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A life like no other. Hat off. No more I can say.
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great man, dun good, no issue.
But - I am already peed off by the mindless press coverage.
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>>I am already peed off by the mindless press coverage.
tinyurl.com/od6gd75
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Imprisoned; he could have become so bitter but he did not.
When he came to power he chose reconciliation over revenge.
RIP to a True Statesman
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A few times I have visited the ( outside) of the prison gates and exit where he walked to freedom.
A tranquil spot that does not seem to attract many visitors although it is just a couple of easy miles from a very popular town - Franschhoek near Stellenbosch in the Cape Town region.
tinyurl.com/qcvguo9
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Amazing he took so long to die, what with that carphound Zuma poncing in and out every day, not to mention the Mandelas who aren't all pussycats by any means.
What a tough old bird he must have been. Brains, and a real, proven mensch - human being - too. I still remember feeling a bit, almost, tearful when the Boers took smart pills and let him out.
Fabulous cat, RIP.
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He was a significant man; an important and a strong man. I'm not now, nor have I ever been, sure that "good" is the right word though.
For thought, here is a different perspective, although just as biased, it comes from the other side.
www.southafricaproject.info/madela_thelegendandlegacy.html
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A great man who made a mark in the history books, and showed the world that determination and belief will always beat bitterness and anger. A peerless statesman with a unique gift with people. RIP.
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But what did he actually do? really do?
Apartheid was broken in South Africa by others.
is sainthood at this level really justified?
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>> Apartheid was broken in South Africa by others.
Yes. The Boers took smart pills.
>> is sainthood at this level really justified?
Well of course not. But Nelson Mandela managed somehow to make an image of common humanity - humanity as a quality held in common by the SA 'communities' - at a crucial, risky moment.
No mean feat, worth a bit of respect surely? Got mine anyway.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 00:29
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Friend of mine recently got back from a cruise to South Africa. He proudly showed me photos of himself on Robben Island in front of the gate where ' Mandela walked to freedom ' .
I hadn't the heart to tell him that NM was transferred to Pollsmoor on the mainland in 1982 and then to the low security Victor Verster prison, from where he was let out 6 years later. He lived pretty well in a secluded villa with a pool and his own chef !
I suppose people on Robben Island are making a living out of it all.
Ted
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I have been to Cape Town many times and we still have no plans to visit Robben Island.
It will be interesting to see what direction SA goes now Mandela is no longer quietly in the background.
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Yeah but think about it Ted... the Ka'aba, the Tomb of the Rock, fragments of the true Cross which would surely have dwarfed the forests of Germany when added up... people's belief or fantasy or whatever you call it is what matters, rather than the bit of marble or olive wood.
We call it 'culture' and that's what it is more or less.
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HE WAS A BLEEDING TERRORIST.
please discuss.
edit. It wouldn't let me enter B L O O D Y..
Last edited by: bathtub tom on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 00:28
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>> please discuss.
>> edit. It wouldn't let me enter B L O O D Y..
Caps and spaces do the trick though.
I don't think Mandela was really into mayhem bt. That stuff is a political instrument, but over-using it is often a mistake.
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Wiki: leading a bombing campaign against government targets.
He died peacefully in his sleep, UNLIKE THOSE WHO DIED SCREAMING AND IN PAIN THROUGH HIS ACTIVITIES.
Please spare me!
I'm sure other, highly estimated, political figures will follow with suitable, similar praise.
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>> SCREAMING AND IN PAIN
Talking about screaming bt, what are you screaming about? Not once have you bawled the place down like this about anything that I can remember. Yet other people - how can I put this delicately? - almost as bloodthirsty and wicked as the appalling Mandela have been mentioned here quite often. You may have commented, BUT NOT AT THE TOP OF YOUR GODDAM VOICE.
Would you care to explain?
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Please discuss!
I'm going to enjoy this thread.
I've had mixed feelings about Mandela all of my life and can never make up my mind if he was a saint or sinner.
I have also never known quite enough about it to make a decision so a car4play discussion will be great.
Pat
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>>
>> I've had mixed feelings about Mandela all of my life and can never make up
>> my mind if he was a saint or sinner.
>>
It doesn't really matter. Great moments in history need symbols and figureheads, often flawed people who rise above the commonplace, and articulate the real feelings of the masses.
Sometimes they come with baggage, like dubious "football teams", or questionable judgement, as with Churchill, but that isn't the point. They arise at vital moments, they symbolise, captivate, express, and if only for a limited duration, pull people and nations together.
But the adulation has to be turned off after a decent interval, and that is where we go wrong.
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>> But the adulation has to be turned off after a decent interval, and that is
>> where we go wrong.
First Mandela story is currently 4th most popular read on the BBC News site, just behind 'Rottweiler and Westie have puppies'.
EDIT: but it's rising up
Last edited by: Focusless on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 08:53
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>> I have also never known quite enough about it to make a decision so a
>> car4play discussion will be great.
Well in my mind his potted history goes a bit like this.
As a youngster he was an intelligent, well spoken and sincere Anti Apartheid activist and he spoke out against using violence for the cause. He go bored with that and started blowing things and people up and was sent to jail for over 20 years.
While rotting in Jail, aided by the western boycott the South Africans came to their senses, Apartheid was given the elbow, and he was let out.
HE became president and cocked up his succession and left a load of corrupt and evil people in his place.
Now all in all I wouldn't have thought that was worth pinning sainthood on his shoulders.
Someone put me right if this is fundamentally wrong.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 09:03
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Mandela dead?
Gees, they kept that quiet. I would have thought the press and TV would have been all over that one.
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Borrowed from another site:
"Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights
-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983
-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985
-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988
-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986
-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead
-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987
-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988
Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case. "
Strange isn't it - no mention at all in the UK media.
You'd think he was a saint. Perspective - please.
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We often take sinners to our midst.
Think of the current leadership of Sinn Fein who are now MPs
Mandela authorised acts of violence but to him he was fighting a war for freedom. It is an often quoted phrase but "one mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter".
What makes this man great was his ability to move on and from his past. It is not as if he did not pay for his crimes with the time he spent in prison and he potentially stopped the country descending in to a bloody civil was like the many other African countries.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 01:13
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"Think of the current leadership of Sinn Fein who are now MPs" ..... who are pretty much despised and few have a good word for.
I understand the rest of you comments zippy but can't agree. I reckon it's sentimental tosh - think of the hacked off arms, tyre necklaces and the wailing mothers.
As for SA itself - it's still pretty close to being a basket case.
Yes, he did some good - but you can't just forget the past.
I can't forgive.
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>> We often take sinners to our midst.
>>
>> Think of the current leadership of Sinn Fein who are now MPs
To be honest, I don't think much of the current leadership of Sinn Fein.
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I've never had a sensible answer from his detractors to one simple question. As a black person in Apartheid South Africa, on the wrong end of this little lot en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_legislation_in_South_Africa how would you effect change?
It's not like here where you can stick on a clapperboard and go protest. Or run for office.
Easy to criticise from here.
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>> I've never had a sensible answer from his detractors to one simple question. As a
>> black person in Apartheid South Africa, on the wrong end of this little lot en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_legislation_in_South_Africa
>> how would you effect change?
>>
>> It's not like here where you can stick on a clapperboard and go protest. Or
>> run for office.
>>
>> Easy to criticise from here.
So its ok to blow people up?
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What would you do? I asked first.
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I don't think I would kill innocent people.
On second thoughts, yes I would specially as I know I will get away with it and be feted for it further down the line.
