I think there are one or two people on here who know about old school hifi stuff?
So, is this a mad idea?
I have resurrected our old hifi kit. I like the sound it's producing (and that may be key actually). But of course the temptation is to look at "upgrading it with bargains from the internet" type of thing.
As the kit is probably, from memory, eighties/early nineties stuff, I have a fond imagining that I could pick up something that's a decade younger for fifty quid that will blow what I've got into the weeds. Trouble is I don't know where to start.
What we have is a Technics SL-L1 direct drive turntable with an Ortofon OMP5 cartridge. Unlike the belt driven thing we had before that it holds a sustained note perfectly evenly to my ear and always has.
A Marantz CD player of some sort
A Cambridge Audio Arcam Alpha 1 amplifier
And a set of Wharfedale Diamond speakers (probably diamond 2 at a guess).
All connected with speaker cable - that is, not bell wire, not Monster million pound per inch cable, but 4mm fiver a metre stuff. Not bi-wired as there are no connections to do so.
So, for the hifi buffs - what if any of that could I think about doing something with? Don't want to spend 6k on a new turntable or anything!
Mrs C thinks it's a waste of time as it all works and we're happy enough, and she's probably right, but just in case...
|
|
Eggboxes on the walls and iPod connectivity, innit.
|
I haven't bought any new hi-fi kit for decades and still use the mostly original kit for several hours daily. From what I recall, yours is all good stuff and if you like it, keep it. Otherwise, use for a while to refresh your memory of it, then compare it with more up-to-date stuff owned by friends - better than in dealer showrooms as you will hear under actual operating conditions and probably at greater length. Then you can decide if you want to change.
I used members of BADA, British Audio Dealers association for professional advice. They were very good but didn't give any discounts. I was surprised at the high proportion of total outlay they recommended be devoted to speaker cables. Mine consist of two cables held about 1" apart by a plastic web. The copper inners are extremely thick. They need to have the amp end distinguished from the speaker end as it seems they work best in one direction only.
(As another example of dark speaker arts, I read of an American enthusiast who insisted that cables had to be of bare wire, suspended in the air via loose string from the ceiling. Hard cord wouldn't do at all for her.)
Otherwise, The Hi-Fi Hangar buys old hi-fi kit, or did. Contact Steve & Sarah on 07890-517619 or 01420-472316 [Alton], or email hifihangar@googlemail.com/
|
Copper that conducts better one way than the other. good windup
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 09:32
|
>> the missus is right
>>
Odd how often they are isn't it? :-(
|
I have three systems. My parents system is basically my old stuff and is of late 90s/early 2000s vintage. It is all budget suff, Sony CD player, Marantz PM4000 amp, JPW speakers etc. My system is quite a bit newer and have the full setup and it is brilliant wouldn't swap it for anything.
Marantz PM6003 amp, Marantz CD6000 OSE LE cd player, Whafedale Diamond 9.1 speakers, Project Debut MK2 turntable and Senheisier HD25 headphones.
I then have a work shop system, Marantz CD5004 (bought for £25 second hand), a Yamaha AX392 amp (bought for £30 second hand) and a pair of new Diamond 9s. Sounds stunning considering the entire thing cost me £105.
I have a wonderful class A Cambridge Audio amp in my shed but it kept overheating and nobody could fix it so I just keep it in the hope that one day I will know somebody who can. Paid £250 for my PM6003 which although bought as a stop gap I will end up keeping until it breaks, I can't get away with playing loud music anyway so I tend to use my HD25s a lot.
|
>>Copper that conducts better one way than the other. good windup
So one would assume, but a.) I had already paid for a package deal of several items so why would the dealer then bother, as he had to use an instrument to establish polarity? and b.) is there an expert out there who can comment?
|
|
I am a bit open minded when it comes to cables, it is not just the copper that is important but the quality of the insulation and how well it deals with RF interference. I think saying a cable has to go in one direction taking things a little far though.
|
>> So one would assume, but a.) I had already paid for a package deal of
>> several items so why would the dealer then bother, as he had to use an
>> instrument to establish polarity? and b.) is there an expert out there who can comment?
Because either (a) he believed it himself; or (b) to keep the faith so that he can sell you an upgrade to your speaker cables in due course.
I hope you put a green felt-tip line around the edges of your CDs to stop the laser light escaping...
|
|
Oh and cut tennis balls in half and use them as feed to stop the vibrations from the CD players transport from travelling through the speakers via the floorboards :D
|
Oh and cut tennis balls in half and use them as feet to stop the vibrations from the CD players transport from travelling through the speakers via the floorboards :D
Scoff if you must but equipment support does matter. I blew a small bequest last year on one of these (the XR - couldn't find a single link) www.signals.uk.com/somethingsolidat.html , which offers nine (!) changes of material between the player and the floor. On it, my kit sounds vastly better than when it sat on an old steel-framed coffee table, especially in the location and scale of voices - makes music sound natural and believable.
The same designer's speaker stands were an even greater revelation to me 15 years ago, even under the cheap 1980s Celestions I had then.
Musical enjoyment has little to do with age-related loss of sensitivity at the frequency extremes. But that's also why you can't buy hifi online, or even use other people's recommendations as more than a guide. You have to hear it yourself, and if it sounds good to you, it is good.
|
Will don't get me wrong I built a proper shelf for my HIFI and each separate is on its own shelf. My speakers are also on proper stands.
I just think the tennis ball idea was taking things too far.
|
>> >>Copper that conducts better one way than the other. good windup
>>
>> So one would assume, but a.) I had already paid for a package deal of
>> several items so why would the dealer then bother, as he had to use an
>> instrument to establish polarity? and b.) is there an expert out there who can comment?
God! you are serious! You really do think copper cable works better in one direction than the other. I really thought you were winding us up.
Edit, mention of the polarity tester make me think you are getting stuff confused. You do need to keep polarity the same from amp to speaker, but thats just a matter of +ve to +ve,
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 10:04
|
>>>You really do think copper cable works better in one direction than the other.
Stop yapping. From a hi-fi dealer (not the one who sold me the cables in 1986):
"Most speaker cables are directional. It is to do with the way the cable was manufactured, the orientation of the copper crystals being drawn.
The audible difference may be subtle but it's always worth ensuring that both speaker cables are the correct way round. Most cables have writing or direction indicators on the insulation to assist with this."
As Balzac put it,
"Now do you understand? How many words does it require to burst open the lid of your understanding?"
|
Crikey, ambo, you're brave!
Even I, the mildest of the mild, think that is a Load of Old Baloney, to be honest.
In the nicest possible way of course.
|
>> As Balzac put it,
>>
>> "Now do you understand? How many words does it require to burst open the lid
>> of your understanding?"
Are you working at being an insufferable ignorant prick or is it natural? I can't be bothered to deflect you from your path of stupidity and gullibility
Go study some electrical physics you d********.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 31 Oct 13 at 14:08
|
Zero, I don't think you've emphasised the point enough.
Let's sell him some Redex too. And maybe some tulips.
|
Edit
I apologise for such a rude out burst. Not that I don't believe it was justified or warranted, but it may upset the sensibilities of some of our viewers.
I would however be delighted if you could point me to the "polarity tester " that can reveal the "direction of the drawn crystals" from its electrical properties.
|
|
I hope you have properly polarised directional cables between the socket and the amplifier too. Almost more important than between the speaker and the amp.
|
|
you need to buy a properly polarised fuse for the plug as well.
|
I take it all back. I've just found this article from a Hifi shop. Apparently the electrons go in both directions?
www.eastwoodhifi.com.au/tweaks.htm
|
what a terribly sensible article on speakers cables that is.
