The attorney General, Dominic Grieve has now apologised for remarks he made about corruption in the Asian community.
He said originally that corruption was endemic and part of a 'favour culture' among Asians, especially those of Pakistani origin. (Why does spellcheck want the American spelling?)
Link to the Beeb:-
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25072685
So, he has withdrawn it the remark. So, why did he say it? Did he think it was true then, but untrue now?
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Simple: he has crumbled under pressure from Conservative Central Office who are terrified of losing the few votes they have from that particular community.
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He should have stuck to his guns given it's true. Keep giving in is a weedy way out.
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I was a small part of a much wider ranging interview in the Telegraph to which the paper gave (undue?) headline prominence. Other than electoral fraud, which is certainly an issue, he didn't give the examples he ought to have done before making such a sweeping assertion.
An uncharacteristic slip from a normally safe pair of hands.
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Postal voting needs to be banned. There was electoral fraud in my neighbouring boro'
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-23494179
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>> Postal voting needs to be banned. There was electoral fraud in my neighbouring boro'
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-23494179
It still has a role for the housebound and others with good reasons to be unable to get to the polling place. The error was to remove the need for proof of such reasons and to allow PV on demand.
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I vote quite often via postal vote, it's quite handy. I think rather than banning it, the rules need tightening up.
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>> I vote quite often via postal vote, it's quite handy.
"quite Handy" is insufficient reason to offer it. It should only be allowed for medically proven house or hospital bound reasons. "I am going on holiday" does not cut it.
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>> >> I vote quite often via postal vote, it's quite handy.
>>
>> "quite Handy" is insufficient reason to offer it. It should only be allowed for medically
>> proven house or hospital bound reasons.
Well without it, I'd have been unable to vote. So I would say it is quite handy.
"I am going on holiday"
Well that's one way to discribe it ;)
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We vote by post here. Why should it be banned because of minority fraud ? Typical punish the majority for the crimes of the minority.
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>> We vote by post here. Why should it be banned because of minority fraud ?
Because it needs to be seen to be 100% above any level of fraud. There is no reason why you have to vote by post, so it shouldn't be offered to you.
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I may not be here on an Election day - has happened here already once this year. Why should I be deprived of my right to vote because I'm holiday or unable to get to the Polling Station ? Or should I have to plan my trips away around elections now ?
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And thats the way it happened in the old days, so in a word. Yes.
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Yes, bring back the Old Days and the issue wouldn't have occurred cos the culprits wouldn't have been here. Well that's cleared that up.
Oh! I forgot to mention I'm off to Pakistan next week to apply for Planning Permission to build a Church. I'll Tweet and let you know how I get on. Wish me luck.
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>> Yes, bring back the Old Days and the issue wouldn't have occurred cos the culprits
>> wouldn't have been here. Well that's cleared that up.
>>
>> Oh! I forgot to mention I'm off to Pakistan next week to apply for Planning
>> Permission to build a Church. I'll Tweet and let you know how I get on.
>> Wish me luck.
If we go back far enough we could kick start gerrymandering again. That should please you as us white folks invented it....
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>> Oh! I forgot to mention I'm off to Pakistan next week to apply for Planning
>> Permission to build a Church. I'll Tweet and let you know how I get on.
>> Wish me luck.
>>
Need some more churches do they? probably got enough already.
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They'll always be people entitled. Under the old system (pre 2001?) who was on the list?
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>> >> We vote by post here. Why should it be banned because of minority fraud ?
>>
>> Because it needs to be seen to be 100% above any level of fraud.
>> There is no reason why you have to vote by post, so it shouldn't be offered to you.
>>
I had a postal vote . Reason ? I was manning a polling station and the rules said I had to be on site all day.
I would favour better checks on reasons but who would do the checks etc.
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>> We vote by post here. Why should it be banned because of minority fraud ?
>> Typical punish the majority for the crimes of the minority.
>>
The same reason that we have speed limits. A minority cannot be trusted to drive at a speed which is appropriate for the conditions.
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I wonder how they manage in other countries with a postal system of voting? I wonder if they have such levels of fraud, or have better security of voting?
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It's interesting that voting used to be completely open, and the votes recorded for public inspection.
I have just been doing some research into some of my family who lived in Westminster in the 18th and early 19th centuries. My ancestor voted for a Mr Murray in the St George's Hanover square division in 1837. He was one of three candidates, but whether Wig, Tory or independent would take a bit more investigation.
Presumably voting was in public by a show of hands. So aside from the fact that there were only about a dozen voters in that ward, the process was entirely democratic.
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>> He should have stuck to his guns given it's true. Keep giving in is a
>> weedy way out.
The Asians are second rate latecomers when it comes to voting fraud. The champions are in Northern Ireland and are white Christians of varying sects.
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I'm sure there are other areas that have fraud issues. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be highlighted or talked about. If other people are upto no good that should be highlighted too.
