Non-motoring > What has happened to us?	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Pat	Replies: 227

Wed 18 Sep 13 18:02   What has happened to us? - Pat

What has happened to these forums? There has been just 60 posts in total today at 17.15. This consists of 19 in motoring, 29 in non-motoring and 2 in computer related. There used to be far more than that. The Future Ideas forum opened almost 2 years ago, but the last post was 17 months ago and as yet, nothing has happened to any suggestions made in there….perhaps it never will. My Drive has never got off the ground…perhaps it never will. We have turned into a very small group of grouchy, opinionated regular posters who are so predictable that it becomes an effort to bother posting at all. Are we going to let it go downhill or are we going to make a bit of an effort? Use it or lose it could be the outcome. I thoroughly enjoyed Matt’s posts about starting his old Volvo, I was overjoyed to see nyx2k post again yesterday after knowing he was so ill, but did anyone ask after his health? Do we really welcome newcomers? Do we welcome old posters back after time out from the forums? Do we care? I’d like to think we do but I have wanted to post about a couple of things in the last week or so, and have not done so because of the, by now predictable, criticism and backbiting. I’d like to bet I’m not the only one who holds back for this reason…in fact I know I’m not as I’m in touch via email with a number of forum members, both past and present. Rattle’s post about ‘your first car’ was a little gem and had more replies than most posts lately, surely we could all make a little bit of effort to make posts like that now and again? I think what made that post special was that it didn’t have the possibility to become judgemental. As so many others do. I don’t know what the answer is, but I do know car4play needs to attract more posters if it is to survive and thrive. Pat Reply to this message | Report message       3

Wed 18 Sep 13 18:05   What has happened to us? - BiggerBadderDave

Busy. Deadlines. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 18 Sep 13 18:11   What has happened to us? - RattleandSmoke

This site has become the old pub that looks scruffy on the outside and hardly any new comers will come in because they won't feel welcome. It is great to see some younger people on here but I think age is a bit of an issue. Until recently I was one of the youngest people on here and I am into my early 30s now. It would great to see more young people post on here who were perhaps born when last carb engined cars were made. It would be a great compliment to the people here who passed their test in an Austin Seven. I think we need more technical posts to encourage people to join. I joined HJ because I was having problems with my first car 'Rattle'. There is very little content on here which means I would have found the site now. I think social media has also made forums become less popular as well, it isn't just this site that is seeing less traffic. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 18 Sep 13 19:27   What has happened to us? - Dulwich Estate

"........and have not done so because of the, by now predictable, criticism and backbiting." That's my reason. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 18 Sep 13 19:42   What has happened to us? - MJW1994

I came to this website from a Google search, I can’t remember what I was searching for now, I think it was car warranties. I felt welcome so I don’t think that is the reason. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 18 Sep 13 20:17   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

Not just here Pat. There was a thread in the other place where I was having a reasonable exchange with GB and another trucker about cycle safety around HGVs. A previously uninvolved (in that debate) poster came in with a strongly ad hominem attack aimed at me but equally applicable to anyone else defending pedal bikers perspective and rights. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 18 Sep 13 at 20:22 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:55   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

>> "........ and have not done so because of the, by now predictable, criticism and backbiting." It doesn't have to be like that. I visit a motoring forum where the members are all polite and never have a go at other members. Car4play is unfortunate in having a (very) small number of members who think they are superior and who seem to get their kicks by being provocative. They get away with it because this is an internet forum in which everyone is a faceless stranger. They think they're clever in being able to get away with it. I'd just like to meet them face-to-face and see how clever they are in that situation. Reply to this message | Report message       7

Wed 18 Sep 13 20:20   What has happened to us? - Manatee

Fair comment Pat, perhaps not exactly as I would have put it but more than a grain of truth. Rattle's is a good observation too. I wouldn't characterise the badinage for the most part as backbiting though. There's a lot of mutual support here with all sorts of questions. But it doesn't take much unpleasantness to taint the experience. A group of people who all know each other becomes a clique; they might not be deliberately unwelcoming, and I don't think we are here - but I'm sure it feels that way when you are on the receiving end of it. Am I being too predictable? Sorry:) Edit. Bromp reminds me of what I perceive as some quite 'off' comments here re 'cyclists'. To the point where I declined to participate in one thread, on a subject I am very interested in. We should all look for the mote in our own eye. Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 18 Sep 13 at 20:22 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 18 Sep 13 22:44   What has happened to us? - tyro

>> But it doesn't take much unpleasantness to taint the experience. That is a pretty shrewd comment, Manatee. Profound, in fact. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 18 Sep 13 20:53   What has happened to us? - Zero

>> We have turned into a very small group of grouchy, opinionated regular posters who are >> so predictable that it becomes an effort to bother posting at all. The question is, should I be offended by being called, how does it go? oh yes. Grouchy opinionated and and predictable. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 18 Sep 13 21:09   What has happened to us? - MJW1994

<< grouchy, opinionated Sounds just like the office! Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 18 Sep 13 21:36   What has happened to us? - Robin O'Reliant

We're having a quiet week, but it has been fairly busy at other times. All in all it's fairly civilised in this place compared to other forums I've used. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Wed 18 Sep 13 22:23   What has happened to us? - tyro

Well, I see this will be my 48th post in 12 months, so I've not been doing much to keep things going. I don't come here very often. Partly it's because I've been very busy in recent months. Partly it's because I always get bored of things, go away for a while and then come back. In the old days of HJ I would disappear for months on end. Partly it's because while this place is civilised compared to most, there are times when I find it to be rude and dismissive - and that sort of puts me off. I thought it was a bad sign when Espada felt that this was not the sort of place he wanted to be, and the day he left was a very sad day. Most fora are like that, of course. It was the same at HJ's in the old days. But, to be honest, I felt - and still feel - that the strict moderation in the Backroom was reasonable at keeping that in check. I always thought that the moderation in the Backroom in the old days was first rate (well, mostly!) - but I'm probably a lone voice on that one. But it is also because when I come back here, it just doesn't seem to be as interesting as it was in the old days. Yes, there have been some very good threads - Rattle's thread on the basicness (what is the noun for basic?) of first cars, and Oldgits Ford or VW thread - but on the whole it just doesn't grab me. And part of that is due to a problem which always looked likely from the inception of this forum - the problem of lack of newcomers. HJ had a regular turnover. People came to the Backroom from the main HJ site from the Telegraph - in their hundreds. How are people supposed to find this forum? It's just another car forum. And so as people drift away, they are not replaced, there is little new blood, and we feel that we've discussed everything already. I am a bit reluctant to say this, but I actually feel that when this forum parted company with the Backroom we lost one first rate forum and got two which were merely good. Sigh. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Thu 19 Sep 13 00:00   What has happened to us? - bathtub tom

>>The question is, should I be offended by being called, how does it go? oh yes. Grouchy opinionated and and predictable. I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would accept you. With apologies to Groucho (I think). Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 18 Sep 13 22:39   What has happened to us? - Westpig

>> I’d like to think we do but I have wanted to post about a couple >> of things in the last week or so, and have not done so because of >> the, by now predictable, criticism and backbiting. >> >> I’d like to bet I’m not the only one who holds back for this reason…in >> fact I know I’m not as I’m in touch via email with a number of >> forum members, both past and present. I very much agree that this element holds people back. I've had an interesting change in life circs over the past year or so...and done something totally different that would be most relevant to chat about on a car based forum...but have no intention of discussing it on here because of the inevitable negativity that would go with it. Those people know who they are. I'd like to think I can argue a case like the best of them..but, increasingly cannot be bothered. I find myself using the site less and less. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Wed 18 Sep 13 23:25   What has happened to us? - Armel Coussine

>> Those people know who they are. >> I'd like to think I can argue a case like the best of them..but, increasingly cannot be bothered. That would be a loss Wp. People can take things too much to heart here. Disagreement can come to seem like a savage unpleasant attack sometimes, when that may not be the intention at all. It's nearly always crystal clear when a comment is intended as a wounding putdown. The problem people have is accepting that they may be wrong, or have expressed something incorrectly. If they can't do that they are trying to avoid communication between real equals. And given that some people can't resist probing one's nostrils, one can always brush them off or pretend not to notice. As for yr semi-retirement community charitable driving gig, I'd love to read all the dirt on it, and I bet I am not alone in that. Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 18 Sep 13 at 23:27 Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 18 Sep 13 23:50   What has happened to us? - Armel Coussine

It occurs to me that I do more and longer posts than most people here. I am also aware of repeating myself often, telling the same stories more than once, generally behaving like the sozzled old retired repertory actor propping up the corner of the bar. Naturally I don't mean to cause offence. It's just that for me, the agreeable change of mentality is just a keystroke or two away from anything I may be doing for a living, so a constant temptation between paras or even sentences. I take Pat's point about the small population here. I know well three people who might easily be here but aren't. One can't work a computer and is a bit off colour, the second is a movie film crew man who doesn't have time to scribble, and the third might be persuaded but is a Yorkshireman so don't hold your breath. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 00:41   What has happened to us? - Armel Coussine

I agree with virtually everything tyro says in his long post above. Always approved of HJ and liked the forum, no different from this one really except in the important ways mentioned. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 19:20   What has happened to us? - Westpig

