My new (renewal) credit card came with contact less payment option enabled by default.
I feel bit paranoid about it. How near the card needs to be near the payment terminal/device to charge it?
Can someone charge it without my knowledge? Unlike a PIN, I don't see any way it requires my intervention to explicitly authorize the payment!
I'm thinking of calling up my bank and ask them to disable the feature in my card.
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>> My new (renewal) credit card came with contact less payment option enabled by default.
>>
>> I feel bit paranoid about it. How near the card needs to be near the
>> payment terminal/device to charge it?
About half an inch
>> Can someone charge it without my knowledge? Unlike a PIN, I don't see any way
>> it requires my intervention to explicitly authorize the payment!
There is no pin. Its instant payment, BUT it is limited to 15 pounds per transaction.
There are claims (unsubstantiated) that some people have been erroneously billed by contact-less terminals in Marks and Spencer, I find that difficult to believe as in my experience one needs to place the card more or less on the terminal to get it to work.
>> I'm thinking of calling up my bank and ask them to disable the feature in
>> my card.
I wouldn't, your worries are groundless. The only bugbear is that I now have three contactless cards, Oyster, Debit card and Credit card. You can't have them all in the same wallet and touch the terminal with your wallet, it gets confused about what card to talk to.
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>> I wouldn't, your worries are groundless. The only bugbear is that I now have three
>> contactless cards, Oyster, Debit card and Credit card. You can't have them all in the
>> same wallet and touch the terminal with your wallet, it gets confused about what card
>> to talk to.
>>
What if the terminal talks to all three? That's my worry. Don't like cardless payment cards. It's a solution to a question that no-one asked.
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>> What if the terminal talks to all three? That's my worry. Don't like cardless payment
>> cards. It's a solution to a question that no-one asked.
Don't think it will talk to more than one. Risk is it talking to wrong one or getting in a mess with choice.
Some people were asking the question. Me in queue at station newsagent behind guy paying for coffee and sarnie with fumbled and slow authorising C&P card for one.
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>> What if the terminal talks to all three?
As i explained, if there is more than one it wont talk to any.
>> cards. It's a solution to a question that no-one asked.
Enthusiastically adopted by non dinosaurs. We all know the last of the Jurassic creatures inhabit this site.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 30 Sep 13 at 13:06
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>> Enthusiastically adopted by non dinosaurs. We all know the last of the Jurassic creatures inhabit
>> this site.
>>
At least the dinosaurs aren't the " Me now, rush rush, hurry hurry, me first, stress stress, heart attack by 40 generation".
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>>heart attack by 40 generation".
>>
That sounds like my grandparents' generation, with their 60 a day filterless Woodbines and everything-fried-in-pig-lard-for-breakfast-with-2lbs-of-salt habits.
You may have noticed that people's life expectancy is actually growing now, hence all the fuss about pensions and the NHS keeping unproductive, moaning, "entitlement" generation 70+ year olds alive.
There I go again, sounding like the only person who ever worked for a living no doubt.....
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>> You may have noticed that people's life expectancy is actually growing now, hence all the
>> fuss about pensions and the NHS keeping unproductive, moaning, "entitlement" generation 70+ year olds alive.
>>
>> There I go again, sounding like the only person who ever worked for a living
>> no doubt.....
yup.
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Need to keep busy paying for all these pensioners loitering around the place.
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>> >> Enthusiastically adopted by non dinosaurs. We all know the last of the Jurassic creatures
>> inhabit
>> >> this site.
>> >>
>>
>> At least the dinosaurs aren't the " Me now, rush rush, hurry hurry, me first,
>> stress stress, heart attack by 40 generation".
Think you'll find I am in the v late 50's, retired, "yawn what shall I do today" generation, yet somehow I don't treat every convenience that modern society brings as something terrible.
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>> Enthusiastically adopted by non dinosaurs. We all know the last of the Jurassic creatures inhabit
>> this site.
>>
Would that include you?
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>> >> Enthusiastically adopted by non dinosaurs. We all know the last of the Jurassic creatures
>> inhabit
>> >> this site.