Ambo wont believe a word of it.
|
Well, well, well Zero and Mapmaker, the car4play double act:)
Love it!
Pat
|
>> Well, well, well Zero and Mapmaker, the car4play double act:)
>>
>> Love it!
>>
>> Pat
None of your old pony now Pat, the only cable you know about is 24 volt lorry jump cables.
|
But what about the bit at the end where he says the more expensive "fibre optic" cables sound better than the cheap ones? How does that work?
"For digital connections I prefer fibre optics, not because it sounds any better (there's no great difference) but simply because it makes a better connection. The cheap $20 fibre optics cables are OK but the $50 - $100 cables seem to offer more depth and definition - certainly worthwhile for better systems."
|
didn't get that far, but I guess I have some sympathy with better quality fibre cable, not the cable itself but the quality of the ends. Being digital, poor connection means more error correction.
Not prepared or equipped enough to delve into how error correction could or might effect the DACs and how that might sound.
|
>Not prepared or equipped enough to delve into how error correction could or might
>effect the DACs and how that might sound.
From memory, digital audio only has single parity bits so the receiver knows there's an error but can't do anything about it. It can't correct it. There's also no flow control or retransmission facility in the protocol so the end result is that corrupt data is either discarded or the DAC makes an 'intelligent' guess at what the data should have been.
The clock rate is also too slow to make retransmission feasible.
It needs a new, higher speed, more sophisticated protocol.
Last edited by: Kevin on Thu 31 Oct 13 at 20:36
|
|
A reasoned response, as I would expect, but I object to the word ignorant.
|
>>You really do think copper cable works better in one direction than the other.
Isn't the feed to a speaker sinusoidal, therefore AC? You certainly need to ensure they're both connected the same, so one isn't 'pushing' while the other's 'pulling'.
|
Oh dear... it's a slipperly slope and one I've been sliding down (sideways) for decades. Thankfully Mrs F understands!
Your Technics record deck is a great start. I have the Sl-7 which is a similar concept but a few steps up the range. The only upgrade I would think of there for you is a new stylus as the difference with the OMP5/10/20 etc range was the stylus. So you can get a 10 or 20 stylus (I have the 20) and pop it onto your existing cartridge... only worth it if you get a genuine Ortofon stylus not a no-name.
Marantz made some great CD players in that era and again it might be no upgrade is needed... what's the model no?
Arcam Alpha 1 amp is physically neat and has quite a gentle refined sound but is low powered and will not give you the slam or excitement of a better quality higher powered amp. Also it could be marginal to drive replacement speakers if you upgraded.
I've never been a fan of Wharfedale Diamond speakers. No decent bass and they were a real budget speaker at the time. Much better out there.
So if it were me...
I'd consider the cartridge change but not essential.
Probably keep the CD player once we know the model.
Upgrade the amplifier to something that costs around £100 on Ebay with 50-60wpc (think yours is 35wpc) and a good reputation for sound. Perhaps an Arcam Alpha 8 like this...
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Arcam-Alpha-8-Phono-Integrated-Amplifier-/171096783543
Other amps that come to mind with a good reputation are... Audiolab 8000, Cyrus 2 or 3, Marantz PM-66SE, Sony TA-F448E, Technics SU-A800 Mk.2.
You should get £20+ back for the old amp.
Swap the speakers. I have an an idea of some where you can't go wrong... Mission 780SE like these...
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mission-780se-Main-Stereo-Speakers-/330978300553 .
Stupidly cheap for a 5 star reviewed £250 speaker in their day. If you want better their bigger brothers the 751 produce a similar character but just better all round...
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AWESOME-Mission-751-Freedom-speakers-with-gold-plated-terminal-links-/400585107662
You should get back £20-£25 for your Diamonds.
This is all assuming you wanted a worthwhile upgrade at modest cost for a bit of fun... obviously the sky's the limit but it is very much a case of diminishing returns over a certain point.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 09:39
|
The real bargains in the used HIFI world are the ones that were never raved about. Arcam amps still fetch a premium and not all of them were that good, the lower end ones being not powerful enough. My Yamaha amp I paid £30 for was a real bargain. It was always a budget amp but has 60wpc and is a very enjoyable listen. Maybe not audiophile as such but the way I have positioned my speakers in my workshop means I get a very good soundstage.
Positioning is just as important as the kit as the room acoustics will pay a big part of the overall sound.
|
That's really useful, guys, thanks. Something to chew over.
I'll look in more detail at model numbers tonight, FL, and see what's what. Some good pointers there though, ta muchly.
One more question for the panel -
Is it the case that a 2013 amp would be "optimised", if you like, in such a way as to play nasty modern no dynamic range compressed digital stuff beautifully but not hack old vinyl so well, or is that just what I imagine it would be like? And if that is so, what's the era when that started happening?
|
Modern amps do sound a bit more dynamic in my experience, BUT they have brand new capacitors and everything else. Older vintage amps often need recapped etc. That said my Yamaha has a brighter sound than my Marantz but they were aimed at different markets. The built quality of my Marantz (2012 vintage) is a lot better than the 2000 Marantz we have downstairs.
The main issue with modern kit is that HIFI separates are no longer that popular so newer stuff is made made in the high quantities it used to be pushing up prices. I remember when Richersounds sold nothing but separates for example, now it is just like walking into Dixons minus the computers and cameras.
|
Before anyone starts babbling on about how stellar certain kit is, and how cables made from ectoplasm are the bees knees, you need to appreciate how badly your hearing has deteriorated.
Almost everyone of my generation, and yours I guess, has battered their eardrums to death with pop and rock music played at too high a level through headphones.
When you start muttering about 20khz upper frequency range of your speakers, try this
www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/can-you-hear-this-hearing-test/
How high does your hearing actually go.
and this for the low
www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
mine craps out totally at 12khz.
So the lesson hear? (pedants that a PUN) Buy what sounds best to you. Because you are different from him.
|
Funnily enough, I was trying to play some vinyl for the first time in years, and the turntable wouldn't work.
The stack is probably 30 years old, and since I'm at work, I can't even remember the maker. It's only a run of the mill thing, but the radio and CD player are adequate for us.
Any advice on a reasonable deck - I'm way away from what's good or bad these days.
Edit: I remembered, it's a Kenwood (FWIW)
Last edited by: neiltoo on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 10:30
|
|
Well you could do worse than buy the same one as Crankcase... £50 on Ebay.
|
|
Best 'cheap' new decks are the Project Debuts, however they are not really cheap any more at around £200 :(.
|
|
Just turn the volume up init.
|
Nice hearing links.
High - 8kHz is all, can't hear the 10kHz.
Low - can get down, with suitable speaker volume, all the way to 30Hz.
|
>> Nice hearing links.
>>
>> High - 8kHz is all, can't hear the 10kHz.
Can laptop/PC speakers can output frequencies that high? No idea what the typical range is.
Last edited by: Focusless on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 12:37
|
Interesting thought, but I just looked up the ones on my desk and some highly reliable bloke off of the internet says:
Frequency response: 100 Hz - 20 kHz
|
>> >> Nice hearing links.
>> >>
>> >> High - 8kHz is all, can't hear the 10kHz.
>>
>> Can laptop/PC speakers can output frequencies that high? No idea what the typical range is.
Ideally you should use closed ear headphones, but even in ear earphones do 18khz with ease.
Getting low response (below 30 hhz) is the hard part.
|
30Hz low and 13kHz for me.
>>>Rattle said... The real bargains in the used HIFI world are the ones that were never raved about.