>> That would be a loss Wp. >> >> People can take things too much to heart here. Don't get me wrong AC. I like a challenge, I particularly like a well informed alternative viewpoint (even if I disagree). If I may use Bromptonaut as an example...there are some things, the most obvious being cycling, that we are poles apart on..yet I respect his viewpoint. He is passionate about the subject matter and fights his corner with informed comment..now I happen to disagree, but so what? It would be a boring old world if we all agreed on everything. It's the negative tits that are plain unpleasant that I find wearing. I suppose that must be in the same camp as trolls...and I've never understood why any site would put up with it/them. Last edited by: Westpig on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 19:20 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 19 Sep 13 20:27   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

WP Thanks for that endorsement. Some oik posting as 'Ben10' in HJ described me as follows: Just have to criticise cyclists on here and a certain person is straight on defending their actions to the hilt. He will not listen to any negative points about them and will act like a dog with a bone. Those new on here are warned. He is spoiling for a tussle on the motorists opinions about cyclists. Right or wrong. The same arguments from him over and over. He never concedes that cyclists are to blame for many issues on the road. And wont listen to negative views. One tries not to take personal carp too seriously and I responded in 'whatever' mode but it did bother me slightly. Consequently, I'm really chuffed to be quoted as an exemplar by somebody with whom I often find myself in conflict on here. Sometimes wonder if arguing unpopular stances whether as a Labour supporter or a cyclist I'm part of the problem. Faith restored. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 23:07   What has happened to us? - bathtub tom

>>Sometimes wonder if arguing unpopular stances whether as a Labour supporter or a cyclist I'm part of the problem. I don't support your views, but I defend to the hilt your right to express them. I'm sure that's (nearly) a quote from somewhere, perhaps AC or someone could verify? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 23:20   What has happened to us? - WillDeBeest

Voltaire, BT. And not hilt: death. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 08:04   What has happened to us? - tyro

Voltaire, BT. And not hilt: death. Usually attributed to Voltaire, but more probably it was Evelyn Beatrice Hall. The sentiment, by the way, is one that is becoming increasingly uncommon these days, as the new ideology seems to be "I am offended by what you say, and I think that we should pass a law to make sure anyone who says such offensive things should go to jail." But I digress. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 23:47   What has happened to us? - Mr. Ecs

Bromptonaut, I read both sites and looked up this thread. I don't always agree with you either, as this is a motoring site. But give the person his/her due, they didn't actually name you or your moniker. Are you sure it was you it was aimed at. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 10:26   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> Bromptonaut, >> >> I read both sites and looked up this thread. >> I don't always agree with you either, as this is a motoring site. But give >> the person his/her due, they didn't actually name you or your moniker. Are you sure >> it was you it was aimed at. I'm positive it was pitched at me. Noone else there was doing a proper pitch for the cycling lobby. Crossed swords with Ben10 before; challenged some of his 'cyclists are a menace to humanity' observations as straying well beyond bias confirmation. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 04:04   What has happened to us? - Pat

I feel exactly the same about bromp too:) We clash...quite often, but it's always informative for us both, I think to see things from an opposite view point. We never fall out, and I hope we never will. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 07:24   What has happened to us? - Duncan

As Rattle said; this forum is very much like a pub. Nondescript on the outside and on the inside perhaps not terribly welcoming to newcomers. Inside, after a while, you gradually warm to people. We have the, sometimes, long-winded bloke in the corner, would I call him pompous? No, of course not! Well, alright, sometimes perhaps just a little bit. We have two or three who get very huffy and sometimes rude if they think someone has scored a point over them. We have at least one poster who can get rather shrill if they think they are being put down. We have several regulars whose posts are always a joy to read. The newby MJW1994(?) is a good example. All in all I think it's a good balance. Would it be better if there were ten times as many posts? Yes, of course, but we all have other lives to lead. The one thing that does concern me slightly is the number of new people who post once and we never hear from them again. Have a look at the Welcome section to see what I mean. Like a lot of others, I was bought from HJ. Today I had a peek in there, the first time for about three months or so. I have to tell you it's very quiet over there. I logged in and discovered that my last post on HJ was in March 2010! One thing I did notice in the other place is that lots of threads seem to be old threads which someone has revived fairly recently. I think this place is not dissimilar to most membership organisations nowadays. They are all struggling to recruit and retain members. I don't think we have too much to worry about. I shall make a resolution to post more frequently with tales of Wetherspoons establishments that I have visited. You would all like that wouldn't you? Did I tell you that I had lunch in The Regent in Walton on Thames recently? Fish, chips and garden peas, with tartare sauce and a wedge of lemon - with a glass of Pepsi. How much? go on, guess! £4.99 it was. How's that for value? Last edited by: Duncan on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 07:27 Reply to this message | Report message       4

Thu 19 Sep 13 07:28   What has happened to us? - WillDeBeest

There has been just 60 posts in total today at 17.15. This consists of 19 in motoring, 29 in non-motoring and 2 in computer related. ...and the other ten in Mental Arithmetic, Pat? };---) There's an economic side to the forum's apparent stagnation, too. We need something to discuss, which generally means change - whether of car, job, travel patterns, floor mats. For three years or more now, those of us fortunate enough to have a job have been in head-down mode, fixated on doing what we can to stop our incomes falling further behind the cost of living. Scale that up to a whole forum's worth of people and you have a decline in subject matter. But Pat and Rats are right, and we do need new contributors to keep things fresh. People will inevitably leave for all sorts of reasons - and my memory of Espada's departure is that it was more about him than about us - so perhaps we should think of how we could make the forum more appealing so it might attract new visitors. Some pictures might help - it's a weakness here that pictures have to be posted to another site and linked to. But mostly it's George Osborne's fault. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 08:03   What has happened to us? - tyro

"my memory of Espada's departure is that it was more about him than about us " It was about both. It always is. It is about how he perceived this forum. And the fact of the matter is that he perceived this forum as being rather different from the Backroom. The point is that he was, for years, apparently quite happy in the Backroom. And he is still there. More to the point, his contributions were always thoughtful and helpful. When we lose someone like that, yes, we naturally ask questions about them. But we need to ask questions about ourselves, too. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 19 Sep 13 10:02   What has happened to us? - WillDeBeest

As I remember, Espada has one cherished political idea that - to put it mildly - not all of us share. Not a problem on HJ, where the rigid moderation keeps out any politics that aren't those of HJ himself. Over here we think and speak more freely, so Espada encountered differing opinions, which he seemed to take as a personal, or even - absurdly - a racial affront. That is his problem, not ours, and we will do ourselves no favours by becoming HJ's Mini-Me. Those who prefer his style can enjoy it over there; we'd be better off learning some new tricks than copying someone else's old ones. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 10:21   What has happened to us? - tyro

"That is his problem, not ours" Well, I think that it is our problem, too. My views on the said political idea are radically different from Espada's - but I knew that he felt strongly about it, and would take it personally, and so I didn't bother expressing my opinion on the matter. And if, for any reason, I had chosen to express views on the subject, I would have phrased in very carefully, because to fail to do so is, IMHO, discourteous and insensitive. And yes, we are all, at times not as courteous or sensitive as we should be - but at least we can try. Reply to this message | Report message       4

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:42   What has happened to us? - Armel Coussine

>> if, for any reason, I had chosen to express views on the subject, I would have phrased in very carefully, because to fail to do so is, IMHO, discourteous and insensitive. You can only go so far to sugar a pill like (for example) a rational distaste for Israeli racism and aggressive expansionism. It's perfectly possible to hold these views without being anti-Semitic. I do myself. Personalizing political discussion, and trying to sabotage it by suddenly adopting a victim posture, is a childish tactic and utterly pointless. Either we are adults here, able to treat each other as equals, or we aren't. If we aren't, then we must restrict ourselves to chitchat about the latest Focus facelift and leave the grown-up stuff to grown-ups. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:34   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> It was about both. It always is. It is about how he perceived this forum. >> And the fact of the matter is that he perceived this forum as being rather >> different from the Backroom. >> >> The point is that he was, for years, apparently quite happy in the Backroom. And >> he is still there. More to the point, his contributions were always thoughtful and helpful. >> When we lose someone like that, yes, we naturally ask questions about them. But we >> need to ask questions about ourselves, too. Espada was interesting both for his views about cars and his professional perspective as a Chartered Surveyor. It was very easy to work out his real name and I suspect I'd spoken to him on business occasionally. We certainly used his firm at one time for property management in North West. Not sure I've been aware of him posting in HJ but he's on some of the Pprune forums from time to time. I asked him there about not being in here and he mentioned what he perceived as anti-semitism by one poster. My recollection was more of a game of two halves. Some of his posts implied a Zionist streak and that was inevitably going to get a response from those supporting or sympathising with the Palestinian side. The comments I've seen were anti Israel rather than anti judaism. There's no 'ignore' facility on this site and I won't use it in places where it's offerred as it just makes stuff difficult to follow. We might however all choose not to rise to particular bait. 'Whatever' can occasionally be a useful closedown. The rail guard from Arriva XC (Hobby?) is also sadly missed. He certainly took umbrage at personal comments at least partially made in jest. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Thu 19 Sep 13 08:14   What has happened to us? - Pat

>>There has been just 60 posts in total today at 17.15. This consists of 19 in motoring, 29 in non-motoring and 2 in computer related. ...and the other ten in Mental Arithmetic, Pat? };---) << Not guilty M'Lud (M'WildeB) I just took the figures from the top of the forum page and I couldn't work it out either! Perhaps the mods had got the hump (not Humph) and deleted our posts;) Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 09:05   What has happened to us? - Dog

