Non-motoring > I apologise for murdering my sister	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Mapmaker	Replies: 44

New Mon 20 Jan 14 16:04   I apologise for murdering my sister - Mapmaker

I've never had a sister, but I've been asked to apologise for murdering her, so here it is. I don't quite get this story. Rennard says he didn't harass women. A LibDem inquiry has said he didn't (beyond reasonable doubt). So of course he's not going to apologise... news.sky.com/story/1198000/liberal-democrats-suspend-lord-rennard Last edited by: Mapmaker on Mon 20 Jan 14 at 16:04 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 16:21   I apologise for murdering my sister - Armel Coussine

>> I don't quite get this story. It is distinctly odd. An apology would constitute a de facto admission of an offence he denies committing. My impression is that the Lib Dems are going along with public opinion which wants to see Lord Rennard suffer for being fat, rich and smug-looking. Public opinion has also been told by the press that it is very angry with Nick Clegg for breaking election promises and so on. So no doubt 'poor old Cleggers' as the London Mayor affectionately calls him is relieved to see the glare of hostile publicity focused elsewhere for a while. Who'd be a politician? It's permanent Calvary, a masochist's métier. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 16:23   I apologise for murdering my sister - Bromptonaut

>> I've never had a sister, but I've been asked to apologise for murdering her, so >> here it is. If you murder your sister there's the evident fact that she's never seen again and unless you're very skilled at this stuff the inconvenient presence of a corpse and forensic evidence. OTOH, if you hypothetically feel the backside of your sister's best mate while you're alone together in the kitchen even if she screams immediately it's your word/her word. You say you inadvertently brushed your hand against her as she moved backwards she says she was groped. >> >> I don't quite get this story. Rennard says he didn't harass women. A LibDem inquiry >> has said he didn't (beyond reasonable doubt). So of course he's not going to apologise... >> >> news.sky.com/story/1198000/liberal-democrats-suspend-lord-rennard I don't think that's quite what the inquiry said. The complaints process in the LDs appears to be somewhat arcane and require allegations to be proved to the criminal standard. AIUI the conclusion was that the claims were NOT proved beyond reasonable doubt - thus no disciplinary action. Doesn't mean there's nothing to worry about or that he didn't act in a way that made them feel uncomfortable. The inquiry found that he should apologise. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 20 Jan 14 at 16:24 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 16:32   I apologise for murdering my sister - Mapmaker

>>If you murder your sister there's the evident fact that she's never seen again and unless... The point is that I haven't *got* a sister (and never have had just lest you accuse me of murdering her). But I apologise for murdering her anyway. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 16:39   I apologise for murdering my sister - henry k

He has chucked it in so move along now! Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 16:46   I apologise for murdering my sister - Bromptonaut

>> >>If you murder your sister there's the evident fact that she's never seen again and >> unless... >> >> The point is that I haven't *got* a sister (and never have had just lest >> you accuse me of murdering her). But I apologise for murdering her anyway. > I understood that and were you accused there's no disappearance never mind a body or forensics. Your family and friends will aver you never had a sister. OTOH Lord Rennard certainly worked with these women and while no offence can be proven to criminal standard the panel thinks he should apologise for any offence his actions proved. Reading between the lines there's a suggestion that if the standard was 'balance of probabilities' as it would be if you or I faced a groping charge at work, the panel might have found differently. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 16:56   I apologise for murdering my sister - madf

Some of the incidents date back a decade. Women complained to teh LD management: nothing was done. And so it went on over the years.. More complaints: nothing done. After a decade, evidence is going to be non existent - as above your word against someone else. It could all have been solved by a few quiet words and a warning - make sure it does not happen again. But LDs talk the talk but don't walk at all so nothing was done.. and now we the LDs have a shambles.. As for an apology = admitting guilt, it's BS. You can apologise for hurting feelings inadvertently... not intended to give offence etc. Bunch of yellowbellies. Last edited by: madf on Mon 20 Jan 14 at 16:56 Reply to this message | Report message       3

