| Non-motoring > Employment question | Legal Questions |
| Thread Author: Badwolf | Replies: 27 |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 10:04
Employment question - Badwolf
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Hello all, Sorry for the vague title, but I really couldn't think how to put it better! Anyway, I'm having an issue at work. I started my current job last March. It is my second time there. The last time I was there I had, by my own admission, a woeful attendance record. This time round, however, I was (and am) determined to do better and have worked long and hard to get back here. Unfortunately, I have been the victim of some very bad luck since rejoining. In September, my dad died. I had quite a bit of time off, using annual leave and sick leave. I went back to work at the end of October, then had to have half a day off with a dodgy stomach. A couple of weeks later I wasn't coping at all well so I went off sick again, returning in late November. Then, in mid-December I trapped my hand in the depot minibus door whilst being given a lift home. I had to have ten days off work. The upshot of all this is last week I was summoned to an informal disciplinary meeting to discuss my attendance. My boss kept referring back to my previous spell of employment with them, using this as a reason to progress the meeting to a formal disciplinary hearing to be held sometime this week. So, after all that waffle, the question is can an employer refer back to your record from a previous spell of employment and then use that information to influence decisions made during disciplinary hearings during your current employment? I've had a search around on the web but can't find the specific Codes of Practice/Legislation that may cover this. As always, any help will be gratefully received. Many thanks is advance. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 12:52
Employment question - movilogo
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I have no expertise in this field so please don't accept this as gospel. AFAIK, if someone quits and then rejoins in an organization, then a new record for that person is created. Officially, most companies will only disclose dates you have worked there and position held (if any reference check is asked by 3rd party). Because you joined there 2nd time, you may argue that because you worked so well in your 1st spell that they hired you again. For all your benefits calculation, it will begin from your start of employment from current reincarnation (and not previous one) so I don't think it is right to bring your past record in this dispute. Good luck. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 13:17
Employment question - Cliff Pope
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If they took you on again despite your woeful past record, then either; a) they were inefficient and had lost their records b) they didn't care, regular attendance is not relevant to your job c) they hoped you had turned over a new leaf. Assuming it's (c), they ought to have monitored your attendance more actively second time around. I don't think they can go straight to a full disciplinary procedure without going through a due process of informal warning, meeting, agreed performance criteria, monitoring, etc. But it will depend on the staff code. It should all be set out there. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 13:26
Employment question - ChrisM
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I'll stick my union hat on. Your employer employs you to do a job and if you are not there to do the job, it is within its' right to do something about it. Your attendance record since last March has been poor, albeit the reasons were out of your control and the death of your father deserves sympathetic treatment. As you are probably aware, there is no statutory time off for bereavement and it is down to the generosity of your employer. Was 10 days off for the hand injury reasonable or do you still have issues with your father's death which extended the absence? Your current employment is a new contract and previous service shouldn't count however, the fact that your manager is taking it into account would indicate he/she believes it strengthens their case. You don't have control over their private thoughts, but you can argue that it shouldn't be taken into account. If it were me I'd accept that my attendance has been poor and that I am taking steps to put it right. Reading between the lines it appears your father's death may have hit you hard. Are you seeking help with your bereavement? You need to show that you are trying to improve matters. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 14:16
Employment question - No FM2R
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Good answer from ChrisM, I'd say. They cannot take account of behavior in a previous employment. Any action they take now must be justifiable based on this employment. However, as Chris says, it may well colour their thinking. It is simply that any action taken MUST be as a result of a current situation. To a large extent one can only penalise an employee for something that one has already told them is a problem and given them a reasonable opportunity to improve. Normally one would informally caution someone of the failing and give them the opportunity to improve. Going straight to formal hearing is unusual, although not unheard of. If it is going straight to formal, then I wonder about the purpose of the meeting you've just had. As a general point, when invited to such a meeting ALWAYS start by asking the driver, agenda, purpose and potential outcomes of that meeting. ALWAYS. ALWAYS. ALWAYS. My first wondering is whether or not you have already been informed of this perceived failing, in THIS employment. Nonetheless, assuming that you have had no previous meetings on this matter, they cannot reasonably take action against you for something if they haven't given you the opportunity to improve so there is a limit as to how far these meetings can go