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Grieve was making the point that corruption is a way of life in some parts of the world and immigrants from those countries bought the habit with them as part of their culture, as indeed you could expect. Naturally he is being shouted down with the usual cries of racism, etc, by those who are deliberately blind to the need to tackle problems openly rather than ignoring them for political reasons.
Driving test fraud is commonly acknowledged by everyone in the industry to be widespread among certain communities, but of course fear of the usual backlash means neither the DSA or any training organisation dare tell it as it is.
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>> I'm sure there are other areas that have fraud issues. But that doesn't mean it
>> shouldn't be highlighted or talked about. If other people are upto no good that should
>> be highlighted too.
No argument with that but there's an unpleasant tinge of racism in MD's posts on the subject.
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>> No argument with that but there's an unpleasant tinge of racism in MD's posts on
>> the subject.
>>
Can't see it myself. Perhaps you're looking too hard?
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I trust then that you enjoy the corrupt ways of these communities Bromps?
Never mind racist. Take a long hard look at the facts. You tell me what percentage of really awful crimes are committed by the ethnic minorities, the nasty break ins with violence to get the car keys. The stabbings and beating of old folk in their own homes unable to say BOO let alone fight back. The muggings. The mugging and theft at cash points and the list goes on and on. You folk that wave the racist flag. Do you live within a street of Pakistanis? Do you live in Hounslow and many other areas where in some streets almost 100% of Garages and sheds at the bottoms of gardens are housing illegal immigrants and workers which the Local Authorities (sic) have done sod all about. How do you get on with some of the eastern Bloc folk then? Some of the nastiest low lifes on earth. FACTS ARE FACTS.
Now to set the record straight. If that makes me a racist then so be it, hard luck. My Indian and West Indian friends and indeed one or two poles are likely to tell another story. Certain groups of immigrants hate other immigrant groups. Do they get censured? Show me an Indian that likes a Pakistani and I'll show you a liar.
You can now go back and stick your head in the sand and enjoy your little world away from reality.
Unpleasant tinge indeed.
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>> I trust then that you enjoy the corrupt ways of these communities Bromps?
>>
>> Never mind racist. Take a long hard look at the facts. You tell me what
>> percentage of really awful crimes are committed by the ethnic minorities,
I don't know, what is the %?
>>
>> You can now go back and stick your head in the sand and enjoy your
>> little world away from reality.
>>
>> Unpleasant tinge indeed.
>>
I don't think it's so much of sticking head in the sand, many of the things you point out are the same in any ethnic group.
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The "Racist" cry has long been used to stifle proper discussion on many issues.
Hopefully it has been so overused that people are beginning to see it for what it is - a political tool.
Example:- A school headteacher threatening to mark as "racist" pupil's records if they did not attend a trip/class on Islam.
Since when has the noun "religion" been synonymous with the noun "race"?
Does, for example, "Christian" = "white"?
Not only an ignorant woman, but now a superficially contrite woman ,who has had to back down after public reaction.
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>> The "Racist" cry has long been used to stifle proper discussion on many issues.
>> Hopefully it has been so overused that people are beginning to see it for what it is - a
>> political tool.
It it is becoming a standard "defence" against accusations of racism to say "oh no, I'm not racist, its just proper discussion."
If one believes that "race" can be used to judge or generalise, then one is being racist. It doesn't matter what conclusion you are drawing, it is the fact that to believe that race is a valid basis.
However you wish to dress it up or maintain its just normal discussion, it is racism.
And racism is disgusting, as are racists.
Also, in my opinion, it completely devalues and discredits anything then said on any subject.
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>> It it is becoming a standard "defence" against accusations of racism to say "oh no,
>> I'm not racist, its just proper discussion."
>>
>> If one believes that "race" can be used to judge or generalise, then one is
>> being racist. It doesn't matter what conclusion you are drawing, it is the fact that
>> to believe that race is a valid basis.
>>
>> However you wish to dress it up or maintain its just normal discussion, it is
>> racism.
>>
>> And racism is disgusting, as are racists.
>>
>> Also, in my opinion, it completely devalues and discredits anything then said on any subject.
>>
Interesting theory, but that's it, theory.
If a race of people/religious followers/language speakers/certain types of people/whatever... are historically more likely involved in whatever issue we were to discuss...
....then you'd naturally think that and bear that in mind in the context of the discussion.
If you are intelligent and have an open mind, you'd easily realise that not all those from that group involve themselves in that activity..and in fact it might well be a significant minority.
However, neither would you purge all thoughts from your brain and start your thought processes completely from scratch in case someone else thinks negatively of you for being racist.
There are of course racist people out there..as there are those who wilfully stifle any debate by bandying the racist accusations.
We need to be somewhere in the middle, as ever.