I've held back from saying this for quite some considerable time but, I feel now is the time to put these thoughts into werds. I wonder if Zero's posts containing links to steam trains might put potential new posters orf, or (you know who you are) those who post recipes containing meat which those of a vegetarian persuasion might find offall putting. And, then there's those blimmin edumacated types who post l-o-n-g posts containing e-v-e-n l-o-n-g-e-r werds that some of us mere-mortlas might even have to look up the meaning thereof. And then there's the Dutchman, have you ever wondered why out of all the tens of millions of flying Dutchman in all the world, there's only one of this forum? Sure I well remember 1688 and all that, but lets let bygones be bygones shall we. In the final analysis, so on and so forth, it may be worth considering contacting esteemed previous members of C4P such as Bellboy, NowWheels, the Vicar of Bray, oldnotbold, Servelan, Cheddar, Iffy, Herr Sandwichmann, Uncle Tom Cobley et al, to see if they would consider rejoining the madhouse, for which we would be prepared to offer life-long membership of the Liberal Democrat party - at a reduced rate. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 10:13   What has happened to us? - Alanovich

>> This consists of 19 in motoring, 29 in non-motoring This is the nub of the problem. There has become an imbalance on the motoring vs non-motoring stuff. And it's in non-motoring where the narkiness and squabbling happens. There's not enough content going in to motoring, and too much in non-motoring. What was set up as a Motoring Forum has become diverted and the motoring aspect is becoming secondary to the other. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 10:22   What has happened to us? - tyro

Agree with Alanović. That's twice today. And on non-motoring matters!!!! Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 10:24   What has happened to us? - Crankcase

Given that I post almost exclusively in non-motoring, I have to read that as my posts being not very welcome. Which is fine, but as I'm not going to be posting much in motoring I guess I'll refrain from posting at all. (Cheering from back of house). Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 10:28   What has happened to us? - Alanovich

CC, I post a lot in non-motoring too. I'm not saying it's not welcome, it's just that there's not enough of the motoring across the board. It's not your fault or anyone's in isolation. It's a failing of the motoring forum. Please don't stop something you enjoy just because of an opinion from one person, I put it out there as part of this discussion, not to make anyone feel unwelcome. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Thu 19 Sep 13 10:44   What has happened to us? - Crankcase

Thanks A - and I think my post came over as bit more "it's so unfair, I'm a petulant teenager" than I intended. Right, off to start a thread about sixteenth century hairstyles and their relevance to Ethiopian diplomacy. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Fri 20 Sep 13 08:42   What has happened to us? - Cliff Pope

>> happens. >> >> There's not enough content going in to motoring, and too much in non-motoring. >> >> What was set up as a Motoring Forum has become diverted and the motoring aspect >> is becoming secondary to the other. >> That's a good point, I hadn't thought of before. I do notice when comparing other forums that those that have a strong special pull tend to be much nicer than those that are far-ranging. Just some examples: Volvo owners forum, Series II landrover, Classic Boat, Period Buildings, Garden Law, Taxation Web, Motley Fool, Citywire, are all friendly and informative, chatty, welcoming of newcomers, but quite a lot of banter between regulars. Money Expert - carping, back-biting, point-scoring, full of trolling stirrers. (Except, curiously, the Pensions sub-forum) The Car4Play forum is I thnk unusual in having no very definite focus -"cars" is a bit vague - yet stays largely friendly. It does have a pubby feel, which is good. Perhaps that is exactly the right analogy, and dates from its origins. We all used to go to the HJ Arms, but the landlord got a bit overbearing and some of the bar staff annoying, so most of us sloped off to the C4P Inn, a free house in a back alley where they still have sawdust on the floor and a real fire. A few suggestions: 1) People should not use names or nicknames of posters they know privately, only the names that posters actually use. If someone posts as Fred Bloggs, certainly call him Fred. But if he posts under a nickname don't try and be superior by showing that you know he is really Fred. 2) Perhaps any new poster should get some personal welcoming messages from a few people? I don't like a separate "Introduce Yourself" section - no one looks at it, and it is too formal. But a "By the way, welcome to C4P" before going on to address the subject always goes down well. Could a new member or newish post be identified in some way? I don't want to welcome a rarely-posting old-timer out of ignorance. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 10:45   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

>>>The Future Ideas forum Now I can't see that forum on the home page and suspect it would be connected to a request a while ago for selected folks who would sign up to some "secret" way forward group. I remember thinking at the time to move the forum forward an inner circle of an already small bunch would be the last folks you'd ask... it's those potential visitors that don't visit who's opinions are needed.... or at least ALL the members. When folks migrated here from HJ the group quickly re-established into a tight community already set in its ways. That was very different to the early days on HJ where there was a genuine uplifting pioneering spirit where it was very much a level playing field for the different posters. I look in frequently but post far less than I might and often don't bother to post quite interesting car stuff for similar reasons to others obove who visit even less frequently. I have tried over the years to encourage others to join but they lurk for a few days and leave reporting a feeling they will not fit in with the fractious and vocal core group. I take the point about other social media changing forum use but it hasn't stopped the frequent, enthusiastic, good natured and helpful posts on the Alfa forum and the two boating related forums I use. The answer... I don't know... perhaps leave things as they are for the few if the site owners are content.... or a radical overhaul and some lively promotion that will attract new motoring enthusiasts of a broad age range?? Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 10:48 Reply to this message | Report message       4

Thu 19 Sep 13 10:56   What has happened to us? - Focusless

>> >>>The Future Ideas forum >> >> Now I can't see that forum on the home page and suspect it would be >> connected to a request a while ago for selected folks who would sign up to >> some "secret" way forward group. I wondered about that too, but I suspect Pat is talking about a thread that I vaguely remember but haven't found (yet) where people made suggestions. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:02   What has happened to us? - Focusless

>> I wondered about that too, but I suspect Pat is talking about a thread that >> I vaguely remember but haven't found (yet) where people made suggestions. This one? www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=28 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:01   What has happened to us? - Duncan

>> I look in frequently but post far less than I might and often don't bother >> to post Well, according to your profile you post 2.66 times a day. I post 1.35 times a day. These figures are not available for everyone - why is that? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:03   What has happened to us? - Focusless

>> These figures are not available for everyone - why is that? Depends whether you opt to hide your profile or not. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:05   What has happened to us? - Clk Sec

>>Depends whether you opt to hide your profile or not. My profile is hidden but my posting figures are not. Not that I'm bothered. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:03   What has happened to us? - Clk Sec

>>These figures are not available for everyone - why is that? I think that particular figure can be removed if you so wish. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:05   What has happened to us? - Focusless

Yeah sorry it's the "Display my usage statistics" setting, not "Allow other users to view my profile". Last edited by: Focusless on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 11:06 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:15   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

>> I look in frequently but post far less than I might and often don't bother to post >> Well, according to your profile you post 2.66 times a day. Fair point but I really meant that I don't bother to start many new threads about motoring issues I've seen and experienced... I just dip in with a quick comment on an existing thread. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:12   What has happened to us? - VxFan

>> These figures are not available for everyone They are if you've got a magic wand next to your username ;) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:08   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

>> What has happened to these forums? >> Whatever happened to the likely lads? ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:18   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

>> I wondered about that too, but I suspect Pat is talking about a thread that I vaguely remember but haven't found (yet) where people made suggestions. >>This one? www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=28 I was thinking of this thread from a few months later in 2010.... www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=3690&v=f ... where Car4Play said... "We would like some of you to contribute in new ways in the future to make this all work. We were hoping the rating system etc. would have helped us choose who we could trust to do this but this isn't really doing it at the moment. What is encouraging is that many of you are excited by the prospect of helping to move this place on" Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 11:45   What has happened to us? - commerdriver

I think Rattle was right earlier on (did I just say that?? :-)) when he said about motoring threads being an attraction that people find in a search. More motoring threads are more likely to catch people who are googling motoring related things and who might be likely to stay once they find us. That's how I, and I guess many others, ended up in the backroom back in the dark ages. getting people to stay once they have found us is a different issue. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 12:00   What has happened to us? - diddy1234

in the past two years I flick between this site and HJ. HJ site seems to have more churn of people's input's but I do seem to get a more honest answers on this site to any questions (Even if I do ask a stupid question and should be called an idiot). At the end of the day, Id rather have a correct answer to a question than dig through 6 pages of carp. lol Last edited by: diddy1234 on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 12:01 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 12:22   What has happened to us? - madf

My experience is that motoring holds lesser appeal as I grow older, the traffic gets worse, and my wife has to have a second replacement hip joint :-( so I end up with more chores at times. And my eyesight is getting worse...especially when tired. Plus cars have become more sanitised, I am more interested in beekeeping Spring to Summer and my ability to type without typos has deteriorated with age. Even the Toyota Yaris forums have fewer posts - but then they rarely had many as not much ever went wrong - even the 12 year old cars still keep going with just basic maintenance.. I guess I am growing old. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:25   What has happened to us? - Mapmaker

Who cares about cars these days. Ten years ago on HJ, people were driving Porches. Teenagers were buying 5 series. etc. Nowadays, people aren't doing anything like that. The few petrolheads have gone to pistonheads. You can't get your car over 30mph, owing to traffic. Even if you wanted to, you cannot afford the fuel. Steam trains are more interesting. And after a decade or more, what's left to be said? I've got quite bored of forums. That's why I don't post very much. (And I've discovered internet blocking software, which helps work-time productivity no end!) Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:53   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

