What are the views on candidates ( and supporting party members ) hanging around outside polling stations on polling day?
My wife is ill today so other party members are at certain times of the day standing down there, but to be honest I am failing to see any point to it. This morning there were 3 Labour members and 3 Tory members hanging out chatting away to each other and later on when I went to vote there was one of each, Tory, Labour and our UKIP stand-in.
What purpose does this serve? The general rules are that you can smile, say good morning and not a great deal else as there is a code of conduct essentially designed so you dont hassle voters, which begs the question why bother being there?
The Labour guy blocked the entrance to the polling station demanding voter numbers until I told him I was there to vote, not talk to him.
So would you do away with party members guarding polling stations? It seems to me just an old fashioned habit that really makes the parties involved look a bit desperate, especially 3 party members just for a town council seat.
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The way you describe it reminds of running the gauntlet of charity collecters at the supermarket exit.
Don't see anything wrong with the interested parties reps hanging about, especially those seeking office, nice to put a face to the name and how approachable they might be.
In a way it shows that someones putting some effort in, and not taking votes for granted...as certain parties have been inclined to do in years gone by.
Best smile then FoR.
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Those people are usually smiling and inoffensive, although they do sometimes ask for your voter number. We don't have a secret ballot in this country, anyone with access can find out how you voted.
I suppose if you arrived without a clue as to any of their policies they could give you a quick sanitised version before you made your earth-shaking choice. 'We're going to abolish death and make everyone rich and happy, before conquering other planets and establishing colonies there.' That sort of thing.
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>> We don't have a secret ballot in this country, anyone with access can find out how you voted.
????. Please explain.
IIRC from my several times as a polling clerk and vote counter only a Judge can authorise access to papers after the count is completed.
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"only a Judge can authorise access to papers after the count is completed."
Absolutely correct, Henry. But fair dues to AC, it is a question that I used to harangue polling staff with myself.
The 'corresponding number list' is sealed into an envelope by the Presiding Officer immediately after the poll closes, and used ballot papers are also sealed up after the count. The sealed packets can only be opened on the order of a judge if fraud or personation is being investigated.
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>> >> We don't have a secret ballot in this country, anyone with access can find
>> out how you voted.
>> ????. Please explain.
>>
>> IIRC from my several times as a polling clerk and vote counter only a Judge
>> can authorise access to papers after the count is completed.
>>
So, if the records are kept, then it cannot be regarded as permanently secret.
The fact that a Judge can authorise access to papers, proves the point that, if a 'need' is given to a Judge, then the 'secret' information could be forthcoming.
One reason I refuse to vote.
One other is there is no one worth voting for.
A third, is I disagree with 'protest' voting - not voting, in my opinion says a lot more...
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Trouble is you are restricted in what you can say so you cant get much out of the candidates, they can only really listen to you.
The real work is canvassing door to door as you get all the time you want within reason, topic unlimited. I think it would be a good idea to publicise when candidates are on walkabout and allow voters to make appointments with them if they wish, it is all pretty disorganised and pure chance if they knock on your door when you are in.
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They should be told to clear off. They pretend to be part of the proceedings here, asking for the voter number/name and calling it out to the actual polling station staff inside. What they are doing is recording who votes and who doesn't.
Unfortunately I won't be able to ignore them pointedly on 24th October because I will be voting by post this time.
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We have a by-election in the near future, I have just had four Labour supporters at my door. After they introduced themselves I replied with "Would that be the Labour party that bankrupted the country buying votes with benefits paid for with my taxes?" As one they turned and left, They would make a good formation dancing team. :-)
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I don't like "people" much and I especially don't like people who accost me in the street even if I happen to agree with their politics, already give to their charity, am in need of another credit card or may even be willing or able to buy a conservatory from their company.
I prefer to vote unmolested, give money without being coerced, choose finance options myself and research home improvement options at my leisure.
Bah !
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Good answer ON, I'll try that one!
Do you have suitable ones for the others?