Well to a point. There are some gems that surprise but there is also a huge amount of dross in that unknown gear. So many of the unknown 70/80/90s lower-mid priced Jap amps are quite uninteresting, muffled, over bassy or over shrill. At least with the well thought of stuff you kind of know where it sits in the scheme of things because it's character is written about all over the net.
>>>Is it the case that a 2013 amp would be "optimised", if you like, in such a way as to play nasty modern no dynamic range compressed digital stuff beautifully but not hack old vinyl so well...
There are two aspects to this... at the music production stage where the sound might be biased towards small earphones, IPod docks and the like... and then with digital memory how much is thrown away for smaller file sizes. By and large many CDs are OK but there are a few shockers I have which sound dreadful on proper hifi.
So there is no reason why a decent 2013 hi-fi amp should sound bad on vinyl... but from the feeling you give in the first post a new amp wouldn't get anywhere near value for you... £500 or more would be needed to match a £100 used Ebay purchase.
|
Are you allowing for the fact these older amps may not sound their best though due to the need for a recap?
That said for vinyl I use my Rotel BC870bx which I think is late 80's to early 90's and it sounds simply stunning with my HD25s. I also use it as a control amp for my M Audio sound card.
Amazing bit of kit I paid £15 for it, as I needed more input selectors and this guy I knew of a HIFI forum suggested his old pre amp in the loft would do the trick. Ten years later I am still using it.
I think Jap stuff and British stuff had different sounds too. The British stuff has a more relaxed and warm sound, where the Jap stuff sounds a bit brighter with classical music I can see the Jap stuff might sound a bit shrill and tinny. There isn't the warmth in the sound to offer a high ''resolution'. For my workshop though the Yamaha late 90's example is more than fine.
I always think the NAD 3020 is very over rated, for £30-£40 maybe but not the silly money these go for now.
Never been that impressed with the sound of the budget Sony stuff, always sounded flat to me.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 13:52
|
>>>Are you allowing for the fact these older amps may not sound their best though due to the need for a recap?
No not really a factor for me. I'm comparing amps of all types from late 60s on so they all have an equal chance of being a bit below par.... not comparing new with old.
>>>I think Jap stuff and British stuff had different sounds too. The British stuff has a more relaxed and warm sound, where the Jap stuff sounds a bit brighter...
It was often said years ago but not sure it is true now. In my youth folks had nice warm sounding systems with Quad and 12" british speakers then the Japanese came along in the 60/70s with transistor amps and often smaller speakers so that combination was a lot less warm and more edgy.
Recently I had a Mission Cyrus amp which is known for being clean... the kind way of saying shrill to those that don't like that character. I also currently have a mid 90s high grade Sony which is if anything a little full in the bass.... so it comes down to individual amps really.
>>>I always think the NAD 3020 is very over rated, for £30-£40 maybe but not the silly money these go for now.
>>>Never been that impressed with the sound of the budget Sony stuff, always sounded flat to me.
Agreed... never really got the 3020 obsession and one of the nastiest amps I've heard was a early 80s 25wpc Sony.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 14:16
|
|
I'm not a Hi Fi buff by any means, but I have a Hitachi tuner FT-MD5500, Hitachi HA-12 amp, Teac P1160D CD and a Mitsubishi DP 630 turntable. I'm happy with it but would those in the know consider it quality kit or just a Universal Japanese Music System?
|
Well in truth it's budget really. I sold a HA-12 amp earlier this year from a bootful of old hifi gear I happened across.
The turntable is the most interesting, it's a little known make/model but across the board values of nice looking Japanese 70/80s turntables are on the up. I would far prefer it to the flavour of the month £200 budget new turntables.
I assume it's this one?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkc3gFs1Xqw
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 15:12
|
>>
>> I assume it's this one?
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkc3gFs1Xqw
>>
That's the one, Fen.
It belonged to Mrs RR's father and he departed us in '82, so I'd guess 1970s?
|
|
Yes I guess mid to late 70s but don't know... I will admit I had to look it up for an image... never seen one.
|
If you like films (or TV with a useful soundtrack) and would like to use the hi fi system as a base for surround sound now could be a good time to make the necessary upgrades.
|
|
I still have an original Pioneer A-400 amplifier in its box in the loft. Might have to dig it out and see if it still works.
|
>> If you like films... now could be a good
>> time to make the necessary upgrades.
Not sure if that was aimed at me, GB, but in case it was - this hifi system is in a separate room from the TV.
The Panasonic TV is run through a Yamaha AV amp into a Bose sub and Bose speakers in a 5.1 arrangement - it all sounds really very good, and we run the Apple TV, the DVD player and the PS3 through it as well as occasion demands.
Visitors comment on its quality spontaneously, which is possibly a good sign, or more likely that at home they just turn on their TV and put up with manky sound that comes out of it. Indeed, if we bypass the amp and just listen to our TV it's unbelievably yukky. That's not surprising of course - no TV is going to have speakers to compare with separates.
It's always seemed to me that separating the sound from a TV is one of those hifi voodoo things that actually cannot go wrong - it's just guaranteed to sound better.
Edit: I should add that Mrs C inevitably hates the separates, and would go back to "just the TV" like a shot, accepting that the sound would be horrid. I don't know if it's a girl thing but she really really hates "bits of kit and wires everywhere". I can understand that but we've not yet come to blows over it.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 16:14
|
Man after me own heart there CC.
Main television's own sound don't think we've ever heard.
Reminds me, must get me finger out and connect the spare PC to the main TV tomorrow whilst i'm off.
|
We've not really sorted TV sound since we moved in 18mths ago. It is plugged into the hi-fi but the TV sits a yard to the right of the right speaker so sounds come from the wrong place.
I'm OK for music like that but mostly for normal TV we just have the iffy TV sound.
Can't move the TV in between the speakers and don't really want the clutter of a seperate system on the TV... the speakers being the main issue... but that's what we may end up with.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 30 Oct 13 at 16:54
|
>> Can't move the TV in between the speakers and don't really want the clutter of
>> a seperate system on the TV... the speakers being the main issue... but that's what
>> we may end up with.
For what it's worth we use the Bose Acoustimass speakers as the fronts for the tv, and they are titchy as you like. About the size of a newborn kitten. Pleasingly unobtrusive but pack a decent punch for films.
|
So much for my memory. Now I'm in a position to look at the kit it's
Marantz model number is CD-52
Amp turns out to say Arcam Alpha II
Speakers turn out to be Wharfdale "model no 504"
|
I got a hifi system, its consists of nankamichi dr3 cassette deck, roksan kandy L3 cd player and roksan kandy L3 amp, speakers are kef r700, Cables are qed anniversary speaker cable, they a bit bright for me, interconnect are chord vee 3 very detailed,
System is highly revealing, of bad records, but sounds superb, with the warmth and detailed highs I get.
Best to demo at the dealers they can let you borrow the kit and try at home.
used to have a Marantz amp, a pm66se, nice warm amp but no power tend to get shrill when you crank it up, moving on to the kandy, big jump in soundstage detailing, next step is to move on to the roksan Caspian m2 once I either part exchange the amp and cd combo or sell them
|
|
Cassettes? Blimey, well it's a good 'un and a lovely thing to own I should think. Liking a bit of Roksan, highly regarded. I replaced a Linn LP12 with a Xerxes deck for about 20 years and loved it. I'm a Naim boy at heart I'm afraid. (a source of much argument on Audiofool websites) Audiolab cdq and squeezebox touch at the front, Nait Xs with hicap and Neat motive 3's. Lush. I put the squeezebox through the cdq's inner DAC. Incidentally, for those dissuaded that equipment picks up vibration, Naim now mount all the internals on a 'floating' basis for this reason. I've no idea whether it's carp or not, and care little, I just like my music and I like it the way my rig plays it.
|
Nice systems!
