www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25314176
Surely the obvious way to cure the problem is to ensure that it *is* corrupt and that everybody knows that it is corrupt.
Making it look honest would surely just encourage more people to bet, and thus enable more profits for the unscrupulous?
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You mean like boxing???
I think one of the issues here has been our typical British "that won't happen here" attitude as well as the fact that you can now bet on almost anything during a game -The number 9 will pick his nose between 15-20 mins, we will give you 9/1 on that happening.
I still think it is very difficult for one individual to fully control a match result, even a goalkeeper throwing the ball in the net will not control what his own strikers may do at the other end. But every other permutation is up there for being bet on.
Was there not an alleged coach in the Premiership who told his players to kick the ball out after taking centre?? Time of first throw in.......
Also one case from Scotland recently
www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-stand-ian-black-despite-2270453
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Not surprised,happened in snooker was swiped under the table.
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Is betting on boxing corrupt? Well, I guess from your comment it must be, but I didn't know it was.
Years ago my [then] girlfriend's dad was involved with Slough Dogs. I loved it and it was great fun, but that was the most outrageously "fixed" environment I have ever encountered.
Other than for a pint down the pub on England/Wales, Boat Race etc., or the occasional trip to the races, I don't really bet on sport; not that I have any moral objection to it I just don't know enough about any particular sport to do so.
I certainly do not get the fascination with betting to the point that someone will bet at what time the first throw in will be, for example.
Mind you, neither do I see why we should use the law to control those that do enjoy it.
I don't really think I'm bothered by a sportsman I don't know "fixing" all or part of the result for a team I don't own. I think it all comes out in the end and tends to rectify itself - usually because it becomes obvious and known.
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Yes, the dogs is fixed. Always has been, and I doubt it could be resolved, there are just too many ways to find your way round the system.
It is, however a very civilised night out.
Boxing has always been corrupt, I doubt there is no fighter who has thrown a match at some time or other in their career.
It is however, a good night out.
Football? Yes clearly someone is making money out of "arranging" certain aspects of events in the game, I doubt however that complete games are thrown or fixed.
It is however a great sporting spectacle to go and watch.
And that I think is the crux, its still damn fine entertainment.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 10 Dec 13 at 15:03
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>>I doubt there is no fighter who has thrown a match at some time or other in their career.
I think you got your negatives mixed.
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>> >>I doubt there is no fighter who has thrown a match at some time or
>> other in their career.
>>
>> I think you got your negatives mixed.
I didn't get them mixed, I just missed one out completely.
Lets rearrange the phrase. Every fighter has thrown a fight at some time in their career.
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You're welcome.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 10 Dec 13 at 15:57
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Er ……….. anyone here old enough to remember 'professional' wrestling on the telly???
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Saturday afternoons have never been the same since its demise...
World of Sport.
Giant Haystacks
Big Daddy
Kendo Nagasaki
Rollerball Rocco
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I'm not unduly squeamish. I don't think boxing should be banned. But I can't see the attraction in watching blokes bashing the living daylights out of each other, doing their best to hurt and humiliate the adversary. It isn't my idea of a good night out. Boring and depressing more like, when the excitement has died down.
Had a long-time friend who had been a professional boxer, a poor boy, almost illiterate, imported from Jamaica by a North of England promoter when quite young. He got an eye injury that ended his boxing career, but the aftermath included very severe tinnitus and paranoid delusions about the council and his neighbours in the council block he lived in. He couldn't be convinced that that was the case and became a bit shirty when one tried. I had to stop going to see him in the end because although older than me he could have mashed me up thoroughly if he lost his temper.
Herself's father was a talented amateur boxer, a champion in his country's army. He too had suffered brain damage which shortened his life and made its last couple of years difficult and distressing. A do-gooding friend and drinking companion of mine sometimes bungs a retired boxer in his neighbourhood. He says the tinnitus and paranoia about his flat and the neighbours - and potentially anyone else - are very apparent, as with my Jamaican friend. All three were welterweights.