Over my 31 year policing career, I noticed the following:
- An inordinate amount of Chinese people who gamble
- Ditto Nigerians who commit fraud
- Ditto Travellers who pinch things
- Football thugs were white
- Violent street muggings in cities had a lot of black representation
- Indian ladies have a high number of crap drivers
Should I ignore the above? Pretend it doesn't happen? Or keep it in context and understand they are likely to be in the minority and we only notice the bad ones.
However they DO exist.
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There is no grey area, to judge people by their race *is* racist. That is the very definition of the word.
Whether you regard racism as a bad thing or not is another matter.
I do.
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>> There is no grey area, to judge people by their race *is* racist. That is
>> the very definition of the word.
>>
>> Whether you regard racism as a bad thing or not is another matter.
>>
>> I do.
>>
How about 'the Finns are good at rallying' then?
Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 24 Nov 13 at 19:48
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>> >> There is no grey area, to judge people by their race *is* racist. That
>> is
>> >> the very definition of the word.
>> >>
>> >> Whether you regard racism as a bad thing or not is another matter.
>> >>
>> >> I do.
>> >>
>>
>> How about 'the Finns are good at rallying' then?
>>
By your definition, every person is racist and it's all bad.
Like most things in life, there's varying degrees, some bad, some middle of the road and some not bad.
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Yes - I'm a racist because I took umbrage when a dozen or so caravans appeared on common land near us. I ought to be more tolerant of open-air defaecation, the dumping of piles of rubbish and the disappearance of tools from garden sheds.
I also understand that some people who own caravans are quite civilised.
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I don't think choice of dwelling is related to race.
And the behaviour of people who live as you describe is appalling. But again, that is not related to race.
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"I don't think choice of dwelling is related to race."
So why do these particular caravan dwellers cry "racists" when people object to their presence?
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TBH, I don't think they do, they just punch you.
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"TBH, I don't think they do, they just punch you."
That depends ……….. if the police or press are around, they cry "racist".
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>>So why do these particular caravan dwellers cry "racists" when people object to their presence?
Because its stops the liberals hounding them into a decent standard of behaviour.
Don't get me wrong, I'd hound them until they changed because they wanted to or changed because they were afraid not to.
But it'd be because of their behaviour, not their race. What ever level of correlation between the two existed or didn't.
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>> But it'd be because of their behaviour, not their race. What ever level of correlation
>> between the two existed or didn't.
I think the point is that a lot of people would get their retaliation in first, by preventing them siting, without waiting for them to take up residence and bad behaviour to start. And that would be a good strategy, based on experience.
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>>And that would be a good strategy, based on experience.
It shouldn't be necessary. A society should have the balls to deal with those who step outside the rules so quickly and adequately, that the pre-emption was unnecessary.
The UK does not currently have those balls, or that conviction. One of the two.
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>>It shouldn't be necessary.
You're right about that.
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>>How about 'the Finns are good at rallying' then?
A dumb, meaningless and racist comment. Albeit not in real terms particularly insulting to me, but it might bother the Finns for all I know.
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>> A dumb, meaningless and racist comment.
Well. It isn't so dumb and meaningless, because for the size of the country and the population size, they do have a disproportionately high number of quality drivers in all forms of Motorsport, inc the one I mentioned, rallying.
As for racist...does it fit the following: (taken from the Oxford English dictionary) and do you really think that I think all people's of the Finnish nation can all drive well at rally standard?
noun
[mass noun]
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:
theories of racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:
a programme to combat racism
>> Albeit not in real terms particularly insulting to me,
So not 'particularly' insulting to you??? It's not insulting to anyone. It was a compliment, to the Finns.
>> but it might bother the Finns for all I know.
How?
'Racism', has in reality evolved into the negative connotation of the word and fair enough. Trouble is it is too readily thrown about and is often used to temper proper debate.
Your usage of it is frankly ridiculous and goes against the natural human way. We all see traits in others and pick up nuances and subtleties. It's how we form opinion and learn. What is wrong is if you are bigoted and think you are better than someone else or they inferior, just because of race.
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>> So not 'particularly' insulting to you??? It's not insulting to anyone. It was a compliment,
>> to the Finns.
No, it was not a compliment. It was a race driven generalization which may offend or compliment the individual. e.g. I know a particular Irish person who vehemently objects to and is offended by any assumption that he likes Guinness simply because he is Irish. But I bet you can't see any harm in that assumption.
The fact that *I* was not offended by the Finn/Rally is not relevant. It is wrong to make a race based assumption.
>>Your usage of it is frankly ridiculous and goes against the natural human way.
Really? I don't see how.
I do not make assumptions driven by race. And I have lived and worked all over the world. I haven't just seen foreigner people in England, I have seen every combination of foreign and local you can think of.
I can see that you feel your views are just and you feel that you use them honestly. But you are legitimizing the views of people who do not apply your standards.
It is as wrong to think someone is decent by virtue of their race as it is to think they are worthless.
