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A police helicopter has crashed through the roof of a pub in Glasgow's Clydeside. Breaking story.
Just across the river from my office, scary.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 2 Dec 13 at 21:21
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some reports on twitter from "experts" suggest it looks like a textbook crash landing - autorotation?
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the report I listened to seemed to indicate it was totally out of control.
Aviation press suggesting it is G-SPAO
If you compare photos of the above and the crash photos it looks like the tail section is on the roof (the logo POLICE on it) and the main rotors are visible in the hole in the roof
(Sky news kept reporting that the TAIL rotors could be seen in the hole.)
"Gordon Smart, editor the Scottish Sun, told the BBC:
I can't really believe what's happened. I was on the phone at the time and I heard a misfiring engine."
(it is fitted with Twin turboshaft engines
Wikipedia has been updated.
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That's the way it seems to me too, completely out of control and falling like a stone. One eyewitness said he'd seen it falling like that, with the rotor 'not turning'. Possibly a radical fault in the helicopter's main gearing, not what you would want at all.
Not many very very serious injuries in the pub it seems. The roof had some integrity and came down 'slowly'. But one doesn't feel that optimistic for the crew. Oddly, no sign of the helicopter's fuselage in any of the clips. Where is it? In the beer garden?
Everyone without exception seemed to expect a fireball. Naturally the risk existed, but they aren't as inevitable as movies and TV make us think.
Police press conference supposed to happen in a few minutes. But it probably won't say much.
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There's been over 3 quids worth of damage.
(Sorry I couldn't resist it - hope everyone's ok)
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>> There's been over 3 quids worth of damage.
>>
>>
Most of which was the helicopter...
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As I understand it this was a twin engined helicopter and a type widely used by police and other services. There must have been a catastrophic mechanical or structural failure to bring it down so quickly.
The AAIB will be all over it pronto; expect a bulletin on subject to appear within next few days.
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>> As I understand it this was a twin engined helicopter
maybe, but its only got one spinny thing on the top.
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With the number of helicopters flying over our major cities what surprises me is how rare such incidents are, tragic as this one was. It won't stop the "It must never happen again" grief junkies from demanding endless enquiries and yet more safety laws however.
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Very clever machines but complicated mechanically and not good to be in when/if things go wrong.
"It is generally reckoned that helicopter accidents are usually caused by three main things - operational error, mechanical malfunction, and electrical malfunction. (Not necessarily in that order of relevance - Meldrew))
The very nature of helicopters means the slightest thing going wrong can lead to a catastrophe.
In contrast, the pilots of a large commercial plane could be faced with any number of problems and be able to still get their plane down safely.
The proliferation of North Sea crashes in recent years emphasises just how hazardous helicopter travel can be, particularly in bad weather.
An international helicopter safety symposium in the USA a few years ago showed that the helicopter accident rate was 7.5 per 100,000 hours of flying, whereas the airplane accident rate was approximately 0.175 per 100,000 flying hours."
Additionally, a fixed wing aircraft crash will probably be more survivable than a helicopter one, even allowing for the larger of number of passengers"
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sat 30 Nov 13 at 10:46
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>> over 3 quids worth of damage.
Counting the helicopter baz? Someone's given you a red face, so I'll soothe you by saying you aren't alone in having the odd bad-taste frivolous thought. On the human chain carrying unconscious people out of the bar for example, one could have described that as pretty normal for late Friday evening in central Glasgow. Very heartless joke given that people have been traumatised, killed and injured.
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We see the police helicopter circling the nearby industrial estate on 2 or 3 evenings a week. I often wonder how much it costs to put the thing up there, and how many criminals it helps catch, and how many convictions result from its efforts. I've a horrible feeling that it could work out to something like £100,000 per slapped wrist.
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The Surrey Chopper used to be based near me (before it got vandalised) and it was over my place 4 or 5 times a week.
Now we just get the electricity pylon and line checking one, and sometimes the Network Rail one.
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You have vandals in Surrey? Gosh.
Graffitti along the lines of "Tarquinius Priscus regnum ok" ?