Boxing is pretty horrible in fact. I don't think it should be banned. But I bet a lot of people do, and it would be hard to argue with them.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 10 Dec 13 at 16:58
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I think I genuinely believed it when I was a kid; discovering the truth hit me as hard as learning the truth about Santa Claus :-(
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I honestly did believe it. It entirely spoiled wrestling and Saturday afternoons when a well-meaning uncle enlightened me.
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All-in wrestling always looked like an elephantine sort of ballet to me. You could see they weren't really fighting and that they had practised those moves together. Except sometimes actually when you could tell it had got nasty, someone had got annoyed.
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>> truth hit me as hard as learning the truth about Santa Claus
What about him?
:-)
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Santa Claus is real but lives in Greenland as the North Pole ice is melting.
As for football match fixing, the FA lives up to their name by doing FA.. an organisation for which the description "not fit for purpose" was invented..
Football is like any other sport - designed to distract the unwashed from reality. And recently - to make footballers very rich - much richer than bankers but the unwashed only complain about bankers whilst directly paying for footballers' 5 cars and three mistresses. How dumb can supporters get?
But I suppose you need brains to be a successful banker..
Last edited by: madf on Tue 10 Dec 13 at 17:12
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>>
>> Football is like any other sport - designed to distract the unwashed from reality. And
>> recently - to make footballers very rich - much richer than bankers but the unwashed
>> only complain about bankers whilst directly paying for footballers' 5 cars and three mistresses. How dumb can supporters get?
>>
>>
>> But I suppose you need brains to be a successful banker..
>>
>>
Football wasn't "Designed" for anything other than the enjoyment of those who play it and it caught on to the extent that millions of people are prepared to pay to watch the best exponents play it - like any sport. And who would you rather as a role model for your kids, a fit young sports star who has dedicated his or her life to their profession or some drugged up alcoholic with dubious sexual history who can sing or play a guitar? They earn just as much or more than most footballers, yet they are exempt from criticism about spoilt, overpaid brats.
You get a handful of footballers who go over the top, but I suspect most of the resentment comes from seeing unqualified working class lads doing rather well and not knowing their place, ie down at the bottom where they can do menial jobs and be patronised by their betters.
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Actually very few singers and musicians make anything like a living wage. A few stars do for sure but there's a lot more money to be had in football than music these days.
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>> Actually very few singers and musicians make anything like a living wage. A few stars
>> do for sure but there's a lot more money to be had in football than
>> music these days.
>>
Not many footballers make a fortune. Drop below the Championship and the money can be quite ordinary.
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>> Not many footballers make a fortune.
Summer 2012
Average Premier League wages £22,353 a week – *before bonuses*
Average Championship earnings £4,059 a week
Average League Two earnings £747 a week.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 10 Dec 13 at 18:02
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"Not many footballers make a fortune. "
'Full-time' players generally start to appear in some 2nd-tier non-league clubs i.e. Conference North/South.
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>>I suspect most of the resentment comes from seeing unqualified working class lads doing rather well
I suspect that you are exactly correct. Rather sad really, but seemingly an increasing part of people's thought process.
On a whole 'nother point though, kind of a sad reflection on the inner workings of society that they are paid that much, and that the people paying them still make a profit.
Down to the target audience's penchance for football strips, season tickets and [thinly] associated merchandise.
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>> Football is designed to distract the unwashed from reality.
>>
Actually wendyball is designed to keep the riff-raff out of rugby union grounds.
In that respect, it has been quite successful.
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re: madf.
+1 ( a big '1' at that )
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>>As for football match fixing, the FA lives up to their name by doing FA.. an organisation for which the description "not fit for purpose" was invented..
The FA, like the Scottish FA, are useless but when you look to their bosses at UEFA and FIFA does it surprise you? Somehow I think that FIFA bribery Act policy document has never came to fruition.....
Everything about FIFA and Sepp Blatter stinks to high heaven, and their rules are written to an extent that no club or association is allowed to take them to court or they are automatically banished.
Bernie Ecclestone not got similar powers in F1 ??
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Betting on sports should be banned. Having said that, results in UK football matches are probably as free of corruption or fixing as humanly possible.
