To carry on from a locked thread in the motoring section regarding a warning to peole driving in France, I feel like I should reply to a post from “ifithelps” (on this occasion it doesn’t, sadly). I don’t sit at my computer on Friday evenings and weekends, so didn’t get the chance to respond before it was locked. I’ll follow the convention of imitating the pointy things which indicate the passages of text which are being responded to (hope it works, it's moments like this when I realise I need to learn HTML).
>>. ...It seems to me that there is often an Eastern European dimension....And???????...
>> Alanovic,
>> And nothing.
>>It is worthwhile intelligence to pass on the fact this type of scam is often carried out by >>Eastern Europeans.
It is worthwhile intelligence to point out that this type of scam happens, full stop. People must be alert to criminals. To try to make out that it’s only one nationality of person who is doing this is actually counter productive and confusing. We should simply be telling people to be alert to danger, not to look out for anyone who they think looks Romanian, whatever “look” that is. You can not tell that a person is “Eastern European” just by looking at them, so to look out for them seems somewhat difficult. Also, it’s remarkably irresponsible to tell people that they should not stop to help people in a Romanian registered car, as was implied in the original thread, as this can give the impression that it’s fine to stop for a French, or German, or Austrian registered vehicle and may well end up with someone coming to grief.
>>It is political correctness of the worst sort to deny or somehow seek to censor facts of >>this nature.
I seek to stop people being directed to distrust particular groups or nations, when what is called for is vigilance against certain situations developing, not vigilance against a group of people who can not be identified just by looking at them. People need to avoid the scam, not just an arbitrary group of foreigners. You can’t just scream “political correctness” to win the argument. You’ll have to do better than hiding behind slogans.
>>I will give you another fact or two.
>>In the past couple of years I have been at about a dozen court cases involving the >>'skimming' or 'shoulder surfing' of cash cards at hole-in-the-wall machines.
That’s one anecdote, then.
>>All of the defendants have been Romanians.
>>Now what conclusion do you draw from that?
That in all the cases you have attended, the defendants have been Romanian. No wider significance can be drawn from that, especially not demonising a mythical, extended “Eastern Europe”. Of all the people who I know who have been robbed in the street in the UK, it’s always been by fellow British people. Now what conclusion do you draw from that? None, because you can’t. Just as with your statement.
>>Don't tell me - the conclusion you draw is that I'm a racist. Doh!
Please don’t patronise me, and if you’re going to try that on then get a grip of the English language first. Romanians are part of the same race as us and the rest of indigenous Europe. I couldn’t possibly accuse you of racism in light of that fact even if I wanted to. I’m merely objecting to the knee-jerk anti “Eastern European” campaign which is going on here.
MODs, lock this, bin it, do whatever you like. I just wanted to say my piece, which comes from years, decades in fact, of positive, personal, intellectual and professional involvement with the varied people and cultures of so-called “Eastern Europe”.
And, in case he's still looking for his bite, I'm not even going to dignify Zero's transparent and tasteless attempt at a wind up in the original thread with a response.
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Alanovic, well said, and put much better than I could hope to. It's nice to see an eloquent response to the occasional far right tendencies of some on this forum.
Last edited by: Statistical Outlier on Mon 7 Jun 10 at 15:13
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>> Alanovic, well said, and put much better than I could hope to. It's nice to
>> see an eloquent response to the occasional far right tendencies of some on this forum.
Indeed, so nice to have a civilised approach to life, but alas here is the rational, practical, sensible and safer approach
Never ever stop to assist someone with a Rumanian number plate. Its simply not worth the risk. And probably applies to an Albanian number plates as well.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 7 Jun 10 at 15:46
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>> but alas here is the
>> rational, practical, sensible and safer approach
>>
The truly rational, sensible and safer approach is not to stop for anyone in circumstances where you feel you may be at risk. To bang on about Romanians or Albanians adds absolutely nothing and serves, as I said, to potentially open people up to danger if they feel they are being safe by only stopping for drivers of vehicles with registrations from countries they percieve to export less dangerous people.
And it serves to entrench prejudice and fear.