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It seems to me, from watching the police "Shows" on TV they are quite good at catching people but they are usually motorists who have failed to stop at a checkpoint, or handbag snatchers etc
The problem is that those who are caught get community service orders and what you correctly described as slapped wrists, so not hugely cost effective
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The operational cost of just one helicopter must be enormous. How many coppers could you fund with the money, and I mean coppers out on foot strolling round the streets with their hands behind their back keeping the local yobs honest and getting to know the area and the people in it.
I'd far rather pay for the latter than fund some high tech toy that satisfies the ego of the divisional top plod and I'd bet a regular foot patrol would be far more effective too.
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"It seems to me, from watching the police "Shows" on TV they are quite good at catching people but they are usually motorists who have failed to stop at a checkpoint, or handbag snatchers etc"
I suspect, though, that only the sorties that give an 'interesting' result are selected from many that don't. It has to make 'good television'.
It would be much more satisfactory if the miscreants, when caught, were dangled beneath the machine by the most appropriate part of their anatomy e.g. murderers - neck, thieves - wrist etc…….
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The helicopters, whose avionics my son-in-law looks after, cost forty million quid apiece!
He reckons they are the safest sort of flying machine in which to crash. :-)
Last edited by: Roger on Sat 30 Nov 13 at 12:44
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Safest to crash in-if you are doing it from a reasonable height.
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>> The helicopters, whose avionics my son-in-law looks after, cost forty million quid apiece!
>> He reckons they are the safest sort of flying machine in which to crash. :-)
I suggest he does not say that in the pubs that oil rig workers drink in.. He won't fix much avionics with broken fingers...
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Not too many oil rigs supplied using Apaches!
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All depends what you crash landing into!
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>> He reckons they are the safest sort of flying machine in which to crash. :-)
That statement does, of course, make the assumption that one is going to CRASH and in that situation may well be accurate.
What does he reckon is the safest sort of flying machine in which to FLY? That would interest me a great deal more.
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Long haul I'd say. In a 747 I think they've the best safety record. Tristar was good as well back in the day safety wise. Not likely to get on one of those though, only a few left.
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Looking at the pictures of the scene, that thing came down relatively gently (the pub is a not bomb site and the helicopter is not smashed to bits), which suggests some degree of control in the descent.
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Does anybody else find it strange that the release of information has been so slow. From looking several news sites we have not been made aware of the fate of the occupants of the helicopter.
Ok the H&S culture has limited the access to the building in the search for injured survivors, but if you look at the pictures it appears to be only a single storey flat roof building.
What would happen in a major earthquake or similar?
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>> What would happen in a major earthquake or similar?
I think Helicopters are unaffected by earthquakes.
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>> Does anybody else find it strange that the release of information has been so slow.
A little bit strange, but this is an unusual incident. One assumes everyone alive has been extracted from the wreckage but that there may be several dead under the wreckage and in and under the helicopter's fuselage which has apparently fallen through the roof at one end of the pub.
So we await what the navy in its heyday used to call 'the butcher's bill'. Let's hope it's not too heavy. Let's hope too that the account finally issued won't sound too improbable. Some of the delay may be to do with deciding what yarn to spin about the causes of the crash. I always prefer an account that sounds believable, but a lot of people are quite credulous and official accounts of incidents often seem to rely on that.
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>.Some of the delay may be to do with deciding what yarn to spin about the causes of the crash
In the UK at least, causes of air accidents are not swept under the carpet. I suppose what the police were interested in at the time might be another matter.
It won't be quick. The AAIB won't speculate or jump to a conclusion.
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In a crowded pub though there could be no record of exactly how many people were in the building or who they were, so no-one can be sure how many people are still trapped under the wreckage till the site is virtually cleared.
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And some of them haven't finished their pints yet.
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Doesn't look like Scotland have quite got the hang of this Rotary club thing.
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>> some of them haven't finished their pints yet.
And some never will, poor fellows. Of course in some cases a sudden demise might be a welcome exit from a life of alcoholism, debt and misery. I sometimes think it would for me.
