| Non-motoring > Trip to France | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: MJW1994 | Replies: 31 |
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New Tue 12 Nov 13 20:29
Trip to France - MJW1994
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Hi all, I was wondering if anyone has been to Oradour Sur Glane near Limoges in France. My uncle has been and said it was a great visit, if depressing. My brother who is 16 is seriously interested in military history, almost an obsession in fact, and I was thinking of taking him there at the end of his school term as his Christmas present. You can fly to Limoges from Bristol which would be very convenient and we can hopefully find somewhere nearby to stay. I thought if I took some pictures of him at the place then he could have one framed as a present to open on Christmas day, as a memory of the trip. He mentioned this place about a year ago but we never progressed matters at that time. I haven’t checked whether they are open in December, can’t see why not. Has anyone been there? |
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New Tue 12 Nov 13 21:04
Trip to France - Armel Coussine
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Mike Hannon lives near there. But that was just a WW2 Nazi atrocity. Read up on the French Revolution and the 1871 Paris Commune, and do a bit of walking around Paris itself eyeing the numerous sites. The Commune was put down with great savagery, with around 70,000 communards shot out of hand and in the fighting when the bourgeoisie retook Paris using the army recently humiliated by the Prussians. 1879 and 1848 were bloody too. The French go potty and massacre each other from time to time. Don't forget a visit to Versailles, one of the world's man-made wonders if your eyes can stand all the gilding. Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 3 Dec 13 at 12:58
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New Tue 12 Nov 13 21:08
Trip to France - PhilW
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Yes, been once (to be honest that's enough) on a hot Summer's day. It's a very sobering experience. When we went, there were a lot of people there of all nationalities including German but almost complete silence with people, even young children, speaking in whispers or just being silent and looking at the various scenes. Many of the houses are completely burnt out with just metal things remaining - sewing machines, bedsteads, bicycles etc. The village doctor's car (Renault) still remains. There is a good website about the village www.oradour.info/ which will tell you what to expect. And for a book to read before going, I cannot recommend highly enough Das Reich by Max Hastings www.amazon.co.uk/Das-Reich-Division-Military-Classics/dp/0330509985/ref=sr_1_1/278-0779585-4393104?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384289395&sr=1-1&keywords=das+reich+max+hastings which gives the story of the movement of this Das Reich Division moving from S of France towards Normandy at the time of the D-Day landings. The various resistance actions delayed them sufficiently so that they arrived very late. The book also tells of various other atrocities committed on the way , including at nearby Tulle where they hanged 99 randomly chosen citizens from lamp posts in response to minor resistance. This is still commemorated every year with those same lampposts being decorated with flowers on the anniversary day. We were in Bretonneux, Correze this year on the anniversary of their attempted resistance to the advance of Das Reich - there was a big church service and lots of vets with their medals. Very moving 'cos it was a few resistance fighters against a German SS Division - they didn't stand a chance but these and other few small efforts did delay the Division so that they could not make a significant contribution to D-Day battles There is also a very good museum at the site. It is well worth a visit - but prepare to be saddened. On the other hand there are always the stories of the young boy and the woman (who hid in a row of pea vines!) who escaped. Easy to reach from Limoges and that is prob your best bet for accommodation. |
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New Tue 12 Nov 13 21:34
Trip to France - Bromptonaut
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Endorse Phil's comments. I went with my parents in 1979. Very sobering experience. At that time German visitors were not universally welcome though the world will have moved on since. My Father, shortly after the end of the war, had visited Lidice in then Czechoslovakia where a similar outrage was committed. Less in way of preserved remains apparently. Certainly worth the effort an I regret lacking the time to revisit last summer when we passed through en-route the Pyrenees. If you fly BRS to Limoges I think you'll need a hire car to make best use of the time. |
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New Tue 12 Nov 13 21:42
Trip to France - Skip
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| This has been on my list "to do" for several years now. I really must make the effort to get there next year. |
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New Tue 12 Nov 13 23:36
Trip to France - Ted
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I've been to Oradour on one of our bike trips.....fascinating and sad place. The village garage has several rusted cars in the back yard. The doctor's Peugeot 203 is badly rusting away where he parked it before being rounded up by the Boche. Other places we went to were La Roche..a good museum in an old car showroom/garage with a spiral roadway to the upper floors. The town was totalled in the war...just rubble. Villy La Ferte, on the Maginot line had a sad end, the garrison were gassed by the Germans. Mostly Algerians, they are buried with their officers just across the road from the fort. en.tracesofwar.com/article/5791/Maginot-Line---Fortress-Villy-La-Fert%E9.htm St Mere Eglise, the first town to be liberated in '44 is a must for D Day interest. A good museum with an Allied glider as centrepiece. Lots of fortifications on the beaches nearby and not too far from the American cemetery at Colville sur Mere. Ted |
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New Tue 12 Nov 13 23:47
Trip to France - R.P.