Madness.
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No simply a matter of risk. Rather like the way your insurance premiums are calculated.
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My grandfather was a german prisoner of war who settled here. He never told anyone outside the family his first name ( Hans ) and instead used his more english sounding middle name of Peter in public.
He didnt want people judging him because of where he was born. He stuck to that until he died in 2004. The British public were as ignorant then about foreigners as they are now.
There really is no typical person from any one country and its wholly unfair to group people together base soley on nationality.
Its not even right-wing, its just racist ignorance that isnt worthy of a political association.
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Not at all racist ignorance. Merely home truths that are outlawed. Unlike the trendy linking of any fact with the use of the word Racist. Now thats ignorance.
Woudl you like to live next door to a travelers camp? That would prove your true heart felt liberal tendencies.
(oh by the way - you can say you would, but in truth, you wouldnt really.)
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 7 Jun 10 at 16:35
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Home truths according to who? The BNP?
It may well be trendy, thats because we have moved on a trend towards not making groundless assumptions based purely on someones race or nationality.
By travellers camp, do we mean an illegal settlement or an established community or someone pitching up at the side of the road?
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Did I mention the BNP? did I mention repatriation of immigrants settled in the uk? Did I mention closing our borders to migrant WORKERS or genuine ASSYLUM seekers?
No I didnt. I did not mention any kind of nationalistic behaviour. That shows how little your understanding of the term racism is. Just a hackneyed phrase you trot out.
Nowhere were my statements racist, merely pointing out the likelyhood that people in Albanian or Rumanian registered cars were a risk.
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>> By travellers camp, do we mean an illegal settlement or an established community or someone
>> pitching up at the side of the road?
you know exactly what I mean. I mean the illegal settlements AND the sites where the inhabitants are migratory. The ones where none of the cars are registered to correct owners or have insurance.
Now answer the question TRUTHFULLY
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My apologies Zero, indeed, xenophobe is a far more accurate term.
>>you know exactly what I mean. I mean the illegal settlements AND the sites where the inhabitants are migratory. The ones where none of the cars are registered to correct owners or have insurance.
Now answer the question TRUTHFULLY<<
And there it is. HOW do you know that at all these sites, no car is correctly registered or insured?
Have you checked, or is it just an assumption because they live in a caravan?
The fair recently came to my small town, parked up with all their caravans in the town centre. Certainly travellers but are they really to be feared? They are half a mile from my house, what should I worry about? Maybe an excess of candyfloss?
To your question, I dont want any illegal site next to my house because by definition, its illegal and they are flouting the law. Im not keen on people who flout the law as some have done rather obviously as seen in the press of late. If it is a legally built site, I have no issue with that if due process is followed.
Just because someone lives in a caravan, I dont assume they are trouble as ive known many people who live in caravans over the years and while those I knew were invariably scruffy, it had no bearing on their character.
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>> My apologies Zero, indeed, xenophobe is a far more accurate term.
Again you are wrong. Did I say I was afraid of them?
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>>merely pointing out the likelyhood that people in Albanian or Rumanian registered cars were a risk.<<
You seem to fear a specific level of risk attached to people from these countries, yes.
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two out of 195 countries is hardly zenophobia is it?
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Edited for brevity and not changing the meaning:Alanovic >> The truly rational, approach is not to stop for anyone in circumstances
>> where you feel you may be at risk. To bang on about Romanians or Albanians
>> adds absolutely nothing and serves, to open people up to danger
>> if they feel they are being safe stopping for drivers of vehicles with other registrations
Really, Alanovic, do you really believe that this suggestion opens people to danger? It's very nice of you, but probably readers of this forum have more common sense than that.
There is a finite risk associated with every action taken in life. The risk associated with stopping for a Romanian registered car is significantly higher than that associated with stopping for a UK registered car.
There is a large cultural difference between Western Europeans and the South Eastern Europeans to whom we refer here. Both parties have beggers, but the English begger will sit on the street and ask for a florin for a cup of tea; the Romanian will send out a five year old child with a piano accordion.