>>>Who cares about cars these days.... You can't get your car over 30mph, owing to traffic. Even if you wanted to, you cannot afford the fuel. Steam trains are more interesting. If you've been a car nut for years that's a shame and an attitude related to location I guess? Within minutes of our house you can be having the drive of your life largely unaffected by others. Fuel costs are high but when 130mph+ cars will do around 50mpg that balances it out. When Mr F snr owned fast saloons in the 70s 24mpg was the norm. Steam trains... don't forget the expense of cameras, tripods and Mountain Warehouse budget waterproofs. Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 13:54 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:04   What has happened to us? - corax

Perhaps the forum title 'Car4Play - a passion for motoring' should be changed. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:05   What has happened to us? - Alanovich

Now that I do agree with. It's a bit NSFW if you've got URL scanning on your work's network. Could flag up as dodgy. Always struck me as a poor choice of name. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:10   What has happened to us? - corax

It makes me cringe, I find it hard to mention it to friends :) Reply to this message | Report message       2

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:15   What has happened to us? - Alanovich

That too. I've never mentioned it to anyone. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:28   What has happened to us? - TheManWithNoName

I don't post so much because by the time I do, thread drift or a hijack has taken place and what started out as a question regarding which gearbox oil has turned into a survey about which type of string-backed driving gloves go best with my new winter tyre collection! p.s Round or triangular teabags...which is best? :-) Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:30   What has happened to us? - Alanovich

>> p.s Round or triangular teabags...which is best? >> >> :-) I think you mean round or pyramidal. ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:36   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

>> >> p.s Round or triangular teabags...which is best? >> >> >> >> :-) >> >> I think you mean round or pyramidal. >> >> ;-) >> Round is two-dimensional, pyramidal is three-dimensional, so in a comparison triangular is correct. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:45   What has happened to us? - Alanovich

What bizarre logic. There are round teabags, and pyramidal teabags. Why would you have to call the pyramids triangles when comparing the two? Also worth mentioning, the round ones are three dimensional, as they bulge and have (limited) depth. It should also be noted, square teabags are also available. ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:55   What has happened to us? - madf

Pyramidal teabags hold the secrets of the universe in them... locked deep in the inner core...(Sounds like an advert for Insanity) Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 08:48   What has happened to us? - Cliff Pope

>> Pyramidal teabags hold the secrets of the universe in them... locked deep in the inner >> core... >> I'm a free spirit. I like loose tea. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 13:59   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

>> What bizarre logic. I wish I hadn't said anything. Pat is right. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:03   What has happened to us? - Alanovich

>> >> What bizarre logic. >> >> I wish I hadn't said anything. Pat is right. >> Oh come on L'es, winky smiley in my post? Put there to indicate tongue-in-cheek. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:08   What has happened to us? - Pat

Sshhhh, I like being right for once! ....and I agree with you about the name car4play too. Apart from the obvious innuendo it also gives the impression that it isn't for the serious car enthusiast. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:14   What has happened to us? - Focusless

Pat - did you spot Fenlander's post above asking what you meant by 'The Future Ideas forum' in your original post? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:50   What has happened to us? - Pat

Yes I did, but the dreadful non disclosure document meant it more tactful to ignore it! Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:53   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

Ahh well that post tells us what we need to know. :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:54   What has happened to us? - Focusless

>> Yes I did, but the dreadful non disclosure document meant it more tactful to ignore >> it! Ah ok - understood ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:18   What has happened to us? - Crankcase

I may be a bit naive, but I know L'es does from time to time like to look things up in places like the Urban Dictionary. I implore him and others not to look up anything to do with teabags. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:22   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

>> I may be a bit naive, but I know L'es does from time to time >> like to look things up in places like the Urban Dictionary. I'm only trying to increase my vocabulary and bring it up-to-date. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:54   What has happened to us? - Crankcase

>> I'm only trying to increase my vocabulary and bring it up-to-date. I'm only trying to save you from a mental image I regret I stumbled over, good sir. :) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:21   What has happened to us? - bathtub tom

>> look things up in places like the Urban Dictionary. I implore him and others not to look up anything to do with teabags I wish I hadn't. Like a 'wet paint' sign, isn't it? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:31   What has happened to us? - Manatee

The pyramids aren't really pyramids are they? I haven't any here to inspect, but aren't they tubes with the ends clamped together at right angles to each other? Teapigs call theirs "tea temples". Round ones are (very) oblate spheroids* with a seam resembling the rings of Uranus (no offence intended). *As is the entire teabag-shape discussion, arguably. ;) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:17   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

I bit my tongue and deleted my post. Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 14:20 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:22   What has happened to us? - devonite

OOOH Naughty!!! ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:22   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

>>>Pat - did you spot Fenlander's post above asking what you meant by 'The Future Ideas forum' in your original post? I wondered too... perhaps the inner inner circle were sworn to secrecy? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:26   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> I wondered too... perhaps the inner inner circle were sworn to secrecy? How many volunteered for 'inner circle' but were put off by requirement for a confidentiality agreement signed before a witness. I certainly was. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:28   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

>>>put off by requirement for a confidentiality agreement signed before a witness. I certainly was. Really... I was sort of joking. If true I'm sorry but the site owners have dropped in my estimation. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:34   What has happened to us? - helicopter

Speaking for myself, what with holidays and work I really have not had the time to post and frankly find very few posts that interest me these days ..... I do lurk and read but usually find it is the same old same old....... Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:36   What has happened to us? - Focusless

>> How many volunteered for 'inner circle' but were put off by requirement for a confidentiality >> agreement signed before a witness. I certainly was. Did put me off a bit, but in the end it was just the worry I'd waste even more time here than I do already, which is too much :) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 14:36   What has happened to us? - Manatee

>> >> I wondered too... perhaps the inner inner circle were sworn to secrecy? >> >> How many volunteered for 'inner circle' but were put off by requirement for a confidentiality >> agreement signed before a witness. I certainly was. Me too. I am working under three different ones at the moment, none of which needed to be witnessed. I've never seen one that was and I've seen a few. I usually offer my own, which uses the template of the Professional Contractors Group to which I subscribe. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:03   What has happened to us? - movilogo

Perhaps the webmasters can shed some light on how a new visitor discovers this site. Most people just don't know that this site exists! Contrary to what others think, I find members in this forum very cordial. People are sober and rudeness is few and far between. Just have a look at Pistonhead forum to get an idea of how rude people can be! Any forum becomes not so exciting after some time. People's priorities change, they develop different interests etc. Personally I visit this forum less often just because got busy with other things. I used to visit MSE forums regularly in the past but nowadays I rarely visit that forum too. >> My experience is that motoring holds lesser appeal as I grow older Same thing happened with me :-) I have now started considering car as white goods. In my childhood, I often wished of having a dream car. Now I can afford some of them (eg an old Porsche) but I lost interest and spending money on other stuff (like a bigger house, kids education etc.) became higher priority tasks. Last edited by: movilogo on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 16:07 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:17   What has happened to us? - WillDeBeest

I hate the name too. It's teenage-crass, embarrassing. I've never shown it to anyone either, and the name is a big part of that. If it's putting me off spreading the word, how many people see a link or a search hit and don't fancy following it because of that awful, naff domain name? Why have we put up with it this long? Readers' competition for a new name to be be in place by Christmas! Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:23   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

Me too. No prude here but our teen girls have been able to rip me without mercy over it. Like when they have friends round and use the PC, only to exclaim Dad's been on his foreplay site again. I always explain but it sound lame. Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 16:24 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:25   What has happened to us? - Pat

The prize should be the opening of My Drive! Let's face it, if the *owners won't do any improvements we have to do them ourselves:) Pat *Cue an angry post from Stephen Khoo...;) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:29   What has happened to us? - Alanovich

www.mydrive.co.uk is an available domain name. ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:34   What has happened to us? - Pat

Now that is a good idea for a start...shall I start a new thread for domain names? Or will I upset anyone? I've got broad shoulder so I will do anyway:) Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:37   What has happened to us? - Manatee

Well, I don't know what happened to us Pat but you seem to have fixed it. 259 posts today as I write this. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:42   What has happened to us? - Pat

Good! We've got our mojo back and now there is nothing we can't do! I'd awarded myself a day off today to be in the garden...thank goodness it has rained most of the day:) Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 16:56   What has happened to us? - Roger.