The Neat 3's are very similar in concept to the ProAc Tablette range, I've owned several Tablettes over the years and will no doubt return to them again. Don't you feel the need for a sub though to get that deep down bass?
Last year I very nearly clicked to buy a well priced used Roksan amp but didn't and regretted it as I'd like to try one sometime.
Re your updated equipment model numbers Crankcase...
For what you seem to want, and with the resistance of er indoors, I'd definately keep the record deck and CD player. If you wanted to do just one more thing I'd upgrade the speakers to either of the ones mentioned but the 780SE may be more in keeping with your amp. It's going to cost less than £50.
If you were prepared to make two changes I'd get a new amplifier first along the lines of the ones mentioned. There are others but going to one of the "unknowns" as Rattle mentions will only give about a 1 in 20 chance of getting the best for your money.... and you could end up with more power and a inferior sound. Amp upgrade would cost under £100.
If you take the second route once you know how the upgraded amp sounds then move onto speakers. I never make two changes at a time because you can't be sure which item has made any improvement... or taken the sound away from what you want.
|
Thanks FL. I was thinking about the amp last night actually. I made a change in the system - I put in some "uprated" speaker cable that was a bit chunkier, just to see. At first I thought it made no odds at all, which I was mostly expecting, but then I started to think it had all got a bit "muddier" if you see what I mean. I'm not sure if that was psychological, but I'm minded to swap back tonight and see if I'm making it up.
But if it is actually "muddier" I'm wondering whether a more powerful Arcam (I like the tonal quality of it) might be the way to go, as you say. Mine is a mere 35 watts I discover. Then speakers.
I suspect this is the very edge of the foolish slope and I'm tottering....thusly:
tinyurl.com/ca8zsx
|
>> chunkier, just to see. At first I thought it made no odds at all, which
>> I was mostly expecting, but then I started to think it had all got a
>> bit "muddier" if you see what I mean. I'm not sure if that was psychological,
>> but I'm minded to swap back tonight and see if I'm making it up.
And I am outa here, - the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
|
>>>the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
Well hardly. Many people say how well their car goes after a service when in truth there is nothing done that would make a difference... same with hifi... perception is a legitimate part of the experience.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 31 Oct 13 at 09:43
|
>> And I am outa here, - the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
>>
Well, I was going to reply in some sane manner, but as you're outta here you're not going to read it...
Oh well, here's my tuppence worth. Seems to me fannying about with cables is probably snake oil. But of course there's a zillion people who say it isn't. Given that I had the cable lying about (we used it for the other system with the TV), and given that the ultimate arbiter is my ears, it cost nothing more than a few minutes to swap in the cable, have a go, then swap back and see if I think there's any difference.
|
>>And I am outa here, - the lunatics have taken over the asylum<<
That's why I never went in.
I used to have digs in the pub a couple of doors along the road from the late Julian Vereker (Mr Naim). Some of his employees used to drink there. Being a Quad man myself, it used to make for some interesting evenings in the bar. And it cured me of hi-fi debate forever.
Incidentally, years ago I went to see the Quad main dealer (see my bit the other day on the reproducing 78s thread) to ask what I ought to do about the fact that one of the big electrolytic caps in my 303 power amp was dripping slightly (they had already been replaced long before). He said 'use it turned upside down'. He was right - end of problem.
|
|
Quad here too: 34 and 405:2. Arcam CD player & old STD, suspended, turntable with Rega arm. LS3/5A speakers, from new. Always wanted the Quad electrostatics, but space considerations (and cash) have stymied that. Have listened to a few systems: none have been noticeably better, even on home demonstration for a few days. SWMBO has better/better trained hearing (piano player at one time) and she is indifferent to all "upgrades" except an Audiolab amp which she detested. Couldn't stay in the room. Saved an awful lot by sticking with the Quads, which can still be serviced. Had to have them looked at twice since 1984:) Shocking.
|
...except an Audiolab amp which she detested.
Woohoo! So I'm not alone. Never understood the fuss in the 90s about the 8000 range - they never sounded better than dull to me, and sometimes truly awful.
I grew up with Quads, including Electrostatics. Beautiful for chamber music, where the point-source property comes into its own, but woefully short of guts and rhythm for anything more visceral. Never coveted them for my own system, even if they'd have fitted the room.
Dynaudio, for me, is the speaker maker that best combines neutrality, imaging, musicality and oomph. They like power, though - replacing my 60W Arcam with a 400W MF was a good move.
|
>>>Dynaudio
Agreed... only had one pair but loved the character. At the time our hi-fi was in a tiny room and they didn't sound right with their rear port until pulled too far out into the room to be practical.... but they are another make I will revist one day.
>>> ...except an Audiolab amp which she detested
I preferred the Cyrus II combo when those two makes were head to head but I don't detest the 8000.
|
>> ...except an Audiolab amp which she detested.
>>
>> Woohoo! So I'm not alone. Never understood the fuss in the 90s about the 8000
>> range - they never sounded better than dull to me, and sometimes truly awful.
I worked for a hi-fi retailer for several years in the mid-90s.
We could never work out whether Audiolab stuff was completely transparent, or grey and boring. Certainly the amps never really added or detracted anything to the system, which I suppose technically is what an amplifier should do. People used to punchy, musical amps such as Naim used to walk out of dems in horror, but others really appreciated the fact that it simply took on the character of the rest of the system without changing anything. They were fantastic amps for comparing source components because they didn't get in the way.
What Audiolab stuff always was, was beautifully made. Amazing attention to detail too. I remember the 8000T tuner and the 8000 CD CD player had tungsten filament bulbs to illuminate their displays, as they produced significantly less noise interference than LEDs. To increase bulb life, a "soft start" system was devised which meant the bulbs glowed gently into life at power-on. Beautifully engineered kit.
We sold 10 or so bits of Audiolab kit a month on average, and we never had a single unit come back faulty. The only one we ever had to send for service was a 3yr old power amp that had had the speakers it was attached to stolen in a burglary. When the thieves unplugged the banana plugs from the speakers and discarded the cable on the floor, the two cables were left shorted out. The owner found it next morning with its protection system constantly cycling. Sent it away for service and it was checked and given a clean bill of health.
|
Quad here to. But older 33 -303. Shame that I did not spend the same money on 2nd hand valve kit when I bought them (new). But I could still get more than I paid:) One noisy resistor changed in the preamp about 20 yrs ago.
I have always regarded Bose as style over substance - although they do sound good in demos, but the pricing gurus must have mentored the Apple marketeers. I sat down in one of the large show demos (always good to rest the feet at an exhibition), and ended up talking to the demonstrator. He was a sales agent (and a geeky tech) who conceded that he would not give the stuff house room, although he found them easy to sell at inflated prices.
|
>>Always wanted the Quad electrostatics, but space considerations (and cash) have stymied that<<
I have an excellent pair in the attic here, gathering dust, about which I feel very guilty.
Incidentally, re the catfight further up this thread, Peter Walker (Mr Quad) said decades ago that you can use all the snake oil you like, but electrons will still behave like electrons.
|
Of course all amps sound different they all have different tonal qualities even with the tone controls turned off. Each brand is engineered to offer their 'house' sound.
Fenlander have you ever been caught out on Ebay by buying something which turned out to be faulty?
|
>>Fenlander have you ever been caught out on Ebay by buying something which turned out to be faulty?
Which triggers the thought that...
You win an auction by paying more than anyone else was prepared to pay for a thing that the owner didn't think was worth hanging on to.