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>> Betting on sports should be banned. Having said that, results in UK football matches are
>> probably as free of corruption or fixing as humanly possible.
Surely betting on the results of races or competitions is integral to the very concept and origins of sport. The two are inseparable. Sport without betting would be like fish and chips without salt and vinegar.
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>> >> Betting on sports should be banned. Having said that, results in UK football matches
>> are
>> >> probably as free of corruption or fixing as humanly possible.
>>
>>
>> Surely betting on the results of races or competitions is integral to the very concept
>> and origins of sport. The two are inseparable. Sport without betting would be like fish
>> and chips without salt and vinegar.
Races, with animals yes. Betting and racing animals goes hand in hand. Thats not sport tho. Betting on human against human, with the corruptibility of the human race, means it should be banned because it can never, will never, be corruption free.
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It's just as easy to fix a horse or dog race which are of course just as much sports as boxing and football.
Betting on competitions is what humans do , from the game of darts down the local to who will win the World Cup. Organise any sort of competition and there will be betting. There is no way you could prevent it and it would simply be absurd to try. Sillier even than prohibition. Of course there is corruption and you will never stamp it out but that too is part of the human condition. You just have to do your best to keep it under control.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 10 Dec 13 at 22:42
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>> It's just as easy to fix a horse or dog race
Yes it is. But you know that as a punter.
Edit. Yes its very easy to fix a dog race (its almost the norm) but much much more difficult to fix a horse race, and although it goes on, its not as common as people think.
>> which are of course
>> just as much sports as boxing and football.
Nope, not even close.
>>
>> Betting on competitions is what humans do , from the game of darts down the
>> local to who will win the World Cup. Organise any sort of competition and there
>> will be betting. There is no way you could prevent it and it would simply
>> be absurd to try. Sillier even than prohibition. Of course there is corruption and you
>> will never stamp it out but that too is part of the human condition. You
>> just have to do your best to keep it under control.
>>
Very large sums of money are taken on football, usually spread by far eastern conglomerates, usually using legitimate on-line bookies. There is the source of the attempted corruption (Cricket suffers in the same way) That can be and should be banned, it never used to exist.
Its hardly the same as betting a few quid in an office sweep on the world cup or a round down the pub on a darts match. (When I was in a darts league there was never any betting and it wasn't cos I was a dead cert looser before you pipe up)
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 10 Dec 13 at 23:05
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So when you said "betting on sport should be banned' you actually meant "large scale betting on certain sports should be banned"?
Since most of the betting takes place in the Far East as you rightly say, banning is not really a feasible possibility. Even if it was capable of being banned it would rapidly go underground cf the drugs trade and prohibition.
No, whilst there is money and competition people will bet, one way or another. It's up to sports bodies to police their sports as best they can.
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>>Betting on sports should be banned.
Why?
You may or may not wish to do bet on sports, but what does it matter if people do?
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>> >>Betting on sports should be banned.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> You may or may not wish to do bet on sports, but what does it
>> matter if people do?
Because it corrupts the sport to the detriment of those who pay to watch it but who don't bet.
Its the paying watching punters (both live and on TV) who finance the sport, not those who bet upon it and try and corrupt the outcome.
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Its the paying watching punters (both live and on TV) who finance the sport, not those who bet upon it and try and corrupt the outcome.
So betters don't watch a football game when they have bet on it?
Remind me why betting shops have TVs showing sport in them...
Last edited by: madf on Wed 11 Dec 13 at 09:33
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>> Its the paying watching punters (both live and on TV) who finance the sport, not
>> those who bet upon it and try and corrupt the outcome.
>>
>> So betters don't watch a football game when they have bet on it?
>>
>> Remind me why betting shops have TVs showing sport in them...
The huge majority who watch football do not bet on it, and those who do have no interest in the game.
I wouldn't fall back on heavy sarcasm if i were you, you admit you know rock all about the game (clearly) so it makes you look such a pillock when you do.
Free advice, gladly given.
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>> I wouldn't fall back on heavy sarcasm if i were you, you admit you know
>> rock all about the game (clearly) so it makes you look such a pillock when
>> you do.