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If Labour, Plaid or anyone else I don't vote for come knocking on my door I'll keep them talking. They waste enough of my time so I'm quite prepared to waste some of theirs.
The Conservative guy gets told to go to other houses cos he's got my vote already. :-)
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Nothing in my polling booth. Been postal voting for the last few polls.
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>> If Labour, Plaid or anyone else I don't vote for come knocking on my door
>> I'll keep them talking. They waste enough of my time so I'm quite prepared to
>> waste some of theirs.
>>
>> The Conservative guy gets told to go to other houses cos he's got my vote
>> already. :-)
My old Gran always used to tell them all she would vote for them but would always tell the Tory that she would definitely vote for him if only she could get to the polling station.
The Tory always took the bait and would always promise her a lift to the polling station on the day. Come polling day the car would arrive and off would go Gran to do her duty.
Now, I know my Gran was a lifelong Labour supporter so I asked her why she always got a lift off the Tory, her reasoning was that, firstly, while the Tory car was taking her to the polls it wasn't being used for a genuine Tory, secondly, the local Tory candidate always had a nice shiny Jag and Gran was always partial to riding in the back of a Jag.......
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"My old Gran always used to tell them.............."
Priceless!!!
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Hmmm. No offence intended, but pretty typical of Labour.
Can't fault the old gal's logic though!
Last edited by: Harleyman on Thu 3 Oct 13 at 20:01
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>> Good answer ON, I'll try that one!
>>
>> Do you have suitable ones for the others?
>>
I have a stock answer for beggars, "Your benefits are more than my pension, will you give me some money?"
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"They should be told to clear off. They pretend to be part of the proceedings here, asking for the voter number/name and calling it out to the actual polling station staff inside. What they are doing is recording who votes and who doesn't."
I agree, but I would tend to be a little less polite. The people are 'tellers' and they are allowed to be there, but are subject to restrictions. I work as a Presiding Officer at elections, though only at a quiet rural village - we tend not to have sufficient activity to cause tellers to turn up but, if they did, I would make sure that they knew where they stood.
I used to work in the chemical industry where my last boss was a Frenchman seconded over here for a few years. He lived locally so we invited him and his wife to join us at the polling station (this was before I became involved in the process); he was legally allowed to vote in one or two aspects of the poll.
He was disgusted by the presence of tellers and the degree of razzamatazz on display and peeled away from the queue for us to join him later at the pub. Apparently, in France, elections are held on Sundays; they are very sober affairs with all 'electioneering' terminated by law at midnight before the day of the poll. That is certainly something that I would prefer to happen here.
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Democracy is an old tradition in this country.
Time was when the landlord's agent used to turn up in the pub with a bag of gold.
'Who wants to show their gratitude to his lordship by giving their vote to his second son, who represents the village, the estate and the country, the party of patriotism, monarchy and death to the French, the party that can treat you to a gallon of strong ale and five golden guineas?'
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Well something akin to this happened in Birmingham a few years ago when postal votes were fiddled by some gentlemen of asian extraction. If I were in change, they would have been flogged and deported.
I dislike politicians and I don't entirely agree with our voting system, however I feel proud to assist, as far as I can, in ensuring a free and fair election.
Following one of the elections, I was asked to assist with vote counting at the local leisure centre. Tables were set out in the larger of the sports halls and forms were tipped from ballot boxes and counted. Certain people, including candidates, were allowed in the hall - I was amused by identifying the candidate's party by their style of dress. No one was allowed to speak to any of the counters.
I had noted a smattering of groups of 6 or 7 foreign - looking gentlemen observing from the sidelines and I was approached by one of their hosts. He had asked the permission of the Returning Officer, and would I mind if some of the visitors asked me about the job I was doing? I explained that I had applied to work on elections as a result of an article in a community newsletter. "But which party do you work for?". I explained that I wasn't sponsored or paid by any political party - I was paid by the council ....... I was absolutely neutral in my work. They looked quizzical "But surely one of the parties pays you?" - they just couldn't understand the concept of 'fairness'.