Racism is the act of using race as a metric by which to judge or value one or more people.
Until my dying day I will believe that to be wrong and believe that it comments negatively upon the people who do it.
I see no reason to comment further since I would simply be repeating myself.
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>> I do not make assumptions driven by race.
That would make you a very unusual person indeed, as I do not know you, I'll keep an open mind.
>> But you are legitimizing the views of people who do not apply
>> your standards.
That is a presumption too far. If other people have more extreme views than me and they are wrong for it, so be it...but that doesn't mean I should not hold those views if mine are reasonable.
>>
>> It is as wrong to think someone is decent by virtue of their race as
>> it is to think they are worthless.
Can't disagree with that. Keep an open mind and find out for yourself.
>>
>> Racism is the act of using race as a metric by which to judge or
>> value one or more people.
In it's truest form..yes, but it has morphed into the negative connotation being the important one...and what I am saying is the negative form is wrong..and the other is not.
>>
>> Until my dying day I will believe that to be wrong and believe that it
>> comments negatively upon the people who do it.
You are perfectly entitled to think that..however it doesn't necessarily make you right.
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And I said I wouldn't comment, dammit, but this is defintiely the last.
>>>> I do not make assumptions driven by race.
>>That would make you a very unusual person indeed, as I do not know you, I'll keep an open mind.
Unusual or not, its true. And there are people here who know me who are welcome to shout if they disagree.
>> what I am saying is the negative form is wrong..and the other is not.
I entirely get your point. The problem is that what is negative from your point of view may or may not be from someone else's.
For example, my Irish mate. It is difficult to understand why one may get offended because others take your Irishness to assume you like Guinness. But he really gets upset about it and seems, insofar as I can tell, genuinely offended by it.
My Grandfather (An Ammanford Miner) thought Max Boyce was racist and hated him for it, and assuming otherwise could get you into a pub fight.
These are not things that would offend me, but that is not really the point.
I am sure that you are well aware of the dangers of subjective judgments; The "Suss" laws spring to mind. Just because you are comfortable you are using it as a power for good, does not mean that all, or indeed many, are doing the same.
>> it doesn't necessarily make you right
Nothing does. That's why I try so hard myself.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 3 Dec 13 at 12:49
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>> >> what I am saying is the negative form is wrong..and the other is not.
>>
>> I entirely get your point. The problem is that what is negative from your point
>> of view may or may not be from someone else's.
Yes, there can be variation...but most decent people can get to a sensible norm.
>> I am sure that you are well aware of the dangers of subjective judgments; The
>> "Suss" laws spring to mind. Just because you are comfortable you are using it as
>> a power for good, does not mean that all, or indeed many, are doing the
>> same.
That highlights nicely the awkward problem that subjectivity causes...however, it is often still needed...and is a natural human trait. If you recognise it and deal accordingly you are half way there. Ignoring it is not an option.
A good example for me was, early 90's in charge of an office (for the police) on a North London Borough, for arranging the duties and shifts of police officers.
I went to a senior management briefing on why that Boroughs stop/search figures were skewed i.e. why did we stop so many young black men, when the demographics suggested it should be white people first, then indian, with black people being a very low percentage.
Two days later I went to a meeting, same senior manager, to find out we were creating a new squad to combat our street crime figures (muggings). I was instructed to go to all the intel briefings on it, so I could match the right people with the role and ensure I had a full understanding of the issues. The intel (taken from the descriptions given by victims) was that the vast majority of suspects for the muggings were young black men/boys (coming up from Harlesden and Kilburn on public transport, relieving the local kids of their i-pods and smart phones and going back from whence they came from).
Guess which group of people were targeted for stop/search?...and there was an interesting conversation with the Chief Supt about our stop/search figures.
You cannot allow yourself to ignore reality...however unpalatable it might seem.
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>> There is no grey area, to judge people by their race *is* racist. That is
>> the very definition of the word.
>>
>> Whether you regard racism as a bad thing or not is another matter.
>>
>> I do.
>>
Absolute baloney.
Your definition, given above, is both narrow, intolerant and wrong.
You are so blinkered on this particular subject you do not realise how wrong you are.
Blind prejudice indeed!
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>Your definition, given above, is both narrow, intolerant and wrong.
My definition is that using race to value or judge a group of people is racist.
If that is narrow, intolerant and wrong, what would your definition be?
Come on, help me improve my understanding.
Can you?
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>
>> - An inordinate amount of Chinese people who gamble
>> - Ditto Nigerians who commit fraud
>> - Ditto Travellers who pinch things
>> - Football thugs were white
>> - Violent street muggings in cities had a lot of black representation
>> - Indian ladies have a high number of crap drivers
Yeah, but you don't brand all of them by the actions of a few of them. Those within any racial group who are criminally minded, commit the crime they are best equipped to perform. Most (internal) accounting and banking fraud is by white anglo saxons, Does not mean they are all criminally minded.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 24 Nov 13 at 18:08
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>> Yeah, but you don't brand all of them by the actions of a few of
>> them. Those within any racial group who are criminally minded, commit the crime they are
>> best equipped to perform. Most (internal) accounting and banking fraud is by white anglo saxons,
>> Does not mean they are all criminally minded.