anyway. (Gross misconduct to one side). I would expect a setting out of the specifics of the failing, a defined time period within which it must improve, and details of the action that will be considered if it is not improved. Equally, whilst it may be harsh, the reasons for the absence are secondary. One can sever an employee on justified sick leave under the right circumstances. One must show business drivers and reasonable behaviour. I mean no offence, since I do not know you, but your attendance record is firstly unacceptable, and secondly suggests a lack of commitment or unresolved issues. You should probably address that, at least to yourself. Finally though, whilst you can probably stop this going any further, I advise you to seek a new job. I doubt your career can be resurrected where you are. And DO NOT offend further until you have resolved this, even if you have to drag your bleeding carcass across the threshold. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 14:40
Employment question - Cliff Pope
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>> >> suggests a lack of commitment or unresolved issues. >> >> Yes, it does, and the employer ought to have picked that up and discussed it with you. "I had quite a bit of time off, using annual leave and sick leave." is suggestive of your attitude, perhaps? We are very generous and sympathetic regarding staff problems, bereavement, etc. But we do so by awarding specific discretionary bereavement leave. Sick leave is for if you are sick, not something to "use" to make up annual leave. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 21:02
Employment question - Badwolf
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>> "I had quite a bit of time off, using annual leave and sick leave." is >> suggestive of your attitude, perhaps? Not at all, no. I am committed to this job and to this company as it has taken me quite a lot of effort to get taken back on. My intention was to have a faultless attendance record, however circumstances have conspired against me. Is grieving for my father and recovering from a hand injury showing a lack of commitment? The time off I had around my dad's death was to be with him in the hospice (my brother and I did 'shifts' so that one or both of us was always with him) and then to grieve (or at least start to). It was my employers who suggested that I use my annual leave and my sick leave entitlement to ensure that I wouldn't lose out on pay. The bereavement leave that my company offers extends to three days. As another poster rightly surmises I work as a bus driver. The injury to my hand meant that I could not safely control a bus, therefore I had no option but to be off work. Yes, I know that my record this time round is not good. However, I feel that to be given a verbal warning (at best) at a formal disciplinary hearing is harsh in the extreme. At the end of the day, if my dad had not died then I would not be in this situation and it is very hard to accept that my wanting to be there for him during his last days and grieve for him immediately after his death has led to disciplinary action. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 23:39
Employment question - No FM2R
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Badwolf, Do not take offence, I am trying to help. Whether or not they consider a previous employment cycle is a red herring. They have all the grounds they need without referring to that, it is simply a matter which has further detracted from your credibility. A credibility which I imagine is not standing too high right now. On the face of it it feels as if you have taken time off where you could have soldiered on, although I have no idea how the loss of your Father has affected you. You seem to have had most of the last 3 or 4 months off for a varying amount of reasons, much of it unplanned. This has seemingly resulted in you under-performing at your job and this is in addition to having previously failed in a similar way in a previous employment cycle. If I was your boss then I hope I would have done a better job of understanding what was going on. What I feel is going on is that you have lost your way and have reverted to previous behaviour - essentially going over the top with time off. I am unconvinced about your commitment to the role in real terms or your acceptance of responsibility for that under performance. The tone of what you write seems to contain aggrievance that the world has unfairly done this to you. Whilst the reasons may be valid, although I am not sure that is so, it is still an under performance. If you feel that you have the credibility with your boss and within the company to restore the situation, then you need to approach your boss, be full and frank and accept responsibility openly for both what has happened and for putting it right. You should NOT do this unless you buy into and commit to what you are saying. Think about this approach *very* carefully. I advise you to consider this may just be an unhappy episode which you need to bring to a close. To that end, assuming it is practicable, perhaps look for a job elsewhere and hint to the boss or HR that the only thing that will make this remain a thorn in their side would be official action which you would have to declare to potential future employers. I would assume that it is in both of your interests to draw this to a close and to ensure no further conflict until that conclusion and were I him I would deal with a very light hand if I believed it was likely to resolve itself. Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 13 Jan 14 at 23:42
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 14:41
Employment question - madf
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I have always found when unwell - and worried about appearing at work - it is far better to appear at work -(assuming you can safely travel) looking like death warmed up and go through the motions of trying to work. This has two main advantages: 1. it shows you are willing to work 2. usually your incapacity is obvious and you are sent home as unfit to work - if the management are any good. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 14:51