>> >>
>>
>> Would that include you?
There were fleet footed forward thinking creatures that inhabited the same park as the Dinosaurs.
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I'm not sure about the contactless aspect (never directly used it) of the card but I paid for a round of drinks on mine in a pub, handed the bartender the card and he handed it back with a receipt - no PIN! Unless the did the contactless part behind the bar?
I don't take the card out much as it is a bills only account - that was with First Direct.
On a side note, QVC or ideal world were selling payment card shields last weekend. Apparently just having the card in your wallet in a pocket can be scammed by someone with a RFID scanner close by.
EDIT - this took me ages to type and Zero may have answered some of your questions already!
Last edited by: nice but dim on Mon 30 Sep 13 at 12:25
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Don't have one myself but observe their enthusiastic adoption by users of the sandwich bars near work.
There are a few stories of people being double charged in eg clothing stores where card is read while being moved in vicinity of reader. Provided one from customer and assitant is on QV this is low probability and should easily be resolved.
A greater risk I think is if you keep it in same wallet as another swipe card, Oyster in London is obvious one. Would be easy for machinery to charge to payment card instead of Oyster with loss of discount etc. Keep Oystercard seperate from other cards.
Yes, in theory a stolen card can be used without your knowledge. The transaction limit is low (£10?) and I'd hope that bank would quickly spot unusual transactions or a 'splurge' ans stop the card.
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>> A greater risk I think is if you keep it in same wallet as another
>> swipe card, Oyster in London is obvious one. Would be easy for machinery to charge
>> to payment card instead of Oyster with loss of discount etc. Keep Oystercard seperate from
>> other cards.
Sees more than one card, none of them work. cant charge wrong card
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>> Sees more than one card, none of them work. cant charge wrong card
>>
Can see only the wrong one though as other is shielded or out of range?
In my wallet for example they might be seperated by a wodge of card/magnetic strip type tickets of the National Rail type plus my photocard.
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>> >> Sees more than one card, none of them work. cant charge wrong card
>> >>
>>
>> Can see only the wrong one though as other is shielded or out of range?
>> In my wallet for example they might be seperated by a wodge of card/magnetic strip
>> type tickets of the National Rail type plus my photocard.
You cant use your Oyster card in Costa, and you cant use your Charge card on the tube, so you cant "charge the wrong card"
At the moment
TfL advice on buses were you can use your charge card.
If you keep your contactless payment card and Oyster card together (for instance in a wallet) and touch them on the yellow card reader together, the reader will normally reject them both. This is because we can't be sure which card you want to use. If you have more than one contactless card (Oyster card, payment card or building pass), please choose the card that you intend to pay with, and touch it on its own on the yellow card reader. If you don't there is a small possibility that payment will be taken from a card that you did not intend using.
But I am sure a bill for £1:30 on the wrong card is hardly a national disaster
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>>
>> But I am sure a bill for £1:30 on the wrong card is hardly a
>> national disaster
Agreed, but could be a bit of an irritation. More so if you've done it a dozen times before getting a statement and spotting the issue.
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>> Agreed, but could be a bit of an irritation. More so if you've done it
>> a dozen times before getting a statement and spotting the issue.
>>
A month's worth of paying the inflated cash charge for tube/bus journeys over the Oyster charge could be more than just an irritation, especially when you tried to get a refund from the bank or TfL. Repeated every month.
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>> >> Agreed, but could be a bit of an irritation. More so if you've done
>> it
>> >> a dozen times before getting a statement and spotting the issue.
>> >>
>>
>> A month's worth of paying the inflated cash charge for tube/bus journeys over the Oyster
>> charge could be more than just an irritation, especially when you tried to get a
>> refund from the bank or TfL. Repeated every month.
No we are in the realms of what if cloud cuckoo land
every day for a month and month after month - Yeah right.
And I see you didn't read about only oyster working on the tube bit either.
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>> And I see you didn't read about only oyster working on the tube bit either.
>>
That's not what your quote a couple of posts earlier said.