This sensitivity from people about postings on internet fora surprises me somewhat. I've had a fair bit of stick from some quarters here, but does it bother me ? No it doesn't. I admit that I have rethought my answers to some posts, before pressing the "post" button, in the realisation that there are some people whose psyche is such that personal offence is taken very quickly with "flounces" being the result! After all - it's only t'internet innit? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 18:43   What has happened to us? - Mr. Ecs

You can see why people are put off from here, by the posters in this thread. The same names dominate the site. People come on here for advice like in technical, and are beaten down. Like the Focus Clutch thread. If you want newcomers to seek advice, who may have no idea about cars, give them a chance. And the benefit of your advice. They want support not badgering. There are too many high brow posters who jump on posts when people can't express themselves to their standards. Whenever a regular poster is criticised for content, especially from a newbie, the long term regulars jump in to defend. Too much of the politics on here is right of centre which drowns out alternative views. And lastly, some people just have enough of certain people who tend to dominate the lists of topics and responses, and drift away. Those that stand out for me are Zero, AC, Rattle. I know they are the backbone with some other regulars, but they have cheesed off enough from here, and it's starting to be recognised at last. I'm afraid this realisation of a floundering site PDA is its death knell. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 18:57   What has happened to us? - Pat

>> I'm afraid this realisation of a floundering site PDA is its death knell. << Is that wishful thinking by any chance Mr ECS? Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 19:13   What has happened to us? - Mr. Ecs

No. I want it to flourish. Yet the way you responded to my post is exactly what I'm talking about. Respond properly Pat. Don't just have a pop. It's that attitude on here that's putting others off. It's got to the stage where you don't realise you're doing it. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Thu 19 Sep 13 19:23   What has happened to us? - madf

Frankly compared to Collos 25 on HJ, no-one here holds a candle for rudeness and general obnoxiousness- (at times, sometimes quite charming) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 21:02   What has happened to us? - Dutchie

Funny about Collos madf he has always been ok with me.He used to be under a different name I'm sure it is Andy from Bradford.He lives in Dresden married to A German lady. I do agree politics on here is very right wing.I remember on a Dutch television program they where discussing British politics and they couldn't believe how some of the austerity measures didn't cause a public uprising.Anyway that is politics.Regarding driving I love driving the CP4 Grand Picasso like a big cargo ship.>:) Hello Dog.Hup Holland Hup laat de leeuw niet in zijn hempje staan. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 21:31   What has happened to us? - Robin O'Reliant

>> I do agree politics on here is very right wing. >> Mainly middle aged professional members, it would hardly be Workers Revolutionary Party. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 19 Sep 13 22:03   What has happened to us? - Dog

>>Hello Dog.Hup Holland Hup laat de leeuw niet in zijn hempje staan. www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQPSI0fXqcs ;) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 22:48   What has happened to us? - Roger.

Goodness me - I get the distinct impression that we have some quite left-wing inhabitants here! Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 23:01   What has happened to us? - WillDeBeest

In much the same way as everything seems uphill from Pat's house, Roger... Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 19 Sep 13 23:03   What has happened to us? - Roger.

>> In much the same way as everything seems uphill from Pat's house, Roger... >> :-) ☺ Last edited by: Roger on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 23:04 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 04:26   What has happened to us? - Pat

I do apologise Mr ECS, it wasn't meant like that and maybe I should have added a smiley. I was trying to rescue dinner from the oven having given too much time yesterday to this forum! If I can use this as an example though it does show how something typed can be taken in a completely different context than if it was spoken. It probably happens to me more often because the more I feel I get to know everyone on here, I talk as I would in the type of situation I've been used to all of my working life..in a transport yard holding my own with a bunch of lorry drivers! It does have advantages, I don't take offence easily and flounce though, but it does serve to get me misunderstood. Coming from a female probably makes it worse but I am what I am. I wouldn't like to see anyone leave this forum, and don't think any blame should be attached to anyone. Pointing fingers at individuals isn't going to help and we're all part of the problem in as much that we take this place for granted. There are loud ones, grouchy ones, sensible ones, predictable ones and as in any real life situation we have our share of Mr (and Mrs!) Know it all's but that is what makes it so interesting and real. I do think we need to be mindful of how newcomers may see us and make a bit of an effort with them though. The brilliant lack of moderation we all enjoy so much, means we have a responsibility to moderate ourselves now and again. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 09:21   What has happened to us? - 50+

"I was trying to rescue dinner from the oven having given too much time yesterday to this forum!" Hope not a microwave in the cab! ;-) No offence taken Pat. Just trying to make others aware that we don't always come across as a welcoming bunch to newbies. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 09:28   What has happened to us? - Mr. Ecs

And yes I've changed my moniker. Having just hit 50. Thought a change is good as and all that. Mr. Excess was starting to grate on me too. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 09:37   What has happened to us? - Focusless

>> And yes I've changed my moniker. On HJ? Still showing as Mr. Ecs here... >> Mr. Excess was starting to grate on me too. Ah - I read it as 'Mr X'... Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 19:40   What has happened to us? - Armel Coussine

>> Those that stand out for me are Zero, AC, Rattle. I know they are the backbone with some other regulars, but they have cheesed off enough from here, and it's starting to be recognised at last. Three of a kind are we, X? You flatter us. I yield to none in my ability to cheese people off. But I seem to remember that you were endemically cheesed off when you first appeared here in (it must be said) trollish fashion. I note that even Pat is almost defending us. But never mind, never mind. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. All is illusion. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 20:44   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> And lastly, some people just have enough of certain people who tend to dominate the >> lists of topics and responses, and drift away. Those that stand out for me are >> Zero, AC, Rattle. I know they are the backbone with some other regulars, but they >> have cheesed off enough from here, and it's starting to be recognised at last. How Rattle can offend is beyond my comprehension. You can chip in and respond or ignore but had enough.....??? AC entertains and informs. Recollections of life on the move whether Nigeria or Notting Hill are an education. And he introduced the words mimser and carphound into my vocab. If only he had Lud's money. Zero reminds me of Jaffa, the family dog at the childminders when my kids were young. If he spots an opening he'll bite your bum but if he knows you're wise to his tricks he's OK. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Thu 19 Sep 13 21:14   What has happened to us? - tyro

I agree with Bromptonaut. The three members referred to have, over the years, in my opinion, been a great asset both here and over at HJ's place. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Thu 19 Sep 13 21:37   What has happened to us? - MD

Agree. Can't say any more. Don't want to offend. My Drive is the only name for this 4 rum now. Well done Pat. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 22:17   What has happened to us? - MJW1994

Why the criticising of Rattle? Seems a nice lad, helped me in my campsite thread. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 22:39   What has happened to us? - RattleandSmoke

I have actually met quite a few people from this site a couple of years back. And of course Ted, who's SIL recently did a very good job of fitting some new windows for us. I know I post a lot, but to me I don't know why but this site has become more than a forum for me, it has become more like my local pub but without emptying my wallet and damaging my liver. I do post a lot and sometimes I can be over bearing, I suffer from anxiety to point that it makes me an eccentric and some people probably hate that. Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 22:40 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 19 Sep 13 23:00   What has happened to us? - Robin O'Reliant

Keep posting Rattle, you're an asset to the forum. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Thu 19 Sep 13 23:05   What has happened to us? - BobbyG

A picture paints a thousand words..... I regularly go on Pistonheads because they have loads of different threads and topics and importantly within them, you can post photos which add a humungus amount of interest to the thread. Interestingly, I nearly bought a new car this week, and being brutally honest, couldn't be bothered posting details of it here. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 04:31   What has happened to us? - Pat

I do agree with you Bobby about posting pictures. It does make the forum more interesting, specially when someone sees it for the first time. A link doesn't have that effect. I'm sure we could all be trusted not to post anything inappropriate and bandwidth shouldn't be a problem either. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 08:02   What has happened to us? - Zero

>> Interestingly, I nearly bought a new car this week, and being brutally honest, couldn't be >> bothered posting details of it here. Being brutally honest, what you nearly bought bought isnt of interest, come back and tell us what you did buy. I know why you didn't ask for buying advice on here, because of me you ended up with the Altea last time. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Fri 20 Sep 13 08:08   What has happened to us? - tyro

"Being brutally honest, what you nearly bought bought isnt of interest" It might be of interest to some of us. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 08:18   What has happened to us? - Zero

>> "Being brutally honest, what you nearly bought bought isnt of interest" >> >> It might be of interest to some of us. If it was interesting he would have told us. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 08:21   What has happened to us? - tyro

"If it was interesting he would have told us." I'm not sure that follows. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 19 Sep 13 23:46   What has happened to us? - PhilW

"I do post a lot and sometimes I can be over bearing, I suffer from anxiety to point that it makes me an eccentric and some people probably hate that. " Yep, and many read with interest, recognise that they were the same when younger and hope to advise and help. Keep posting Rattle, I may not post/help much but I recognise your anxieties and there are many on here that welcome your posts and offer advice - just look at the responses to your posts. Sorry I'm not much use - but there are many much wiser than me!! P Reply to this message | Report message       3

Fri 20 Sep 13 09:25   What has happened to us? - Focusless

>> Those that stand out for me are >> Zero, AC, Rattle. I know they are the backbone with some other regulars, but they >> have cheesed off enough from here, and it's starting to be recognised at last. Rattle?? He's one of the nicest and most tolerant on here IMO; Ted and Bromps also spring to mind as being in that category (apologies to others I've forgotten). Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 09:59   What has happened to us? - DP

Barring holiday or being stupidly busy, I visit this forum every day. Sometimes I post, sometimes I don't, but I have contributed fairly steadily over the past few years, and plan to continue to do so. It's not perfect, and there are certain individuals on here whose opinions and attitudes sometimes genuinely baffle me, but such is the case in the wider world also. The vast majority of debate, albeit sometimes heated, generally ends with some concession on both sides in my experience. There are quite a few people on here I genuinely like, including some of those I rarely agree with, and would like to have a pint with sometime. On the whole I find quite a lot of good discussion and banter. It does sometimes get heated, but generally the underlying nature is good. I too have noticed the lack of posts of late. Last edited by: DP on Fri 20 Sep 13 at 10:04 Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 10:08   What has happened to us? - Cliff Pope

>> >> there are certain individuals on here whose opinions and attitudes sometimes >> genuinely baffle me, Sorry, probably guilty. I know I do sometimes like to add remarks of such opaque irony that half the audience think I have said the opposite of what I was slyly intending. I have often felt the need on forums for an "Irony" symbol, like the Smiley, to soften the message and indicate what is lost without the facility of eye contact. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 10:25   What has happened to us? - DP