Employment question - Alanovich
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| 3. Everyone else gets it. No use to anyone. Stay home. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 15:24
Employment question - madf
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>> 3. Everyone else gets it. No use to anyone. Stay home. >> Not in the examples given by OP- hand injury. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 15:33
Employment question - Alanovich
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?? I was replying to your assertion about appearing at work looking like death warmed up and going through the motions - clearly a reference to attending work with some kind of illness rather than a physical injury. The OP's a bus driver (I think) - if he appeared at work with a mashed up hand, well, erm.......................... |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 16:58
Employment question - Fursty Ferret
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| But the best thing about having a cold is knowing that everyone you come near will also be enjoying it in 10 days time. If you stay at home the fun is ruined. RUINED, I tell you. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 17:04
Employment question - Westpig
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>> But the best thing about having a cold is knowing that everyone you come near >> will also be enjoying it in 10 days time. If you stay at home the >> fun is ruined. RUINED, I tell you. >> Yeah..but you lot cheat...you have your germs piped through into the other room...;-) Last edited by: Westpig on Mon 13 Jan 14 at 17:04
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 20:32
Employment question - Zero
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>> The OP's a bus driver (I think) - if he appeared at work with a >> mashed up hand, well, erm.......................... Most of the bus drivers round here drive like Long John Silver, - one leg and a hook |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 20:17
Employment question - zippy
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>> I have always found when unwell - and worried about appearing at work - it >> is far better to appear at work -(assuming you can safely travel) looking like death >> warmed up and go through the motions of trying to work. >> This has two main advantages: >> 1. it shows you are willing to work >> 2. usually your incapacity is obvious and you are sent home as unfit to work >> - if the management are any good. Did that once. Felt rough in the morning, bit of a stiff back, ached but had an important meeting at a customer. When in the meeting, I was getting more uncomfortable then the pain made me pass in and out of consciousness. Ended up with the emergency doctors arriving at the customer's offices in a Landrover Defender, dosing me up with morphine and carting me off to the local A&E about 100 miles from home. She that was SWMBO at the time was most unhappy about having to pick me up when at last fit to travel, still high on morphine, the hospital staff bundled me in to her car and told her to take me to my local A&E if I deteriorated on route. Last edited by: zippy on Mon 13 Jan 14 at 20:19
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 20:04
Employment question - Dog
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| Phone ACAS and they will help you. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 20:37
Employment question - Bromptonaut
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>> Phone ACAS and they will help you. That and/or Citizen's Advice. Also, an illustration of where being in the Union can help. From a detached pov your record doesn't look that good. If your service since rejoining is separated from your first stint then there's a double edged sword; you're new and on probation rather than being a long termer having a wobble. Speaking from a personal perspective my former employer, the Civil Service, has a reputation for being free and easy on sickness. And yet: My immediate junior and I both had 30+ plus years unblotted service in 2012/13. I had a bike accident resulting in 6 weeks off from 4 July 2012. She had a bout of flu in winter 11/12 then sporadic days followed by a fortnight off for treatment of menopausal lady's issues - a fibroid?. In both cases HR was pushing for warnings about unacceptable sick absence. In both cases managers were old enough and bold enough to blow HR a raspberry. OTOH both managers could have been 'young turks' looking to cut themselves a reputation. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 20:38
Employment question - MD
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| Get a grip. |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 21:25
Employment question - mikeyb
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3 Instances of sick in a rolling 12 month period and you enter the sickness process. Its not a disciplinary, but opens up a "discussion" as to why you have been off. Some see it as trying to get at you, but in reality its there to spot patterns - i.e. bob is always off on the first monday after payday cos he has a massive hangover, and to see if there is other causes such as stress related issues. Every instance of sickness is followed up with a return to work interview - a brief chat with your boss to find why you were out, ensure you are fit to return, and do the occupational health team need to support you |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 23:53
Employment question - legacylad
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| Is it correct that if you have worked for any business for less than 12 months they can terminate your employment at a moments notice and without any reason? |
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New Mon 13 Jan 14 23:56
Employment question - No FM2R