>>
>> Free advice, gladly given.
I am happier to be called a pillock than be a typical football supporter..:-)
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>>
>> The huge majority who watch football do not bet on it, and those who do
>> have no interest in the game
that's an odd thing to say. Many people bet on football and have more than an interest in the game. Everything from an interest in winning through to loads of avid fans of various teams that like to bet quite a bit.
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">> truth hit me as hard as learning the truth about Santa Claus
What about him? "
Er………….. he's gay - didn't you know?
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HE'S BANGING RUDOLPH!?!?!?!?
There goes my Christmas dreams.
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I don't mind working class footer-playing boys or drugged-up guitar players earning a bit of bread. The people who are really overpaid are smug thieving hobbledehoys in business, industry and finance. And there are countless thousands of the swine.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 10 Dec 13 at 18:13
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>> Football? its still damn fine entertainment.
>>
Someone tell Sam Allardyce that's what it's supposed to be.
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I was entertained when we put three past Fulham
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 11 Dec 13 at 10:49
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Lucky for you we were still under Jol and trying to get him sacked. There's a potential fixing investigation.
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I have watched soccer on TV.
Apart from the occasional skilful goal, I find it tedious.
Maybe it's different live, but I cannot justify the extortionate cost of purchasing a ticket to establish that supposition.
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My 73 year old stepfather said the same as you Rog, until I took him to the Olympic Bronze Medal play off last year between South Korea and Japan. He admitted he'd been wrong all those years and would happily go to games with me again.
My Mum was there too and amused me with her comment that we should support S Korea, as we'd fought against the Japs in the war. I asked her who did she think we'd fought against in the Korean war (there being no N and S Korea at the time, I reckon we were just fighting Koreans in general). We remained neutral, although we were sat with mostly S Koreans in a happily mixed crowd, and they turned out to be the victors.
Not all football matched are extortionate, just those involving "glamour" clubs. Avoid that handful and it's reasonable value.
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I agree, live soccer matches are great. I enjoy rugby ones more though, mostly down to the behaviour of opposing fans.
I watch Match of the Day religiously and really enjoy it. Watching an entire match on TV though isn't that entertaining. I reckon its highlights on the box or real life to enjoy a whole match.
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>> I enjoy rugby ones more though, mostly down
>> to the behaviour of opposing fans.
I was at Fulham this weekend in what's known as a "neutral" section. We were playing Aston Villa, and I was with friends who follow Villa, and sat amongst strangers of the opposing team too. We all cheered, jumped up, sighed, tutted and swore at our teams as normal and no-one turned a hair. Happily discussed various incidents with them. Just like at the rugby. Shook hands and parted peacefully (Fulham won 2-0).
Some clubs and fans are civilised.
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You could visit alower league team prices are much lower there. Still good fun you should try it at least once.
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>> its still damn fine entertainment.
No it's not. It's about 22 overpaid egomaniac twits kicking a bag of air up and down a field for 90 or so mins.
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By overpaid I assume that you mean paid lots more than you?
Although I should think the "egomaniac twits" is probably not far from the truth.
I spent some time with the Chelsea team a while ago. Several of them were quite annoying and became increasingly so as they drank.
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>> By overpaid I assume that you mean paid lots more than you?
No, lots more than most people.
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>> >> By overpaid I assume that you mean paid lots more than you?
>>
>> No, lots more than most people.
>>
But if you take the world as a whole we're overpaid by the standards of most people, and by an unimaginable amount.
It's all relative, instead of looking up and regarding myself as poor I look down and think of myself as rich.
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>>Chelsea
Having anything to do with that team or anyone associated with it is a big mistake. Yuk.
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>>Having anything to do with that team or anyone associated with it is a big mistake
I found some of the behavior of some of the people genuinely shocking.