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I think that the "terrorists" would justify it by saying it was a necessary evil - a bit like our government did when dropping tons of high explosives on women and children from a Lancaster bomber.
It's a messy thing history and best not to go digging around in it too much if you want to keep your heroes on a pedestal.
At the end of the day I guess you have to say is South Africa a better places because of Nelson Mandela an my verdict would be "yes"
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>> What would you do? I asked first.
I have answered, now you answer mine.
Apart from Killing people and languishing in prison for 20 odd years, what did NM do that gets him sainthood?
Actually physically do, I don't mean being used as a figurehead by others, but actually doing
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 11:03
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>> >> What would you do? I asked first.
>>
>> I have answered, now you answer mine.
>>
>> Apart from Killing people and languishing in prison for 20 odd years, what did NM
>> do that gets him sainthood?
>>
>> Actually physically do, I don't mean being used as a figurehead by others, but actually
>> doing
>>
Well you didn't really, did you, Zero, but OK.
He was a figurehead, a statesman, and a negotiator and consensus builder of incredible skill . He brought people together and got them talking. He made people feel good about themselves. He took a completely broken and ruined nation and made it less broken and ruined (even his biggest fans admit there is still lots to do).
What does any politician do physically?
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>> Well you didn't really, did you, Zero,
Yes I did - further up.
>> He was a figurehead, a statesman, and a negotiator and consensus builder of incredible skill
>> . He brought people together and got them talking. He made people feel good about
>> themselves. He took a completely broken and ruined nation and made it less broken and
>> ruined (even his biggest fans admit there is still lots to do).
Now I don't think he did. I think he was used as a smiley happy clappy figured head by a bunch of nasty corrupt people. (The ANC)
the nation is as broken as it was, possibly more so. He was pushed up there with promises to the people none of which has been fulfilled. Hopes and dreams inflated, delivery zero.
>> What does any politician do physically?
The real hero in all this? - F. W. de Klerk. Now that took some guts. And action.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 11:17
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>> The real hero in all this? - F. W. de Klerk. Now that took some
>> guts. And action.
>>
Yep, no argument there, and deservedly shared the Nobel peace prize.
But de Klerk clearly felt he could work with Mandela. He made quite a moving tribute on the radio this morning about how he knew Mandela was something special when they first met, and someone who he could work with to bring about reform.
He was so much more than a simple terrorist.
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>>He was so much more than a simple terrorist.
Whilst true about than the rank and file thugs, terrorist leaders are anything but simple.
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Parallels with the formation of the state of Israel by terrorism. (Including the killing of British soldiers).
The leaders of the Stern Gang went on to become the leaders of the new state, formed by mainly Eastern European immigration into a land held for many generations by other people.
Western guilt at the atrocities carried out by the Nazis on the Jews of Europe (and subsequent response to it by encouraging the settlement of Palestine) had unexpected consequences, the fall-out from which is being felt to this day.
Last edited by: Roger on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 11:17
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>>
>> Apart from Killing people and languishing in prison for 20 odd years, what did NM
>> do that gets him sainthood?
>>
I think you are misunderstanding the essential pre-condition for sainthood.
I understand that the crucial test is not what the prospective saint did, but what beneficial events or the actions of others he caused.
It's the belief of others that counts, not the human frailties of the saint.
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>>Would you care to explain?
I usually keep out of political arguments, but for some reason I feel really strongly about him. We know he's going to feted as a hero and he may have done some good work, but it doesn't detract from him being a murdering terrorist. A fact that will no doubt be conveniently omitted from the numerous eulogies. Those close to him also seemed to have criminal tendencies.
Apartheid was a nasty business, but others didn't feel the need to murder innocents to express their view.
There are others with blood on their hands (close to our shores) who are similarly acclaimed. I feel the same about them
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Neighbour of ours across the road lived in S/Africa for years.I asked him once about Mandella,not his favourite.
Apartheid the word says it all nobody wants it but don't blame it all on the Boers.The Brits threw plenty of their people in concentration camps read the history.
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>> Apartheid the word says it all nobody wants it but don't blame it all on
>> the Boers.The Brits threw plenty of their people in concentration camps read the history.
The Brits treated both the natives and the Afrikaaners very badly.
Post WW2 Apartheid though was an Afrikaaner nationalist project.
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Concentration Kamps Brompt over 43000 people the majority of children under 15 lost their lives.At least the Boers had a fair fight with the Zulus and the Brits.
Post WW2 how many blacks and whites live in poverty now in the new South Afrika.
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BT,
Who did he murder?
By the late fifties he'd been repeatedly subjected to banning orders and became convinced that peaceful protest was going nowhere. Some sources say he preferred sabotage of government property rather than mass murder type bombings.
By the time of the events listed upthread by DE Mandela had been in custody for 20 or so years. Unless he was co-ordinating them from his cell then it was his successors who did the big jobs.
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WARNING. Media overload, media overload, media overload.
STOP.
BOOM.
Too late, the world has ended and no-one noticed.
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>> Who did he murder?
Quite. He wasn't into killing.
Zero points out that the ANC had and has an oppressive, racist and corrupt side. That's true too, but these things can't reasonably be laid at Mandela's door. It's a mass movement, or was, not a dictator's project. Mandela never 'ran' the ANC. He was its figurehead or chairman.
What he did, just because of the way things fell, was to embody very plainly, at the crucial moment, the possibility that South Africa could become a non-racist country. He was a piece of good luck for everyone. I doubt that he thought he had done it all by himself.
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I have a Mandela related joke...but it may offend some people so I'll keep it to myself. Very funny though.
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Harry Enfield does a very good Mandela voice and has some terrific jokes. His TV ad for 'Nelson Mandela's Fighting Beer' is hilarious. Ends with a smiling Mandala holding out a can or bottle and asking menacingly: 'Do you want some?'
I would have expected the man himself to find it funny.
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The comedian who goes by the name of the Pub Landlord, reflecting on East End mosques, fantasised cockney Imams and cockney faithful, and improvised rather a good cockney prayer-call which went something like
" 'Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo wants some?"
Made me giggle anyway.
Time for that bad-taste Mandela joke RP. Don't wind us up.
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>> I have a Mandela related joke...but it may offend some people so I'll keep it
>> to myself. Very funny though.
>>
Oi, you can't do that. I want to know now, can't you hide it in one of those things you mods can do..and then only the nosey need open it.
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>> >> I have a Mandela related joke...but it may offend some people so I'll keep
>> it
>> >> to myself.
Was it this one?
'Stupid ignorant people who question the significance of what Nelson Mandela achieved have clearly never seen his 'I Have A Dream' speech'.
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Funny as well....not the one I've heard...! :-)
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>> Funny as well....not the one I've heard...! :-)
>>
>>
Thousands are said to be gathering outside Nelson Mandela house.....
Delboy and Rodney have told them to sod off
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>> Oi, you can't do that. I want to know now, can't you hide it in
>> one of those things you mods can do..and then only the nosey need open it.
Just take a look at Sickipedia. Bound to be a load on there.
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>> Mandela never 'ran' the ANC. He was
>> its figurehead or chairman.
Nice try AC.
He was the leader, a leader, a person in authority within that organisation.
He has the blood of completely innocent churchgoers on his hands, not because he physically planted the bomb, but because he sanctioned it (whilst in prison).
In that respect he's no different to Gerry Adams.
I do however think he made a good go at being President and was most conciliatory at a time when there could have been complete bloodshed, so his leadership was, on the whole, successful (especially when you look at the mess now).