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>>Is it correct that if you have worked for any business for less than 12 months they can terminate your employment at a moments notice and without any reason? Mostly. They may have to show it was not for any "untoward" reason, they must behave reasonably and within the terms of your contract; which will almost certainly include a period of notice. |
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New Tue 14 Jan 14 00:06
Employment question - Lygonos
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| Pretty much - no reason needs to be given, but it must not be due to one of the 'discriminations' or it can be deemed unfair. |
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New Tue 14 Jan 14 10:15
Employment question - Mapmaker
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>> Is it correct that if you have worked for any business for less than 12 >> months they can terminate your employment at a moments notice and without any reason? Pretty much, though they'd have to pay you your month's (presumably?) notice. Given that they've spent most of the last four months paying you for you not to be there anyway, if they wanted shot of you then it would make sense to give you the month's pay and wave goodbye. It would be pretty difficult for them to sack you - i.e. terminate your employment without paying your notice - without going through the proper process of warnings etc. If I were your employer based on the evidence you provide here (rather than any evidence of how good you are at your job and what an all-round good egg you may be) I'd be inclined to cut my losses and pay you your month's notice, given your previous episode of poor attendance. It's just an indication that I was foolish to bring you back into employment, rather than something that I'm adding into the equation for the current disciplinary process. However, your employer wants to have a chat. Which seems to me that: (1) They're not going to give you your notice. (2) I doubt they think they have grounds to sack you without going through a formal process. (3) I suspect they may give you a formal written warning. Which, if you really have turned over a new leaf, won't be an issue to you as you're not going to be off sick again, are you? After six months or a year the warning will expire anyway. You might wish to offer to them that if you do have a nasty stomach or suchlike in the next six months that you'll take it as holiday. |
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New Tue 14 Jan 14 10:45
Employment question - Badwolf
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Thank you all for your honest advice. I think that it's clear that I should accept whatever sanction is handed to me with good grace and then work hard to show my employers that they were right to take me back on. |
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New Tue 14 Jan 14 11:30
Employment question - Manatee
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I've just read the entire thread and can't add much. Do you appreciate the inconvenience it must cause to your colleagues, and the disruption it causes to your employer and potentially customers when you have unplanned absences? If you do, it might help to say so - your manager is probably very familiar with employees they perceive are all take and no give, big on rights but not accepting responsibilities. (When I worked in a bank a long time ago, I asked one of the typists how much holiday she had left - "Well I've used all my holiday but I still have my ten sick days" came the answer"!) I'm not suggesting that you grovel. Just show you take it seriously, that you understand the reasons that unplanned absence is a problem. Were you "under the doctor" when you were off after your father died? Is it the case that your treatment is now over and you are considered fit and well? That might help draw a line under your recent record. Getting a good picture in your own mind of why the future will not be like the past will help you articulate it, beyond just saying "I'll try harder", though I'm sure you will. Good luck. |
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New Tue 14 Jan 14 13:18
Employment question - No FM2R
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>>I think that it's clear that I should accept whatever sanction is handed to me with good grace and then work hard to show my employers that they were right to take me back on. Within reason, that'd be good. Just try to have a private word, or otherwise understand, where your boss's head is. Right or wrong, his attitude will have a huge bearing on your chances of success. If he's had enough, it'll be a very uphill struggle and you may need to take that into account. If, however, he supports you then don't promise *anything* that you either won't or can't deliver. The very best of luck in what you decide to do. |
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New Tue 14 Jan 14 16:29
Employment question - Stuu
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>>Thank you all for your honest advice. I think that it's clear that I should accept whatever sanction is handed to me with good grace and then work hard to show my employers that they were right to take me back on. << I think that is very sensible. Keep your head down, attendance up and over time people will ease up. I would also say is consider it from their point of view, imagine you are your manager but without the benefit of knowing really what has been going on in your life, there could be pressure on them to justify why you are employed at all. Sick days especially are a funny thing because if you are self-employed you realise how few you are willing to take when you dont get paid - I worked right through a chest and ear infection this xmas, I knew I had a big heating bill coming and I didnt have the choice to stop my income, quite a motivator. Regarding the hand issue, did you offer to do something else for the company while you couldnt drive? |
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