It brought it home to me that our system could be so much worse.
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I attended the count, as a candidate, for the council elections in May this year and was struck how civilised it all was.
One thing which did come to sight was that every table had a Labour party supporter trying to read the votes as they were sorted: not too hard to do if you know the candidates position on the poll ticket. They then made a mark for every Labour vote they had spotted, on a piece of paper.
Why, I wonder? The results were announced, with the number of votes of course, within a couple of hours or so.
What could possibly be gained from this practice?
(I came second to a long standing Labour County councillor, although at one time the piles of counted votes were pretty even - until the postal votes thundered in!)
Last edited by: Roger on Thu 3 Oct 13 at 23:28
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>> What could possibly be gained from this practice?
A rough guide to the number of votes the labour candidate should have, discrepency or close finish could make the difference to demanding a recount?
>> (I came second to a long standing Labour County councillor, although at one time the
>> piles of counted votes were pretty even - until the postal votes thundered in!)
Well done Roger and i mean that, pity that meagre ''protest vote'' from the loonies and fruitcakes was swamped by the post..:-))
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Well done for standing Roger. I don't mind people voting UKIP, as long as they vote.
The more people cycnically decline to take part, either by voting or standing, the worse will be the representatives we end up with.
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>> Well done for standing Roger. I don't mind people voting UKIP, as long as they
>> vote.
>>
>> The more people cycnically decline to take part, either by voting or standing, the worse
>> will be the representatives we end up with.
>>
Well we are, locally, gearing up for the May 2014 District Council elections with a public meeting on Sunday with our MEP as guest speaker.
Our council elects 1/3 of its members at each election, so we have to find 15 candidates prepared to put their heads over the parapet.
We have 50 members on our branch roll, but not too many activists - usual, I suppose.
Our party's breadth of support nationally is a source of weakness as well as strength, as our members are not concentrated in pockets, unlike the Lib Dems, say, thus making it difficult under the FPTP system to actually win seats.
At the last County Council elections for instance, (in Nottinghamshire), UKIP garnered substantially more votes overall than the Lib Dems. We had no councillors elected: they had eight elected.
Still, that's the way it's done; it's up to us to get organised and plug away!
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>>Certain people, including candidates, were allowed in the hall -
>>
IIRC anyone is allowed to watch the procedings.
>>No one was allowed to speak to any of the counters.
When I was counting certain onlookers soon protested if a ballot paper was put in the wrong pile. A waste of breath as all the papers were rechecked.
Papers that were not marked to the normal standard were shown to the "official" observers for an agreement / interpretation of the voting intention. All very civilised
One count I was at had both Hammond and Kelvin MacKensie there plus of course lots of press. That was a distraction.
Some spoiled papers were amusing but others were four letter type messages
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"IIRC anyone is allowed to watch the procedings."
I can't claim to know the rules on counts - I've only ever assisted at one. I don't think that you can simply 'wander into a counting station' without the permission of the Returning Officer - for a start, there are practical considerations of space to consider. The rules for counts are laid out in part E of this document.
www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/electoral-administrator/local-elections-in-england-and-wales
It's easy just to go along to the polling station and vote but until I actually took part in the process, I had no idea of its full complexity. Polling station staff are issued with a handbook and undergo a session of training before every election; rules are gradually adjusted to take into account every possible situation where difficulties could arise.
I am glad to work in a rather civilised rural polling station, but those assisting in some of the inner city areas have real problems to deal with e.g. when a load of students roll up at 21.50 from the pub and the police become involved or immigrants who can't speak English insist on voting on behalf of their old mother who can't get down to the polling station etc etc.
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>>t's easy just to go along to the polling station and vote but until I actually took part in the process, I had no idea of its full complexity. Polling station staff are issued with a handbook and undergo a session of training before every election; rules are gradually adjusted to take into account every possible situation where difficulties could arise.
>>
>>immigrants who can't speak English insist on voting on behalf of their old mother who can't get down to the polling station etc etc.
>>
Oh yes it was all very interesting.
