Just a few miles from here, Portsmouth way, two girls of 14 and 16 have been killed by a car, whose 20-year-old male driver has now been charged with murder.
What kind of person could that boy be? What could those two children have done or said that would induce even a nasty idiot to do something like that purposely?
A saddening, horrible event that makes my blood run cold. I have a lot of charming, essentially harmless female descendants who are quite capable of giving anyone a verbal slap across the chops, when provoked. I do hope they don't know anyone like that boy (unless of course he's innocent and it was a genuine accident).
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All terrible. I would just add two things;
1) Girl, Age 14. 4:15am. with 16yr old friend. Party. I don't think my 14 yr old will be found at at a 4:15am party with or without the 16yr old mate.
2) Dunno what being charged for "murder" really means, but if it means "being a total idiot in a car" then I've done that, I just hit a hedge instead.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 3 Dec 13 at 13:02
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>> 2) Dunno what being charged for "murder" really means, but if it means "being a
>> total idiot in a car" then I've done that, I just hit a hedge instead.
>>
>>
I think it means intentional rather than accidental.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 3 Dec 13 at 13:02
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Which puts a different perspective on the driver's actions, but not on the actions of the 14yr old's parents.
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No use over-speculating, the only certainty is that lives have been lost or ruined.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 3 Dec 13 at 13:02
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There was a sharp intake of breath in our house when we saw that 14 & 16 year old lasses were out at 0415hrs.
When my daughter was at that sort of age, I or my wife would turn out to collect her after a party or other entertainment - indeed I recall doing just that when she was over 18!
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Yeah, well, 4.15 a.m. is a bit late (but also makes the accusation of murder more convincing). We all worry about the young - boys too I believe - and do anxious, often tiresome taxi duty for them. But they resent it if we faff too much, just as we would have done at their age, and provided they are not alone we don't worry too much once they pass 15 or 16.
Oh God. One of mine turns 21 in a couple of weeks.
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>> we don't worry too much once they pass 15 or 16.
Speak for yourself.
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>> Speak for yourself.
I do, as always. They are London girls who know how to cross the road and how to recognise trouble when they see it coming.
And I didn't say we don't worry. Just that we don't worry too much 'provided they are not alone'. There's safety of a sort in numbers.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 3 Nov 13 at 20:38
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>> >> we don't worry too much once they pass 15 or 16.
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>> Speak for yourself.
You worry, but as soon as they leave school and go to work/college you can't dictate where they go or what time they do it, you have to hope that all your woefully inadequate parenting up to that point has done the trick. TBF most of us get it right most of the time.
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>>There was a sharp intake of breath in our house when we saw that 14 & 16 year old lasses were out at 0415hrs
I still worry when I haven't had the daily call from my 20 year old who is at uni!
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As above, murder charge means that police/CPS believe he intended to kill and that car was used as a weapon.
Like Mark there's no way either daughter or son at 14yo or for that matter any other age under 18yo would have been out that time of night/day.
If either of mine, now 21 and 19, are out locally 'clubbing' I worry until I hear the taxi in the road. OTOH, as both are at Uni, I've no idea what they're doing while away and don't think twice about settling down for night without a clue as to what they are up to.
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Our daughter is 41 and we still worry about her - you never stop being a parent.
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>> you never stop being a parent.
Yup. Or a grandparent.
There's a lot to be said for chastity.
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True, the grandbrats (3 girls, one boy) are coming up for the teenage bit. Here we go again, even if it is once removed and we will be even less aware of their antics. At least their parents were well trained. :-)
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I don't think either of ours were out at that sort of hour at that age either, but we don't know the exact circumstances that led to them being out at that time, in what appears to be a residential area and outside the home of one of the girls.
It would be inappropriate to condemn the girls or their parents, especially in the circumstances that are still being investigated.
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>> Our daughter is 41 and we still worry about her - you never stop being a parent.
>>
We are the same. Our daughter is in her thirties and travels the world but is now back at UNI however she knows I will turn out at ANY hour if she needs me or if I can help a situation.
I have sometimes done the 120 mile round trip as a taxi driver if I think she is too tired to safely drive. Most of the time I am not aware where she is but she often updates us with her latest location. She usually updates us after a home visit when arriving back at Uni past midnight or hours later.
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It will be interesting to see if the charge is still murder when the case gets to trial.
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Generally at weekends I don't get back to around 3:00 - 3:30am in the morning. I think my parents do worry about me getting the bus back but it is very safe and actually made some friends on the nightbus. Always great chatting to the young Spanish and Polish people who frequent that bus too. I am 31 and male though so it is very different, but I am still out walking to bus stops at a very late hour etc.
There is no way I would be allowed out at 4:00am when I was 16 though. When I was 17 I did used to go to my friends house and I remember getting into a lot of trouble coming home about 11:30pm completely drunk. The problem is what happens if you're kids saying their staying with such a such friends house, you think fine but you have to be able to trust the friends parents, it could be them at is letting them out so late.