>>
I wholeheartedly agree.
My point is, neither do you disallow any discussion on the subject, labelling people racist for even raising it.
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>> Over my 31 year policing career, I noticed the following:
>>
>> - An inordinate amount of Chinese people who gamble
>> - Ditto Nigerians who commit fraud
>> Should I ignore the above? Pretend it doesn't happen? Or keep it in context and
>> understand they are likely to be in the minority and we only notice the bad
>> ones.
>>
>> However they DO exist.
Some of those bullets are well proven - to a point.
Certain fraud groups and categories of fraud are run by Nigerians; siphoning off western money as an easy target. Reasonable to pitch police operations appropriately
The jump is to say, as one of my ex bosses did, that he'd mitigate that risk by not employing directly or via an agency anyone with a West African sounding name.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 24 Nov 13 at 22:07
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>> The jump is to say, as one of my ex bosses did, that he'd mitigate
>> that risk by not employing directly or via an agency anyone with a West African
>> sounding name.
>>
As ever, it's being 'reasonable in the middle' that we should be aiming for.
Out and out racism or the complete closing down of debate for fear of being labelled racist are both very wrong.
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"Out and out racism or the complete closing down of debate for fear of being labelled racist are both very wrong."
I recall a friend of my mate saying nearly 40 years ago, in his very strong Black-Country accent, "arr - I used to think blacks w'r alright 'til they made 'em compulsory".
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>> The "Racist" cry has long been used to stifle proper discussion on many issues.
>> Hopefully it has been so overused that people are beginning to see it for what
>> it is - a political tool.
>> Example:- A school headteacher threatening to mark as "racist" pupil's records if they did not
>> attend a trip/class on Islam.
>> Since when has the noun "religion" been synonymous with the noun "race"?
>> Does, for example, "Christian" = "white"?
>> Not only an ignorant woman, but now a superficially contrite woman ,who has had to
>> back down after public reaction.
It's like Elf'n'Safety. Some people with to much power and/or lack of knowledge or sense are either fearful or overbearing. If a visit to a mosque is part of understanding others cultures, and the practitioners of the culture are overwhelmingly of a different race then certainly racism might be a motive for parents tying to pull their kids out. Equally there might be other goodreasons and overuse of the 'racist' tar-brush is stupid and counter-productive.
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>> I trust then that you enjoy the corrupt ways of these communities Bromps?
>>
>> Never mind racist. Take a long hard look at the facts. You tell me what
>> percentage of really awful crimes are committed by the ethnic minorities, the nasty break ins
>> with violence to get the car keys.
I would have thought that across the piece the crimes you mention are distributed broadly in proportion to society as a whole. The thugs round here are nearly all white.
The rest I assume is irony. Too near a stereotypical racist rant to be real. Even a reference to West Indian & Polish friends to complete the picture.
I'll ask my friend who lives in Brentford about the illegals sheltering in garages in his neighbouring borough of Hounslow. I suspect in so far as they exist (and yes there are a few) they're around because sub-sub contractors in the building etc. trade give them illegal work for cash in hand.
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>> Never mind racist. Take a long hard look at the facts. You tell me what
>> percentage of really awful crimes are committed by the ethnic minorities,
>>the nasty break ins
>> with violence to get the car keys. The stabbings and beating of old folk in
>> their own homes unable to say BOO let alone fight back. The muggings. The mugging
>> and theft at cash points and the list goes on and on.
About the same proportion as there are immigrants. The white boys are keeping their end up there don't you worry
>>You folk that
>> wave the racist flag. Do you live within a street of Pakistanis? Do you live
>> in Hounslow and many other areas where in some streets almost 100% of Garages and
>> sheds at the bottoms of gardens are housing illegal immigrants and workers which the Local
>> Authorities (sic) have done sod all about. How do you get on with some of
>> the eastern Bloc folk then? Some of the nastiest low lifes on earth. FACTS ARE
>> FACTS.
The next boro to mine, where the population is about 50% ethnic, and where Mrs Z visits many households safely doing her job, where the first Mosque in the UK was built, over a Hundred Years ago, is not like that.
>> Now to set the record straight. If that makes me a racist then so be
>> it, hard luck. My Indian and West Indian friends and indeed one or two poles
>> are likely to tell another story. Certain groups of immigrants hate other immigrant groups. Do
>> they get censured? Show me an Indian that likes a Pakistani and I'll show you
>> a liar.
>>
>> You can now go back and stick your head in the sand and enjoy your
>> little world away from reality.
>>
>> Unpleasant tinge indeed.