He did a load of good...however, it greatly irritates me when people paste over the bad..and there was some.
Where is the bad mentioned in our press?
Has the BBC been completely unbiased?.... Er, no.
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>>
>> In that respect he's no different to Gerry Adams.
>>
>>
But many would argue that Northern Ireland is a much better place thanks to people like Gerry Adams. No armed insurrection will ever be pretty and innocent people will be among the victims, but it wasn't till the IRA re-activated in the early seventies that the process which ended the reality of one third of the NI population being treated like animals began - something the British government were happy to turn a blind eye to for decades.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 18:21
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>> But many would argue that Northern Ireland is a much better place thanks to people
>> like Gerry Adams.
If you can find some good in the scenario where an IRA mob attends a lady's house and forcibly removes her in front of her seven young children..and then kills her, burying her body on some remote beach..leaving her kids to wonder for over 20 years......
.......then you are a better man than I am.
I listened to her son on the Jeremy Vine show..it was one of the most moving things I've ever heard....and confirms what an utter slime ball Gerry Adams is.
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>>
>> If you can find some good in the scenario where an IRA mob attends a
>> lady's house and forcibly removes her in front of her seven young children..and then kills
>> her, burying her body on some remote beach..leaving her kids to wonder for over 20
>> years......
>>
>> .......then you are a better man than I am.
>>
>>
The argument isn't a move to justify every action of the IRA or any other group who feel they have just cause to take up arms - but an understanding of how it is often necessary to do so if you are fighting for freedom and basic human rights. Excesses will happen on both sides once the violence starts, just as it did when thirteen unarmed Catholic civilians were murdered by the army in 1972.
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>> The argument isn't a move to justify every action of the IRA or any other
>> group who feel they have just cause to take up arms - but an understanding
>> of how it is often necessary to do so if you are fighting for freedom
>> and basic human rights. Excesses will happen on both sides once the violence starts, just
>> as it did when thirteen unarmed Catholic civilians were murdered by the army in 1972.
You obviously see life through a different set of eyes than I do.
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>> but an understanding
>> of how it is often necessary to do so if you are fighting for freedom
>> and basic human rights.
I might 'wear' that if we were talking about a Communist state or dictatorship of the worst kind.
We are not, are we?
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>> I might 'wear' that if we were talking about a Communist state or dictatorship of
>> the worst kind.
I think, to be fair, if you were black, Apartheid South Africa qualified on the second of those criteria.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 23:42
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>> >> I might 'wear' that if we were talking about a Communist state or dictatorship
>> of
>> >> the worst kind.
>>
>> I think, to be fair, if you were black, Apartheid South Africa qualified on the
>> second of those criteria.
I thought Westpig was referring to Northern Ireland there.
But I still think it depends which end of the telescope you are looking down.
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>> I thought Westpig was referring to Northern Ireland there.
I was.
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>> But I still think it depends which end of the telescope you are looking down.
Exactly.
The difference between a terrorist, and a freedom fighter?
The viewpoint of the person naming the terrorist / freedom fighter.
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Exactly right ST. When the US launched its War on Terrorism, the Pakistanis, Israelis and Iranians did the same....the Government of the day will always paint anyone violently against them as Terrorists. You then have to use your skill and judgement to decide who is right. Got worse in recent years. Who's right in Syria for instance ?
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>> might 'wear' that if we were talking about a Communist state or dictatorship of the worst kind.
>> We are not, are we?
Depends on your point of view.
You aren't the only person to think that Wp even here (let alone in the Conservative Party in the heyday of apartheid). But there is an opposed view which I prefer because it's based on personal testimony. Brutal and violent treatment of blacks by white policemen wasn't just commonplace, it was absolute routine. If you were black in those days it would have looked like a dictatorship anyway of a quite bad sort if not the very worst... it's hard to make fine distinctions when you're being hit on the head with a truncheon and left bleeding in a cell for 72 hours.
I knew slightly a white South African woman intellectual who was murdered by the South African government with a letter bomb sent to her in Mozambique. Met other ANC members and hangers-on who were louche and spooky, even the ones like her who were communist. It could be a spooky scene, anti-apartheid at close quarters. But the cause was a sound one really, it blew all frivolity and time-serving into the weeds.
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>> I might 'wear' that if we were talking about a Communist state or dictatorship of
>> the worst kind.
>>
>> We are not, are we?
There's a long history though isn't there?
The Irish/Catholic population in NI were treated very badly in the era of the Stormont Parliament. Discrimination in housing and employment was widespread and the electoral process at all levels corrupted in favour of Unionists. The ballot box was of no use whatever as a tool for bringing about change.
Following 'crackdowns' on demonstrations by the nascent civil rights movement in 68/9 troops were sent in to keep the peace. Initially that was seen in terms of protecting the minority population.
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>> There's a long history though isn't there?
Gandhi I admire.
Someone willing to blow up innocent people, I do not.
It matters not what colour /religion / race or whatever they are, or whether they are 'my' side or the 'opposition'....I fail to see why individuals who could do something else, choose to deliberately harm innocents as part of their battle.
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>>
>>
>> Following 'crackdowns' on demonstrations by the nascent civil rights movement in 68/9 troops were sent
>> in to keep the peace. Initially that was seen in terms of protecting the minority
>> population.
>>
Exactly, and the army was initially welcomed by the Catholic population who stood by the roadside cheering as they arrived and were bringing them out cups of tea. But by it's very nature the army is an instrument of the state and in a civil disorder their aim is to protect the status quo. And the status quo in NI at that time was a corrupt and sectarian devolved Stormont government and a national government in Westminster who just wanted the whole business to go away. Whatever the excesses of the nationalists in NI (Matched by the Unionists with the RUC largely turning a blind eye and sometimes assisting) it was only the armed uprising that forced the UK government to start the process of resolving the situation.
It's easy to condemn violence from a distance, but if you were a red blooded black in SA or a Catholic one in NI during those times, what would YOU have done? Sat back and took more of the same for the rest of your life?
The world isn't divided into neat sections of black and white.
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>> The world isn't divided into neat sections of black and white.
>>
Thankfully not as much as it was, since the end of Apartheid.
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>> It's easy to condemn violence from a distance, but if you were a red blooded
>> black in SA or a Catholic one in NI during those times, what would YOU
>> have done? Sat back and took more of the same for the rest of your
>> life?
>>
>> The world isn't divided into neat sections of black and white.
>>
I agree with all of that...and despise the armchair warriors who use hindsight to judge...but... I cannot in any way agree with setting a bomb in a church, so that innocent men, women and children get blown to pieces. That is plain wrong and no one will convince me otherwise.
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>>
>> I agree with all of that...and despise the armchair warriors who use hindsight to judge...but...
>> I cannot in any way agree with setting a bomb in a church, so that
>> innocent men, women and children get blown to pieces. That is plain wrong and no
>> one will convince me otherwise.
>>
And I fully endorse what you've said there. But that's the problem when you let a situation escalate to the point where armed resistance is seen as a legitimate solution, you allow a foothold for those who are just interested in violence for it's own sake to use whatever the noble cause is as justification for their own excesses.
History should long ago have taught us that if you stand by and allow
oppression of a race, creed or colour to continue unabated there will eventually be a heavy price to pay.
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>> And I fully endorse what you've said there. But that's the problem when you let
>> a situation escalate to the point where armed resistance is seen as a legitimate solution,
>> you allow a foothold for those who are just interested in violence for it's own
>> sake to use whatever the noble cause is as justification for their own excesses.