New Mon 20 Jan 14 17:00   I apologise for murdering my sister - Armel Coussine

I think in his place I would have made a carefully-worded apology, if only to reduce the clamour. But it's possible he is angered by what he sees as a mean-spirited retrospective stitch-up by these women whose objections at the time he may not really have noticed... thought of himself as being friendly and touchy-feely, naughty but nice sort of thing. But these are uninformed guesses. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 17:00   I apologise for murdering my sister - Mapmaker

>>Reading between the lines there's a suggestion that if the standard was 'balance of >>probabilities' as it would be if you or I faced a groping charge at work, the panel might >>have found differently. But that's irrelevant. The LibDems have their procedures. They have found him 'not guilty'. But Cleggover (remember him?) has not followed their procedures. Bless them all. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 17:23   I apologise for murdering my sister - Bromptonaut

>> But that's irrelevant. The LibDems have their procedures. They have found him 'not guilty'. But >> Cleggover (remember him?) has not followed their procedures. >> >> Bless them all. The original request for Rennard to apologise came from the lawyer chairing the inquiry. Clegg has simply followed that through. I'm not impressed by Rennard's legal adviser Lord Carlile of Berriew who's blustered his way through media interviews as though asserting himself as lead counsel before the court. More nuanced advice would involve taking his client on one side and offering advice along lines of look matey...... Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 17:42   I apologise for murdering my sister - Manatee

>> The original request for Rennard to apologise came from the lawyer chairing the inquiry. Clegg >> has simply followed that through. True, but he should have been sent away until he came back with a self-consistent answer. You can't say Rennard may not have done anything untoward but he should apologise. There's also the legal nuance that Alistair Webster concludes he should apologise, and another lawyer, Carlile, is strongly advising Rennard not to. Presumably Webster as a lawyer could have foreseen that. >> >> I'm not impressed by Rennard's legal adviser Lord Carlile of Berriew who's blustered his way >> through media interviews as though asserting himself as lead counsel before the court. >> >> More nuanced advice would involve taking his client on one side and offering advice along >> lines of look matey...... Sorry. You can't apologise without apologising. Rennard has more or less said if he caused offence, he regrets it. I don't see how he can go much further unless he apologises for something specific that cannot be construed as an offence. The Libs brought this on themselves, they don't look as if they could run a jumble sale. He has made a statement. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25814565 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 17:54   I apologise for murdering my sister - R.P.

They have a long inglorious history for a small party.. we were talking about Jeremy Thorpe in work and Simon Hughes..... Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 18:22   I apologise for murdering my sister - No FM2R

>> You can't say Rennard may not have done anything untoward but he should apologise. I've only read this stuff casually, but didn't they say something like "it seems like its reasonable to say that this is his standard of behaviour, but we can't prove it beyond all reasonable doubt". Or something like that. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 17:55   I apologise for murdering my sister - Westpig

>> But that's irrelevant. The LibDems have their procedures. They have found him 'not guilty'. It is not irrelevant if their procedures are flawed....and they are flawed.....because they are using the criminal standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' rather than the civil court standard of 'balance of probabilities' as everyone else would. So a very tough standard to prove misconduct has allowed someone to walk away and say it was not proven. Doesn't mean he hasn't done it. ....and you have to take into account the fact that there aren't a shed loads of allegations against anyone else, are there? Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 17:11   I apologise for murdering my sister - Manatee

The longer this goes on, the more of a shower they look, and the less of a leader Clegg looks. Clegg has been foolish. You should never demand anything you really need, and certainly not publicly, unless you are pretty certain you are going to get it. Clegg has painted himself into a corner that only Rennard can get him out of. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 19:37   I apologise for murdering my sister - Robin O'Reliant

If he is adamant he didn't do anything why should he apologise? I wouldn't if that were the case. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 19:51   I apologise for murdering my sister - Manatee

The complainants are sticking to their guns apparently, and I doubt if ambitious women, or men for that matter, would make this kind of complaint entirely mischievously. He probably should try to beef up his apology 'regret' a bit and that might be where the fudge is to get them out of this. I still think Clegg is hopeless. Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 20 Jan 14 at 19:53 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 20 Jan 14 20:20   I apologise for murdering my sister - Zero

>> I've never had a sister, but I've been asked to apologise for murdering her, so >> here it is. Did your sister deserve it? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 09:00   I apologise for murdering my sister - Cliff Pope

