respect for PC matters is required... however daft it may seem she shouldn't utter up type a word they throw about in conversation and on twitter all the while.
>>>Tell her to go steady on the cannabis - it can cause psychological problems in some users REGARDLESS of race. It certainly didn't do my son any favours.
Thankfully she's not a user and somewhat annoyed/bemused by those that do. She's looking forward to getting out of halls next sept into a house of 4-6 friends who are non users.
|
>> Thanks. I've not got the foggiest what it means. (Well, obviously I have a good
>> idea, thanks to the context.)
>>
>> Does it mean non-white? And if so, why not say it?
>>
To some extent it's a 'term of art' used for a variety of purposes, particularly monitoring equality legislation and policies.
I've just left all this sort of thing behind and I'm not about to try and become an expert now. Such knowledge as I have comes from work training - a day or so at Millbank just after 9/11.
AIU the starting point was essentially 'non-white' people, particularly second third generation who are no more immigrants than I am. The majority, but not all, were happy to be described as 'Black'. The full description was to satisfy those who were not and less obvious groups who then joined in saying they also identify as an ethnic minority. The Irish are most obvious such group RR of this parish has posted stuff in past that might explain why. Greek and Turkish Cypriots and some Commonwealth people did so too.
Initial the letters were differently orderd as BEM. After a few years there was pressure to use BME instead as Minority should have priority over Ethnicity.
In spite of being in a public sector supposedly obsessed with this sort of stuff I doubt it's taken up more than a handful of hours in any one year.
|
I bet the job training was public funded though.
Pat
|
>> I bet the job training was public funded though.
>>
>> Pat
PAt,
It was funded by the employer, then the Lord Chancellor's Department. As you might expect since it was mandatory. There was a massive push on it after the MacPherson report found the Met Police 'institutionally racist'.
I appreciate self employed lorry drivers have to pay for their own CPD but do those employed by likes of Hoyer, the big logistics firm or outfits like GB's where there's a factory run fleet?
Unless they've taken a lead from Ryanair and forced people to pay for themselves.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 16:18
|
My observation had absolutely nothing to do with the comparison to lorry drivers you make Bromp...and it really is just a cheap shot.
I'm against public money being used to fund something like that, when all it does is seek to make the problem far more difficult than it has to be.
BTW, there is no public funding for lorry driver's training, and if the employer pays it is very different from a public fund.
Pat
|
Pda, I agree with Brompton. That was an unpleasant and cheap shot at him.
If you go to work you have to do the job you're given.
>>AIU the starting point was essentially 'non-white' people, particularly second third
>>generation who are no more immigrants than I am. The majority, but not all, were happy
>>to be described as 'Black'.
I find that very difficult to believe. What about Indians and Chinese? Red Indians and Aborigines?
And where do the southern Spanish fit into this? Christian European they may have been for centuries, but their skin colour reminds us of the Moorish invasions.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 16:29
|
>>Pda, I agree with Brompton. That was an unpleasant and cheap shot at him.
<<
Much like yours about the girl sitting on DLT's knee???
Pat
|
>> My observation had absolutely nothing to do with the comparison to lorry drivers you make
>> Bromp...and it really is just a cheap shot.
Are you saying i was getting a cheap shot or admitting to one yourself? Don't think assumption that you were commenting on employer funded training (in my case employer was the state) v compulsory CPD for self employed drivers that they have to pay for was unreasonable.
>> I'm against public money being used to fund something like that, when all it does
>> is seek to make the problem far more difficult than it has to be.
In what possible way does it make the problem worse? It might draw some people out of their Nelsonian 'I see no discrimination' comfort zone and mindset but that's a good thing. Daylight is the best disinfectant and all that. Working in groups discussing examples of discrimination with 'BME' colleagues was illuminating.
>> BTW, there is no public funding for lorry driver's training, and if the employer pays
>> it is very different from a public fund.
Not if the public sector is the employer.
>> Pat
>>
|
>> I bet the job training was public funded though.
>>
>> Pat
>>
This is one of those irregular verbs, isn't it?
I make sensible and justified points.
You're sarcastic.
He's picking fights.
Tut.
|
It's really vey easy to see why we don't see L'es, Dutchie, GB and many, many more here anymore....
Pat
|
|
Pat, your comment to Bromps can and has been construed as quite harsh. In what way is it any more justifiable than mine on the other thread? What makes you think my comment is more likely to be at the root of people leaving the board than yours? They are of the same nature, no? Why is what you said OK, and what I said not?
|
Alanovic, Bromp and I often clash with some of our views but I'd like to think we both have a lot of mutual respect for each other, and we never fall out.