>> I have often felt the need on forums for an "Irony" symbol, like the Smiley, >> to soften the message and indicate what is lost without the facility of eye contact. Completely agree. This is the problem with written communication. Subtle vocal inflection, facial expressions and eye contact can completely change the way a statement is interpreted. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 10:15   What has happened to us? - Mapmaker

Take AC, Rattle and Zero away, and the place would be dull as ditch water; with just PDA washing her dirty laundry in public and "giving too much time to the forum". I don't know whether it's just the influence of this forum, but when Rattle arrived all those years ago, he appeared almost illiterate - now Mr Ecs that most certainly was not a bonus for the forum. These days he writes quite well. I like to think it's down to us. The only person whose name I look at and think 'Oh dear, he's posted again' is, in fact, Mr Ecs who thrives on confrontation. (I can be prickly enough myself, I know.) Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 10:28   What has happened to us? - Pat

>> with just PDA washing her dirty laundry in public << Would you care to explain exactly what that means mapmaker? :) Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 10:43   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

>>>Take AC, Rattle and Zero away, and the place would be dull as ditch water No... it's wrong to elevate any group of posters above another... it's that attitude that will stop outsiders joining as they perceive it is not worth trying to break the comfortable existing inner circle. Having said that I'm amazed at whoever picked those three for negative comment. Zero is an easy target I guess having a frustrating mixture of rude and dismissve or exceptionally helpful posts depending on the way the wind is blowing. Rattle is probably one of the least offensive and even tempered posters here. And AC has a massive understanding of the world and culture which is only slightly tinged by a grouchy response at times... but so obviously never meant to be unkind. As I say a very poor three to pick. Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 20 Sep 13 at 10:43 Reply to this message | Report message       2

Fri 20 Sep 13 10:50   What has happened to us? - Alanovich

It's pretty poor form to "pick" anyone. That sort of behaviour, the navel gazing, is pretty off putting to potential new site users. Nothing screams "clique" louder than discussion about ourselves. And, who wants to post in a place where they might to be singled out for criticism in this kind of manner? Reply to this message | Report message       2

Fri 20 Sep 13 10:56   What has happened to us? - DP

>> It's pretty poor form to "pick" anyone. That sort of behaviour, the navel gazing, is >> pretty off putting to potential new site users. Nothing screams "clique" louder than discussion about >> ourselves. And, who wants to post in a place where they might to be singled >> out for criticism in this kind of manner? Could not agree more. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 11:08   What has happened to us? - Pat

Me too. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 11:21   What has happened to us? - Cliff Pope

>> Me too. >> >> Pat >> Oh all right, let's pick Pat too :) But seriously, I agree. The knowing references to established members is a sure way of putting people off joining a club. Perhaps periodically we should all be given new names and start again, knowing nothing of each other. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 11:28   What has happened to us? - Crankcase

>> Perhaps periodically we should all be given new names and start again, knowing nothing of >> each other. >> Or swap names and see how it long it takes for anyone to notice. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 11:29   What has happened to us? - Fenlander

Oh dear we had a bit of that in the early HJ days... it seemed funny at the time but.... Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 11:42   What has happened to us? - RattleandSmoke

I think all forums suffer from the clique thing. I am a member of a technicians forum which and it doesn't seem to happen as much there but I think because a professional forum people are mostly better behaved. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Fri 20 Sep 13 12:44   What has happened to us? - Dutchie

That's a bit snobbish Rattle people are people. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Fri 20 Sep 13 12:49   What has happened to us? - RattleandSmoke

No it is designed for professional technicians not end users. Most of us all have our website and phone numbers as the signature. So people are well behaved because it is not anonymous. I am sure if we all put our phone numbers and addresses on this site people would be better behaved. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 12:54   What has happened to us? - Manatee

>> That's a bit snobbish Rattle people are people. I didn't read it that way - more that they are there to discuss technical issues rather than have a pub type discussion, so less chance of that morphing into people trying to win an argument. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 13:02   What has happened to us? - RattleandSmoke

Exactly that as well. Hardy any politics discussion of or anything like that. The site is full of geeks so really off topic discussions are basically what was better the C64 or the Spectrum :p. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 17:34   What has happened to us? - MJW1994

One of my uncles mentioned that HJ site to me about a year or so ago, I think he said he had an account at one time when it first was launched, along with Pistonheads and one or two other sites he suggested were good for motoring discussion. Most of the males in our family are interested in motoring, some more than others. I can tolerate most things, in fact people say if anything I’m too laid back (school reports certainly did) but one thing I don’t like is rudeness. I’ve been called a few things at some stage as I’m sure everyone has and I’m not perfect by any means but it doesn’t really do the website any good if newcomers see it and just degrades the place for existing members as well. I just had a quick peep and quite quickly saw this comment: “Anything Japanese or Korean over a dacia or a lada its not hard to work out wjat I ment callos25. Why are you such a prick?” Hmm, ok. (I sympathise with the spelling as mine’s quite bad, I always try and use Word to spell-check before posting.) Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 17:42   What has happened to us? - Pat

We rate enthusiasm above spelling and grammar on here Matt, so just post away and don't worry. If they have a go at you, they'll have me to deal with:) Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 21:13   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

Collos 25 over there is notoriously abrupt/rude. Though, to be fair, those on receiving end are often truly deserving. We rag each other a bit here but it's mostly well meaning. Even when we seriously disagree as when Westpig and I fall out over cyclist, there's no malice involved. Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 20 Sep 13 22:26   What has happened to us? - Westpig

>> as when Westpig and I fall out over cyclist, there's no malice involved. >> I'm due another good blast on the subject matter..could we book an appointment, say Wed evening? Reply to this message | Report message       1

Sat 21 Sep 13 06:01   What has happened to us? - Pat

I've got some ammunition for that one too WP:) Get your defences ready Bromp! Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 14:07   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> I've got some ammunition for that one too WP:) >> >> Get your defences ready Bromp! >> >> Pat Bring it on Pat (and WP too). Particularly if there's something new to say. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 15:19   What has happened to us? - madf

If anyone wants a duel, I'll order up my Chieftan tank and recommission it. Except the duel must happen with a 25 mile radius of our house : I can't afford further at 1mpg... The range of the 120mm gun is only 1.9miles.. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 15:20   What has happened to us? - Pat

There's a lot going on regarding HGV's and cyclists. I'm off here www.commercialmotorlive.com/ on 3rd October and I'm hoping to get on this seminar >>11.45am-12.45pm: Cycle safety: where London leads, other cities follow The single biggest contributor to bad press about the transport industry in London is the safety of cyclists. But where London leads, other cities follow, so don’t think cycle safety doesn’t affect your operation. In this session, Transport for London will highlight its position – take heed and be one step ahead when other cities adopt the same policies. The Mineral Products Association (MPA) will outline its work with clients and stakeholders on vehicle specification and approaches to minimising the risks to cyclists, while one of its members will present a case study. Glen Davies, Transport for London Jerry McLaughlin, director, MPA Case studies: Nick Elliott, national transport manager, Hope Construction Materials; Sean McGrae, senior manager – national transport, Lafarge Tarmac; and a representative from Cemex Q&A Chair: Justin Stanton, editorial director, Road Transport Media << I think it's full but I'm booked on the one before it and I'm hoping if I lurk between the two, no-one will notice me! Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 15:47   What has happened to us? - midlifecrisis

I rarely look at this site anymore, but do pop in when Pistonheads is quiet. It was with some interest that I read this thread. I was a long time contributer to the Backroom and moved over to this one when it was first set up. From my point of view, it became like the internet version of the Daily Wail letters page. It got to such a level, I gave up and moved on. There never seems to be anything new posted when I do come back for a look. I haven't got any answers, but you definitely need to do something to stop the site withering away. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 22:30   What has happened to us? - Dog

>>I haven't got any answers, but you definitely need to do something to stop the site withering away. Over 250 posts today (wither, wither) :} Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 22:06   What has happened to us? - Dog

330 posts so far today ... on the dying forum. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 25 Sep 13 22:21   What has happened to us? - Dog

323 posts so far today ... wither wither. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 26 Sep 13 00:45   What has happened to us? - VxFan

>> 323 posts so far today Doing well then. That's the average amount that we used to get on t'other side. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Thu 26 Sep 13 07:13   What has happened to us? - Duncan

>> >> 323 posts so far today >> >> Doing well then. That's the average amount that we used to get on t'other side. >> How many is he getting nowadays? I looked in there a few days ago and I got the impression that many/most threads were old threads that had been revived. I realise that we get on C4P a number of resurrections, but nothing like the percentage that seems to occur over there! Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 26 Sep 13 10:41   What has happened to us? - VxFan

>> How many is he getting nowadays? God knows. Haven't been to the Bronx for ages now. Do they not have a running daily total anymore then? Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 15:50   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

That looks interesting Pat The issue in London, IME, is mostly about construction vehicles; skip/tips and to a lesser extent cement mixers. The latter industry seems to have gone some way to getting its act together. The latest flurry in the cyclists world came from Boris Johnson's announcement, with support from DfT concerning further regualtion of construction trucks. More particularly they were exercised ove the remarkably aggressive press release from the FTA and the only slightly more nuanced one from the RHA: tinyurl.com/pkjtrq6 (FTA) tinyurl.com/nrpw6cr (RHA) Now as I've said before I support better training for cyclists and the would particularly encourage the return of the Public Information Film to highlight the risks around lorries. Neither do I have any grouse with the idea that cyclists should watch out for themselves and obey traffic signals. But the FTA while mentioning the 'reputable' part of the industry then go 'off on one' about cyclists completely ignoring the opportunity to call on the rest of the trade to adopt the high standards of the 'reputable'. Was Thames Materials, employerthe multply banned drunkard Dennis P u t z*, who mowed down Catriona Patel, a member of the FTA? For once however the CTC came out fighting: www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/files/130905_gs_fta-letter_rpt.pdf [EDIT] *For some reason this guy's name engages the swear filter. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 23 Sep 13 at 15:53 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 16:16   What has happened to us? - Pat