Young people will be young people and will always try and manipulate their parents. I was a boring idiot who didn't really start clubbing until I was 18-19 though. I just think it is wrong to completely blame the parents at this stage as none of us know what happened. Either way two young people have lost their lives and that is a tragedy.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 4 Nov 13 at 11:08
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What a nice cat you are Sheikha.
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I'm sure my two think I am a bit of a bumbler. But they know I have their interests at heart, and we have always been on the same side, by and large.
By design, the boss and I have never laid down the law. When they were younger, the decision to be home by a given time, report in, call for a lift or whatever was always theirs albeit after a certain amount of obligatory counselling and sometimes discussion.
I'm not talking about giving small children the choice to walk in front of a bus or stick their hand in the fire of course. But when they have the power of reason it should be acknowledged and brought into play.
You can only influence your children when they are actually minded to listen to you. Unless you are prepared to take coercion and control to an extreme, laying down the law won't work and will reduce the notice they take pretty much to zero.
So far, so good. At 32 and 28, they seem now to be more sensible than I am and I often ask them for advice.
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>>You can only influence your children when they are actually minded to listen to you
Absolutely. So a 14yr old girl out and about at 4:15 a.m. suggests that the issue is larger than simply one night of misbehaving.
An awful and disproportionate "punishment" though, for the child and her parents.
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No mention of the parents at all on the BBC website, only of the school. They may not have been living at home.
>>An awful and disproportionate "punishment" though, for the child
One might be generally inclined to blame parents, rather than children.
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Quote... "Head teacher Richard Kelly, from Brune Park Community School, said both girls were ‘independent, strong-minded individuals who lived their lives to the full, with confidence and a sense of humour and a sense of fun".
Which probably explains why they were out at that time at their ages.
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>> Quote... "Head teacher Richard Kelly, from Brune Park Community School, said both girls were ‘independent,
>> strong-minded individuals who lived their lives to the full, with confidence and a sense of
>> humour and a sense of fun".
>>
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>> Which probably explains why they were out at that time at their ages.
Very long winded way of saying "they were an uncontrollable PITA"
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>> Quote... "Head teacher Richard Kelly, from Brune Park Community School, said both girls were ‘independent,
>> strong-minded individuals who lived their lives to the full, with confidence and a sense of
>> humour and a sense of fun".
Even I could read the sub-text in that!
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I had the same thought when I read that Fenlander. But I knew it was an unworthy one.
We just don't know what circumstances led to them being there at 4.15am, or whether they were well brought up and looked after.
Natural to think that things like this happen to people who are not like us. But bad things do happen to good people.
I rebuke myself, not you.
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Actually, seeing some more press coverage my view and what I'd allow my own kids to do changes slightly. Initial impression was of them being in a town 'clubbing'.
Seems that the girls were attending a party near their homes. While 04:00 seems more than a bit late for a 14yo I would and did allow mine to come home alone within the village after midnight by 16/17. My attitude to them being witihn walking distance would not have been different if we were in an attached rather than detatched suburb of Northampton.
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My own children are not quite that age, my nieces are.
And NFW would my 14yr old niece be walking along the streets at 4:15am *WHEREVER* she was.
And I used to live in Gosport. It can be a bit lairy at night for an adult male, never mind a 14yr old girl.
And in any case, its not strictly the 14yrs and the 4:00am, its what those two facts imply, or at least what I infer from them, about the approach to her life as a whole.
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Not a lover of the 'thumbs' so well said Mark.
Pat
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I always had to say where I was going, who with, what we would be doing (with some details excluded maybe…..) and when I would be back. If I was going to be later than agreed then I would be expected to phone or text back home.
Provided I was doing nothing illegal, stupid or embarrassing to the family, then my parents were not too concerned what I was up to. It worked on trust and that trust had to be earned, they knew I wouldn’t abuse it and I knew it was in my interests not to.
When I turned 18 the chain was slackened more as they said if I was at Uni then they wouldn’t know what I was up to anyway. Now they still expect me to say when I am coming back or to phone or text with alterations to my schedule. They know the things I get up to depending on which friends I’m with, nearly always I will be with my best mate so it would either be snooker or fiddling with one of his project cars. I’ve never really been into clubbing, I have mates who are though and sometimes I will go with them but not often.
If I’m out with one of my female friends then I will always get them back home safely, its better that having an irate father banging on my door the next day!! My friend from the tennis club is always concerned about her safety. On Saturday one of her friends was having a Birthday party in central Bristol. It was an all girlies party, no blokes invited. Ooohh to be a fly on the wall LOL. She could get the bus there but getting back past midnight would be difficult and she prefers her own comforts to roughing it on someones floor. When I saw her on Thursday she was all stressed about it and decided not to go which I thought was a shame, so I said if she got there by bus I would pick her up. In the end I took her both ways as it was hammering down with rain Saturday evening, she looked lovely in her party frock and I thought wouldn’t appreciate getting soaked. Then at 1am Sunday morning I picked her up. She sometimes will say to drop her off at the end of the road but I prefer to see she’s got in the front door, you never know there might be a pervert lurking in the bushes. I’m certain she enjoyed the party much more knowing she could get back safely and I felt happier knowing she was back home without incident.