If someone is offended by an incident that they believe happened, but according to an enquiry didn't, then is it possible to express regret that the person was offended, but without assuming any responsibility for that offence? I regret that the British participated in slavery. But I can't apologise for it, because it wasn't me. I am very sorry indeed that Mapmaker's sister has allegedly been murdered. Reply to this message | Report message       2

New Tue 21 Jan 14 09:19   I apologise for murdering my sister - madf

I have reported Mapmaker to the thought police. If he had a sister, he has admitted he would have killed her. So he's a murderer - of wimmin. Simple logic...Clegg IS hopeless. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 21 Jan 14 11:14   I apologise for murdering my sister - Bromptonaut

>> Simple logic...Clegg IS hopeless. Clegg is between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand his party's antiquated and unfit discipline system has come to a verdict of 'not proven'. On the other the reports of behaviour that at its most moderate interpretation makes several professional women deeply uncomfortable to be with him. The party activists, and not just the female ones, are up in arms over being part of a party percieved by the public to tolerate the sort of behaviour alledged. Mass resignations are threatened and those who go will be the volunteers essential to the LibDem method of campaigning. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 12:29   I apologise for murdering my sister - Robin O'Reliant

Anyone who worked in a factory as a young man, particularly on an apprenticeship where most of one's colleagues were adults will have suffered the same sort of sexual assault that these women were complaining about. It was done in a different way - in front of a load of grinning workmates rather than clandestinely - but being felt to "See what you've got" or having someone dry humping you from behind was something virtually every fresh faced school leaver had to go through till they learned to stand up for themselves. It was all taken as horseplay, getting a cheap laugh out of making someone young and vulnerable feel extremely embarrassed and uncomfortable, but I now wonder how many of the older men doing it were getting far more than just a laugh out of it, particularly as it was always the same few who were at the fore whenever a new youngster joined the floor. I can understand how women who are the victims of gropers must feel, and well remember how the younger girls who worked in the office would flatly refuse to venture onto the shop floor. Anyone behaving like some of the otherwise "Respectable" family men of those days would now be facing serious time. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 21 Jan 14 12:51   I apologise for murdering my sister - Westpig

The old perve's have traditionally relied on mob culture to get away with it..only nowadays things have changed. It is/was only the few that indulged, but the rest of us didn't step in to stop it, because 'that's the way it was'. I'm glad the culture has changed. There is a difference though between being a bit of a leer and being noticeably 'hands on' or worse. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 21 Jan 14 16:52   I apologise for murdering my sister - Runfer D'Hills

>> but being felt to "See what you've got" or having someone dry humping you from behind was something virtually every fresh faced school leaver had to go through till they learned to stand up for themselves......It was all taken as horseplay, getting a cheap laugh out of making someone young and vulnerable feel extremely embarrassed and uncomfortable.... Good Lord really? Seriously, I must perhaps have led a very sheltered life but even at a tender age I can't imagine reacting at all well to that sort of thing. Easy to say now I know, but I strongly suspect I'd have responded swiftly and violently to anyone behaving like that, crowd or not and hang the consequences. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 16:58   I apologise for murdering my sister - No FM2R

>>Good Lord really? Oh yes. Really. >> I strongly suspect I'd have responded swiftly and violently As did I, but many do not. I've rescued a few. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 17:01   I apologise for murdering my sister - Runfer D'Hills

I am perhaps naively, but nonetheless genuinely, astonished. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 17:14   I apologise for murdering my sister - No FM2R

Dunno Run, did you work in these environments? I worked in many a factory, assembly line or heavy engineering work place. I was a welder and fabricator, as well as performing many more menial factory, stock room, picking or other assembly line jobs. Pretty monstrous places for the faint of heart. I don't know if its still like that, its been 25ish years since I was on a shopfloor full time. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 17:50   I apologise for murdering my sister - Armel Coussine

>> Pretty monstrous places for the faint of heart. Real workplaces all are when you aren't used to them. I did quite a few labouring jobs when young - didn't have FMR's skills so just labouring - but can't remember ever being sexually molested by a woman let alone a man. Perhaps I wasn't young enough, or they feared I would say something disapproving, I dunno... I do remember when hitchhiking once a lorry driver putting his hand in my lap. I moved it away (feeling as many girls must have felt over the years) and explained that I wasn't homosexual (bisexuality hadn't been invented yet, and no, I'm not that either). He wasn't really offended and muttered something about 'just a bit of fun', perfectly nice bloke. I was very surprised because although I knew that there were homosexuals, it had never occurred to me that some of them would be working class. How about that for naivety? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 20:57   I apologise for murdering my sister - Armel Coussine