>> but it is also affected by the driving standards and culture in London as a whole and we need to see more emphasis on that. In 2012, more than twice as many cyclists were killed by cars as by HGVs and more than 300 times as many were seriously injured by cars as by HGVs.<< This is a fact often ignored by everyone and certainly needed pointing out...should we now insist on outside airbags fitted to cars no matter at what cost or how they obscure the badging? Mr Seabright needs to back up his claims with his source and start comparing like for like. Not often I agree with the RHA but I do on this one. >> Neither do I have any grouse with the idea that cyclists should watch out for themselves and obey traffic signals<< Maybe when this happens cyclist demands will be taken more seriously. How about a campaign to get cyclist to obey the HC Bromp?! Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 16:56   What has happened to us? - madf

but it is also affected by the driving standards and culture in London as a whole and we need to see more emphasis on that. In 2012, more than twice as many cyclists were killed by cars as by HGVs and more than 300 times as many were seriously injured by cars as by HGVs.<< So as there are LOTS more (like 50 times) cars on UK roads than HGVs, the ratios suggest that HGV drivers are far more likely - as individuals - to kill cyclists. As usual with statistics, it's how you use them that counts...and the person who wrote that analysis was a muppet or deliberately misleading. Last edited by: madf on Mon 23 Sep 13 at 16:58 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 17:16   What has happened to us? - WillDeBeest

This is a fact often ignored by everyone and certainly needed pointing out. Only if you put it in its proper context. What are the respective numbers of cyclist fatalities per 100,000 km driven for (a) cars and (b) HGVs? If (a) is still twice as high as (b) the point is a fair one; otherwise HGVs are disproportionately responsible for killing cyclists and it makes sense for corrective measures to target them first. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 17:38   What has happened to us? - Zero

The problem in london is as a cyclist a: you mess with a car, you get knocked off your bike and injured. b: you mess with a construction lorry/mixer you end up tangled under the wheels ending up as a nasty stain on the road. So the question really is, >>What are the respective numbers of cyclist fatalities injuries per 100,000 km driven for (a) cars and (b) HGVs? Before one starts to heap blame on any group of drivers involved. Banning construction vehicles from London is a no-no. Building work has to go on. In truth only separation of cycles and cars will work. I bet your boots only the militant cyclist brigade will object to that. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 17:58   What has happened to us? - Pat

>>only separation of cycles and cars will work<< The majority are on and off cycle lanes like yo-yo's anyway so that won't work either. If a cycle lane is present a cyclist should be forced by law to use it...I presume our ( motorised vehicles) have paid for it? Pat Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 23 Sep 13 18:34   What has happened to us? - Zero

>> >>only separation of cycles and cars will work<< >> >> The majority are on and off cycle lanes like yo-yo's anyway so that won't work >> either. No I mean proper separation, a cycle lane formed by a white line is not separation. In central london, its quite easy, you simply ban cars from some roads, and cyclists from others. At which point the cyclists start to whine about their rights to go where there hell they like. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 23 Sep 13 18:48   What has happened to us? - Armel Coussine

>> At which point the cyclists start to whine about their rights to go where there hell they like. ... and the car drivers, or so I piously hope, will simply continue to go where the hell they like, hooting incessantly to warn cyclists, pedestrians and other lesser creatures of their reckless, barely-under-control approach. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 07:46   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

>> ......... and the car drivers, .............. hooting incessantly ............... That reminds me ~ I've had my car six months and haven't yet tested the horn to make sure it works. I suppose it won't really matter for another two and a half years, when it will be due for an MOT. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 10:13   What has happened to us? - VxFan

>> That reminds me ~ I've had my car six months and haven't yet tested the >> horn to make sure it works. I suppose it won't really matter for another two >> and a half years, when it will be due for an MOT. Book it in up to a month earlier in case it doesn't work. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:29   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> At which point the cyclists start to whine about their rights to go where there >> hell they like. Finally worked out a route from Euston to my new office in Westminster that obeys one way streets and keeps me for most part off major thoroughfares. Too right I'd whine if banned from Strand or Embankment. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:34   What has happened to us? - Zero

>> >> At which point the cyclists start to whine about their rights to go where >> there >> >> hell they like. >> >> Finally worked out a route from Euston to my new office in Westminster that obeys >> one way streets and keeps me for most part off major thoroughfares. Too right I'd >> whine if banned from Strand or Embankment. Fine but don't whine if you end up as strawberry jam under a bus in the strand. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:49   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> Fine but don't whine if you end up as strawberry jam under a bus in >> the strand. The strawberry jam risk is mitigated by a bit of observation. But given that after a bike the next fastest way from St Mary le Strand to Charing Cross is Shanks's Pony the risk barrier is easily jumped. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 21:27   What has happened to us? - Robin O'Reliant

But given that after >> a bike the next fastest way from St Mary le Strand to Charing Cross is >> Shanks's Pony the risk barrier is easily jumped. >> You've missed the real fastest way of getting round london or any other city Brompt, and that's by motorcycle. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 19:41   What has happened to us? - NortonES2

"The majority are on and off cycle lanes like yo-yo's anyway so that won't work either." I agree that cars and trucks are on and off cycle lanes like yo-yo's. They even use them as linear car parks. No wonder they are little used, for this and other reasons. "I presume our ( motorised vehicles) have paid for it?" So entrenched in the car-centric viewpoint that you still spout tripe about VED! As you well know PDA, roads are not funded from VED. As for compulsory use of painted "lanes" have you ever tried a "cycle lane"? No, didn't think so:) Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:02   What has happened to us? - No FM2R

Cycling versus trucks is like every other issue in the UK, all about your rights, and what you deserve, and what everybody else should do. I don't really understand why everybody is against making allowances for each other. Everybody seems so concerned about every last millimetre of their rights. I remember years ago the US being criticised for using the law to govern social interaction; yet here we are 30 years later with the UK and its citizens embedded in that path. For goodness sake, its a bicycle, move around it or wait for it. Or, if you prefer, its a car, give it a bit of space. In both cases a strong dose of getting over yourself would help. Reply to this message | Report message       4

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:07   What has happened to us? - Zero

>> I remember years ago the US being criticised for using the law to govern social >> interaction; yet here we are 30 years later with the UK and its citizens embedded >> in that path. Thats a poor analogy, we are talking about people ending up squashed to bits in the road, not who can use coffee shops. Traffic is and always has been segregated. Usually by making them drive on one side of the road or other. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:25   What has happened to us? - No FM2R

It wasn't an analogy. There is pretty much nothing that would not currently be improved by a bit more live and let live. And that includes road usage and behaviour. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:29   What has happened to us? - Zero

>> It wasn't an analogy. >> >> There is pretty much nothing that would not currently be improved by a bit more >> live and let live. >> >> And that includes road usage and behaviour. The problem is its getting more die and let die. They found out back in the late 1800s that live and let live does not work on the roads. It didn't then, it hasn't in the mean time, and it wont in the future. Driving and traffic is, by necessity, one of the most rules based, regulated and segregated things we deal with in life. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:24   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> Cycling versus trucks is like every other issue in the UK, all about your rights, >> and what you deserve, and what everybody else should do. >> >> I don't really understand why everybody is against making allowances for each other. Everybody seems >> so concerned about every last millimetre of their rights. >> >> I remember years ago the US being criticised for using the law to govern social >> interaction; yet here we are 30 years later with the UK and its citizens embedded >> in that path. >> >> For goodness sake, its a bicycle, move around it or wait for it. Or, if >> you prefer, its a car, give it a bit of space. >> >> In both cases a strong dose of getting over yourself would help. Do you know, I'm almost inclined to green thumb that. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:27   What has happened to us? - No FM2R

>>I'm almost inclined to green thumb that. Steady Bromp, steady. Before you know it I'll be getting delusions of adequacy. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 21:11   What has happened to us? - MD

>> In both cases a strong dose of getting over yourself would help. >> I would love to agree, but you tell a Rep' or a Lorry driver that they have to give a bit and they won't co's they've got their guvnor breathing down their necks. It's all about money when you get back to basics. You lorry drivers out there tell me this. WHY do Milk tanker drivers who collect from farms ALL drive like *loody Idiots and I mean IDIOTS. Is it piece work? Is it job and finish? Why don't they get nicked? Same for a lot of domestic heating oil delivery drivers (Certain firms). Why when a Draw bar Milk tanker driver put me in the verge (and didn't stop) would Plod not release their details? I had the index number. Data protection they quoted, yes really. Bit different when they want to know something though.. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 23 Sep 13 21:20   What has happened to us? - -

Peanuts pay with predictable results in some not all cases MD. If the job has good terms and conditions then it attracts the right people, sometimes those good employers ONLY recruit through recommendation or by what they see from cold calling applicants, the company i work for never advertises. Recommendation brings in good wood usually, if the job is good the sensible employee has every intention of making sure that good job lasts permanently, so only recommends good people and does his/her level best in their own work. The other side to this coin is obvious too. Not the case with all obviously. I've given my opinion before on large vehicles in cities, skills and attitudes to care attention etc, i haven't changed those opinions either. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 24 Sep 13 04:43   What has happened to us? - Pat