Which behoves you to understand why you paid that amount and what you know that the other does not.
|
>> You win an auction by paying more than anyone else was prepared to pay for
>> a thing that the owner didn't think was worth hanging on to.
>>
>> Which behoves you to understand why you paid that amount and what you know that
>> the other does not.
Never bought a second-hand car, NF2? Or a second-hand house?
|
Of course I have, and I've understood why those things are worth what I paid to me, where perhaps they weren't to others.
My point was not that it was wrong to pay, simply that one should understand why one pays before one actually does.
|
>>>Fenlander have you ever been caught out on Ebay by buying something which turned out to be faulty?
I've been lucky with hifi and in many many deals can't think of anything.
I have bought two faulty cameras this year and returned for refund... not as described. One was to a real gent who refunded everything inc postage. The other was less of a gent and it ended up costing me the postage.... nothing in the scheme of things really.
No FM2R not sure what you're getting at re "simply that one should understand why one pays before one actually does." and Ebay. Surely that relates to every single thing we buy... or at it least should.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 31 Oct 13 at 21:08
|
>>No FM2R not sure what you're getting at
Not much really, just that any old rubbish can be sold on EBay and one needs to understand why you are valuing it. And as you say, that should apply to everything.
I find people often pay loads too much for something on eBay believing that they're getting a bargain.
|
>>>I find people often pay loads too much for something on eBay believing that they're getting a bargain.
Can be true. The other aspect, and perhaps closely associated, is that Ebay has almost created a market at firm prices for some items which went unloved 10yrs ago because there was nowhere to sell them. And being such a huge marketplace with a constant stream of buyers competition between buyers can be fierce.
It is usually my first port of call to buy almost anything, from a pack of 20 AA batteries to a galvanised farm water trough to use as a planter. To me it's like a buying dashboard. I understand how it works and it's so easy to use.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 31 Oct 13 at 22:00
|
Economic theory has for years pointed out that perfect visibility is required for a true supply & demand driven market place.
The internet in general and Ebay in particular are driving us closer than the world has ever been before.
|
|
I find ebay not cheap, but it is the place where you can find almost anything. I often look there for solutions to problem. AKA "I wonder if someone makes a - "
|
|
Yes and it makes a very fast and informative valuation tool for older items of all types.
|
There are two markets going on through eBay.
1. People clearing out their rubbish, listed with a low start price. Often poorly described, without shipping options. That way bargains will arise, if you're prepared to wait until it turns up, rather than needing it now. Sometimes of course these items go well beyond bargain price, but eventually you'll probably get what you want cheaply.
2. Trade sellers with items listed at a relatively high/sensible price.
And there's a third section, which isn't a market.
3. People clearing out their rubbish expecting to get the prices that trade sellers - who often have the items on permanent listing until sold - get, and wonder why they don't.
I love ebay, and have both bought and sold on it to great effect. I find it utterly fascinating.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 1 Nov 13 at 10:04
|
>> There are two markets going on through eBay.
>>
>> 1. People clearing out their rubbish,
Northants have a couple of sites through which they clear usable stuff that's been left at their tips. We lent looking for a Uni bike for The Lad but had a bit of a browse too.
The warehouse site had several shelves of assorted 'Hi-Fi' stuff. While some is anything but Hi (eg Dixon's own brand radio/tape players) there was also quite a bit of Marantz, Technics and Yamaha etc kit.
Although warranted as 'working' they're obviously a gamble but at prices in the £20 range a punt worth taking IMO.
|
>>>3. People clearing out their rubbish expecting to get the prices that trade sellers - who often have the items on permanent listing until sold - get, and wonder why they don't.
That's very true... if I want a sale at the upper regions of a more expensive items price band then I use a 30 day buy it now with no offer facility. It can be totally dead for 20 days then you log on one morning to see the sale and paypal payment mails in your inbox.
>>>Often poorly described, without shipping options. That way bargains will arise.
Yes these are often the absolute steals. I search most days in several categories for such items within a 10-20ml radius. You can often double your money by selling on such things with proper descriptions/images and offering postage if they turn out to be not what you want.
Some sellers kill their listings wih excessive postage costs. You can send a large heavy parcel with UPS for £10 yet folks still ask for £25-£30 for some items like a boxed smallish pair of standmount speakers.
|
A slope perhaps but hardly foolish... at this level the costs are so low nothing to loose really.
I've been swapping hi-fi for years on Ebay and actually all my gear stands very little as I've mostly sold for more than I paid.
My way is to look at an item like the 780SE speakers where the sold prices of the last 8 on Ebay have been from £30-£80. As there is no rush I look over a few weeks and pick on a pair to buy near the lower amount. The ultimate is to find a collection only pair quite near me as it holds the price down. Then when I want to change I make sure they look immaculate, photograph wel, describe with enthusiasm and always offer postage to sell nearer the top price.
If I don't like something I usually move it on in a couple of weeks and repeat.
|
|
No, definitely don't feel the need for a sub. The little Neats are noted for their bass, which is quite remarkable for a small box but then they are ported. The hicap made a substantial difference to the bass as well. I was sceptical about adding the PSU but it came along cheaply and would have been easily sold, but it's a stayer. I'm definitely very sceptical indeed about cables but some amps use them as a part of the design. I think they have a capacitance rating (something like that) and some older amps were known to go a bit awol with the wrong cable. That's a slightly different issue to them sounding different I think. As I say, very sceptical indeed but if someone were to demo the difference then that would be different. There are those that insist that amps don't sound any different, if they're well designed. I'd argue this one until I'm out of breath...
|
I have just ordered a Samsung HWF350 soundbar to go with our Samsung flat screen TV.
Had a good deal at Tesco Direct for £120.00. (Amazon £134). Used Tesco "double up" vouchers for a further discount of £21, so a net £99.00.
I don't want and could not appreciate, hi-fi, these days, so a modest betterment of TV sound should suffice.
An early Xmas/birthday/services rendered pressie from my daughter & family. :-)
|
Sound-bar in and working.
A definite help for me ,but SWMBO is complaining it's (a) too "fiddly" i.e. too many options and (b) too "bassy & thumping". Down with the sub-woofer setting it is!
She hates anything to change - altering anything on her laptop is tantamount to a death sentence. :-)
|
>>>There are those that insist that amps don't sound any different, if they're well designed. I'd argue this one until I'm out of breath...
Yes I just regard it as fact having home auditioned several amps in a short period many times over the decades. When I buy a new one I always keep the old one until happy which allows direct comparison.
Back in the 80s / 90s all the speaker demos at our local dealer were using a Linn deck and Naim amplification in a quite highly damped room. I always insisted on making a final decision at home as I was using a similar deck, lesser amp and had a more lively room.
|
>>>just ordered a Samsung HWF350 soundbar to go with our Samsung flat screen TV.
>>>we use the Bose Acoustimass speakers as the fronts for the tv...
Yes must look into this more. We have room for a sub, the soundbar would look OK and perhaps so would two small speakers... but 5:1 not needed and impractical in our room layout.
|
If you fancy a sub FL, these gems don't come up very often.
tinyurl.com/nwj4tm3
Once you've had a good sub (not as i've gone quite to those lengths yet) it can be quite addictive, if our current one died tonight i'd be tempted.
|
Well I do run a sub with the hi-fi some of the sime. But I like a sub you can't hear... and I think you'd hear that.
I did run a second hi-fi system a few years back that has a seperate 150w power amp for each left/right channel and a 150w power amp into a sub with a 15" Celestion speaker. That would move some air.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 1 Nov 13 at 00:28
|
|
Is this super duper speaker cable any better than the 1.5mm copper cable used for mains lighting, or 2.5mm cable used for mains sockets?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 1 Nov 13 at 08:48
|
Well the decent hi-fi cable is often multi strand so each note or instrument can have its own wire and that must mean the sound is more clearly defined surely?