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I'm not even remotely surprised. I makes me gag when I see small children in their shirts. Revolting club at all levels. And it's never, ever been based in, nor played in, Chelsea the place. It was created by an opportunist spiv who needed to find a use for a stadium which was built with the intention of luring Fulham FC out of its home on the river, and obtaining the riverside land at Craven Cottage for property development. The plan went wrong when Fulham declined the offer. The developer was left with an empty stadium, so set about installing a greyhound track and making up a football club. They were going to call it London FC but settled on Chelsea, as that was the next nearest borough.
The character of the creators of the club has permeated down through its history and never gone away - it's always attracted dodgy owners, dodgy players and dodgy fans ("Headhunters", neo-Nazis, you get the picture). The place has no class whatsoever.
There may be two teams in Fulham, but there's only one classy original.
I'm not biased. ;-)
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I don't think a Football Club can be evil or disgusting per se, just some of the incumbents.
Henry Norris was hardly as pure as the driven snow. Didn't he try to join Fulham and Arsenal together?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 11 Dec 13 at 13:23
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>> I don't think a Football Club can be evil or disgusting per se, just some
>> of the incumbents.
You're probably right, but, as with commercial organisations, a culture seems to pervade and perpetuate, even when the personnel change. Seems true of the club based at Walham Green Dog Track.
>> Henry Norris was hardly as pure as the driven snow. Didn't he try to join
>> Fulham and Arsenal together?
Yes, failed and moved arsenal away from Woolwich anyway. Fulham used to play in red shirts with white sleeves for a while, which arsenal pinched. In more recent years attempts were made to merge Fulham and QPR also.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 00:56
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Evil clubs?
Ever been to a Milwall game? I did . Once.
Scum.
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>> Evil clubs?
>>
>> Ever been to a Milwall game? I did . Once.
Yes, lots. The Old Den
>> Scum.
nah, "interesting"
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>> nah, "interesting"
>>
Birds of a feather, Z. West Ham, Walham Green, Millwall. Plenty in common. Common being the operative word.
:-)
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>>
>> >> nah, "interesting"
>> >>
>>
>> Birds of a feather, Z. West Ham, Walham Green, Millwall. Plenty in common.
Yeah. A Crowd.
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>> Yeah. A Crowd.
Fulham average this season 24,526.
Millwall average this season 10,440.
Pipe, smoke.
:-)
Can't find stats far back enough for the last time Fulham were in a lower divison, it's a long time ago. More recent stats in Div 2 will be available for West Ham of course.
:-)
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Aww. There you go spoiling a good argument with facts.
Bah.
;-)
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>> Can't find stats far back enough for the last time Fulham were in a lower
>> divison, it's a long time ago.
Get used to the idea, it'l be in about 4 months......
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I'd start examining that glass house you're in there, Z. Might be some gaps to get those stones through.
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we can handle it, we have the experience, you and your mob will fall to bits.
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I think our fans can handle it, plenty of experience too. The club itself? Remains to be seen. Didn't go so well the last time we dropped out of the first division....
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When Reading & Milwall were in the same division, the 3rd I think, the Mitre in Reading used to get trashed every time they played in Reading. I assume that similar happened when they were at Milwall.
I'd have shot the lot of them.
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Chelsea players of class.....
Peter "The Cat" Bonetti, Ron "The chopper" Harris, David Webb, Terry Venables, Ray "butch" Wilkins, Clive "the flasher" Walker, Jimmy Greaves, Charlie "the Bonnie Prince" Cook, Kerry Dixon, Peter Osgood, Alan Hudson. Frank Lampard.
The list is endless. (as we are talking class I left out John Terry)
Fulham Players of Class.
Jimmy Hill. Oh they also had Clive "the flasher" Walker when he was a has been. Rejected Alan Hudson as a junior. I think Sir Alfred Garnet ably described them "Johnny Haynes and the Seven Dwarves"
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>> Chelsea players of class.....
>>
>> Ron "The chopper" Harris,
Jog on. A Hammer defending Walham Green. The world has gone truly mad.
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I was rude about football supporters earlier in the thread.
The above interchange shows why: living on past (in)glories, thuggish, etc :-)
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Reminds me of Mitchell and Webb, specifically these two sketches:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN1WN0YMWZU
and
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MusyO7J2inM
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Match fixing... - BobbyG