Yes you are extremely unpleasant
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Postal voting, as it is currently, is wide open to abuse.
It is too draconian to ban it entirely, but I think that it needs to be restricted to those who through medical incapacity, are physically unable to make the trip to a polling station.
This should be determined by a medical certificate from their doctor/consultant.
Members of the Armed Forces who for operational reasons are away from home should also qualify.
Arguments about being "denied the right to vote" for other reasons do not hack it, in my opinion.
The polling stations are open for long enough on election day, (7am to 10pm) for almost anyone who really wants to vote to make it through the door.
People who are on holiday at polling time have made their choice.
People who work have made a choice to work on the day. (Probably a hard choice, I agree).
Prison inmates have also, indirectly, made a choice, too!
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>> but I think that it needs to be restricted to those who through medical incapacity, are physically unable to make the trip to a polling station
>>People who work have made a choice to work on the day. (Probably a hard choice, I agree)
>>.
I cannot agree.
IMO a vast over simplification and not thought through.
There are a vast number of people who cannot attend on polling day even if they plan ahead.
All polling station staff could not vote.
Many airline staff could not vote.
Oil industry workers on rigs etc etc.
The list of people is big.
I agree that a tighter control is required.
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There is also a vast number who cannot get off their asses to vote!
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I'm with henry and RP on this one.
I use the postal vote system and fail to see why I should be inconvenienced just because a minority commit fraud.
Put some resources into weeding out the crooks....(and 'yes' I am prepared for it to have a cost implication).
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I disagree, Westpig
Basically you are saying that voting in person is "inconvenient"?
Come on. :-(
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Roger, have you thought about the huge amount of lorry drivers in this country who live in their cabs all week, in whatever part of the country the job takes them?
Without a postal vote, neither myself or most of them, would have ever been able to vote.
Pat
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>> I disagree, Westpig
>> Basically you are saying that voting in person is "inconvenient"?
>> Come on. :-(
What I am saying is, it's important to vote, we all should do it and I find it far more convenient to postal vote that turn up in person.
Same principle as having my shopping delivered rather than going to the supermarket.
...and I don't see why I should have that privilege withdrawn, because some abuse it. Deal with the abusers.
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This has just been the first presidential election in Chile that was not compulsory.
Until now it was an extremely serious thing not to vote. Because of that all; business were closed on the day and one needed to previously obtain special dispensation not to vote. Postal voting is/was possible.
In this first voluntary election turn out was about 40% and the result inconclusive requiring a second run in December.
It would appear that comparatively it is the younger who did not vote, rather than the older and less able.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 24 Nov 13 at 12:40
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Is the statement true or not?
>>Driving test fraud is commonly acknowledged by everyone in the industry to be widespread
I was told in Malaya (as was) about the "black coffee licence" scheme which worked like this; you paid the driving school a fee and it paid some of it over to the tester. Then, on the day of the test, regardless of what you did (so long as you did not run down a policeman, which would in any case be very discourteous) you got your "lisen kopi-o".
Suspicion of this practice is why I had to take a new test on repatriation to the UK.
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How many people don't vote during a election? The powers in charge do they represent us.
The whole system is corrupt.
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"The powers in charge do they represent us."
We can only assume that the powers in charge have a mandate from a majority of those who took the trouble to vote, and that those who didn't vote dont' care which powers are in charge.
I think it reasonable to suggest those who don't bother to vote have no right to complain when the powers that be don't act as they would wish.
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>>
>> I think it reasonable to suggest those who don't bother to vote have no right
>> to complain when the powers that be don't act as they would wish.
>>
Of course non-voters have the right to complain. Just because they haven't been excited enough by what the standing parties have to offer and stayed at home doesn't negate those rights. We're all taxpayers whether we vote or not, even those who don't work or earn below the threshold contribute to the Exchequer when they buy something in a shop.
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Dominic Grieve was reported late last night on Sky News as saying that corruption was endemic in the Pakistani community. Actually what he said was that some Asians came from cultures in which corruption was endemic. There is a distinct difference.
Tsk! Some media suffer from endemic inaccuracy.
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There is/has been endemic corruption in (Southern) Spain for sure!
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Coming back to postal votes. At the May CC elections, in the ward I contested, there was in the region of 17% to 18% of electors who had registered to vote by post.
This was repeated pretty much over all nine seats in our parliamentary constituency, with some being a touch higher.
Bear in mind that our particular area has very few Asian immigrants, (quite a few Poles, though!), what does this say about the indolent nature of many, for want of a better word, "native" voters?
Surely there is not circa 17/18% of medically unfit/holidaying/ at work, voters in the ward?
No, many - including whole families at the same address - are just too idle to take a trip to the polling station on the day.
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I wonder if they would vote still if there was no postal vote? I wonder if we'd end up throwing the baby out with the bath water if it were too be more restricted. I suppose you could say if they were that bothered they would make the effort, however a vote is a vote surely more votes being cast is a good thing?