It was quite odd picking her up though. I was invited in and there were about fifteen young ladies mid to late twenties all in various states of intoxication and no other blokes. What do girls get up to on their own? I felt quite lucky to get away in one piece!
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>> What do girls get up to on their own? I felt quite
>> lucky to get away in one piece!
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Once you have established yourself as a "good bloke" as opposed to an unreliable drunken waster, you will find out, and be beating them off with a stick. :-)
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>>Once you have established yourself as a "good bloke" as opposed to an unreliable drunken waster, you will find out, and be beating them off with a stick. :-)
Joke of the day!
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>I was invited in and there were about fifteen young ladies mid to late twenties all in various states
>of intoxication and no other blokes.
In our early 20s when we were living overseas, some friends organised a BBQ and party to celebrate moving into their new house. After the BBQ, we blokes were told to disappear to a local bar at not return until 10pm.
About 9pm Sandy decided he was going to ignore the curfew and go back.
The next morning, Mrs K told me that Sandy had arrived while they were still in a state of undress playing girly forfeit games. They let him in and carried on, totally unconcerned.
Sandy is gay.
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Probably asbergers or some other new craze.
Last edited by: sooty tailpipes on Mon 4 Nov 13 at 21:01
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When Mrs Ted and I were walking out, about 50 yrs ago when she was 16, it was always me who had to drag her away from parties to comply with her dad' rules...although he wasn't ungenerous with his times.
As an older, mature bloke of 18, I knew that keeping her parents happy would pay dividends in the long run ! She didn't like the curfew very much, though.
Ted
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>>undress playing girly forfeit games. They let him in and carried
>> on, totally unconcerned.
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>> Sandy is gay.
My colleague Paul is gay (but went with girls for a while in his teens) and gets away with saying stuff that would have my balls kicked into the middle of next week
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My mate Nigel went the first two years of college telling everybody that he thought he was gay but wished he wasn't.
Git. I don't know how many women tried to "save" him.
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Oh well played that man. Why didn't I think of that? Rats.
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The OP stated wrongly that the driver had been charged with murder. He hasn't... sorry about that misinformation. The police have until tomorrow to charge him with something or let him go. Murder is no longer being mentioned by the TV news channels.
First reports of these events seem often to be very misleading. One shouldn't really comment too soon, however moved one may be, on such a basis. I am old enough to know that, and hang my head a bit.
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Apparently one of the girls had brought along some posters of men in their swimming trunks and the guests were rating these men against certain criteria, presumably sex appeal rather than the colour of their trunks. All harmless fun.
Otherwise it was just eating, drinking and girlie chat (whatever that is)
She had a good time though and was appreciative of the lift back home in the early hours of Sunday morning.
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Accused said to have wept in court today. Not your average murderer then.
Apparently the girls stepped into the road to flag him down. Doubtless he was distracted for the crucial moment. A routine tragedy then most likely.
'Murder' sounds so reassuring: we would never do something like that. But any of us at any time through a combination of circumstances can run over and kill someone.
We would rather believe some poor boy was a murderer than see this as something that could happen to us (and to one or more other poor sods), any day.
Of course FMR I speak for myself. But I point at everyone.
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>>But I point at everyone.
As useful and worthwhile as pointing at nobody.
The point remains that had the 14yr old been in the house at 4:15a.m. she would not have been run down, whatever the other circumstances.
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Yeah, if the circumstances don't exist the tragedy can't happen. A truly useful and worthwhile reminder FMR.
How will you take it if I point at you? I think I will. You will do for anyone/no one.
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>> >>But I point at everyone.
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>> As useful and worthwhile as pointing at nobody.
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>> The point remains that had the 14yr old been in the house at 4:15a.m. she
>> would not have been run down, whatever the other circumstances.
That is obviously true but the more I read of this case the less I follow the parental negligence line.
A 14yo going miles from home 'clubbing' at 04:15 is one thing - condemn. OTOH there's something going on locally, 'in our street' with people we know then perspective is a bit different - there but etc.. My son at 14 would have wanted to be in bed at that time but his sister, like me, is a bit nocturnal and might have joined in a neighbourhood/best friends party.
If this tragedy grew from that sort of encounter then I'm less inclined to condemn then at first instance.
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My eldest is 11, so I guess I have 3 years to learn different, but I swear that she would not be 6" outside the front gate at 4:00 a.m.
And saying something is wrong is a little different to condemning.
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The late hour could be a one-off. I agree though, a bit reluctantly, that if the 14-year-old was regularly keeping such hours there could be a question of neglect,
But we don't know. I don't anyway.
Don't think me careless. When my middle daughter was 14 she wanted to go out with a friend of a relation at the height of carnival. I told the woman how far they should go in each direction and said I wanted to see them in half an hour. They came back after more than an hour tracked by a cheeky gang of teenage spade muggers.
Same woman turned up the next year and I wouldn't let her in the house despite the pleas of her friend. Damn Welsh hippy idiot.
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'Murder' by Honda - No FM2R