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| The opening sequence on World at War made a huge impression on me. Laurence Olivier's delivery must be the best narration in the history of documentaries... |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 01:12
Trip to France - Gromit
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Limoges airport is not far from Oradour, you'll need to hire a car to get there easily. There's a hotel at the airport too. As said earlier it's a very sobering place to visit, but it puts WW2 into stark context. What struck me most when I visited over the summer is that many of those involved on the SS side were Alsasce French. As always, the history is complicated. I might plan on doing something more cheerful to finish your trip though, or the return trip could be a bit glum... |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 11:20
Trip to France - Mike Hannon
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I live 10km down the road to the west. In fact we came upon the house we eventually bought when, years ago, we took a detour to avoid the place because SWMBO has history with the Holocaust. I've done the visit several times with friends and family but I would definitely only go on a day with nice weather, if such a thing were possible. And I think entering the ruined church requires a strong constitution. Oddly enough, I find it's the sewing machines that stick in your mind. The visitor centre is open all year EXCEPT January but you can still visit the old town itself by using the small gate beside the former main entrance, opposite the overflow car park. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 13:36
Trip to France - Armel Coussine
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>> we took a detour to avoid the place because SWMBO has history with the Holocaust. I don't have any inclination to visit Oradour. When we were in Czech Republic ten years ago we didn't want to take the day trip to Auschwitz either. To us this was unspeakable stuff we had always known about in detail. But I suppose to youngsters it is 'history', much as 19th century France is to people of our age... Even so, Oradour will be a bummer surely? Go to Limoges and let MH show you the best cabaret and bar. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 13:48
Trip to France - Ambo
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| There were couple of Alsaciens in my French company and they detested the French. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 14:23
Trip to France - Manatee
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I was pleased that my son, on a recent backpacking holiday that included Krakow, took the trouble to go to Auschwitz-Birkenau for a guided visit. We oldies either lived through the that war or grew up around people with fresh memories, but it's different for people now in their 20s. I don't feel the need personally to visit Auschwitz or Oradour either. That these things happened in places an hour or two away, not long before I was born, is something I have been conscious of for a long time. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 14:46
Trip to France - Mapmaker
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>> I was pleased that my son, took the trouble to go to Auschwitz-Birkenau >> I don't feel the need personally to visit Auschwitz or Oradour either. That seems a strange juxtaposition of statements. You weren't involved; nor was he. You don't feel the need to go; you are glad he did. Personally, I don't much like the idea of visiting such places as a part of a tourist industry. I did go round the IWM holocaust exhibition and it's a very odd experience to look at those things with other people there too. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 15:06
Trip to France - Manatee
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Maybe it is strange Mapmaker. But people of my sort of age, about 60, tend to be very well informed about these events. In the 50s and early 60s I was around relatives who had fought in WW1 and WW2. My great uncle was on the Burma railway as a PoW. My mother would tell me about walking to grammar school with her gas mask. It's quite different for much younger people. As AC says, it's "history" like the Tudors or the Victorians to them, not something that they are really aware of as having affected their lives, even though it did. I have visited the D Day beaches and memorials. A great sense of history there too, perhaps more important in the tide of events and something positive to reflect on too. I have also visited the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin. These things need to be remembered. I suppose I feel the same as you about the tourism aspect. I'm uncomfortable with that, and I'm sure that's part of my disinclination to visit Auschwitz or Oradour. Regarding my son - I'm probably more pleased that he felt it important enough to go, more than that he went, if that makes sense. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 16:31
Trip to France - Mapmaker
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Understood. Wandering along the beaches in the Pas de Calais a couple of weekends ago, tripping over hedgehogs, and walking past block houses. Imagining what it must have been like as a German soldier, waiting for the invasion to come as it inevitably would. Knowing that death would likely come with it, and that it would come out of the channel fog. Ugh. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 16:34
Trip to France - Zero
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>> >> Understood. >> >> Wandering along the beaches in the Pas de Calais a couple of weekends ago, tripping >> over hedgehogs, and walking past block houses. Imagining what it must have been like as >> a German soldier, waiting for the invasion to come as it inevitably would. Knowing that >> death would likely come with it, and that it would come out of the channel >> fog. Ugh. Except it came nowhere near the Pas De Calais, nor out of the fog. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 16:37
Trip to France - Manatee
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>> Except it came nowhere near the Pas De Calais, nor out of the fog. Hindsight would have been very handy for that young German soldier! |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 16:45
Trip to France - Zero