In both SA and NI armed resistance was seen by some as not just legitimate but the only solution.
In neither case was the ballot box an option and peaceful civil disobedience was rapidly met with considerable brutality by police forces controlled by the dominant group.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 7 Dec 13 at 16:16
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>> Apartheid was a nasty business, but others didn't feel the need to murder innocents to express their view.
Killing people merely to 'express a view' is the sort of thing half-witted Islamists do. The ANC did its acts of violence not to 'express a view' but to help overthrow a regime that had racism built into it as a policy.
The regime's days were numbered anyway since the world had moved on and apartheid was being widely condemned, so not much violence was needed. I agree with others that De Klerk deserves much credit too.
When I was a child and adolescent racism was thought quite normal and was systematically preached by (among others) the Beaverbrook Press in this country. Take a look at your old Rupert Bear books if you don't remember. Things couldn't change fast enough for me, but it seems others have a certain nostalgia for that stuff.
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Now THIS is what I call hyperbole!
Peter Oborne shows whsat a complete knobhead he is!
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100249502/few-human-beings-can-be-compared-to-jesus-christ-nelson-mandela-was-one/
Last edited by: Roger on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 16:47
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If that particular article is representative of what Peter Oborne claims to have written, then "knobhead" is a sadly inadequate word.
The problem with idiots like Oborne is that the unwary may believe what he writes.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 01:12
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May I offend all of you at once?
‘Nelson Mandela dies at 95′ Respect where it’s due… That’s 5 miles an hour faster than Paul Walker
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Not only does that not offend me, it made me smile and I shall probably repeat it.
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>> The problem with idiots like Oborne is that the unwary may believe what he writes.
Your visceral hatred of that piece is clear enough, FMR, but the reasons for it aren't. I am curious.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 01:12
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"……………...the reasons for it aren't. I am curious. "
It must surely qualify for a Private Eye 'Brown Nose' Award at the very least?
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>> Private Eye 'Brown Nose' Award at the very least?
Perhaps you're right Haywain. Oborne could be putting it on, but he seems to me to be emotional and sometimes a bit soppy. I don't see those as disastrously bad faults in a hack. Perhaps comparisons with Gandhi and Jesus are a bit much, and those lists of good guys and bad guys always make one feel a bit argumentative. But that piece wasn't dishonest or misleading as hagiographies go. Or did I miss something?
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I object to the article for a variety of reasons, far too complex and boring to enter into.
Suffice to say its simplistic, tabloid-worthy, and lazy.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 18:58
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>> simplistic, tabloid-worthy, and lazy.
Perhaps. But Oborne's just earning a living. Why not come really clean and blame the market?
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I don;t understand your comment "Why not come really clean and....".
Are you under impression that I am hiding something? I would have thought I was pretty clear about my beliefs and reasoning virtually all the time [I'd say "all" but one never knows].
I neither hold views to impress others, nor express them to impress myself.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 6 Dec 13 at 19:34
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>> Are you under impression that I am hiding something?
Good God, of course not. I don't doubt your integrity. No, I meant come clean as a member of the market which consists of newspaper readers. All I meant was that Oborne churns stuff out for a market (something I regard as perfectly acceptable provided he isn't peddling views that offend me).
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I don't really understand AC. I may have had the wrong end of the stick but I can't see where the right one is ref: the come clean comment.
Nonetheless, I do agree that Oborne, and all the others, would either not do it or not have the opportunity to do it, if it wasn't revenue generating.
I laugh at the talk of press regulation when all that is necessary is for people not to buy anything they think unacceptable. Newspapers will maintain any stance they feel likely to protect their long term revenues, and will cease any behaviour likely to risk them.
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One of my FB friends has posted a couple of (very funny) jokes about Mr Mandela...in no way offensive...and he is being chided by others.....have we lost ourselves ?
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>>have we lost ourselves ?
Precisely what Lady Dog quite frequently asks.
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>> One of my FB friends has posted a couple of (very funny) jokes about Mr Mandela...in no way offensive...and he is being chided by others.....have we lost ourselves ?
Yes we have.
Do you remember a 'fly on the wall' about firefighters?
There was uproar over a scene filmed where the lads having some R&R were laughing and joking, after a particularly nasty callout,
The kind of things those (and the other emergency services) see, you NEED to put the horror to the back of your mind, or you would go crazy.
And what better way, than in (black?) humour?
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Oh for the love of God.
First it's 24 hour wall to wall media coverage and now....
... a well known black South African dies and we now have a minute's applause* at the start of today's football matches.
* PS It used to be silence, but over the past few years footballing types seem to have decided on applause as a celebration of life in-lieu of silence on some occasions.
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate on Sat 7 Dec 13 at 13:08
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For anyone still interested (there has been overkill), there's a long and detailed piece by the Afrikaner writer Rian Malan in today's comic which I recommend. It has proper balance, although of course it will confirm some people's darkest suspicions.
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My daily rag had little of the matter until I arrived at the centre pages...then it started. !
Conveniently, it was a pull out section, which meant I could, er....pull it out and file it in the recycling bin straight away.
Flag at half mast on Little Throbbington parish hall.........WTF for ?
Ted
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>> Flag at half mast on Little Throbbington parish hall.........WTF for ?
I can remember taking much the same attitude - overt scepticism and disrespect - when Churchill died, wreaking havoc with the TV schedules. But I was younger then and didn't buy the idea of 'great men'.
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>> >> Flag at half mast on Little Throbbington parish hall.........WTF for ?
Human beings are often like sheep..many don't think for themsleves
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On balance, if I had a flag I'd lower it.
Listened this morning to "From our own correspondent", including among other John Simpson and Fergal Keane's memories.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03kp474
It's pretty obvious that NM could not have been a saint, otherwise he would never have been a successful politician. That's just reality.
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Rod Liddle criticises BBC for too much coverage of Nelson Mandela death
www.theguardian.com/media/2013/dec/06/rod-liddle-bbc-nelson-mandela-spectator
Couldn't agree more.
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So he has added to it. Any amount of Rod Liddle is too much. Shackle him to James Delingpole so they can wind each other up without bothering the rest of us.
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Daily Mash has two Mandela items, not offensive, not unbearably pious though.
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>> Rod Liddle criticises BBC for too much coverage of Nelson Mandela death
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/media/2013/dec/06/rod-liddle-bbc-nelson-mandela-spectator
>>
>> Couldn't agree more.
>>
Neither could I
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I was listening to John Humphrys on R4 on Friday morning, someone who I normally regard as a level headed and unbiased presenter. His 14 year old schoolgirl crush gushing worship of Mandela was a mixture of embarrassing and hilarious. I remember it being the same when the man was released from prison, a newsworthy event but the BBC went way over the top with it's coverage to the annoyance of most of it's viewers and listeners.
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BBC news is grossly overmanned. Lord Sugar suggested 300%.
So all the underemployed rush to seize the opportunity to be seen working. Mandela's death is one such opportunity..
Last edited by: madf on Sun 8 Dec 13 at 13:26
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Much as I respect Sugar's business acumen, we know which end of the quality/cost axis he lives at.
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The BBC is *massively* overstaffed and inefficient. In some areas I suspect rather more than 300%, others obviously less.
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The BBC is full of homosexuals and lesbians too (where's Dave when you need him)
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>>homosexuals and lesbians
"and" ?
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>>"and" ?
Some rather pleasant knowledgeable folkies.
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>> The BBC is *massively* overstaffed and inefficient. In some areas I suspect rather more than
>> 300%, others obviously less.