>> although I knew that there were homosexuals, it had never occurred to me that some of them would be working class. How about that for naivety? A year or so later I worked as a labourer - washer-up in this case - in a Central London coffee bar staffed entirely by screaming West End drag queens, not the Soho aristocracy but run-of-the-mill. That was an eye-opener in many ways, and revealed that sexual deviance isn't especially influenced by social class. No one molested me as usual although conversation was extremely free. I guess I'm just unattractive. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 17:16   I apologise for murdering my sister - Manatee

I've certainly seen it. At 15 I did some summer work at an engineering works. It goes with the milder teasing of being sent to the stores for a long stand, or some sparks for the grinder, and like other forms of bullying is practised most on those judged the most likely to put up with it. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 17:44   I apologise for murdering my sister - Bromptonaut

>> It goes with the milder teasing of being sent to the stores for a long >> stand, or some sparks for the grinder, and like other forms of bullying is practised >> most on those judged the most likely to put up with it. That and the stuff RoR describes upthread are rather different to what's alleged in LD land. Shop floor joshing, for the most part, takes place between people who are broadly equals. If you don't go along with with stuff from the women on the shop floor you're probably thought standoffish but I doubt it'll affect your career. Lord Whassisname was the Chief Executive of the party. The women making the allegations were relatively junior researchers etc. Probably hoping to make their way up the greasy pole to Special Adviser or elective office. They were effectively dependent on keeping in his Lordship's good books, a few words from him and their career hopes are dashed. With a 'power gradient' like that it's very difficult for them to challenge inappropriate behaviour and very easy for the perp to carry on. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 17:49   I apologise for murdering my sister - No FM2R

Whilst I agree with your comments about the different situation/circumstances, I'm guessing you've never actually worked on a shopfloor? "joshing" just doesn't cover it. Neither does the idea of "who are broadly equals". Its anything but. Or at least, it was. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 18:52   I apologise for murdering my sister - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> That and the stuff RoR describes upthread are rather different to what's alleged in LD >> land. Shop floor joshing, for the most part, takes place between people who are broadly >> equals. If you don't go along with with stuff from the women on the shop >> floor you're probably thought standoffish but I doubt it'll affect your career. >> >> It certainly wasn't taking place among people who are broadly equal or anything like it. When you're 15 years old and the only adults you've previously had any real contact with are parents and teachers such behaviour comes as a real shock to the system. Like most, I learned to handle it just as most girls learned to handle having their b um felt and the occasional hand up the skirt but not everyone did and I can think of at least one young apprentice who was destroyed when he couldn't, and like most people who are seen as easy targets he became a magnet for the bullies and had to leave as his life became so miserable. The more time passes and allegations against the likes of Savile come out the more I can recognise a much more sinister side to the actions of certain individuals that would certainly not be tolerated today. It would have been no use complaining back then either, it was accepted by workers and management alike as being par for the course. Factory floors were way different places to offices, you had to become fairly tough to survive and be accepted as one of the lads. Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Tue 21 Jan 14 at 18:53 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 22 Jan 14 09:55   I apologise for murdering my sister - Bromptonaut

>>It would have been no use complaining back then >> either, it was accepted by workers and management alike as being par for the course. >> When I used the term equals I meant in eyes of management. I note what you say about complaining but had an incident blown up you'd both be treated equally and with no or equal detriment to your career. Not the case when you're a researcher and the bad stuff is alleged against the Chief Exec. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 22 Jan 14 12:20   I apologise for murdering my sister - No FM2R

>>but had an incident blown up you'd both be treated equally and with no or equal detriment to your career. Absolute stuff and nonsense. The one who reported it would have been classed as someone who didn't play well with others, couldn't work on the shop floor, couldn't grow to be a team leader etc. etc. The bully/ringleader would have been believed and it would have been regarded as horseplay, and only if it got physically very serious or if there were so many complaints it became impossible to ignore would anything have been done. I do not disagree with anything you say about the current case, but you have no idea what factory floors and the like were (perhaps are) like. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 22 Jan 14 12:42   I apologise for murdering my sister - Mapmaker