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| Better than being the young british soldier, climbing out of the surf, with only a hedgehog for cover in a carefully set up crossfire and killing zone, having to assault the young german soldier in his protected block house, |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 17:00
Trip to France - Mike Hannon
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The 'tourism' aspect of Oradour is a subject that provokes strong opinions on both sides locally. My 13-year-old grandson visited Auschwitz during a school trip to Krakow last month. We weren't very keen on the idea of him going at that age but he seems to have been very adult about it. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 17:41
Trip to France - PhilW
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"The 'tourism' aspect of Oradour is a subject that provokes strong opinions on both sides locally." Mike, I suppose it's about 5 years since I visited but I can't remember it being a "touristy" place - I just remember scenes from the village. I don't even remember having a coffee but I suppose we did. Is it the hordes of people who visit that provoke the "strong opinions" or is there a lot of "tourist tat" there which I don't remember? Perhaps it's that there are still people alive who were in the area at the time? Or families who were affected? P P.S Nice part of the world to live! |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 17:11
Trip to France - Manatee
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>> Better than being the young british soldier, climbing out of the surf, with only a >> hedgehog for cover in a carefully set up crossfire and killing zone, having to assault >> the young german soldier in his protected block house, True. Thankful that I wasn't either of them. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 18:54
Trip to France - MJW1994
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Thanks for these replies, far more detailed than what I expected. I’m neutral about going, I’m doing it for my brother who I know will find it fascinating since he’s mentioned it before. He could go on his own but is a bit young, Mum feels happier if he went with a responsible adult. Well an adult anyway…she can’t have both :-) Our great grandfather served in WW2 in Africa and his brother also served but was caught by the Italians and spent a few years as PoW. I know what we will experience since uncle has explained and the website gives a good indication as well. I do not have any problems with going, it will serve as a reminder of man’s abhorrent behaviour to each other which happened not that long ago and only a few hundred miles away. To me conflict is something far away, Iraq or Afghanistan for example, it is easy to overlook what happened much closer to home and to be thankful for the fact that Europe has been mostly peaceful in recent decades. We will try and arrange some other activities while there, Limoges is a big place. I’m not interested in porcelain but there must be other things to look at. It might be fun to go to a french club if they will let 16 year olds in, brother’s quite good at french and almost the same height as me so it might not be a problem. He will want to go and see any war memorials in Limoges so that will take a while, he’s really into that sort of thing. I’m not bothered about things for me to do, I will be happy sitting in a cafe and watching the world go by, as long as he has a good time. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 19:08
Trip to France - Baz
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| Yes, we went there about 4 years ago, agree with the comments above. It's an extremely atmospheric, sobering experience. My 17 year old daughter ended up in floods of tears. The French pull no punches in the museum area which you have to pass through at the start. Well worth the visit. The church which was at the centre of the atrocity is riddled with bullet holes, one of which goes through a memorial to the Great War on its walls. Plan something uplifting afterwards like a nice meal out, you'll be glad of it. |
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New Thu 14 Nov 13 13:24
Trip to France - Mapmaker
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>> Better than being the young british soldier, climbing out of the surf, with only a >> hedgehog for cover in a carefully set up crossfire and killing zone, having to assault >> the young german soldier in his protected block house, But this didn't happen on the Pas de Calais... |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 22:21
Trip to France - Haywain
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"I have visited the D Day beaches and memorials. A great sense of history there too, perhaps more important in the tide of events and something positive to reflect on too. I have also visited the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin. These things need to be remembered. I suppose I feel the same as you about the tourism aspect. I'm uncomfortable with that, and I'm sure that's part of my disinclination to visit Auschwitz or Oradour." Why should visiting the D-day beaches and memorials be any different to visiting Auschwitz or Oradour? You go there to bear witness, not to eat ice cream and have a laugh. Traveller/visitor/tourist - “I am a traveller ……… you are a visitor …………. but he, (said with a sneer) is a tourist!” One of my wife’s colleagues has a small house near Limoges and he knows the area well. A sensitive teacher of English literature, he was very moved by what he saw at Oradour and wrote a book, ‘Wolf’s Hook’, introducing the subject to young teenagers. We have no definite plans as yet, but it is our intention to visit the village sometime in the future. After much nagging from my wife, we visited Krakow and Auschwitz/Birkenau last October. I thought that I knew all about the concentration camps – I was made aware as a child, and the subject has smoldered in the back of my mind ever since – did I really need to see it? But I was to find out that I actually knew very little. A local Polish lady guided our group and she regarded it as her duty to let others know about what happened in the concentration camps. I have spoken to others who have seen Auschwitz, and they all agree that it was not an enjoyable experience, but they are glad that they did it. There were hundreds of visitors when we were there; it was a grim and sobering experience and most were moved to silence. I have to say that I was not at all impressed by the many groups of bored, chattering, teenage Israeli schoolchildren who were waving large Star of David flags. It seemed to mean less to them than anyone; maybe you have to be ‘of a certain age’ in order to put it into some sort of perspective. Anyway, even if Auschwitz is too much to stomach, Krakow is a wonderful place to visit; we stayed in a small hotel behind the old Remuh Cemetary in the Jewish quarter, well away from the centre and the large commercial hotels (dare I say, touristy?). |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 23:22