Mains cable does look a bit ghastly running to speakers too.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 1 Nov 13 at 09:42
|
|
2.5mm mains cable makes perfectly decent speaker cable. Many hi-fi buffs swear by it. Some very expensive speaker cable is solid cored.
Last edited by: DP on Fri 1 Nov 13 at 09:41
|
|
pretty unattractive and not very flexible, but ideal for pre wiring behind plaster.
|
Thanks to this thread, I am now watching several pairs of speakers on eBay.
|
|
I tried mains cable but the results were rather harsh. Perhaps I got the directionality wrong.
|
>>Shows the importance of this topic. Note DIRECTIONAL on the cables.<<
The direction is important because the plugs (and sockets) are 'tapered' so they fit tightly - if the taper is wrong (ie large to smal) the electrons are squeezed together and come out faster. With consequent effect on the tonal quality. Compare it to a hose pipe with an adjustable spray adaptor on the end.
Last edited by: sherlock1947 on Fri 1 Nov 13 at 12:25
|
|
Sherlock you've missed the point. The sound has to go to the speakers. If the sound goes in the opposite direction they become a microphone. Obvious really.
|
|
Electrons don't flow anywhere in an AC current. They "jiggle". The flow of current and the mean position of electrons are two different things.
|
I think Sherlock is right.
Its similar to data cables; If you have the taper the wrong way then whilst the 0s still slide through, if the 1s get sideways they get jammed.
That's why it often speeds up a computer by repeatedly hitting it to knock the jammed 1s loose.
|
Course, if you get the speaker cables back to front you'll soon know about it. You can only ever play One Direction.
|
I have just had a flash of brilliant insight as to why ' proper' (6mm) jack plugs always sound better than 3.5mm plugs. The taper in the nose is more carefully machined to to a sinusoidal shape. - the old brass ones are even better -carefully hand machined, you can see the 'turning' marks.
The problem is when they come to to stereo the alt channel does not have the constriction, hence an inbalance of tonal quality. probably better to use 2 mono connections.
I am enjoying this too much, perhaps I should apply to be a copy writer for Morrow audio :)
Last edited by: sherlock1947 on Fri 1 Nov 13 at 15:40
|
What I hadn't realised is how important it is to break in new speaker cables. Apparently they need 500 hours of playing before they work properly. A bit like running in a new car.
www.morrowaudio.com/cablebreakin.htm
|
Oh my giddy aunt, MM.
I've seen some claims, but that's astonishing. I think the most extreme claim on that page though is unintentional: "Whitney Houston and Karen Carpenter came to life."
|
>> Oh my giddy aunt, MM.
It's awesome. I've already been on live chat to ask what the science is. He said 'We don't know, but they're definitely difficult between 50 and 100 hours.'
My colleague with whom I share an office was looking at me with astonishment as I gasped on reading that article.
|
>> www.morrowaudio.com/cablebreakin.htm
The "difficult stage" of the breakin, where the cables might be hard to listen to is between 50 to 100 hours. There can be brief periods however past this point. If you have an evening where they are hard to listen to, do not fret, this will quickly go away. All should be well the next day. When full breakin is reached, there will be no more changes with the sound.
They do a live chat if anyone's bored...
|
>Shows the importance of this topic. Note DIRECTIONAL on the cables.
Ditto:
tinyurl.com/o5djewp
|
>>> tinyurl.com/o5djewp
Hadn't seen that before... great link.
|
|
Solid core cable usually gives a "brighter" sound than multi-strand.
|
This has gone on so far, that it's difficult to tell the good information from the rocking horse droppings!
8o)
|
>> This has gone on so far, that it's difficult to tell the good information from
>> the rocking horse droppings!
>>
>> 8o)
>>
I have it sussed, all you need is some copper wire a bit thicker than bell wire. Buy anything else and you have more money than sense.
|
|
Alternatively, go and listen to some live music :)
|
My pal always used to say the best way to improve your hi-fi equipment was to buy a bottle of Scotch and drink at least some of it during every listening session.
Makes sense of some of the cobblers above.
|
>> Alternatively, go and listen to some live music :)
Not if it's amplified, as you've got the same worries about running in your speaker cables.
And if you go to listen to an orchestra, it's a real worry that some of the players are further away from you than others; it can sound quite fuzzy sometimes.
|
People will pay small fortunes for the privelidge of the right name (someone elses) emblazoned on their golf clubs/trainers/T shirt/sunglasses, those same people and their fiends can discern the difference a back to front multi cored cable .3mm smaller sounds like compared to the Gucci Perfection range at £50 a metre.
A fool and his money.
I heard summat on the radio t'other day about some golfer or other having got himself a sponsorship deal from a well known company, to the tune of around $30k a week (or was it a day) for the next ten years...someones got to be footing that nice little earner, have an inkling now where they might be found.
|
>> This has gone on so far, that it's difficult to tell the good information from
>> the rocking horse droppings!
>>
>> 8o)
>>
Here's some stuff to avoid :-)
boingboing.net/2005/11/07/astronomically-overp.html
485 bucks for a pine knob! - stop tittering at the back
|
I'm totally lost, it's beyond me....
I use this forum to learn about all sorts of things and I'm really not sure who is serious and who isn't.
I was going to ask at work today if anyone knew if speaker wire was directional or not.
Then I thought I might live to regret it, so after dealing with the paranoia of lorry drivers having forward facing cameras fitted in all vehicles last weekend, I'll believe anything.
Pat, do they.....?
Yes the will turn around and watch you get undressed for bed at night
Yes, they do record sound and will trip every time you fart.
No, they do still record with the ignition off.
Revenge is sweet!
Pat
|
>> Pat, do they.....?
>> Yes they will turn around and watch you get undressed for bed at night
>> Yes, they do record sound and will trip every time you fart.
>> No, they do still record with the ignition off.
>>
>> Revenge is sweet!
>>
>> Pat
>>
Many a true word spoken in...........:-)
In the USA the professional quality insurance cameras record in both directions.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 1 Nov 13 at 19:23
|
>>I was going to ask at work today if anyone knew if speaker wire was directional or not.
You could ask the Customer Relations Manager of Naim. He emailed me today to say that "All cables are directional".
|
|
Now you know why he is not the technical manager.
|
|
And why he almost certainly reports to the Sales organisation
|
>>Now you know why he is not the technical manager
Naim would run the risk of legal action of it were found to be misleading the public.
|
>> Naim would run the risk of legal action of it were found to be misleading
>> the public.
But they're not misleading the public. They're just telling it things that are unprovable or irrelevant.
Look at this glorious item (no price). www.naimaudio.com/hifi-products/pdt-type/power-line
You plug the power line into the ring main which is ordinary cabling, and 2.5mm cross-sectional area (20 amps). Why on earth the need for 4mm cabling?
How much should you worry about the cabling between the power station and the socket on the wall? Nuclear electricity is better than wind as it's more regular and so cleaner. But how do you ensure you get it?
I cannot even find speaker cable on the Naim website - as it's hidden under some obfuscating 'technical' name.
|
|
I have wired my speakers with 2.5mm 27 Amp mains cable and did not check which way round it was fitted. They seem to work OK, maybe it is bi-directional cable. :-)
|
Ahh it sounds OK... just OK?
You see of a proper cable they say... "The sound delivered was timed immaculately. This means not only that the hard-charging rhythms were punched out in all their glory, but also that the interplay between instruments was preserved and easy to appreciate. This cable majors on control, insight and agility. It'll help a system communicate the drive and enthusiasm of a recording – it’s all about communicating the drama and passion of music."