I haven't gathered where Lygonos is based, but I have the impression he knows Glasgow. No doubt he will tell us what he can in the fullness of time.
A helicopter fuselage is by definition an expensively lightweight structure. Many a ska enthusiast should be grateful for that.
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>> no record of exactly how many people were in the building or who they were
The figure of 120 was given several times, but looks likely to be a considerable underestimate. The pub is a music venue and a popular ska band was playing. Only one floor, but a large floor area going back some way from the road.
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>>The figure of 120 was given several times, but looks likely to be a considerable underestimate. <<
probably the declared figure for licensing and insurance issues :)
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>>under the wreckage till the site is virtually cleared.<< But it is only a single storey - probably built of mud and straw:)
Last edited by: sherlock1947 on Sat 30 Nov 13 at 16:32
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<< But it is only a single
>> storey - probably built of mud and straw:)
>>
Would you make that comment if the accident happened in your town and your friends were killed and injured?
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Have to say I'm a bit shocked at some of the comments on here ON.
Pat
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>> Have to say I'm a bit shocked at some of the comments on here ON.
>>
>> Pat
really? I have to say I am appalled by all the usual fake shows of sympathy by all the politicians, "black day for scotland" by Alex Salmond et all.
I wonder why he does not comment about, or show sorrow and remorse for, the 68 yes thats SIXY EIGHT people who were murdered in Scotland last year. 35 of them in the same town as that pub.
Lets get this into perspective a bit shall we.
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Good comments Zero
>> I wonder why he does not comment about, or show sorrow and remorse for, the 68 yes thats SIXY EIGHT
>> people who were murdered in Scotland last year. 35 of them in the same town as that pub.
>>
>> Lets get this into perspective a bit shall we.
>>
To be fair Salmond did mention St Andrews day. Oh of course a vote is coming up :-(
I also noticed the statement about flags at half mast PRIOR to the details of how many lost their lives. Inside information ???
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Probably - Gold Command would be in possession of that sort of information before the hacks would have had it. (terms and conditions apply post-Levison of course)
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>>
>> really? I have to say I am appalled by all the usual fake shows of
>> sympathy by all the politicians, "black day for Scotland" by Alex Salmond et all.
>>
>>
>> I wonder why he does not comment about, or show sorrow and remorse for, the
>> 68 yes thats SIXY EIGHT people who were murdered in Scotland last year. 35 of
>> them in the same town as that pub.
>>
When did politicians start to make statements of sympathy after these sorts of events? It's not new or unique to Wee'Eck is it?
I'd say a PM or similar who didn't get a statement out pronto would be made to look, at the very least, uncaring. Look at the ire directed at the Windsors after the saintly Diana died.
If more than two of those sixty eight had died together in circumstances eliciting national publicity then I bet AS would have had something to say. Same for Cameron or AN Other UK cabinet Minister.
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>> When did politicians start to make statements of sympathy after these sorts of events? It's not new or unique to Wee'Eck is it?
Didn't say it wasn't unusual, its typical of all of them, Just as its typical not to want to be associated with mud that stinks.
>> I'd say a PM or similar who didn't get a statement out pronto would be
>> made to look, at the very least, uncaring. Look at the ire directed at the
>> Windsors after the saintly Diana died.
>>
>> If more than two of those sixty eight had died together in circumstances eliciting national
>> publicity then I bet AS would have had something to say. Same for Cameron or
>> AN Other UK cabinet Minister.
So why does the fact that Glasgow is the murder capital and Scotland the murder country of Western Europe not get any publicity?
merely pointing out that these convenient outpourings of public grief by those in charge is gross hypocrisy
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 1 Dec 13 at 18:46
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>> merely pointing out that these convenient outpourings of public grief by those in charge is gross hypocrisy
Damned if they do and damned if they don't.
'I see those cold-hearted carphounds have completely ignored a terrible tragedy caused by their own penny-pinching in the matter of new and better helicopters for the emergency services... oh, they seem to be saying things now... their thoughts are with the bereaved relations of the victims are they? In a pig's ear, damn hypocrites...'