Trip to France - Manatee
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You have a point Haywain. I'm not sure why I feel as I do, and I make no argument for it. Nor do I sneer at tourists, that wasn't my meaning at all. I may well visit Krakow, my son was very complimentary about it. |
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New Wed 13 Nov 13 23:39
Trip to France - Armel Coussine
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>> Nor do I sneer at tourists Places like that won't be touristy in the usual sense. But there will be guides, lecturers well used to keeping a solemn face and able to underline the more horrifying details as a matter of course. Anything on sale won't be tat but heavyweight texts with photos from those who were there, and historians of the period. But only those who don't already know it all inside out, images and all, would subject themselves to that, or the heavy, depressing atmosphere of places like that. Do it by all means, but I'll hang about in the pub down the road. |
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New Thu 14 Nov 13 10:05
Trip to France - Haywain
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"Traveller/visitor/tourist - “I am a traveller ……… you are a visitor …………. but he, (said with a sneer) is a tourist!”" Sorry, Manatee, I was just referring to something written by, I think, Craig Brown; the word ‘tourist’ somehow has a slightly derogatory meaning. I suppose we all like to think of ourselves as something above ‘mere tourists’ but, of course, there are good tourists and bad tourists. I recall attending a concert at Snape Maltings a few years ago and falling into conversation with a charming, visiting American couple on the terrace prior to the performance. I felt a great sense of pride in pointing out the view to Iken church through the reeds, across the marsh, on a still summers evening with just the sound of the curlews. Unfortunately, numerically, the English abroad tend to be represented by lager louts, stag/hen parties and ignorant chavs these days. Again, after some nagging from my wife, we visited the Galapagos Islands in 2009. I was well aware of the delicate state of the ecostructure of the islands and concerned about the adverse effects that tourism might have. In the end, I justified it to myself because my colleague had been head of biology at the local comprehensive for many years before retiring and, after qualifying in biology and phytopathology, my working life had also been spent in biology. For our visit to the Galapagos, we were based on a boat with about 80 guests on board – full capacity would have been 100. We were told that the boat would normally be full but, due to the financial crash that had hit the U.S., many bookings had been cancelled. As well as the crew of the boat, there was a team of very knowledgeable and dedicated naturalists whose job was to guide visits to the islands. Visits ashore were closely shepherded by the naturalists and we stuck rigidly to the marked routes in order to create minimum disturbance. Every evening, there was a lecture about what could be expected next day and, during one of the sessions, we had a frank discussion about the effects of tourism on the islands…………...did they secretly hate us??? The senior guide explained that numbers of visitors was regulated using the crude tool of pricing, though they were very worried about the effects of the recession, particularly in the U.S. We were told that tourists were ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to the survival of the Galapagos as they bought a degree of prosperity to the people inhabiting certain islands – without that money, then the people would simply eat the wildlife, and that would be the end of it. I just hope that when times are good, sufficient revenues are being put back into supporting the islands and not finding their way to corrupt officialdom! |
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New Thu 14 Nov 13 12:55
Trip to France - Ambo
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>> Traveller/visitor/tourist - “I am a traveller ……… you are a visitor …………. but he, (said with a sneer) is a tourist!” A tourist thinks of getting home again. A traveller doesn't care if he never does. Thus the gist of Paul Bowles, "The Sheltering Sky". |
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New Thu 14 Nov 13 12:58
Trip to France - Mike Hannon
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The 'tourism' controversy over Oradour in local terms is whether it should remain forever as it is - in the light of the fact that many of the wrecked buildings are starting to crumble and need appropriate work to keep them as they are now - or whether the whole place should be bulldozed and replaced by some sort of memorial centre. The 'new' Oradour is a pleasant enough place, albeit a bit odd looking as it was built all of a piece in the 1950s, and it's possible to cheer up after the visit by patronising my amiable friend 'Big Ben' (he's actually Nigerian) for a drink or a meal at his brasserie a few steps up the street from the 'village martyr'. Other bars are available... I'll be happy to help with advice on Limoges, which is indeed an attractive city for the most part, by email or whatever. I think it's on my profile but the mods are welcome to pass it on if not. |
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New Thu 14 Nov 13 14:00
Trip to France - Haywain
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| Thanks for the information, Mike, our plans over the next 8-20 months are in limbo as my wife's retirement is looming. I understand that her colleague has offered the use of his place to stay so a visit to the area remains very much on the cards. |
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New Thu 14 Nov 13 20:25
Trip to France - PhilW
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Thanks for info on controversy Mike. P |
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