Russians, meanwhile, are very welcome indeed here; they have money. Poles likewise are hard workers (though they have artificially kept inflation down in the UK which has kept interest rates down which is why we are in this mess). Romanians and Albanians are much higher-risk guests here.
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>> Really, Alanovic, do you really believe that this suggestion opens people to danger?
>>
Ever heard of a false sense of security? Useful for criminals, that. Wherever they come from.
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>> Ever heard of a false sense of security? Useful for criminals, that. Wherever they come from.
You are the one promoting a false sense of security by denying that the element of risk is different, depending on the nationality of the person whose car you are stopping by.
I know it's the Mail, so some of the over-empasis needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-413985/Eastern-European-immigrants-carry-tenth-crime.html
Yesterday's leaked Cabinet Office memo drawn up by immigration minister Liam Byrne and Europe minister Geoff Hoon:
On cashpoint crime, which cost Britons more than £60million last year, the documents states: "80 to 85 per cent of this nationally can be attributed to Romanian organised crime groups."
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...I’m merely objecting to the knee-jerk anti “Eastern European” campaign which is going on here...
Alanovic,
I am pleased you have had your say - the only knee jerk reaction in my view was from the mod who stopped you doing so by locking the thread.
All I would add is that my original post was not part of any campaign, it was factual.
It's up to the individual if they want to deny those facts, act upon them, take them on board, or dismiss them.
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Why is it the Police won't venture into Gypsy (If that is the correct word) camps?
Why do the fairground workers keep youngsters mobile phones when they fall out of their pockets on a ride? We caught one out within two minutes of it being lost and the memory had already been erased!
Trust an Eastern European. No. Maybe wrong, but I ain't about to take the chance. The balance of probability is that I will get turned over. It also applies to lots of other groups.
Why should I take the risk when I know the odds?
Some folk need to get real.
M
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>> Some folk need to get real.
>>
How's this for real.
I've been mugged, burgled, had various cars stolen and broken in to, had my pocket picked, been assaulted - all in Britain, France and Spain.
I've been assaulted whilst at work and threatened with murder if I didn't serve him alcohol, whilst a knife was held to my throat - English man from Leeds (I could tell as he was wearing a Leeds United shirt and spoke in a Yorkshire accent).
I confronted and chased the burglar out of my house - British. One stolen car was taken to be used as a getaway in armed robberies - assailants caught and convicted - British. Mugged - British lad. Can't say who was responsible for the various car break-ins I had in London, Nottingham and Seville, nor the pick pocketing I experienced in France, but Romanians aren't top of my suspects list. Punched in the head in a bar, broken jaw, well spoken English rugby player from Surrey. He thought I was someone who had schtupped his girlfriend, I wasn't.
I have lived, travelled and studied extensively in a triangle roughly described by Berlin, St Petersburg, Baku (Azerbaijan) and Podgorica (Montenegro). Never been a victim of crime, nor felt threatened by anyone. Despite sticking out in most places like a dogs balls, being a blue skinned, ginger haired person and obviously a foreigner likely to be carrying valuables such as money, gadgets and a passport.
Yes, crime does happen in these places, there are bad folk about, and some of these bad folk cross borders and commit their crimes elsewhere. Some of our bad folk do likewise. Nick Leeson? Should Singaporeans be afraid of and avoid contact with plummy British bankers?
I realise this is all anecdotal, however others seem to be presenting anecdote as fact so I feel it pertinent to point our my experiences of various nationalities, in the hope that somehwere it will sink in that it's just not good enough to keep shouting "foreigners - bad, you must be afeared" as it gets us nowhere.
Manatee's right in a lot of what he says - perhaps charity starts at home and justice starts next door (debatable), but suspicion and mistrust shouldn't start at Dover.
I trust the driver of a British registered car waving at me for help just about as much as a Romanian registered driver. I would be circumspect about them all, and treat any individual incident as it happened, taking all factors in to account. I certainly wouldn’t just think – “Romanian number plates, avoid”, nor “British plates, get in there”. After all, it might be a Romanian in that British reg car! ;-)
Think about the crimes to which you have fallen victim in your lives. Think about who the perpetrators were. Then come back and tell me that you should never trust an “East European”, in the words of a contributor to these pages.