Who'd be a politician? Much more restful being an honest citizen kibbitzing from the sidelines.
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"Eight people are now confirmed to have died after a police helicopter crashed into a busy pub in Glasgow city centre.
"Three people inside the helicopter and five people inside The Clutha were killed after the Police Scotland aircraft came down at 22:30 on Friday."
From www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25165894
Last edited by: smokie on Sat 30 Nov 13 at 16:44
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>> Eight people are now confirmed to have died after a police helicopter crashed into a busy pub in Glasgow city centre.
My first thought on seeing the crash on late night news was at least 10 dead, perhaps 20. So it could have been worse. But eight is pretty terrible, and there are probably some bad injuries too. Awful incident, 'just one of those things' but awful.
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14 with very serious injuries according to the beeb.
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I regret that the helicopter crew will be among the dead as it is not builtto protect the occupants very well. I think the pub was solidly constructed but where the structure did fail there will have been some nasty crush injuries. We can be grateful that there was no fire.
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>> >> Eight people are now confirmed to have died after a police helicopter crashed into
>> a busy pub in Glasgow city centre.
>>
The number of people who died was obviously higher than " one confirmed" as soon as flags at half mast was announced.
A very sad event.
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>> What does he reckon is the safest sort of flying machine in which to FLY?
>> That would interest me a great deal more.
Safest is a western built airliner operated by a first world airline or one of the bigger Middle Eastern carriers. I'd avoid anything from former USSR and most far eastern carriers. The former for ropey safety and maintenance and the latter for crews where Captain is a deity who must not be challenged.
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"The Safest helicopter in the World"
Paragraph three in 'Design' section.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-92#Development
But the Americans are not going to say that about a foreign helicopter, are they?
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We suffer from a low-flying police helicopter-being halfway between a major road junction and a prison-when the police first got the helicopter we were assured it would only be used to apprehend miscreants-two weeks later it was used to transport senior officers to a site that could have been accessed in less time on "blues & twos".
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I was a passenger on board a commercial helicopter a few years ago, flying between Sweden and Denmark which developed a fault with alarms going off etc. It was quite a tense few minutes to be honest as it turned round and headed for nearest landing. The pilots were cool as cucumbers.
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>> The pilots were cool as cucumbers.
>>
That would worry me. I'd prefer them to join me in blind panic and hysteria.
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Blind panic and hysteria. Absolutely 100% the LAST thing you want on a flight deck or cockpit. Trust me, I used to fly for a living. I am only posing this as I don't see a smiley at the end of your post!
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17993232
Air Ambulance aircraft of the same type were grounded back in 2012 - a scare of rotor hub cracks.
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>> grounded back in 2012 - a scare of rotor hub cracks.
Uh-oh...
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Mentioned on another website is that the pilot dumped fuel before the crash. No idea whether this is possible on an aircraft of this type.
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My wife mentioned dumping fuel this morning - can that be done on a civilian (or any) helicopter? Jets tend to fly around to burn off fuel too.
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In very broad terms dumping fuel is done to reduce weight, preparatory to an emergency landing; the max landing weight can be tons less than the take off weight. Most helicopters can take off and land straight back as they are much smaller and don't even carry that much fuel. I do not think that any small to medium helicopters have the capability to dump fuel.
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>> In very broad terms dumping fuel is done to reduce weight, preparatory to an emergency
>> landing; the max landing weight can be tons less than the take off weight. Most
>> helicopters can take off and land straight back as they are much smaller and don't
>> even carry that much fuel. I do not think that any small to medium helicopters
>> have the capability to dump fuel.
Even a basic small Alouette can dump fuel.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 30 Nov 13 at 19:44
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Helicopters can dump fuel, but not at the same rate as airliners, but then they don't have the airliners amount of fuel.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17993232
>>
>> Air Ambulance aircraft of the same type were grounded back in 2012 - a scare
>> of rotor hub cracks.