>>
I can't say I know a great deal about the internal workings of the BBC. What makes you think that?
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Still the same now as then?
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My last professional contact was about 20 months ago.
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Thanks. Fair recently then, could you ever see it changing?
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Its very complicated; The history, their funding arrangements, the Ofcom oversight, the perceived role of a PSB, the insular environment etc. etc. make change very difficult.
Gradually I guess it must as more and more management incumbents come from the modern world, but its deathly slow.
One of the problems is that everything is so unclear. It needs to start from the beginning;
What is a PSB?
What is the goal, function, charter, role of a PSB?
By what metrics should a PSB be judged?
What role should Ofcom play in that environment?
and so much more....
Sort those out, and then at least we'd know where we're trying to go.
In particular it is yet another area where we need to know if our primary goal is effectiveness or efficiency.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 8 Dec 13 at 14:48
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I just checked, it was about 14 months ago.
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A single example;
www.theguardian.com/media/2013/may/24/bbc-technology-project-digital-media-initiative
They did it wrong. They were warned. It shouldn't have been done in the first place, at least it should have been stopped in 2010. Even the National Audit Office in 2011 said it was awful and 2 years behind yet the BBC Trust said it was alright now and should continue.
So many fundamental issues. And Linwood, who indeed should share some of the blame for continuing the shambles, joined the BBC more than 12 months after the project and the project approach were approved. In fact, the approach was screwed and they were already over £10m in the toilet by the time he did join.
So where are the other culpable people?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 8 Dec 13 at 15:11
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Sorry, my predictive text is playing up again, it should have read hagiomaniacs and lefties.
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>> Sorry, my predictive text is playing up again, it should have read hagiomaniacs and lefties.
Nice save, Rover.
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In the past there were times when I had truck with the BBC, both radio and TV, here and in the 'field'. It is a huge institution with many tendrils stretching into government, the state and their various agencies.
On several occasions abroad I found its presence helpful and reassuring. I generally get on well with the sort of person it had in those days as staff. Its slow-moving, complex bureaucracy meant that when you did anything for it you had to jump through hoops and wait for the rather stingy money it paid freelances. I guess you might say it was 'overstaffed'.
But so what? A lot of institutions are. The Beeb isn't 'a public broadcasting service': it's the world's oldest, biggest and most respected one worldwide. It is what it is. This mercantilist fixation on 'efficiency' could end by turning it into another CNN if the powers that be take any notice. Leave the damn thing alone FMR (unless you can discourage it from buying half-witted software packages from spivs).
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 8 Dec 13 at 15:21
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Don't be a fool AC; the BBC and its funding are already under threat and under the spotlight. If the BBC does not get its own house in order then someone else will be appointed to try, sooner or later.
And that is not likely to go well for anybody.
This country needs PSBs. But it needs to determine what it wants them to be and then measure them against that; not subject them to wandering goals, arbitrary rulings and sporadic interference.
Head/sand/bury helps no one.
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>>buying half-witted software packages from spivs
The only thing Siemens did wrong was take the contract.
£70m for a project without defined objectives, without defined deliverables, benefits or timescales, and WITHOUT a competitive process.
And then for the Trust to authorise and continue at two further disastrous check points is outrageous.
That is appalling from any organisation.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 8 Dec 13 at 15:32
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I've lost my blind faith in the Beeb in the last twelve months. I am acquainted with someone who quit her career (journalist) because of the way programmes (factual) are produced....she muttered darkly about "perceived impartiality..." - I still love Radio 4 though....deeply.
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There are too many channels being funded. BBC 3 is pointless, Six Music should have been allowed to die and Radio Three has next to no audience. 24 hour news is un-necessary as there simply isn't that much news, they just repeat the same thing at fifteen minute intervals. S4C in Wales pulls an audience that is often too small to measure and local radio is already well served by commercial stations.
I don't know how much has changed since the eighties, but M Thatcher used to ask why the BBC used three times as many studio personnel to present any interviews she took part in as ITV for the same output. I wouldn't mind if the quality was there, but wasting money on crap like East Enders and Strictly this or that shouldn't happen, the Beeb does not need to chase audiences and the lightweight froth should be left to the commercial channels.
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My personal opinion is that the BBC should be there to provide valuable content that otherwise would not be freely available to the general public and that should be coupled with bias / agenda-free editorial policies.
So, some examples of what I think;
I think it should do Strictly, I can't see that there is much dancing available elsewhere.
I think it should not do Eastenders, there are plenty of soaps freely available.
I think it should make some sport* freely available, rather than only CA.
I think quality investigations, documentaries and studies should be part of its remit.
I think it should not do the Voice, there is no shortage of such programs.
*rather I mean some of all sports, rather than some sports
If my personal opinion was representative of what the country wants its PSB to be, then that PSB should find the best way of doing it.
- Taxation funded is the best way, since advertising influences editorial decision.
- Having decided we want a PSB it should be protected, and screw level playing fields and fair competition.
- The organisation should be managed and operate efficiently given its goals.
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>> 24 hour news
>> is un-necessary as there simply isn't that much news, they just repeat the same thing
>> at fifteen minute intervals.
Thats what a 24 hours news channel does, you can pop in at get a 15 minute news update any time of the day, you don't sit there and watch it for hours on end. Or do you?
You have to remember the BBC news is a global broadcast. Commercial one outside the UK, and it earns a fair few bob doing it.
I like the BBC, any broadcaster that is attacked by the left and right for being biased has pitched it just about right in my book.
And its output is superior to ANY broadcaster anywhere in the world, by a very very large margin.
If that means a few quid is wasted then so be it. I am happy for my taxes to fund it and to pay the license fee for it in its present state.
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>> the BBC and its funding are already under threat and under the spotlight. If the BBC does not get its own house in order then someone else will be appointed to try, sooner or later.
Arguments over the licence fee and what the Beeb ought to be doing have been going on ever since I can remember, with variable vehemence. A whole succession of recent new brooms has left it more confused than ever.
Obviously it would be no bad thing if another new broom tidied it up a bit, but the mercantilist approach you seem to favour would fillet it and turn it into something different and a bit foreign. As an old, large quasi-state institution it has an inertia and an autonomy that are advantages as well as weaknesses.
And do we really want a flood of unemployed homosexualists and lefties mincing and marching onto the employment market in a time of austerity? Do me a favour...
:o}
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 8 Dec 13 at 15:57
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And the little dog laughed to see such fun.
:o)
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A PSB is a very important thing. I don't think you'd like it without one.
However bad I think the BBC is, we are better with it than without it.
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>> However bad I think the BBC is, we are better with it than without it.
Well, quite. I would go further though, and say that we are better off with the BBC which is our PSB than we would be with another one or another two. With all its faults, and they are many.
Whether this makes me a sentimentalist or a simple British reactionary I can't tell. A bit of both perhaps.
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"And its output is superior to ANY broadcaster anywhere in the world, by a very very large margin."
Agreed with Zero again - where are my pills ?
However, having said that, I reckon the standard of TV output globally is pretty rapidly declining in terms of quality of shows, originality, current affairs impartiality, repeats etc. etc., so the bar is set pretty low and it's getting lower.
We really do seem to only get the best of the best overseas TV shows here in UK because the rest of it out there is dross. But, it's interesting how our TV show formats are copied the world over going back as far as Till Death Do Us Part.
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Only two or three others here will remember WW2 news bulletins. 'This is the BBC Home Service. Here is the news. Allied forces are... '
The received English pronunciation then used by announcers and other broadcasters sounds pinched and pretentious to a modern ear, but quite a lot of people talked like that in those days. I can't help being sentimental about the BBC because it's been right there, all my life.