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>>
>> >> And I see you didn't read about only oyster working on the tube bit
>> either.
>> >>
>>
>> That's not what your quote a couple of posts earlier said.
What the bit about TFL advice for BUSES? you know? those big red things with rubber wheels that don't go on the underground lines?
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Yes. A tube is not a bus.
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so why did you go on about multiple cards on the tube?
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I called up the card issuer and they confirmed there is NO way they can disable the contact less option on the card!!
That's bad! Customers should have got the option rather than dumping something on them!!
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It works just like cash then. Mine can drain out of my wallet apparently before I even know I want to buy something.
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>> I called up the card issuer and they confirmed there is NO way they can
>> disable the contact less option on the card!!
>>
>> That's bad! Customers should have got the option rather than dumping something on them!!
>>
You do have an option, shift the account to another provider, chop up the card and bin it.
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>> You do have an option, shift the account to another provider, chop up the card
>> and bin it.
ALL banks will be issuing them. You could try another approach, move with the times maybe.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 30 Sep 13 at 14:00
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Can kind of understand not being able to 'switch off' the contactless functionality on a particular card but can they issue a replacement without?
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No they can't/won't for newer cards.
I think it is not in their interest to issue different types of cards. In that case, they need to manufacture different types of cards, update their IT system to keep track of multiple types of cards, check for extra steps during each transaction etc.
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>> move with the times maybe.
...and upgrade your desktop to Windows 8, and install iOS7, while you're at it.
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IIRC you will get randonly asked for a PIN, especially if there is any reason for suspicision.
I was glad of CP on the M6 toll road when I didn't pull up close enough to the ticket machine and there was a car right up my backside which meant I couldn't manoeuvre closer to the machine. The inductance loop picked up my Barclays CP chip and the transaction was done.
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>> I called up the card issuer and they confirmed there is NO way they can
>> disable the contact less option on the card!!
>>
>> That's bad! Customers should have got the option rather than dumping something on them!
Then dump the card issuer!
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I guess this will be now default option for all cards!
I might be tempted to use cash for small purchases.
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Yes, you can' t lose cash, be short changed of have it appropriated by the wife when you leave it on the hall table.
Second thoughts this contactless payment system seem just the job.
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>> >> I called up the card issuer and they confirmed there is NO way they
>> can
>> >> disable the contact less option on the card!!
>> >>
>> >> That's bad! Customers should have got the option rather than dumping something on them!
>>
>>
>> Then dump the card issuer!
.cc ALL banks will be issuing them. You could try another approach, move with the times maybe.
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"Moving with the times"
a bit radical. It's always 1953 here.
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>>
>> .cc ALL banks will be issuing them. You could try another approach, move with the
>> times maybe.
>>
That doesn't mean that every card issued by every bank will have that feature:
"Barclaycard offers a range of market leading credit cards with features such as fantastic balance transfer rates, rewards when you spend and credit building, as well as contactless technology."
A range with features such as ... implies otherwise.
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>> A range with features such as ... implies otherwise.
No the "as well as" implies "you get it anyway"
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 30 Sep 13 at 21:27
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>> I called up the card issuer and they confirmed there is NO way they can
>> disable the contact less option on the card!!
>>
>> That's bad! Customers should have got the option rather than dumping something on them!!
Its called progress, its kinda been happening for a while now, say the last few centuries.
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It's very irritating though. For those of us with Oyster cards that get a lot of use, anyway.
At least now I've got two contactless credit cards, which sit on the other side of my wallet from my Oyster which should prevent mistakes.
The real problem is the excessive number of non-bank cards we have to carry. Tesco, Nectar, National Trust, Oyster travelcard etc. As all they do is to identify you, they could all be on just one card.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Mon 30 Sep 13 at 14:13
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>> It's very irritating though. For those of us with Oyster cards that get a lot
>> of use, anyway.
>>
>> At least now I've got two contactless credit cards, which sit on the other side
>> of my wallet from my Oyster which should prevent mistakes.