Thats nothing of significance really. Commonplace occurrence in the aerospace game, there was no mandatory grounding ordered by the CAA or the FAA, merely amendments to the servicing regime.
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I think whatever happened it was an instant and catastrophic loss of control, the pub hit is located between the river Clyde and two large car parks, (I know the area well). I would think that the pilot had no choice of venue for the landing, and he would know the area well as it is near his base.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 30 Nov 13 at 20:10
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I know that area very well, my old office was a couple of streets away. Strikes me the event was so sudden as to limit options. It's right next to the river for example, and you'd have thought anyway, that the pilot might have tried to get to the water to lessen the impact on the aircraft and the damage/risk to people on the ground. Maybe he was trying to do that of course, which would explain the proximity of the impact to the riverside.
Dreadful occurrence whatever the cause.
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Just a random thought there are no power lines nearby are there? Killers to helicopters, seen the affect of them on an AAC 'copter. Awful, like hitting a brick wall.
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This is a cut & paste from Sky News -
8:57 PM
Twitter
glasgow_taxis
@glasgow_taxis
Anyone with loved ones in hospital from #Clutha & struggling for transport to visit, we'll provide free taxis 01414297070
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The pilot was an ex-RAF Chinook pilot, David Traill
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Just listened to the Broadcasting House podcast.
Matthew Parris reviewing the media coverage of the crash saying "..it's not really a time to be spraying out accusations ...some of the more right wing newspapers are calling the helicopter a Eurocopter because it's of European manufacture...I have not yet seen any serious analysis of what could have gone wrong..."
I didn't expect such stupidity from him.
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Single storey, flat roof pub. Is it possible or likely that the pilot, once he knew the aircraft was struggling, thought that might be a good place to perform an emergency landing? Not many places you can safely land a helicopter in a city centre I'd have thought, a flat roof on a low building might look like a good spot.
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>> Single storey, flat roof pub. Is it possible or likely that the pilot, once he
>> knew the aircraft was struggling, thought that might be a good place to perform an
>> emergency landing? Not many places you can safely land a helicopter in a city centre
>> I'd have thought, a flat roof on a low building might look like a good
>> spot.
Not compared to the river next door it wouldn't. If you have any choice thats your first option.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 2 Dec 13 at 10:17
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Hmm. Can you wind the windows down before hitting the drink?
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>> Hmm. Can you wind the windows down before hitting the drink?
>>
I have flown in similar helicopters frequently, on the ones I used the doors have emergency quick release handles which completely remove the doors (two each side) and it had flotation devices, (air bags).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 2 Dec 13 at 10:29
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>> Hmm. Can you wind the windows down before hitting the drink?
Not its built by Renault, they broke ages ago.
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I would like to think that the pilot WAS trying to get to the river but sadly didn't make it.
I am currently sitting in my office and can see the site from my window and currently have a helicopter hovering as well which I am guessing may be hired by one of the media outlets.
This has been a surreal weekend, from initially seeing the reports on Twitter on Fri night and thinking that it was some sort of sick photoshop type of image, to realizing the enormity of what has happened.
Trying to come to terms with how close it was to my workplace, how it could have been so much worse if it had landed in some areas nearby, whether I would know any of the sick or injured, and at the same time reading comments on here from people who are trying to make jokes of it, turn it into political gamesmanship etc.
But I suppose everyone reacts in different ways, especially if it is in their own backyard. Or not.
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Agreed Bobby. I really don't know whether to be dismayed or disgusted by some of the comments I've read here. Or indeed whether just to decide to ignore them.
I think I'd rather concentrate my thoughts with the affected and their families.
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I seem to remember saying this >>Have to say I'm a bit shocked at some of the comments on here ON.<< when I got up on Sunday morning and read the comments.
I seam to remember I got slated for it and no support from anyone...it's a funny old world, isn't it.
Pat
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>> I seem to remember saying this >>Have to say I'm a bit shocked at some
>> of the comments on here ON.
Whatever the disaster, someone will make light of it and/or invent jokes about it. It doesn't mean they don't care any less than anyone else does about it.