A carer arriving with a voter who assists that voter has to subjected to the rules and additional paperwork.
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Postal voting should be banned. Its far too prone to fraud.
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Postal voting should be banned. Its far too prone to fraud.
Ah, so you'd disenfranchise the housebound would you? You'll be popular.
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>> Postal voting should be banned. Its far too prone to fraud.
>>
>> Ah, so you'd disenfranchise the housebound would you? You'll be popular.
Zeddo is right though, there needs to be more control over postal voting. There is strong evidence of abuse in some communities and I'm not convinced care homes and like are immune either.
IIRC it used to be subject to rules such as proving you were housebound or working away. I used the facility once, probably for the 79 General Election. I was registered at my parent's home but working in London.
As well as proving my case there were hoops to jump through in sealing the vote into the envelope.
OTOH we struggle to get a decent turnout but I suspect that's cynicsm rather than it being too difficult to toddle round to the polling station.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 4 Oct 13 at 10:42
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>> Postal voting should be banned. Its far too prone to fraud.
I don't think it should be banned, but it certainly should be much better controlled, perhaps with medical stickyfoots for those genuinely unable to get to a polling station.
Fraud has been proved in quite a few cases and is suspected in others.
One bedroom flats with 9 registered voters , it is alleged (!) are not completely unknown.
With polling stations being open from very early morning until 10pm, it is not unreasonable to expect the able-bodied to get there, even if working.
"Time off work for voting?", I hear you screech - well, most working stiffs can get time off for a routine dental appointment!
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>> Postal voting should be banned. Its far too prone to fraud.
True, as has been proven - with some people "helping" the disengaged and harvesting votes by the score.
The expansion of postal voting by New Labour was a cynical piece of vote rigging, they weren't so naive as not to be able to forecast the abuse that has occurred. If Labour was still in power we'd probably be voting by text message. I say that as someone who was pro Labour until the Blair years.
I have my first ever postal vote in a couple of weeks because I shall be away from home on voting day. It's time to revert to postal votes for servicemen and the housebound only.
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I use postal voting quite a bit, infact I think I've been to a polling station twice in my life. Very handy for me, however I can see it's open to fraud.
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>> >> Postal voting should be banned. Its far too prone to fraud.
>>
>> True, as has been proven - with some people "helping" the disengaged and harvesting votes by the score.
>>
>> I have my first ever postal vote in a couple of weeks because I shall be away from home on voting day.
>>
So are many many people! e.g NHS and others on shift work.l
It's time to revert to postal votes for servicemen and the housebound only.
>>
Servicemen in this country can leg it to the polling station !!
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As I said, I will be away next time but I would forgo my vote to prevent the widespread abuse that is undoubtedly still going on because it is basically undetectable. We know it's undetectable because we have been repeatedly told that there is no evidence of it.
Shift workers in most cases will find it easier to get to the polling station than I did.
The current design was directed at making it easy and painless to vote, not fraud proof which should be the paramount criterion.
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>> It's time to revert to postal votes for servicemen and the housebound only.
>> >>
>> Servicemen in this country can leg it to the polling station !!
>>
Actually quite handy for those that live away from their home address during the week. Of which there are quite a few, for many it might be quite a run!
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Can't remember the last time I went to a polling station. I've done my voting via post for ages now.
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I started postal voting when I started as a poll clerk.
Rules said I had to be on site before polls opened and we finished after polls closed.
Of course not a poll clerk at my "home" polling station.
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It cannot be beyond the wit of mankind in the 21st century to devise a secure polling system that does not involve a trip in person to to a polling station.
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>>
>> It cannot be beyond the wit of mankind in the 21st century to devise a
>> secure polling system that does not involve a trip in person to to a polling
>> station.
I agree. Google could organise it, of that I have no doubt.
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>>Can't remember the last time I went to a polling station. I've done my voting via post for ages now.
I'm with this^ Giza.