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I dont really recall Nick Leeson actually involved in person on person crime.
You miss one salient point. On the whole normal wholesome rumanian and albanian people lack the funds to be able to travel europe in cars. This means they are either legaly rich (in home terms) or illegaly rich. Normal holiday makers or travelers they aint.,
A drunk leeds united supporter is common and, lets be honest, pretty easy to spot.
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>Should Singaporeans be afraid of and avoid contact with plummy British bankers?
actually in retrospect ? yes they should. Those plummy british bankers have stolen consdierable sums of money from all of us and we are all the poorer. Its possibly the single worse crime this century.
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Alanovich, please don't imagine that you are the only one here with any intelligence or compassion.
I'm sure these antisocial parasites love their mothers, but there are many credible accounts from official sources of the plague of Romanian criminal gangs operating throughout Europe.
I am not so stupid as to suppose that they are in any way representative of the Romanians I should meet if I went there, but I would, however, be stupid were I to ignore the fact that that there is a high likelihood that any 'distressed' ones I meet in the UK, France, or Spain for example will be the wrong kind. Sometimes it is unwise not to judge a book by its cover.
This does not lead me to advocate wholesale punishment (or worse) of an entire nationality.
My rational self says it is the price we pay for our freedom, but I still wonder what the criminal classes who live by inflicting misery on others are for, and why we keep them at liberty, whatever their nationality. Perhaps this makes me less than perfect.
Charity begins at home, and justice begins next door.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 8 Jun 10 at 00:02
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Now that was a very balanced post and one that a much wider audience (than here) could do with absorbing.
Morning all.....M
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I'm beginning to regret my post that started this whole thing.
I wrote out of my experience of having driven in Romania. I have been there several times, because I have several friends who are Romanians. I learned things when I was out there, and thought I would pass on my observations.
I didn't mean to start World War III. Honest.
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tyro
this is a discussion forum
im pleased you brought it up
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We have friends who are Romanian, and you couldn't wish to meet a nicer couple.
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I'm getting slightly tired of the sound of certain people's voices in this thread - strident, opinionated, closed-minded, not receptive to reasoned argument.
Just my opinion, mind! Just as well I'm not a mod, otherwise I'd be tempted to... Hang on, someone's already done that. No, that was the other thread...
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>> strident, opinionated, closed-minded, not receptive to reasoned argument.
thats another way of saying they dont agree with you.
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:-) You bit.
"thats another way of saying they dont agree with you."
Let's just say "their" thought-processes don't appeal.
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I think it must be true what they say about ginger hair:)
Pat
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no you cant claim that pat, thats a genetic sterotype, stereotypes are not allowed on here lest it upset those pure of thought. (perhaps lack of thought?)
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I've read stories of blood-sucking Romanians in the N.W. of Romania, dunno about hair colour though.
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>> I think it must be true what they say about ginger hair:)
>>
Things is, Pat, the type of oik who enjoys picking fights will often go for a ginger bloke because of this myth. Been on the end of it often enough, and I'm just about the least likely bloke to want to be in a fight that you can imagine. I have always believed that one's best weapons are one's legs.
The only thing that's true about us as a group is that we should really all be living north of Middlesbrough to stay out of the sun. Gets a bit too much for me even here in Berkshire.
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>Gets a bit too much for me even here in Berkshire.
>>
The Royal County of Berks no less.
M
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>> The Royal County of Berks no less.
>>
Now nothing more than a adjunct to a postal address. And not even a necessary one at that.
Berkshire has gone the way of Middlesex and many other historic British places. It's all a bit of a mess, my house used to be in Oxfordshire until 1974. Databases are divided on which county it is in now, Berks or Oxon. My council tax dosh goes to a "Unitary Authority" now. How romantic.
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-> The Royal County of Berks no less <-
:-D
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>> -> The Royal County of Berks no less <-
>>
>> :-D
>>
Oh. I get it now.
Clever. Should have paid more attention in the playround rather than in class I suppose.