I got a ticket wallet as a freebie with current Brompton. My National Rail ticket, its photocard and my Oyster are kept in it while it travels in my shirt pocket. There, it's easy to pick out with free hand for display at barrier while pushing bike with other.
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>> I got a ticket wallet as a freebie with current Brompton. My National Rail ticket,
>> its photocard and my Oyster are kept in it while it travels in my shirt
>> pocket. There, it's easy to pick out with free hand for display at barrier while
>> pushing bike with other.
You have pockets in your shirts? Yuck.
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Civil Servant. Pens in them too no doubt.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 30 Sep 13 at 14:38
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>> Civil Servant. Pens in them too no doubt.
Nothing wrong with a pocket on left side, both on leisure shirts. No shame in having (fountain) pen to hand there as well.
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I bet you wear socks with sandals and tie a knotted hanky on your head to protect it from the sun!
Pens in outside pockets, indeed. Oh - the shame of it :-)
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 30 Sep 13 at 15:01
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Not forgetting to wear a tie with your short-sleeved shirt !
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I buy all my formal/work shirts at TM Lewin. They all have pockets on the left breast. Am I doing something wrong? Although I'm not particularly bothered if I am.
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I like a left-side breast pocket even on white shirts. Useful for keeping small flat things handy.
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We have contactless card readers on the kitchen tills at work, and they will happily read the wrong card in my wallet (and report user unknown, whilst displaying the card number). But they are not quite the same thing as most retailers have, they're just cheap rfid readers.
But if you're worried, and if as Zero says in the real world two or more cards in your wallet stops the technology working, the answer is - get two or more cards in your wallet.
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>> I buy all my formal/work shirts at TM Lewin. They all have pockets on the
>> left breast. Am I doing something wrong? Although I'm not particularly bothered if I am.
You are non U, or at least non M. Like me. "City" shirts have no pocket and are damned annoying as far as I'm concerned, the odd ones I have bought accidentally live at the bottom of the shirt drawer. I don't put much in mine but when I want my train ticket or a business card handy, there it is.
Handy too for those cards that unlock hotel rooms. I learned to put them straight into my shirt pocket on check in after accidentally causing a couple not to work by shoving them into a pocket with a mobile phone in it. Tube and train tickets have the same vulnerability.
I have even been known to wear brown shoes.
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>> You are non U, or at least non M.
Come again? Wassat mean?
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>>
>> >> You are non U, or at least non M.
>>
>> Come again? Wassat mean?
An outdated reference, sorry.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English
Coined by one or other of the Mitfords I thought, but apparently not according to the above.
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Quick instant visual survey round male occupants of office in last 30 seconds, 6 of us, all IT, all employed by large computing company which used to employ Z, all shirts with single LH pocket, no pens or other content visible but some, me included, use them for mobile phone regularly
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>> use them for mobile phone regularly
And makes the shirt sag horribly on one side. My ex employer never had any sartorial elegance.
Unless you were a sharp suited salesman account executive.
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I love contactless cards - use mine regularly and was thrilled to be able to use it in lidl the other day - a new adopter.
Far easier in the mackyD's drive through to just wave my card to
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>>Am I doing something wrong?
Yes, buying shirts with pockets on them...
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Well, as of this afternoon I have first had experience of what happens when you go to pay by Oyster Card with a Contactless Card in the same wallet. On a bus.
It said something like "more than one card detected". So I had to get my Oyster out of my wallet and place it against the reader. Which is a PITA, because up until now it has been burried deep in my wallet, never needing to come out.
More to the point, I didn't even know I had a Contactless Card in my wallet!
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>> It said something like "more than one card detected". So I had to get my
>> Oyster out of my wallet and place it against the reader. Which is a PITA,
>> because up until now it has been burried deep in my wallet, never needing to
>> come out.
>>
>>
It's still an improvement on having to hand your card over, having them run it through an imprinter and then having to sign the slip and find somewhere to store it with all the other junk paperwork.
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>> >>Am I doing something wrong?
>>
>> Yes, buying shirts with pockets on them...
So a short sleeved shirt with a pocket and worn with a tie is black ball territory?