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>> Whatever the disaster, someone will make light of it and/or invent jokes about it. It
>> doesn't mean they don't care any less than anyone else does about it.
>>
Rubbish, it shows a selfish disregard of the feelings of the people involved. Would you make the same comments if your family was involved?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 2 Dec 13 at 13:30
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Not sure I like the comments, might not have made them, but "shocked" by them? Hardly.
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OK, let me clarify this.
I'm well used to black humour being on the road and seeing some accidents where you just know no-one has survived...indeed I have been known to make such comments myself.
For me, there's a fine line between black humour and thoughtlessness, and a point which it could become offensive.
>> but "shocked" by them? Hardly<<
I was shocked that flippant comments were made when we have members on here in Scotland and Bobby who had posted he was quite close to the crash. At that point there were still people missing and the amount of dead wasn't known.
I wouldn't have made any comment at that stage...others would, so be it.
Pat
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Ok, so who's got the balls to own up to giving me a scowly face for that one....and to explain why?
Pat
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>> Ok, so who's got the balls to own up to giving me a scowly face
>> for that one....and to explain why?
>>
>> Pat
Not me but given nobody uses them as they're meant to be I wouldn't bother about it.
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I'm not bromp, just interested to know who hasn't got the ability to debate the point openly, that's all.
Pat
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There the thumbs up outweigh the scowly face !
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>> >> Whatever the disaster, someone will make light of it and/or invent jokes about it.
>> It
>> >> doesn't mean they don't care any less than anyone else does about it.
>> >>
>>
>> Rubbish, it shows a selfish disregard of the feelings of the people involved. Would you
>> make the same comments if your family was involved?
>>
Probably. It wouldn't change anything.
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>> >> >> Whatever the disaster, someone will make light of it and/or invent jokes about
>> it.
>> >> It
>> >> >> doesn't mean they don't care any less than anyone else does about it.
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> Rubbish, it shows a selfish disregard of the feelings of the people involved. Would
>> you
>> >> make the same comments if your family was involved?
>> >>
Probably. It wouldn't change anything. Undoubtably +1
I still do not understand why my dig at Scots/Scotland upset ON - maybe he would like to explain?
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>> I still do not understand why my dig at Scots/Scotland upset ON - maybe he
>> would like to explain?
>>
I was not upset at all, I was astonished at your ignorance. I do not live in a mud hut, have a fresh water supply, electricity, even central heating and wifi broadband. But then I am English. :-)
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>> Rubbish, it shows a selfish disregard of the feelings of the people involved.
Everyone behaves differently. If we didn't then life would be incredibly boring and predictable.
>> Would you make the same comments if your family was involved?
Who knows? Until it happens to them.
However, at my fathers hospital bedside just over 3 years ago while grieving at his imminent death following a brainstem stroke, among crying our hearts out, occasional jokes were still being made by the family to help keep our spirits up.
Whatever the disaster, jokes will be made about it, regardless if life/lives were lost. eg, the Twin Towers, Steve Irwin, the space shuttle disaster, etc. No doubt the Paul Walker ones are already doing the rounds.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 2 Dec 13 at 14:14
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>> Rubbish, it shows a selfish disregard of the feelings of the people involved. Would you
>> make the same comments if your family was involved?
My family is not involved, nor is yours, nor is anyone else's on here so wind you neck in. I don't recall you being overly sympathetic about tragedies anywhere else in the world.
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.
>>
>> Not compared to the river next door it wouldn't. If you have any choice thats
>> your first option.
>>
To be honest, it wouldn't be mine. Cold, dark, fast flowing water coupled with a difficult rescue and possible injuries. I doubt they foresaw the consequences of their decision, right or wrong.
The gear on the helicopter would be designed to mitigate the severity of a crash landing by collapsing, and there's probably further capacity of energy absorption in the seats and fuselage.
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Eye witnesses have said it dropped like a stone, I think he would have gone for the nearby car parks or the river if he had any choice. The fact that the crew did not survive indicates a heavy impact.