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Fair comment, I guess.
It is a knotty problem, but seasoned campaigners reckon that postal voters pretty much fill in their voting slips the day they get them and return them promptly.
On short notice by-elections this give little time for opinions to be changed by campaigning - in fact the LibDems used the short notice tactic in the Eastleigh by-election.
Campaigning did change quite a few voters minds in that instance. Given a few days more electioneering it is very possible that Diane James would have taken that seat - she was certainly leading on the actual polling day's votes, but was scuppered by the postal votes piling in.
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>> On short notice by-elections this give little time for opinions to be changed by campaigning
>> - in fact the LibDems used the short notice tactic in the Eastleigh by-election.
>> Campaigning did change quite a few voters minds in that instance. Given a few days
>> more electioneering it is very possible that Diane James would have taken that seat -
>> she was certainly leading on the actual polling day's votes, but was scuppered by the
>> postal votes piling in.
>>
>>
That's a factor, but not something I'd factor in, in whether or not there should be postal voting.
They know doubt fill them knowing they won't/ might not be around on the day.
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"It is a knotty problem, but seasoned campaigners reckon that postal voters pretty much fill in their voting slips the day they get them and return them promptly.
On short notice by-elections this give little time for opinions to be changed by campaigning "
This has happened to me!
I request a postal vote (though I have grave concerns over the system) because I act as Presiding Officer at a local rural polling station. My mind was made up that the roles of PCC should NOT be subject to politics, so for that election I put a cross by the 'Independent' candidate and posted it back straightaway. A couple of days later, but well before the election, I discovered that the chap had been one of the chief figures involved in the appointment of useless European doctors to act as locum GPs. I spent the next couple of weeks explaining to friends my great regret at not spoiling my paper.
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>> what does this say about the indolent nature of many, for want of
>> a better word, "native" voters?
What an intolerant way of looking at things.
There's a system in place that allows you to vote by post...so I do. It's more efficient and suits me. Why shouldn't I avail myself of that system?
If you think that wrong, bully for you, but that doesn't necessarily make me indolent.
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It seems that all you need to do is tick a box on the voter registration form asking for a postal vote. Would be convenient for the offspring who are both at Uni in term time.
OTOH last time I used a PV it involved a fair bit of hoop jumping in terms of getting the voting envelope witnessed. Given that Polling Place is 50yds away at end of road the indolent route is to vote in person!!
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You're right Bromp. Same here - just sometimes it's impossible to get there for various reasons....the last one was that we were in California when the local Council elections were on. In this County where democracy has not yet made it into the back seat, every vote counts.
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What about on-line voting? It's considered secure enough for internet banking, so why not for voting?
a) Register with national voting authority. Select username and memorable words, etc.
b) Receive form in the post. Return form together with the usual 2 forms of ID - original passport, driving licence, utility bill, etc
c) Receive username plus PIN in separate envelopes.
d) Log in with one-time password, change to desired password.
e) When an election looms, log in and cast vote. If you tried to vote in the wrong constituency it would bar you, because your original verified address would not match.
Would that be more secure than postal voting?
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>> Would that be more secure than postal voting?
>>
No, because it's still susceptible to false identities and to coercion of correctly registered individuals. The latter in particular is where the finger is, in part correctly, pointed at certain racial/cultural groups.
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Used to know a man who had been (before my time there) a British colonial official in Nigeria, deputy district commissioner or some such, responsible among other things, he told me proudly, for burning large quantities of confiscated cannabis. He also complained that Nigerian corruption was beginning to infect British people.
I couldn't believe my ears. 'Are you suggesting,' I asked, 'that we British have never managed a bit of corruption of our own? Surely, er... I know we're a bit slow in the uptake sometimes, but honestly... '
He didn't really have an answer of course. Prat.
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Got me thinking about the BBC and the corruption what has gone on.How much taxpayers money has been wasted and gone to the fatcats.The cover up of the Jimmy Saville case and pretending they didn't know what went on.Why should we pay a licence fee for a organisation which lost its way years ago.
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>> Got me thinking about the BBC and the corruption what has gone on.How much taxpayers
>> money has been wasted and gone to the fatcats.The cover up of the Jimmy Saville
>> case and pretending they didn't know what went on.Why should we pay a licence fee
>> for a organisation which lost its way years ago.
That's not the BBC, that's life.
As for the ludicrous payments for redundancy and failure, nothing there that doesn't apply to local authorities and the NHS.
It also applies in the private sector, which some people seem to think is OK but we all pay for it just the same.
The establishment - now about networks, money and influence rather than class - looks after its own, whether its non-exec jobs in quoted businesses or LA chief execs collecting big pay-offs and moving on to the next similar job - why would they not want it to continue?
Unfortunately, it seems most people want the licence fee to be abolished. I certainly don't. It's a bargain at £12 a month.