And while on sartorial advice what colour shoes should I wear with trousers in dark olive green?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 4 Oct 13 at 15:38
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One can not give sartorial advice to someone who goes to work with dark green olive trousers.
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>> One can not give sartorial advice to someone who goes to work with dark green
>> olive trousers.
Work for last few weeks has comprised reading through dusty old files marking the vast majority for destruction and cataloguing a few for the National Archive.
I ain't doing that in a decent whistle!! Only wear a tie in case I have to go off and meet somebody.
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That's one thing with retirement Brompie - I now wear proper walking shoes (Merrell or Salomon) almost exclusively for work - the right colour of course !
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>> One can not give sartorial advice to someone who goes to work with dark green olive trousers.
On the contrary dear boy, I have been to work today in olive green combats, Timberland yellow boots and a navy T-Shirt.
'Course, you have to have a certain panache to carry it off I'd grant...Probably not wise to try it in your condition.
;-)
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green combats and yellow timberlands?
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It's ok, I wouldn't expect you to understand. Younger people would get it...
;-)
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not when worn by an old git like you
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Git maybe, but no gut. Makes all the difference... You might be better with those elastic waisted M&S jobs. Comfortable fit I gather for those who, well, need a comfortable fit...
;-)
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Fri 4 Oct 13 at 17:31
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Well, another update. This afternoon a card reader at an underground station wouldn't read my Oyster because my contactless payment card was in close proximity. The LU operative said that soon (later this month) the system is being changed, and that the reader could take money from both my Oyster and my contactless payment card.
Either the LU man is wrong, or TfL have cocked up big time in designing a system that could take 2 payments for 1 ride!
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He meant, and you know damn well he meant, it can take money from EITHER not both.
So thats twice now you have found out the system rejects the card if it detects more than one.
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>> He meant, and you know damn well he meant, it can take money from
>> EITHER not both.
>>
No, he said BOTH. So either he is wrong or you are wrong (perish the thought!)
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Re read my answer - He MEANT either.
I am really not sure how many different ways I can say that a single transaction can not be taken from two sources at once, as your experience proves.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 9 Oct 13 at 20:57
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He said both and i think he meant both, because when I said that that would cause real problems he just smiled and shrugged his shoulders as only a LU employee can, which meant "Am I bovvered?"
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>> Re read my answer - He MEANT either.
>>
>>
>> I am really not sure how many different ways I can say that a single
>> transaction can not be taken from two sources at once, as your experience proves.
If you watch clued and tooled regular commuters they go through the ticket gates at Euston at rate of 3 every two seconds. If the reader detects two cards and says whohaa problem it creates a pile up. If it makes a snap decision to read/charge first card it detects then punters keep moving. If punter is slow and it detects Oyster then Visa sequentially it might assume they're different pax and charge twice.
This complication is of course avoided if you have a Non-U shirt pocket and keep travel cards and cash/credit cards apart.
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> If punter is slow and it detects Oyster then Visa sequentially it might assume they're different pax and charge twice.
Not possible. A bug like that would show up immediately it went live.
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>> > If punter is slow and it detects Oyster then Visa sequentially it might assume
>> they're different pax and charge twice.
>>
>> Not possible. A bug like that would show up immediately it went live.
If it can show up in live running or testing then it's possible. Do you solve it by enforcing a longer gap between detecting cards, slowing through put and creating queues, or by refunding the tiny number of punters who experience/detect/prove the problem and complain?
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It's interesting how people in the IT world think and understand the system will be designed and tested to only charge one card. And if it gets in a muddle it will fail to charge at all. I suppose if you have written computer programs you will know you have to code to deal with things. It's not 'black magic' you know. Someone has programmed this :-)
As as non programmer (I dabble) think of the logic behind how this all works. And realise it will not charge twice. Forget an Oyster card and bank/credit card... it ought to work with two Oyster cards. One should be charged.
For me... having two forms of payment (Oyster and bank/credit)... I'd want to be sure it used the former*
* I don't have an Oyster card yet.... no need for now.