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>> I'd have thought, a flat roof on a low building might look like a good spot.
Only if the occupant leaves the landing light on.
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The Beeb has been all over this story, like a rash, for the last 4 days now.
Yes, of course it's news, yes of course it's a tragedy for those affected, but to me the relentless coverage seems akin to motorists slowing down to gawp at an accident in the other carriageway.
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Almost rubber necking by proxy?
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Until a proper investigation is carried out by the AAIB then any comment on the crash is pure speculation .
Most of the so called experts wittering on the television are talking complete rubbish.
If you want some reasonably well informed opinion from people who know read this...
www.pprune.org/rotorheads/528850-police-helicopter-crashes-onto-glasgow-pub-18.html
Finally , making any joke about someone dying in a horrendous way is inappropriate, tasteless and those who made them should know better.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 2 Dec 13 at 14:15
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>> If you want some reasonably well informed opinion from people who know read this...
>>
>> www.pprune.org/rotorheads/528850-police-helicopter-crashes-onto-glasgow-pub-18.html
>>
>> Finally , making any joke about someone dying in a horrendous way is inappropriate,
>> tasteless and those who made them should know better.
There are plenty of posters on pprune.org being told to "shut up, you don't know what you are talking about".
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>> Until a proper investigation is carried out by the AAIB then any comment on the crash is pure speculation .
Not 'pure' speculation, speculation based on what snippets of convincing information there are. Quite frankly I think people here seem as sensible as the prune posters (have to admit though that I only looked at two pages of those). And you are right about some of the witterers on TV, but not really about all of them.
It would be surprising helicopter if you weren't a bit raw about this. These nightmares are more personal for some than for others.
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The Clutha Bar was flat roofed but there are trees next to it; both these aspects would not necessarily be apparent or visible to a helicopter pilot. goo.gl/maps/8RqIf
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Bad accident all my symphaty to people who lost their lives.Nobody knows what is around the corner.
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According to media today there was no mayday call made at all and the helicopter does not have a black box recorder.
I do not believe in any way the pilot looked to bring the helicopter down on that pub. He was an experienced pilot who had patrolled the area for a long time and would have known the area like the back of his hand.
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There is someone up in Glasgow Sheriff court today for posting an abusive tweet on Friday night. There has been various things being retweeted of abusive messages and posts on various forums which obviously attracting a lot of backlash.
I wonder what this site's owners would feel if some links were posted to comments on here (and no , I am not going to do this) - we are not allowed to name & shame etc according to the site rules but is there a viewpoint on the sensitivity of posts , both from the Mods and the sensitivity / commercial viewpoint of the site owners?
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I was one of the heartless jokers, although I tried to do it carefully by indicating that I am not really heartless. This must surely apply to others too as VxFan sensibly points out.
'Gallows humour' in fact is often used to offset fear and distress by (for example) policemen and soldiers. It could even be argued that far from being a sign of callousness, it is really a sign of acute sensitivity.
Does anyone think these jokes would have been made in the presence of victims or bereaved immediately after the crash? Hardly.
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>> There is someone up in Glasgow Sheriff court today for posting an abusive tweet on
>> Friday night.
Thought police in action, eh?
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One wonders if our Jock members would be quite so sensitive about comments if it had happened in London.
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Doesn't it just come down to good manners and civilised behaviour? A degree of respect for those suffering loss of relatives and friends is surely not too much to ask wherever they may live.
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I tend to agree Bobby. But that's me speculating too.
It would imply he didn't have much choice, or any choice at all.
The aircraft had no flight data recorder or cockpit voice recorder. Witness statement is inconclusive - I don't suppose he knew what he was watching until it had happened.
Best bet now must be to examine the wreckage to try and determine what the fault was, assuming there was one, which seems likely - speculation again.
A grim night.
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Lets face it helicopters aren't the safest form of transport.A few Helicopters flying back and forth to the North Sea oil rigs have crashed.Whatever happened in Glasgow the Pilot couldn't have done much if there was a engine failure.