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I attended the count for the by-election my wife stood in last night and it was a very interesting experience. Firstly I discovered that I have turned my wife into a political animal who having assumed she had no chance then got quite excited at how many people did actually vote for her - she didnt win, but she got 18% of the vote against a very big operation from the Tories/Labour who were door knocking at 8pm to get people to the polling station - we all agreed we didnt much like that behaviour as a party so we declined to join in.
Secondly it is, as Roger said, a very civilised affair, lots of polite people and the Tory women were quietly very supportive of my wife because they liked that a woman had stood in a sea of old male candidates - they encouraged her to have another go too, there are many UKIP at heart Conservative Party members in our local lot by the sounds of it but they like the comfort of the big party backing.
Perhaps the third thing is, politics is incredibly good fun. One lady came up to our rep and the Labour rep at the polling station before voting and wanted to know where each stood on a number of issues but they couldnt answer due to the conduct rules and explained this - ie she had to vote, then they could tell her so she went in and came out again and asked, so they answered her - then she turns to them and says " Now I can go and vote " and in she went having fooled both of them to get her answers. Gotta love people like that.
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18% first time round?, thats not to be sniffed at.
Well done to your guvnor FoR give her our best wishes, have no doubt she will get more next time.
As for the door knocking to rabble rouse at the last minute thats the advantage of having such a long term deep rooted political machine at your disposal, no i don't like it either but its part and parcel of how the established groups have kept themselves in power, scraping the underside of the barrell isn't low enough when power is in their grasp.
What were the results if you don't mind?
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As GB says above. Well done!
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Yep, well done to the gal, 18% is quite good really, for a first timer.
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>> As for the door knocking to rabble rouse at the last minute thats the advantage
>> of having such a long term deep rooted political machine at your disposal, no i
>> don't like it either but its part and parcel of how the established groups have
>> kept themselves in power, scraping the underside of the barrell isn't low enough when power
>> is in their grasp.
>>
Canvassing your vote and getting supporters out on the day is a hallmark of good organisation.
On the national swing in 2010 Labour's Gisla Stewart would have lost Birmingham Edgbaston by some margin. Local supporters, including my wife's cousin, were out all day running the elderly, disabled and non-motorised to the poll. Ms Stewart is a dedicated constituency MP and will have a strong personal vote but there's no substitute for getting the punters out.
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>>18% first time round?, thats not to be sniffed at.
Well done to your guvnor FoR give her our best wishes, have no doubt she will get more next time.<<
I am extremely proud of her, it is more than a little gutsy to stick your neck out like that but the way she has been talking she fully intends to have another go.
Given that the election was short notice ( I think the Tory guy died ) and many active members were on holiday, it was a good first run, there are alot of ideas in the pipeline for improving our local party machine and the membership is growing at about 14% per month.
Results were: Con 42%, Lab 34%, UKIP 18%, Lib 4%, BNP 2%. We think the Labour vote is especially soft. Turnout was just 28%.
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Say thanks to your wife from me Stu, for putting her head above the parapet.
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>> Given that the election was short notice ( I think the Tory guy died )
I don't doubt that all parties had the same length of notice....
>> and many active members were on holiday, >>
In October? yore avin a larf!
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>>In October? yore avin a larf! <<
Well you see UKIP isnt full of rich toffs, we have to go when it is cheap.
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>> >>18% first time round?, thats not to be sniffed at.
>>
>> Well done to your guvnor FoR give her our best wishes, have no doubt she
>> will get more next time.<<
>>
>> I am extremely proud of her, it is more than a little gutsy to stick
>> your neck out like that but the way she has been talking she fully intends
>> to have another go.
>> Given that the election was short notice ( I think the Tory guy died )
>> and many active members were on holiday, it was a good first run, there are
>> alot of ideas in the pipeline for improving our local party machine and the membership
>> is growing at about 14% per month.
>>
>> Results were: Con 42%, Lab 34%, UKIP 18%, Lib 4%, BNP 2%. We think the
>> Labour vote is especially soft. Turnout was just 28%.