I don't think he has taken offence at my comment so why should you feel you have to do so on his behalf?
>>They are of the same nature, no? <<
No Alanovic, they are not.
You have a bee in your bonnet about drink driving and I gather you have good reason although I'm actually not aware of what it is and I'm not asking.
Because of this I have laid of the Wetherspoons thread and haven't posted my views on it at all, understanding partly your reasons for getting wound up.
On the other hand I have laid a lorry down on it's side, it has been related on here.
I know exactly how it feels wherever the blame lies.
I had admitted quite happily for the second time in two days that a lorry driver has been totally at fault.
Am I wrong to expect the consideration I give to others to be appreciated and given back?
I don't think so.
At times it would be very helpful if the board would allow me to have views on things without trying to attribute and compare them to a lorry driver.
In case it has escaped your notice I am a person as well.
Pat
|
Pat, you accuse me of picking fights on the lorry crash thread, and yet you're here making disparaging remarks about Brompton's work. Which could also be construed as picking fights, and has been construed as harsh by not just me, even if Bromps didn't get the gloves on.
I struggle to see the difference why I'm a fight picker and you're not. That's all. Seems like double standards and your post above doesn't clarify that.
I'm not taking offence on anyone's behalf, I'm just wondering why it's OK for you to make snide comments but not me.
>> At times it would be very helpful if the board would allow me to have views on things without trying to attribute and compare them to a lorry driver.
Sorry, I hadn't thought of that. One for me and others to consider. I had thought you were a keen defender of lorry drivers and enjoyed doing so. I'll take your comments on board.
|
>> You have a bee in your bonnet about drink driving and I gather you have
>> good reason although I'm actually not aware of what it is and I'm not asking.
If he has good reason, and I do remember why, then I'm not sure 'bee in his bonnet' is quite the right description.
He has a rational objection to booze on MSA's. You can agree or disagree and debate why but reducing it to bees in bonnet or some of the terminology used by AC in the Wetherspoon's thread is not debate.
|
>> I gather you have
>> good reason although I'm actually not aware of what it is and I'm not asking<<
This really is too much like hard work and all the pleasure in posting here as gone.
I made it clear I'm not aware of what it is and I apologise to Alanavic if my description was innapropriate.
Here's was me trying to be sensitive and perceptive....
Waste of time.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 17:15
|
Dutchie seems to have disappeared from here and HJ. Are we sure he's not ill or in Dutchland?
GB flounced after an argument with Zeddo over Kipper politics but he's still active on HJ.
L'es was in just before Xmas I think. Got impression he'd just found other interests.
Nothing to do with Alanovich, Mapmaker or Me.
|
>> Dutchie seems to have disappeared from here and HJ. Are we sure he's not ill
>> or in Dutchland?
>>
>> GB flounced after an argument with Zeddo over Kipper politics but he's still active on
>> HJ.
>>
>> L'es was in just before Xmas I think. Got impression he'd just found other interests.
>>
>>
>> Nothing to do with Alanovich, Mapmaker or Me.
Thats it blame me.
|
>> It's really vey easy to see why we don't see L'es, Dutchie, GB and many,
>> many more here anymore....
Do tell.
|
>> I make sensible and justified points.
No, your point is sarcastic.
>> You're sarcastic.
Yep, if you can't take it don't dish it out.
>> He's picking fights.
No, that's you.
>>
>> Tut.
Isn't that short for Tutankhamen?
Pat
|
I don't think you quite understood the nature of my contribution there. Never mind. Perhaps I should have put the vital bit in quotations.
It was a reference to a scene in "Yes, (Prime) Minister" where Bernard says to Humphrey:
"It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it: I have an independent mind; you are an eccentric; he is round the twist."
Maybe not everyone's seen the programme but it's a favourite of mine.
Last edited by: Alanović on Thu 23 Jan 14 at 16:50
|
I've never watched it.
Pat
|
>> I've never watched it.
>> Pat
You should give it a try Pat. It's often very funny. I bet you'd like it.
|
I should think most of us got it, Alanović.
I have a horrid feeling that poor Bromp will say he cannot watch it as it is too close to the bone... (Though a friend of mine who works in the House loves it.)
|
>> I have a horrid feeling that poor Bromp will say he cannot watch it as
>> it is too close to the bone... (Though a friend of mine who works in
>> the House loves it.)
I loved it too. Like Porridge although supposedly comedy it actually got closer to the reality than many so called serious dramas.
Particularly identified with Bernard whose role (albeit at a considerably senior level) was not unlike my own c. 79/80 as a clerk to a tribunal member.
|
Its tasteless, but I don't see it as racist.
And being tasteless is not against the law.
|
Are you colour blind? - Roger.