That's what we're looking for when electrons flow downhill!
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 4 Nov 13 at 17:23
|
>> That's what we're looking for when electrons flow downhill!
>>
>>
Ahhh, my cables are mainly horizontal, that must be the problem. Is there a preferred downward gradient similar to drain pipes?
As I have used submarine sonar systems that could hear a whale fart hundreds of miles away, OK will do for me. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 4 Nov 13 at 17:30
|
|
See my addition to the fixing a CD player thread. About the Denon super duper Ethernet cable that was $500.
|
The reviews on that cable are brilliant and sum it all up really.
On yes obviously gradual downhill or level is best ON. Think of the electrons as marbles and the speaker cable as waste pipe. It's all fine as the cable drops to the floor from the amplifier but when the cable rises up to stand mounted speakers all the electrons (marbles) are going to logjam at that bend and you will get a very muffled sound.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 4 Nov 13 at 18:03
|
|
Whatever you do, don't leave the amplifier switched on when the loudspeakers are disconnected, or you'll lose your marbles.
|
|
Ahh I've always read you should never power up an amp without speakers connected... now I know why!
|
Is that a similar reason as to why the ends of a fibre optic TOS cable have caps :-) So when one end is unplugged there's no danger of the laser destroying something when leaking out. Well the ones I had for connection from DVD player to Dolby Digital TV did.
And the gold plating on this optical TOS cable must make all the difference! ;-)
www.amazon.co.uk/XO-Resolution-Professional-Digital-Optical/dp/B003BLWI00/ref=tag_stp_s2_edpp_url
|
If OK will do, ON, then worry no more. But you don't need to get as hyperbolic as FL's example to understand that there's more to it than that.
The kit I have now has cost me several thousand pounds over about 25 years, and at each stage I've been broadly happy with the sound it made because I've taken the trouble - which never seems like trouble when I'm in the demo room of a good dealer, on a comfy sofa with a mug of tea in my hand - to choose the components carefully.
I started with an inherited B&O music centre, which had no speakers, so they were my first purchase. Nothing grand, on a student budget, but I was pleased with them. I bought the cheapest cable the shop would sell me, made a pair of stands for the speakers and I was away. When I had a proper income, I junked the B&O for a better turntable - the aforementioned LP12 because I heard it and had to have it - and bought the Arcam amp with what was left of my budget. I'd intended to buy a CD player too but had no money left.
If OK was OK, I could have stopped there. A school of hifi wisdom at the time held that you could play an LP12 through a ghetto blaster and you'd still have hifi, so I was already well up on that. But I kept on going to dealers and that convinced me there was more musical enjoyment to be had from my records than I was getting. But each time I've changed something, I've waited till I could afford a really big step up.
In fact my first step was the speaker cable. Replacing the cheap stuff from the shop with (still hardly pricy) Linn cable got rid of a lot of the congestion from loud passages where the thin cable couldn't carry enough current. That cable is still there, and I'm only now beginning to think of replacing it.
Since then, I've replaced the speaker stands, then the speakers themselves, then - after ten years without changing a thing - the amplifier and, last year, the main equipment stand. One change per component; no 'serial upgrades', which seem to be the route to constant dissatisfaction. But each change has seen a big step up in quality and enjoyment. And once you suspect how much more music is still in there waiting to be discovered, it's tempting to keep on digging for it.
Once I've seen what better speaker cable can do I may think about improving or replacing the CD player I eventually bought in 1994; or maybe CDs are already passé, we'll see.
But either way, if you care about your music, OK is only the beginning.
|
The speaker cable discussion isn't that dissimilar to wine discussions really. One person will take the view that a box of Morrison's table white is perfectly fine, whilst another insists that the nine thousand pound bottle that gives a bouquet of slightly burnt petrol and I'm getting, ooh, an aftertaste of buttered concrete is what makes the wine.
Everyone has a place on the continuum where they are happy.
Of course, that applies to almost everything in life and we'd all be a lot more cheerful if we didn't try to move other people from their chosen place on the line.
Mind you, that new speaker cable I put in actually added a horn section. As it were.
|
|
As I no longer have HD eyes or HIFI ears (although they work perfectly for my age) and I like to think I can spot a scam, a mid range quality OK is plenty adequate for me. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 4 Nov 13 at 19:21
|
"As I no longer have HD eyes or HIFI ears …….."
Don't worry, ON, in my experience, knowledge of hi-fi is inversely proportional to knowledge of music.
|
Depends what you mean by knowledge of music. I like to think I know more than average music and have a large collection of CDs, LPs and Spotify premium. Unlike some HIfI buffs I do enjoy gigs too though.
|
...as knowledge of cars can be inversely proportional to driving ability, I suppose. Is the person you know who's forever jumping from Alfa to BMW to Citroën, and wittering about the benefits of suspension geometry, likely to be the one you'd most enjoy travelling with? Or the one who just buys a new Astra every three years because it's OK? Or would you rather jump into that sweetly-fettled eight-year-old E55, knowing its driver can get the very best out of it and give you a sweet, safe, enjoyable ride?
I think there's a sweet spot to both - knowing enough to find the equipment that will best allow you to enjoy using it as its maker intended.
|
>>In fact my first [upgrade] step was the speaker cable.
Same as my first step. Except I put on some two-core 13 amp cable from a dead vacuum cleaner.
Now I'm worried that there still aren't enough strands for all the different instruments, so I take care only to listen to a capella singing where there are fewer than seventeen in the group.
|
|
Have you got the twist in the cable going the right way for the northern hemisphere?
|
|
And are your strands matched?
Last edited by: Focusless on Tue 5 Nov 13 at 10:52
|
>> And are your strands matched?
Mornington Crescent!
Seriously. Of more consequence is the orientation relative to the earth's magnetic field. My work is at an early stage (I find I can no longer completely understand my O level physics textbook) but when I moved house a while back my music didn't sound as good as it had before.
It took me a while to work it out, but in the old house the loudspeaker cables were running N-S. Here they are running NW-SE and I think that may be the problem.
Why, you may ask, has this not been taken up by the purveyors of audio accessories? Quite simply, there's no money in it. All they can hope to sell you is a compass.
It will be a while before I can progress the research and the theoretical explanation. I'm rather busy with my cold fusion project, and the A level textbook is even more taxing than the O level one.
|
|
I think you are onto something here. I always preferred The Beautiful South to Westlife.
|
|
...or East 17
Last edited by: Focusless on Tue 5 Nov 13 at 11:29
|
>> Why, you may ask, has this not been taken up by the purveyors of audio accessories?
>> Quite simply, there's no money in it. All they can hope to sell you is a compass.
I think you are making the mistake of looking at the issue in two dimensions. For a full understanding three dimensions should be considered. The Earth's magnetic field enters the surface at an angle known as the dip angle or angle of inclination.
For maximum musical enjoyment one must align one's torso with this angle. ( In London this angle is about 67° to the horizontal but varies throughout the country.)
This explains why music sounds better when reclined in a chair rather than standing up or lying down.
Thus there is a huge untapped market for adjustable reclining audiophile chairs.
|
>>Seriously. Of more consequence is the orientation relative to the earth's magnetic field.
>>
Seriously have you sounded out our member living in the south west ?
We need his input especially re the radon effect on cables.
Also can one of our members in the far north report on feedback re the Aurora Borealis ?
Can Nick in NZ add to the research re the Aurora Australis ?