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For all its perceived faults, I don't think any public funded broadcaster anywhere in the world has output anywhere as good as the BBC.
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Amen to that. Nothing is perfect, but...
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FMR and Westpig are going on and on.
This is because one includes considerations of social class and 'subculture' in the general concept of 'race', and the other doesn't. One is practical, hands-on and no-nonsense, the other intellectual and anxious not to be misunderstood.
Without the presence of accepted common ground these arguments quickly turn repetitive and sterile.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 24 Nov 13 at 23:26
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>> these arguments quickly turn repetitive and sterile.
Why read something just so that you can write that you don't want to? Did you learn this approach from Mary Whitehouse?
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I didn't read it, just skimmed a bit of it and noticed its bloated volume. And I didn't write that I didn't want to read it. I made a specific comment about it.
Don't get shirty FMR FFS. It's entirely inappropriate, and tiresome too.
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I thought the rationale for a multicultural society was that we should all be aware of racial and cultural differences, and embrace the resulting diversity. That we are sensitive to different cultures and values, and appreciate that these may differ. That we monitor the representation of different races in different occupations, access to education and housing, and take steps to intervene to promote those less-well represented groups.
What would you call the process of monitoring an individual's degree of inclusion in society by reference to his racial background, if not "racism"?
If I am asked to tick a box to define what race I consider myself to be, is that not racism?
If authority is blind to race, why does it need to know?
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"FMR and Westpig are going on and on. "
When faced with the kind of religious dogma that cannot see that there is no difference between god and Santa Claus, then even Richard Dawkins has to give up in the end. NoFM2R has tied himself in knots.
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"www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2013/11/why-shouldnt-you-be-required-to-prove-your-identity-when-voting.html"
Our voting system used to work when traditional British value were the norm but, alas, something has changed………..
After reading the link
guythemac.com/2010/05/27/does-birmingham-need-to-call-in-independent-election-observers/
I'm glad that I help to man a polling station in rural Suffolk; it's an entirely different job in an inner city area and not one that I would relish.
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My wife votes in the General Election she is British Born.I am not allowed to vote I still have a Dutch passport.If I walk into a polling station to vote in a G/Election I wouldn't get away with it in our village they would check.
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"in our village they would check."
There are complications when several elections are running at the same time, but who is allowed to vote in which election is defined on the register of electors which is checked for everyone who comes in.
I can imagine that the difficulties arise with very large numbers of voters in busy stations. It only takes a few seconds to deal with a straightforward voter, but anything away from the 'norm' can take much longer.
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>> There are complications when several elections are running at the same time,
>> but who is allowed to vote in which election is defined on the register of electors which is
>> checked for everyone who comes in.
>>
Last time I was a polling clerk, we had, IIRC four different categories to check.
One was for the village council and had 13 names on it. This caused a significant slowing of throughput.
"You can vote for none or any number of candidates up to 10 votes! "
"Now what do you not understand ?"
" But I do not know any of them!"
"Can I give you my voting form back ?"
"No you cannot but you could listen to instruction one and just pop it in the box, there's a good fellow" " Now fibble ORF"
Maybe proves that if you live in a very prosperous area you can still be thick thick thick!
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"But I do not know any of them!"
A couple of years ago, as well as a simple council ballot, we held an 11-candidate Euro election, and one of the electors was heard to grumble "It comes to something when the only bl…….. name you recognise is Arthur Scargill!".
I wanted to weep with him, but you know, Henry, that professionalism has to be maintained at all times!
At that election, I think I voted for a party who's main thrust was banning animals from circuses, or something like that.
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I'm impressed they got 3 surveys done in N Korea asking about government corruption. Such honesty as well.
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>> Our voting system used to work when traditional British value were the norm but, alas,
>> something has changed………..
I wondered when this would come up. Have we forgotten about Rotten Boroughs and votes only for the wealthy? Those are some pretty traditional British values right there. The modern franchise is exactly that - modern. Nothing traditional or uniquely British about it.
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" wondered when this would come up. "
Yes - I thought about the phrase - but decided to leave it like that to see if the 'determined to be offended' brigade were paying attention!
They were :-)
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I'm not offended. Just pointing out an obvious inaccuracy.
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Traditional British values were invented in 1920, and abolished in about 1960.
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1917 maybe, when the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha was renamed Windsor. A cadet branch of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (Phil the Germano-Greco's lot). Traditionally, our esteemed monarchy is of immigrant stock. Bit of a quandary if UKIP ever get to form a Government:)
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They are all from German background.The most powerfull families in the world are The Rothchilds The Warburgs The lehmans to name a few.Oueen Wilhelmina was one of the richest women in the world.
Queen Beatrix use to share the Bilderberg Meetings regulary,started by Prince Bernard.All useless information.>:)
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Corruption Endemic in Asian Community? - Roger.