It does seem to have become a bit overblown with perhaps a channel or so too many. Some recent dgs may have had a touch of folie de grandeur. And I so despise trashy game shows and 'reality' programmes that I don't think it ought to do those at all. 'I'm a talentless exhibitionist, please please please keep me in here.' Tchah!
I do remember that foreign hacks encountered in Africa often had their transistor radios tuned to the World Service.
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>> Only two or three others here will remember WW2 news bulletins. 'This is the BBC
>> Home Service. Here is the news.
You missed out - "Read by"
Allied forces are... '
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>> You missed out - "Read by"
Heh heh... Alvar Liddell might it have been sometimes? Perhaps he was later. So you were there too Duncan. The green tuning eye on the front of the wireless, and the whines and whistles it made anyway... The gloomy anxiety of the parents as they listened, too.
I won't say 'Happy days'. That would be an exaggeration.
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>> The green tuning eye on the front of the wireless, and> the whines and whistles it made anyway...
>> The gloomy anxiety of the parents as they listened, too.
>>
>> I won't say 'Happy days'. That would be an exaggeration.
>>
I do not recall that. I do recall having to get the " accumulator" changed and also later on, my mother having to pay Radio Rentals.
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>> I do remember that foreign hacks encountered in Africa often had their transistor radios tuned
>> to the World Service.
As well as those learning English, who learned to speak it punctuated by short wave heterodynes?
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>> short wave heterodynes?
Is that techspeak for those ooooeeeeeooooooo noises Manatee?
If so I wonder why we were listening to short wave... perhaps they were listening to Lord Hawhaw sometimes. That would have made them look gloomy.
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Had I known that they were called ooooeeeeeooooooo noises I wouldn't have had to pretend to know the technical term!
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>>As well as those learning English
About a billion years ago I was in Sao Paulo, Brazil and got chatting with a very pleasant, older chap in a bar.
A very British accent, and slightly obsessed with The West Country we spoke on and off over a period of time.
At some point I asked him how long he'd been in Brazil, he replied that he was Brazilian. It further transpired that he'd never been out of the state of Sao Paulo.
He learned English by combining listening to the World Service, reading old books in English and chatting to Brits on the rare occasions he met one.
It wasn't just that his accent and pronunciation were British, it was that his vocabulary was as well.
Never in a millions years would I have detected that he was not a natural and British English speaker.
A great bloke, although sadly we lost contact.
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>> and slightly obsessed with The West Country
nothing wrong with that
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Hopefully this hasn't already been mentioned?
A shop boss was arrested and quizzed by police for eight hours for cracking Nelson Mandela jokes on the internet.
Neil Phillips said he was fingerprinted, DNA-swabbed and had his computers seized.
Police swooped after a councillor complained over the gags about the former South African leader, who passed away on Thursday, aged 95.
www.nationalreview.com/corner/365825/british-man-arrested-making-nelson-mandela-joke-charles-c-w-cooke
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Yes: saw it reported.
Without seeing the actual words it's had to be sure. If the jokes were merely "tasteless" it is a frightening indication how far certain "authorities" are prepared to go to control people's thoughts and opinions.
If they were genuinely full-out "racist", there are laws to control that element of comment.
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>> Without seeing the actual words it's had to be sure.
DM reported "In one online post, the 44-year-old wrote: 'My PC takes so long to shut down I’ve decided to call it Nelson Mandela.'"
Don't give up the day job, but hardly criminal? Perhaps there were others.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520662/Neil-Phillips-quizzed-8-HOURS-police-Nelson-Mandela-Twitter-jokes.html
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= the conferring of sainthood on a (usually defunct) individual.
But it's less distasteful than the opposite. I enjoy the noisy Jon Stewart's Late Show. Stewart has sound attitudes. I caught the show tonight and he was scoffing at a lot of stuff he'd seen calling Nelson Mandela a clenched-fist terrorist and listing his alleged crimes. Several of the quotes reminded me vividly of stuff I've seen right here.
I wouldn't want to accuse anyone here of lacking originality or not being able to think for themselves or being deep down closet racists. But is it just possible that this malevolent crap might come from the same source or sources? 'Anti-communism' was seldom serious and often moronic, but it lives on, ridiculously, long after the collapse of communism.
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>> I wouldn't want to accuse anyone here of lacking originality or not being able to
>> think for themselves or being deep down closet racists.
The trouble is AC.
Your statement above could easily have some element of truth in it..and equally so, for some, it will be not be so....i.e. the thinker coming from the alternate angle to you might well just be querying the positive only attributes given to Mandela that ignore the negative...(as opposed to subliminally or openly not liking him for race reasons).
...then when you bung in the unthinking or unpleasant who start from your angle and who shout 'racist' at the first hurdle to counter act any kind of alternate thinking or view point to them...
....it all gets complicated.
Personally, I think those that deliberately shout others down by unnecessarily using the race card (whether knowingly or not) are as bad as the out and out racists...because they prevent free speech and add to the ongoing problems in society by suppressing free thinking decent people who don't like it.
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Enough already, about Mandela. Let the great man rest in peace.
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>> Let the great man rest in peace.
>>
I would point out that he hasn't actually been buried yet. Take place on Sunday 15th December at a place called Qunu
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>> Enough already, about Mandela. Let the great man rest in peace.
>>
Never understand why we still use the term "Rest in Peace". He ain't resting, he's dead.
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>>
>> Never understand why we still use the term "Rest in Peace". He ain't resting, he's
>> dead.
>>
Requiescat in Pace (RIP) is a quotation from the Catholic Prayer for the Dead.
It is intended to help the soul in its passage through purgatory. Non-catholic religions usually do not believe in the concept of purgatory, or that praying for the souls therein can be of any help.
Nelson Mandela was I think a methodist, so praying for his soul will serve no purpose. It would indeed be offensive to some non-catholics.
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Wed 11 Dec 13 at 13:12
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>>Nelson Mandela was I think a methodist, so praying for his soul will serve no purpose.
Why not?
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>> >>Nelson Mandela was I think a methodist, so praying for his soul will serve no
>> purpose.
>>
>> Why not?
>>
If we allow that the deceased are entitled to the respect due to their beliefs, rather than the beliefs of others, then we have to acknowledge that as a non-catholic he did not believe in purgatory, did not believe that his soul had to pass through purgatory, so did not believe that praying for it would serve any purpose.
I suppose we could impose our own beliefs on him if we wanted to, but that would hardly be in keeping with the spirit of the occasion.
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>> Nelson Mandela was I think a methodist, so praying for his soul will serve no
>> purpose.
Doesn't matter what creed he followed, it would serve no purpose anyway (other than to assuage the fears of the credulous living) given that we've near enough proven the non-existence of a "God" (Hawking has pretty much answered the question).
Last edited by: Alanović on Wed 11 Dec 13 at 13:21
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>> Doesn't matter what creed he followed, it would serve no purpose anyway (other than to
>> assuage the fears of the credulous living) given that we've near enough proven the non-existence
>> of a "God" (Hawking has pretty much answered the question).
Never understood that. But then I can't understand most of what he says, any more than just about everybody else can.
It's all very well to say that the universe's existence is an inevitable consequence of the laws of nature, but where did they come from?
As a proof of the non-existence of God (and I think what he actually said was that a creator was not necessary to explain the existence of the universe) it is really no more conclusive than replacing the biblical creation with the big bang.