IMO you just cannot ignore this aspect
www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/phenomenal-images-aurora-australis/9586?image=1
|
>>
>> On yes obviously gradual downhill or level is best ON. Think of the electrons as
>> marbles and the speaker cable as waste pipe. It's all fine as the cable drops
>> to the floor from the amplifier but when the cable rises up to stand mounted
>> speakers all the electrons (marbles) are going to logjam at that bend and you will
>> get a very muffled sound.
>>
My speaker cables have a short uphill section, but the sound quality improved markedly when I fitted them with an inline fan to blow the electrons upwards.
|
blowing them causes them to bunch up against each other and compress. You must have heard how compression can limit the range of sound available and can make it sound muffled?
For better sound you need to suck them through. In reality if you just suck the first few through the rest will get syphoned, just make sure your speaker is lower than the amplifier.
|
>> For better sound you need to suck them through. In reality if you just suck
>> the first few through the rest will get syphoned, just make sure your speaker is
>> lower than the amplifier.
you best not play 45's tho, the 'trons arrive at the speaker faster, and as ON will tell you faster means cavitation, and that creates noise.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 4 Nov 13 at 20:23
|
|
Cavitation will rapidly wreck your speakers, that is why CDs have been phased out.
|
>> blowing them causes them to bunch up against each other and compress. You must have
>> heard how compression can limit the range of sound available and can make it sound
>> muffled?
>>
>>
Ah, someone who doesn't change the oil in his cables every ten albums and when he does uses any old unbranded rubbish. Fully synthetic 5W 30 only ever goes in mine and I never get a problem with bunching.
|
>> Ah, someone who doesn't change the oil in his cables every ten albums
I thought this was on the joke side of the cable discussion until I looked it up and discovered that yes, indeed, you can get speaker cables in oil. Blimey.
|
>> >> Ah, someone who doesn't change the oil in his cables every ten albums
>>
>> I thought this was on the joke side of the cable discussion until I looked
>> it up and discovered that yes, indeed, you can get speaker cables in oil. Blimey.
>>
Humidity, room temperature and low pressure systems all impact on the cone deflections too.
|
|
didn't we have oil cooled speaker coils at one time? I suppose you have to worry about the directional properties of the oil, the direction of pouring -- that kind of thing. Those long chain molecules can be tricky blighters.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 5 Nov 13 at 09:51
|
Are you using dirty electricty? You need to buy a filter
www.greenwavefilters.com
|
The best link from that page is broken. However a little bit of detective work will find
archive.is/1ah1g
|
>> The best link from that page is broken. However a little bit of detective work
>> will find
>>
>> archive.is/1ah1g
>>
Thanks! I noticed it'd gone after posting
|
The weather is horrible here so I am idly browsing 'Leboncoin', the popular French free ads site. There's a bloke in the town 10 miles from me who is advertising a pair of speaker leads (with one broken, very ordinary looking spade terminal) for 3000€ and a pair of 'Stealth' XLR symmetric connector cables, 1 metre long, at 'half new price', 4500€.
Words now fail me - except to say the 'high end' hifi dealer in nearby Limoges went bust back along.
Last edited by: Mike Hannon on Sun 3 Nov 13 at 13:41
|
Many years ago I used to listen to my HiFi every night, but rarely use it now. It was, and still is, a very good system, to my ears at least. LP12 deck with some kind of Shure cartridge, Arcam Alpha 6 CD, NAC 42, Nap 110 & Snaps power supply, with Dynaudio Audience 50 speakers. I even have a very elderly pair of Heybrook HB1's. which still sound fine.
Not so long ago I was passing a rainy hour in a HiFi store on a less than romantic weekend away, mentioned the kit to the salesman, who made me an offer on the lot, subject to hearing the set up. As it was almost 200 miles from home I did not take it seriously. Maybe I should have as they really are wasted now with my lack of use. Hey ho.
|
|
I can get a Garrard SP25 MkIII for £7.50 down the boot sale. If you want it really authentic.
|
Really should go down to some car boots, not just HIFI but might be a lot of old computer stuff as well stuff like Amigas etc. I prefer a proper deck rather than just a brochure though
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-GARRARD-TURNTABLE-SP25-MK-III-COLOUR-BROCHURE-/111201244134?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19e41c53e6
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Sun 3 Nov 13 at 18:06
|
>> I prefer a proper deck rather than just a brochure though
:o}
|
|
I found a couple of yards (probably metric yards) of 2.5mm mains cable in the garage today. The conductors are bigger than the cable supplied with my speakers and as the cable run is not visible I will swap to the mains cable. I doubt if it will make any difference but I will give it a go anyway.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 3 Nov 13 at 20:25
|
>>I can get a Garrard SP25 MkIII for £7.50 down the boot sale<<
And I'll tell you what, it's performance in terms of 'rumble' and stability won't be miles away from Garrard's other idler drive machines, the 301 and 401, for which enthusiasts are apparently now handing over funny money.
|
|
The latest special edition 40th anniversary Linn Sondek LP12, in oak plinth made from Highland Park whisky barrels, with curlicues like Ekos SE3, would set back a buyer £25k. A limited run of 40. A round £1 million for the run - sold to dealers already I believe.
|
If that LP12 in Rats's link is halfway decent, £800 is a steal. I think that's what I paid for mine, secondhand, in 1991, and mine has lower-spec everything - plinth, power supply, arm...
LP12s are sensitive to mishandling, though, which would make me wary of buying one I hadn't tried out.
|
|
Still has three days to run, so will go for a lot more than £800 :).
|
|
Now and again Linn decks like this will go for £800 or so but with the power supply, original box etc and an owner who sounds like he knew how to look after it £1200+ would be easily possible for this one.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 4 Nov 13 at 11:07
|
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fJmmDkvQyc
Sorry about the ad, but you can skip it.
|
I have been reading and laughing at many of the above comments about loudspeaker cables. Nobody has been using any engineering to back up their arguments, causing me to locate an article I stored on my computer many years ago. It is called Slaying the Dragon and luckily I could locate it on the web - www.resolutionmag.com/pdfs/DRAGONS/SPEAKE~1.PDF
I hope it helps somebody save their cash.
I was an electronics engineer with Cambridge Audio in their VERY early (1968) days, and still have a P40 amplifer, but only used in the garage nowadays.
Last edited by: Aretas on Tue 5 Nov 13 at 14:36
|
From the same site....
"2m pair Nordost Valhalla Speaker cable 2 to 2 Z plugs. List £6,360.00 sell for £3,495.00"
They are just %$^& cables !!
I feel like Arthur Dent on a Thursday.
|
|
Ah but: "SPEED: 98% speed of light" you have to admit that is pretty quick
|
>> I feel like Arthur Dent on a Thursday.
Those are the bargain bin. Did you look at the first link from rtj70?
I can't believe they've sold any. The website looks like something the 14 year old next door knocked up.
|
I just popped in to our local Curry's to check how much their TOSLink cables are.
I already have a cheap optical cable connecting our TV with the new soundbar, but I was being nosy and wondering if an improvement could be cost effective
£35 near enough.
I'm afraid I was rather rude about that price to the young (male) salesperson!
|
|
At least the magic cable makers really do give you pandemonium cores and plaited unicorns' tails in exchange for your million pounds. All Currys does is to take the cable you can get from Amazon for £3.50 and slap an inflated price on it. They have to pay for all that price matching on washing machines somehow.
|
Never mind speaker cable orientations. How about a vinyl LP that has, amongst other amusing delights, two tracks hidden under the centre label. I imagine they are unplayable. Perhaps it's art.
www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/09/vinylfetish_hipsters_might_just_have_a_point/
|
|
Hmmm... nice novelty Jack but I'll have the regular CD thanks. My Technics auto everything linear tracker would probably expire faced with that LP.
|
HiFi separates - Zero