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I bought my shiny £350 car from a Russian man who's set up here. Decent bloke. There are only two sorts of people, really, wherever you go in the world.
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Im half east german and all I can think of is taking over my neighbours garden and parking my Trabbie there.
My jewish bit says sign up for the Bilderberg Group and its a real struggle to suppress my english side which says I should go to any spanish speaking country and get insanely drunk and behave like an animal. Gotta love stereotypes, they are just spot on every time.
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>> to suppress my english side which says I should go to any spanish speaking country
>> and get insanely drunk and behave like an animal. Gotta love stereotypes, they are just
>> spot on every time.
you think the spanish made it up as a joke? Sterotypes have basis in fact.
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Stereotypes? There must be more to life.
(with thanks to Damon All-Bran)
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Alanovic, I do hope you're taking this in the spirit it's intended, it's just our sense of humour.....we love you really:)
Pat
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>> Alanovic, I do hope you're taking this in the spirit it's intended, it's just our
>> sense of humour.....we love you really:)
Pat, that's the trouble with t'interweb. You never really can tell the intention behind the written words.
I try to see the best in everyone and I hope that intentions are benign here, but there have been things posted in this and the other thread which make me (and others, evidently) distinctly uncomfortable.
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Alanovic, if you like, we can have another go at the 4x4 debate chap, if you fancy something light-hearted
;-)
I think you have to accept that everyone has their point of view, right or wrong in others eyes and sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. You have to if you want to take a broader view.
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My (Swedish) motor insurance policy states quite clearly that they will not pay out for a vehicle theft claim in the following EU countries: Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Poland, Hungary and Bulgaria, unless the car has it's windows etched with the reg number, and an electronic immobiliser fitted.
I guess insurance companies are also reacting simply to stereotypes nowadays.
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In defence of eastern Europeans, we have Lithuanians, Romanians and Poles working in our yard unloading containers.
They work harder, are more willing and treat me, ( as a female), with more respect than anyone else who has ever done that job.
They are a joy to talk to and are so pleased that we make the effort to communicate with them.
Pat
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An stereotypically, the eastern European young women who come here as au pairs do a fantastic job - far better than others who are quite lazy. We use a friend's au pair for ironing. She could iron for the Queen she is so good and is really good looking after the kids once in a while.
Horses for Courses and depends on the circumstances.
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But in the 2 posts above they are employed and we know who and where they are. Not itinerants.
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A mate of mine is in forensics for a west country police force. Poles and Romanians score the worst by a long margin for extreme cruelty for small transgressions by others. One guy nearly beaten to death and all of his fingernails pulled out with pliers. £600.00 debt apparently and they drove the poor sod 200 miles whilst they tortured him. Maybe not typical but I for one ain't taking any chances not ever not no way. There is good and bad in all, but my survival is based upon gut feeling assisted by odds.
Regards to you ALL.
Martin
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"My (Swedish) motor insurance policy states quite clearly that they will not pay out for a vehicle theft claim in the following EU countries: Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Poland"
You won't get your car stolen in Poland by a grotty teenager who just wants to joyride. It doesn't happen.
Nor will you be stabbed by a grotty teenager just to get respek from his mates.
Nor will you encounter grotty teenagers binge-drinking, fighting and vomiting in the streets on a Friday and Saturday night.
Those are the areas where Britain leads Europe.
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Tho Dave is trying his best to teach them the last one.
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>> Dave is trying his best to teach them the last one.
Heh heh... I'm sure they feel too intimidated and outclassed to attempt it themselves Zero... imagine being taught your multiplication tables by Albert Einstein...
:o}
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Actually I rather had my mind on improving their teenage pregnancy stats...
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It's no wonder there's often an Eastern European dimension.
Have a read of what the UN has to say about state corruption in that region.
unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UNTC/UNPAN017450.pdf
When the state has endemic corruption, it is no wonder that the people have too.
Where do the Pink Panther Jewel thieves originate from?
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if the information in that link is correct then the table makes pretty sobering reading
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'Eastern European' debate - my two penn'orth - Statistical Outlier