Well done, her! As said, 18% from a standing start is very respectable. No doubt we'll be getting the results email from UKIP soon!
We need more like your good lady, FoR :-)
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>> We think the Labour vote is especially soft.
UKIP spokesfolk have been saying that. But it's the Con vote that UKIP is splitting really
>> Turnout was just 28%.
But would the proportionate votes have been much different with a turnout of say 50%? Damned if I know, but I suspect not very different.
Yr missus has done well Stu. UKIP is thought to be going to do very well in the Euro elections. Is she thinking of standing there (and perhaps dragging you off to Brussels to enjoy some moule marinière and chips)? It's an ill wind that, er, ....
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>>UKIP spokesfolk have been saying that. But it's the Con vote that UKIP is splitting really<<
Depends on the region - maybe in the South but in the North UKIP are coming second to Labour quite often now and actually if the Tories stood aside in their no hope seats UKIP may take them from Labour - that is the strength of UKIP in a way, it has punch in the North which the Tories can only dream of. Tories have been banging on about making progress up there but they tend to talk more than they succeed - their branding issue is seemingly terminal and why I dont see a Tory majority happening for a very long time.
>>But would the proportionate votes have been much different with a turnout of say 50%? Damned if I know, but I suspect not very different.<<
No idea is the answer, it was a wet and miserable day though. Personally I think our campaign message was a bit rushed and I would have started again but we decided at the last minute to run so didnt have the planning we will have in future.
>>Yr missus has done well Stu. UKIP is thought to be going to do very well in the Euro elections. Is she thinking of standing there (and perhaps dragging you off to Brussels to enjoy some moule marinière and chips)? <<
It would be disappointing if we didnt atleast come a good second, although winning would be the cream on top. No she wont be standing, the candidates are already selected anyway, just waiting for the announcement from HQ, but she wouldnt stand in any case, nor would I. I was asked if I would fancy standing as MP to which I said no, I hate London but if they move Parliament to Melton Mowbray, Im in! I am happy enough to stay at county level and work in the grassroots - actually a lesser known ambition of UKIP is to bring more powers not only home from the EU but to local communities and councils would play a part in that so in a way I want to stay close to the ultimate goal - me as an MP, can you imagine it??!!
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Here is something for you GB and any others who like to hear Nigel at full steam:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnCgFUH1WQM
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A great speech, from a great orator, and he's genuine too, speaks from the heart IMO.
Tear down the wall EU!
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>> A great speech, from a great orator, and he's genuine too, speaks from the heart
>> IMO.
Ditto Hiltler.
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>> Ditto Hiltler.
I don't think so Zero. Hitler was a brain-and-one-gonad man, not a man of the heart. An operator, a button-presser with a gang of equally cynical and indifferent collaborators. If any of them had given a damn for the well-being of the Germans or anyone else, none of it would have happened.
I suspect Mr Vuvuzela is a bit like that too. But he's a lot more personable than Hitler.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 4 Oct 13 at 15:52
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>> Here is something for you GB and any others who like to hear Nigel at
>> full steam:
Superb, you can see why the leaders of the 2.5 parties are terrified of going near Nige in a televised debate, he'd wipe the floor with 'em.
By the way the lib dems might as well pack up and go home following you guvnors voting results.
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>>By the way the lib dems might as well pack up and go home following you guvnors voting results. <<
They didnt send a single person to the count although the BNP sent two plus wife - in anticipation of what I dont know, hardly anyone spoke to them.
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Stewart,
Same message I gave Roger when he stood:
Just so you are aware, using the information about your wife's candidacy and knowing approx where in country you live, the full name and address of both of you is accessible in a few mouse clicks.
If you're OK with that fine, I'm not going to link to it!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 4 Oct 13 at 15:26
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No its fine, if you stand for election your full address is available to anyone - pop round for a cuppa if you are in the area :-)
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The slightly odd Bob cartoon on p. 28 of today's Telegraph may give Ukippers a little chortle. It gave me one anyway, although it seems to stretch the point more than somewhat.
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Polling station etiquette - -