I don't believe in the supernatural either, but there are plenty of highly intelligent followers of religion. The exact nature of what they believe in varies of course.
The vicar here a few years ago told me it didn't matter whether I believed or not, God still looked on me as one of His flock!
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>>
>> The vicar here a few years ago told me it didn't matter whether I believed
>> or not, God still looked on me as one of His flock!
>>
Well the priests used to tell me that if I didn't unquestioningly believe in God's existence he would send me to burn in Hell for eternity.
And all because he LOVED me...
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 11 Dec 13 at 13:47
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>> >>
>> >> The vicar here a few years ago told me it didn't matter whether I
>> believed
>> >> or not, God still looked on me as one of His flock!
>> >>
>>
>> Well the priests used to tell me that if I didn't unquestioningly believe in God's
>> existence he would send me to burn in Hell for eternity.
>>
>> And all because he LOVED me...
I think we can guess what persuasion they were of.
If you're going to be religious, at least pick a tolerant one would be my plan ;)
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As I understand it, wholehearted and complete repentance enables you to get into Heaven.
Short of being hit by a bus I didn't see coming, my plan is to occupy the last 30 seconds of my life with some serious repenting. Until then................
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>> As I understand it, wholehearted and complete repentance enables you to get into Heaven.
>>
>> Short of being hit by a bus I didn't see coming, my plan is to
>> occupy the last 30 seconds of my life with some serious repenting. Until then................
>>
In one fairy story. You'll have to research the other couple of thousand as well and behave accordingly if you want to have a chance of getting it right.
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Surely repentance must improve your chances in most of them? Any of them which require a life time of good behaviour I am dismissing as unlikely and impractical. (and its too late, anyway).
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>>
>> I think we can guess what persuasion they were of.
>>
>> If you're going to be religious, at least pick a tolerant one would be my
>> plan ;)
>>
Very few people "Pick" a religion. It's foisted on one from birth.
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>> >>
foisted on one from birth.
>>
Brainwashing. Often sticks, sometimes can be overcome by rational thought.
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>> Very few people "Pick" a religion. It's foisted on one from birth.
Hence the ;)
I did OK as far as it went - Quakers don't really do fire and brimstone.
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>> Quakers don't really do fire and brimstone.
No. Probably the most civilised Christian cult, almost not Christian in a way. Some Lutherans are very cool too.
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If you get into metaphysics and the origins of the Universe, then it is conceivable the "Big Bang" was caused by someone..
Or not.
Or is just an interesting theory which does not quite fit all the facts
or is an illusion in a universe which is all an illusion and we are just dreaming all this like in The Matrix..
Or there is a God..
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>> Doesn't matter what creed he followed, it would serve no purpose anyway (other than to
>> assuage the fears of the credulous living) given that we've near enough proven the non-existence
>> of a "God" (Hawking has pretty much answered the question).
>>
You can prove and assert as much as you like mate but I'll stick to what I believe thank you very much.
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No doubt if there an overarching force that brought into creation hundreds of billions of galaxies, each containing hundreds of billions of stars... they then sent their only son to one tiny speck in a not-very-special galaxy to die so that others would believe in the existence and dominion of the aforementioned overarching force...
And that this force also 'listens' to and responds to the prayers of the inhabitants of the world.
At least those inhabitants who have chosen the right version of subservience to this power, rather than one of the other ten thousand sects/cults/religions that have developed as the dominant species has evolved and become more populace.
Mwahahahahahaaaa..................
Just face it - the very vast majority believe what their parents did, and what they were taught as children - if that isn't enough of a clue to tell you religion per se is utter gash, then congratulations for taking a backwards evolutionary step.
Spiritual belief? I can understand that.
Religious belief? Politics. Pure and simple.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 11 Dec 13 at 22:26
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>>
>> >> Doesn't matter what creed he followed, it would serve no purpose anyway (other than
>> to
>> >> assuage the fears of the credulous living) given that we've near enough proven the
>> non-existence
>> >> of a "God" (Hawking has pretty much answered the question).
>> >>
>>
>>
>> You can prove and assert as much as you like mate but I'll stick to
>> what I believe thank you very much.
I'll keep all my bases covered, just in case.
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>> I'll keep all my bases covered, just in case.
>>
So how is your Zoroastrian base being covered this Christmas?
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"So how is your Zoroastrian base being covered this Christmas?"
He's a Zeroastrian.
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Well, if ever there were a lonely calling, that's it.
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>> Enough already, about Mandela.
Says the man who brought the thread back to the top of the list!
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>> Personally, I think those that deliberately shout others down by unnecessarily using the race card
>> (whether knowingly or not) are as bad as the out and out racists...because they prevent
>> free speech and add to the ongoing problems in society by suppressing free thinking decent
>> people who don't like it.
There's a contrary point though.
As soon as anyone offers a suggestion that even inadvertent racism is involved they're accused of 'playing the race card'.
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"As soon as anyone offers a suggestion that even inadvertent racism is involved they're accused of 'playing the race card'."
Yes often used. There's a lot of casual racism about that often draws that response if it is pointed out.
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>> Hopefully this hasn't already been mentioned?
>>
>> A shop boss was arrested and quizzed by police for eight hours for cracking Nelson
>> Mandela jokes on the internet.
>>
>> Neil Phillips said he was fingerprinted, DNA-swabbed and had his computers seized.
>>
>> Police swooped after a councillor complained over the gags about the former South African leader,
>> who passed away on Thursday, aged 95.
If it was reported as a 'hate crime' then the police are obliged to take it seriously and investigate - even if their coppers noses tell them it's nothing.
If Mr Phillips refused to co-operate or otherwise failed the attitude test then arrest, swabbing and the rest are the obvious consequence.
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>> If it was reported as a 'hate crime' then the police are obliged to take
>> it seriously and investigate - even if their coppers noses tell them it's nothing.
Not really. His supposed crime is in black and white and available in the public domain
It's either against racial hate laws or its not, no arrest and interview will alter that
>>
>>
>>
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O tempora, o mores.
The constables won't turn out to investigate the theft of my neighbour's Land Rover ("no point, we've recorded the crime") but they arrest, fingerprint and swab somebody for making jokes in bad taste.
The lesson here is to be very careful about what you say on the internet, and put nothing on Facetwit, ever.
I wonder if we have the whole story.
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Thought crime is now more important than actual crime.
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>> If it was reported as a 'hate crime' then the police are obliged to take
>> it seriously and investigate - even if their coppers noses tell them it's nothing.
If the mere act of someone reporting something as a "hate crime" results in arrest, interview, swabs and so on, then what happens if a disgruntled citizen who has just been through that process elects to report any policeman, from the local bobby to the Chief Constable, for some sort of "hate crime" every time he makes an announcement, twitters, speaks in public and so forth?
Are the police obliged to take it seriously and investigate, at least once?
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Revenge never left anybody in a better position than beforehand.
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I have not read all this thread ....... but am I the only one who thinks that the press coverage has gone so far over the top as to be irritating in the extreme , particularly the BBC ....
BBC news last night - 10 minutes of BBC 's George Alagiah interviewing BBC's Clive Myrie about Nelson Mandela... Why?
I had Radio 2 on in the car last night --Nelson Mandela
Breakfast News on 1 this morning-- Nelson Mandela
BBC 2 this morning --Nelson Mandela lying in state..
My Telegraph at the weekend had eight pages of coverage and a two full page obituary -- even the sports section had a full spread about Nelson Mandela and winning the Rugby World cup......
Gimme a break please....
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 27 Dec 13 at 00:56
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Revenge is still a dish best served cold, though!