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>If it can show up in live running or testing then it's possible.
OK, let me qualify that. It's a simple logic problem and double charging is only possible if the programmer earned his stripes at Lasky's or PC World.
A shortened sequence of events would be something like:
1) Zero a buffer and wait for readable card.
2) Read card data into buffer and authenticate.
3) If authenticated; show green light and pulse gate open solenoid. Otherwise; show red light for x secs and return to 1)
4) Wait for signal that gate has been used and punter is through. (Mechanical interlocks prevent multiple punters)
5) Back to 1)
There will be additional error checking at each stage but the logic is straightforward.
The old elevator logic problem given to students is more complex.
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Kevin, as someone who understands how programs work you and I (and Zero) know that to accept more than one payment card needs the system to process multiple transactions. So if we take the extreme example, if I have 5 contactless payment cards.... then I wouldn't expect adding an Oyster card to them to mean I pay 6 times! And I can't see how the application would do it anyway. The code is likely to have a linear code path so will process one card.
The main issue I can see is you get charged on the wrong card.
And years ago Barclays did a combined Oyster/bank card didn't they? Which is no longer available.
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Oyster was a pioneer and as such is not always with the emerging international standard for contactless cards.
As contactless technology becomes standard in credit/debit cards customers are going to need to organise themselves, as they do presenting a card to a retailer, to make sure the card charged is the one they intend. Be ready for wallet proliferation or people fumbling cards at the barrier.
Right now, Oyster and contact-less payment cards really need to be kept in separate wallets.
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Whats the problem? You take a card out of the wallet to push into a chip and pin reader, nothing has changed there with respect to contactless. All you really need to do is to keep your oyster separate. I have a super curved hard plastic shell for that, being curved it can sit nicely in your back pocket (not being a civil servant I don't have an ink stained shirt pocket)
I wonder why Barclaycard stopped their combined Oyster/Debit card. Seemed like an ideal solution.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 8 Oct 13 at 22:31
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>> (not being a civil servant I don't have an ink stained shirt pocket)
Caps/retractable points save anyone's shirt. Just a neat gold plated Parker 'flight' shows.
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That's the trouble with my Ramones T-Shirt too. No pockets.
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>> Oyster was a pioneer and as such is not always with the emerging international standard
>> for contactless cards.
>>
Not a true pioneer though I don't think; the JR lines on the Tokyo subway system were using contactless payment cards when we lived there in 2001, which I think is 2 or 3 years before London adopted them? The Tokyo subway does include a collection of lines owned by seperate private companies though, and it's only recently that each operators cards have worked seamlessly across other lines...
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>> The Tokyo subway does include a
>> collection of lines owned by seperate private companies though, and it's only recently that each
>> operators cards have worked seamlessly across other lines...
>>
My father worked for the railways all his life, and had a free pass that worked on all UK railways and associated undertakings.
My own, as a dependant, aroused admiration and envy among my school friends when I produced it on a Caledonian-McBrane steamship.
There was no electronic stuff of course. The purser just read the wording and had to assume it was legitimate.
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>> My own, as a dependant, aroused admiration and envy among my school friends when I
>> produced it on a Caledonian-McBrane steamship.
Reminds me of the old Scots poem
The Earth belongs unto the Lord
And all that it contains
Except the Kyles and the Western Isles
And they are all MacBrayne's
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>> It's ok, I wouldn't expect you to understand. Younger people would get it...
>>
They're welcome to it.
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One transaction could not be charged to two cards, since the transaction ID may only be used once.
The system would have to see two cards in your wallet as two consecutive and separate transactions - and that should be managed by the permitted interval between the two transactions.
What may happen is that it will charge neither and refuse to process the transaction.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 10 Oct 13 at 13:59
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Hope this isn't a daft question, but won't the system not allow, or try to make, a second transaction until it detects that someone has gone through the barrier? Or can't the hardware do that?
Last edited by: Focusless on Thu 10 Oct 13 at 14:05
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I don't know, it may well. It wasn't the UK project that I worked on, I was in Curitiba.
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Contactless payment - Zero