I've known girls who've slept their way up. I've known boys who've slept their way up. I've known married men who've slept with trainees (who discovered the married bit afterwards). And I've known female bosses behave inappropriately towards their male junior staff. And of course male bosses who've left their wives for their younger secretaries. And I've known female bosses who are just nasty bullies. Likewise male bosses, but I've never seen a man wage a nasty war against a junior the way I've seen women do it. And all this has happened in a modern professional services environment which is a mostly benign environment because everybody is over-sensitive: I once had an absolute ear bashing for having been at a graduate recruitment event (on the recruiting side) and having been talking to two pretty girls. "You were clearly trying to chat them up; you gave them your business card." Wow! I'm sure I'd have been doing better at chatting them up if I'd got their phone number, yes they were pretty and yes of course it was nice talking to them, but the corollary is that one isn't allowed to talk to pretty girls; they banned me from doing any more as well. (And then I got another earbashing some time later for not volunteering to help with recruitment.) Pah. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 22 Jan 14 16:02   I apologise for murdering my sister - Manatee

>> but the >> corollary is that one isn't allowed to talk to pretty girls; they banned me from >> doing any more as well. (And then I got another earbashing some time later for >> not volunteering to help with recruitment.) Pah. The other corollary being that pretty girls will get nowhere, because nobody will talk to them... Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 22 Jan 14 16:30   I apologise for murdering my sister - Mapmaker

Quite. You're too pretty to recruit because you'll cause problems in the office. Which is probably true. "He only has pretty girls working for him." "He never gets the pretty girls to work for him." (I've heard both of those, too.) Just imagine if the boys in the office were categorised in such terms. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 22 Jan 14 08:27   I apologise for murdering my sister - Cliff Pope

>> >> Anyone behaving like some of the otherwise "Respectable" family men of those days would now >> be facing serious time. >> Some of the masters at my school would be in prison if today's standards were applied, and a good many boys up before juvenile courts, detention centre, sex-offenders' register, etc. But times change, and no one can complain that the rules have suddenly changed - it's been a slow (un)steady progress, with a lot of warnings about what is now acceptable. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 17:40   I apologise for murdering my sister - Mapmaker

Well, this story gets more exciting. Lord Rennard is to take the Lib Dems to court. No doubt the simple sword of truth and trusty shield of British fair play will be employed by both sides. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 21 Jan 14 17:44   I apologise for murdering my sister - neiltoo

If you think men in engineering shops were bad, you should have tried the women in cotton spinning and weaving sheds with new boys..... Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 22 Jan 14 09:40   I apologise for murdering my sister - Manatee

I wouldn't mention the sword of truth if I were him. It didn't go well for the last bloke. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Jan 14 09:05   I apologise for murdering my sister - Duncan

>> I wouldn't mention the sword of truth if I were him. It didn't go well >> for the last bloke. >> Ah! Yes, "the simple sword of truth". He got skewered by the Dagger of Deceit, I believe. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Jan 14 08:58   More Trouble for LibDems - Bromptonaut

It's reported this morning that Mike Hancock, the LD MP for Portsmouth South, has been suspended following a report into allegations of inappropriate behaviour of a sexual nature with a 'vulnerable' constituent. www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/22/lib-dems-suspend-mp-accused-assaulting-constituent Hancock of course has lengthy form for priapic activity including with Russian former Parliamentary researcher. That case went to the Special Immigration Appeal Tribunal when the Home Office tried to deport the woman. She won and the Tribunal noted in its decision that they were less than satisfied with HAncock's credibility as a witness. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 23 Jan 14 09:13   More Trouble for LibDems - Roger.

"Handycock" as he is known in some circles, has not only a long history of young lady interactions, but is a member of Portsmouth Council and reputedly nothing happens in Portsmouth (politically) without his agreement. There are rumours of other, non-sexual, scandals in that area, if internet insinuations are correct. In any event, he is an embarrassment to the LibDems, for which some of us are grateful! Reply to this message | Report message       1