Last edited by: Roger on Wed 11 Dec 13 at 12:33
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Revenge is a dish best not served at all.
As Mapmaker said, it doesn't make things better. And it can make things considerably worse.
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>> Revenge is a dish best not served at all.
Nelson Mandela would probably have agreed with that.
The "served cold" bit is best interpreted as think carefully about it rather than dish it out in the heat of the moment.
Acting aggressively on impulse rarely ends well. Why don't we teach that in schools?
Row over parking space - one dead, one going to prison by the look of it.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-25317133
(now that's thread drift).
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>> Revenge never left anybody in a better position than beforehand.
Never.
But happier tho.
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>> If the mere act of someone reporting something as a "hate crime" results in arrest,
>> interview, swabs and so on, then what happens if a disgruntled citizen who has just
>> been through that process elects to report any policeman, from the local bobby to the
>> Chief Constable, for some sort of "hate crime" every time he makes an announcement, twitters,
>> speaks in public and so forth?
>>
>> Are the police obliged to take it seriously and investigate, at least once?
Yes they probably are so obliged. I suspect however that arrest, swabs etc were a result of failure to realise seriousness of situation.
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Back to the Mandela stuff:
Sign language chappy.....
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25330672
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>> Sign language chappy.....
Heh heh... I'd wager he would be someone's cousin, brother or nephew, imposed in preference to people who actually know d&d sign language apparently on many occasions in the past, despite a steady stream of complaints.
You can tell all that really from his smart clothes and the sulky but bullying expression on his face. Zuma's ANC, so much more modern and with-it than the murdering communist outfit of Mandela's time...
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Nice!.. I'm sure something like this was done as a comedy sketch where the signer was making it up as they went along and putting his own spin on things.
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>>
>> >> Sign language chappy.....
>>
>> Heh heh...
>>
That was my reaction. I love pranksters getting in on big occasions.
I have sometimes wondered just how much real content a sign language translator actually manages to get across. I mean, can an ordinary signer convey accurately a technical discussion say about economics or engineering, or are there specialist translators for every subject?
Is it really true that sign language is international, independent of any particular language?
If so, could say a Mongolian and a Basque converse through the medium of international sign language?
Can sign language be written, perhaps an option in Word?
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Good comment piece by Seumas Milne in today's Guardian. Somebody had to say it and he has done it better than any attempt by myself.
Incidentally, I always understood NM was a socialist and a communist and had no time for any religion at all.
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A lively - goodness how lively - Question Time from Pretoria earlier this evening. I won't go on about it, except to say that I had forgotten how incredibly tiring Africa can be.
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The mind boggles at the cost of this exercise!
BBC Question time from South Africa, why?
Because they can, I reckon.
Having been to a BBCQT recording at Boston, Lincs., I have seen at first hand the number of staff, and the prodigious amount of equipment, set and audience seating which needs to be transported.
Last edited by: Roger on Fri 13 Dec 13 at 09:51
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There is no future for the Boers,the people who still own some farms in South Afrika.They either be killed or kicked off the farms in the future.That will be the same what happened in Rhodesia Mugabe made shore of that he hates the whites.
There is also a massive underclass of whites who live in makeshift camps they got kicked off their jobs when the ANC took over.These people have nowhere to go.
Some Afrikaners are moving to Orania trying to build their own homeland.Of cours Afrika is complexed,the first Dutch who landed there and worked the land over 300 years ago had a rough time.Nothing comes for free it has to be earned.
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>> There is no future for the Boers,the people who still own some farms in South Afrika.
Did you see that Question Time Dutchie? Your man Pik Botha was part of the government that handed over to Mandela's ANC, but he was slow and hesitant (and a bit pompous) in his discourse and was laughed at by the stroppy audience.
However the audience (like the one that booed Zuma in that stadium) was openly hostile to the ANC apparatchik woman, rightly so. She was pretty unspeakable, and of a type I know all too well.
Those who knew SA in pre-apartheid and apartheid times make the point that even under an effectively or overtly racist regime there are still employers who treat their people well and enjoy good relations with them (American southerners make the same point about the US South). I'm sure that still applies today, but as in Kenya years ago it comes under double attack from 'militant' elements and coarse unscrupulous fellow-landowners and can be destroyed.
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I worked in SA for two years and saw Mandela released form prison when I was there.
My view then was that tribalism would eventually destroy SA as it did Zim.
Nothing has happened in the past 20 years to change that view: indeed it has only justified it.
When the Youth Wing of the ANC take control - as they will - expect it to start .
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With due respect madf, 'tribalism' is part of the mix in both countries but very far from being the whole story. Both societies are quite complex socially with different levels of settler/colonist population, mulatto and secondary colonial (Indian, Arab) 'classes', implanted capitalist enterprises with their visiting experts and executives, and so on. The harsh, venal rule and ugly discourse of people like Mugabe shouldn't be allowed to mask all that.
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>> I worked in SA for two years and saw Mandela released form prison when I
>> was there.
>>
>> My view then was that tribalism would eventually destroy SA as it did Zim.
Well you can thank the White Colonialists and their arbitrary lines drawn on the map for that. Not just an African problem either.
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>> you can thank the White Colonialists and their arbitrary lines drawn on the map for that.
Er... Berlin conference, 1884, European imperialist nations (with Prussia the pushy newcomer) carving up the world among themselves. First came explorers, then missionaries, then colonists. The colonists went because they had protection from their mother countries, so to speak.
Of course those lines have caused a lot of trouble. But history is made of trouble. There would have been trouble in any case. The thing that's worrying now is the end of history, this global crap. It's a radical change of scale, very threatening to human beings looks like. But then the world always did look like that. Fingers crossed eh?
God I need a drink...
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>> >> But history is made of
>> trouble.
>>
One interesting little litmus test of received opinion is to look at the changing view we have of the Boers.
In 1900 Britain to support the Boers was to be on the extreme left wing. There were riots at pro-Boer meetings, and someone was killed at one addressed by Lloyd George.
Yet to hold identical views now would put one on the extreme right wing.
I can't think of another example off hand where holding consistent views over time moves someone from one extreme wing to the other, standing still while the world moves, as it were.
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>> Some Afrikaners are moving to Orania trying to build their own homeland.Of cours Afrika is complexed,the first Dutch who landed there and worked the land over 300 years ago had a rough time.Nothing comes for free it has to be earned.
Actually Dutchie at first view I didn't take in the historical depth of what you were saying. It's true that the first Boers to arrive in the Cape found, it is said, only nomad populations there or semi-nomad ones, Hottentots and Bushmen. So the Boers were the first to plough the land and do proper farming there. Later the British came with 18th century progressive ideas of big-scale ranching... but meanwhile the Bantu tribes were driven south in ever-increasing numbers by wars further north. Anyway that is a schematic, Boer-friendly version. In the late fifties the British fascist Oswald Mosley who by then was supporting the early stirrings of apartheid had a bee in his bonnet about the Hottentots and those movements of population. His followers knew the story by heart.
I am guessing that Orania is what we used to call the Orange Free State?
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>> I am guessing that Orania is what we used to call the Orange Free State?
>>
According to Wiki:-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orania,_Northern_Cape
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Thank you Duncan... I was well wrong there.
I hope Dutchie is all right. He usually answers questions promptly. Perhaps he's annoyed by our ignorance. The subject itself may be fraught for him.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25380391
An early start in the morning !
Last edited by: henry k on Sat 14 Dec 13 at 21:21
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Mandela dies - rtj70