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We may never know what happened for sure unless they identify a fault. I actually thought a helicopter could land safely with engine failure (autorotation) but I assume this requires enough altitude. Maybe helicopter can comment.
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A helicopter pilot on TV said "Altitude is vital if you have a problem, it buys you time".
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>> A helicopter pilot on TV said "Altitude is vital if you have a problem, it buys you time".
That has to be the case. When a helicopter loses engine power, it can glide - fairly steeply I think - provided the rotors are still able to 'freewheel' and the pilot can feather the blades of the main rotor. The pilot can 'flare' the aircraft like a large bird just before landing, so that the landing isn't too heavy. This exploits the inertia of the rotor which is heavy, but which slows down fairly rapidly when required to slow the descent of the aircraft.
That anyway is my understanding, such as it is. What I don't really know is which way and how much the rotor blades have to be feathered by the pilot when the helicopter loses power and starts to fall. It sounds pretty hairy whichever way you look at it, and is obviously hairier if the helicopter is flying high enough to come down hard but not high enough to give the pilot time to catch it after an initial loss of power.
None of that can happen of course if the transmission is severed or seized. It can glide a bit without the tail rotor but the fuselage will start to rotate faster and faster.
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>> We may never know what happened for sure unless they identify a fault. I actually
>> thought a helicopter could land safely with engine failure (autorotation) but I assume this requires
>> enough altitude. Maybe helicopter can comment.
It was twin engined and capable of flying on one. Whether a catastrophic failure of one can take out the other is speculation but it's foreseeable so probably something fairly solid in between to divert shrapnel.
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Late out of bed, Bromp?
I'm not jealous.
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>> We may never know what happened for sure
We will. The AAIB will identify the cause.
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>> >> We may never know what happened for sure
>>
>> We will. The AAIB will identify the cause.
Why should "WE" care deeply about the why?
The techies who built and the techies who maintained it, will need to know, but we don't.
All we need to know is that it happened and its aftermath.
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>>Why should "WE" care deeply about the why?<<
If ''WE'' are one of the bereaved I expect ''WE'' would want to know if it was mechanical or human error.
I makes bereavement easier if there is someone/thing to blame.
Pat
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>>> if there is someone/thing to blame.<<<
'someone to blame' for an 'accident' strikes me as a very uncharitable approach. It was an accident, they happen all the time. Lessons to be learnt maybe? Sympathy for the families and injured - bit late for the nine unfortunates.
Last edited by: sherlock1947 on Mon 2 Dec 13 at 18:16
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>Why should "WE" care deeply about the why?<<
How deeply is deeply? Personally I always take an interest in things of this sort for general knowledge reasons, and because I'm a sort of technophile.
As for 'caring' it's a question of who if anyone you identify with. Again personally, I identify to some extent with helicopter pilots, frontline police officers and cheery jocks guzzling heavy ale and listening to ska music. So I certainly empathise with the pain, fear and suffering of the victims and their families. But there's bound to be a certain distance if you don't know any of them personally.
In a big thing like this with multiple victims, as details emerge some of them pluck at the heartstrings more poignantly than others. It's always like that in the mediasphere though: reports of abused or neglected nippers, or naive well-meaning individuals preyed on by human cockroaches, swindlers and murderers, can move a heart of stone. When we read of a dozen people killed in a stampede in Mali or Saudi Arabia we don't get any detail and it's a long way off.
Close up though, a tragedy is a tragedy. But they happen every day so there's no point in dwelling on how awful they must all be. Just keep hoping it won't happen to you or yours.
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>> >> >> We may never know what happened for sure
>> >>
>> >> We will. The AAIB will identify the cause.
>>
>> Why should "WE" care deeply about the why?
Because it fell on some of US
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>> The aircraft had no flight data recorder or cockpit voice recorder.
Is it possible there might be some video of the form you see in the TV police reality programmes being taken from the chopper by a fixed camera for use as evidence?
Last edited by: Focusless on Mon 2 Dec 13 at 15:23
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From the interviews on TV it was in transit and returning to its base.
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Helicopter crash - Ted