>>As for compulsory use of painted "lanes" have you ever tried a "cycle lane"? No, didn't think so:)<< No I haven't, but if they really are that bad surely the various cycling bodies should be getting Boris to improve them/do away with them instead of simply ignoring them when they feel like it. London is congested enough without having the width of roads reduced by unused cycle lanes. >>. WHY do Milk tanker drivers who collect from farms ALL drive like *loody Idiots and I mean IDIOTS. Is it piece work? Is it job and finish? Why don't they get nicked? << That would be on the A39 then:0 They terrify all other road users MD, not just you, try meeting them on a dark wet morning in another artic on those bends under the trees. Is it job and finish? Well actually no, it's one of those 'quality' jobs GB speaks of which is salaried...Yes, you got it, they are paid the same however long the day is so the sooner they are finished the early morning run they go home. So being salaried is just as bad as being paid a mileage bones etc. Why don't they get nicked...does Plod know Devon exists? >> Roads - and cycle lanes - are paid for out of general taxation, which includes the income tax paid by cyclists, the VAT paid by cyclists on their bikes and clothing, and indeed the inheritance tax paid on the estates of cyclists killed by HGVs. << ..and you're happy to see those taxes we all pay wasted, WilldeB? I'm not. This problem doesn't seem to exist in these great numbers in any other city other than London. Cambridge and Oxford both have their fair share of bikes and congestion during rush hour, but nowhere near the cycling deaths of London. Could that have something to do with the mindset of a London cyclist? Pat Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 24 Sep 13 10:20   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> No I haven't, but if they really are that bad surely the various cycling bodies >> should be getting Boris to improve them/do away with them instead of simply ignoring them >> when they feel like it. London is congested enough without having the width of roads >> reduced by unused cycle lanes. The LCC are onto Boris on a regular basis. In spite of his own biking and public statements if you judge him by his actions (Blackfriars Bridge north end for example) he's reducing cyclist safety. >> This problem doesn't seem to exist in these great numbers in any other city other >> than London. Cambridge and Oxford both have their fair share of bikes and congestion during >> rush hour, but nowhere near the cycling deaths of London. Could that have something to >> do with the mindset of a London cyclist? It's not sometiohng in the Thames air Pat. The Burghers of Cambridge complain bitterly and at length about the same offences as London - ignoring reg lights, crossings and signed restrictions together with being unlit at night. Same I'm sure in Oxford or York. The added ingredient in London is the construction boom. It never really went away in the recession but is now back with a vengeance. Which brings me back to where I started - skip/tip vehicles. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 10:38   What has happened to us? - Pat

>>It's not sometiohng in the Thames air Pat. << Obviously not, the Thames runs through Oxford too! >> The added ingredient in London is the construction boom. It never really went away in the recession but is now back with a vengeance. Which brings me back to where I started - skip/tip vehicles. << Can't argue with that one. Pat Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 19:59   What has happened to us? - WillDeBeest

If a cycle lane is present a cyclist should be forced by law to use it...I presume our ( motorised vehicles) have paid for it. How, Pat? Roads - and cycle lanes - are paid for out of general taxation, which includes the income tax paid by cyclists, the VAT paid by cyclists on their bikes and clothing, and indeed the inheritance tax paid on the estates of cyclists killed by HGVs. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:30   What has happened to us? - Armel Coussine

No one wants to hurt or frighten other road users and no one wants the hassle and inconvenience of a serious accident. The road has cyclists, pedestrians and animals on it as well as motor vehicles. There is no segregation of cyclists that means a damn. Cycle lanes painted on the road, especially narrow ones outside rows of parked cars, are useless or sometimes worse than useless. So a decorous pace and extreme vigilance are called for when driving or riding in, say, London. Even so some people drive dangerously and some cyclists are far from sensible in the matters of clothes, lighting, proper awareness of other traffic and so on. It's a bit of a minefield out there. Mind how you go. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:42   What has happened to us? - Dutchie

My brother or sister when they go cycling don't where high visibility jackets, helmets etc.Proper cycle paths on the majority of roads is the answer. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:50   What has happened to us? - Armel Coussine

>> My brother or sister when they go cycling don't where high visibility jackets In Holland Dutchman? The land of the bicycle... there are some good cycle paths here on 1930s roads, like the A24 stretch before Box Hill. But they are disused, covered with sharp stones and glass, and cyclists still prefer the road. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:45   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> >>only separation of cycles and cars will work<< >> >> The majority are on and off cycle lanes like yo-yo's anyway so that won't work >> either. >> >> If a cycle lane is present a cyclist should be forced by law to use >> it...I presume our ( motorised vehicles) have paid for it? >> >> Pat Even ignoring the 'who paid for it' question, answered by others, this is a dodgy proposition. There are all sorts of reasons not to use cycle lanes - even those segregated by kerbs etc. Do you know Tavistock Way etc in London?. It's an east/west thoroughfare about a block south of the Euston Road. A two way segregated cycle route runs north of and parallel to it. It's OK so far as it goes but: At uncontrolled junctions motorists find it really difficult to watch road AND cycleway when crossing - just about manage from left but right turns...!!! No space to overtake - all bikes move at pace of the a cargobike from Darwin's Deli Peds step in without fear or favour. The Council or Utility companies feel free to obstruct/dig up at will. For the 200m it's available to me I'd rather mix it with motorised traffic. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 21:32   What has happened to us? - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> >> Even ignoring the 'who paid for it' question, answered by others, this is a dodgy >> proposition. There are all sorts of reasons not to use cycle lanes - even those >> segregated by kerbs etc. >> >> The problem with cycle lanes are they are often no more than a box ticking exercise by local authorities trying to show how green they are. Many of them are just plain ridiculous, rending them virtually unusable unless you want to be squashed into a one metre strip in the rubbish strewn gutter and having to get off and walk every five minutes. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Mon 23 Sep 13 18:18   What has happened to us? - BiggerBadderDave

"In truth only separation of cycles and cars will work." Damned right, Zero. Leave the cars where they are and put the cyclists in the Isle of Man. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:23   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> >> but it is also affected by the driving standards and culture in London as >> a whole and we need to see more emphasis on that. In 2012, more than >> twice as many cyclists were killed by cars as by HGVs and more than 300 >> times as many were seriously injured by cars as by HGVs.<< >> >> This is a fact often ignored by everyone TBH I think the RHA are using some variation on UK wide stats as a diversion tactic. The issue Boris/DfT are addressing is in London where skip/tip lorries are overwhelmingly linking factor in cyclist fatalities. >> >> Mr Seabright needs to back up his claims with his source and start comparing like >> for like. So does everyone in this debate. >> >> >> >> >> Neither do I have any grouse with the idea that cyclists should watch out for >> themselves and obey traffic signals<< >> >> Maybe when this happens cyclist demands will be taken more seriously. >> >> How about a campaign to get cyclist to obey the HC Bromp?! No issue with a campaign to get cyclists but better still ALL road users to obey the HC. Was it a full moon tonight? Driving me home from station The Lad had two motorists pull the 'peek a boo I can't see you*' trick on him at roundabouts and I'd had a taxi do same in Museum St 75 minutes before. * refers to Flanders and Swann's bestiary and the ostrich with head in sand. >> Pat >> Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 23 Sep 13 20:47   What has happened to us? - Roger.

I must confess that it is many years since (late 60s to late 70s) I regularly drove in London. At one time I commuted by road from Pratts Bottom, Kent, to Kenton in Harrow, Middx. I also drove round Greater London from Harrow to Kensal Green, Paddington, Ealing, and Southall areas, all day and many evenings, too, all work related, before returning home to P.B. Even then traffic was horrendous, but the golden rule was look out solely for the two front corners of your car and pretty well ignore all else - on the basis that was how other drivers drove! Worked reasonably well then, but I bet it is not so now. I would just hate to drive in or around London these days. Nightmare. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 21:27   What has happened to us? - MD

Some months ago an unnamed person stepped out of a terraced house straight onto the pavement to be caught, quite firmly on the arm, by a cyclist of perhaps 40 years of age making progress along the footpath on his way to work. Strangely enough this unnamed person then happened to board his van with ten foot trailer attached and by chance then saw this cyclist once again making progress, this time on the road. Now the chap in the van decided to pass the cyclist, not hitting his arm, but giving him perhaps the luxury of 18 inches of room, no more he assures me. Then when looking in his mirror he sees the cyclist giving him the Banking sign. Van driver stops, gets out, stops said cyclist and asks him what the problem is. Cyclist remonstrates with van man. Van man mentions the pavement incident and cyclist goes quiet. In this chaps experience, he tells me only the serious endurance cyclists seem to have any sense and nous and the rest can go to hell, which by the way they ride, might well prove to be the case. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 23 Sep 13 21:55   What has happened to us? - MD

AND.....the sooner multi drop delivery drivers have both hands shackled to the wheel (to prevent the drop sheet being held and read whilst rolling a fag the better. AND as soon as mobile phone technology stops ANY use of the thing whilst driving the accident rate will predictably fall. That'll fox the brain dead kids from updating (two)facebook whilst driving. A few weeks ago a very new driver missed a 90 degree rural turn here, cart wheeled through a field gate snapping a huge Oak hanging post in the process, rolled several times, crushed the roof, both airbags gorn orf and the kid walked. No one will ever know why, but watching said kid wandering the field just after said incident playing with the phone in it's hand I know where my money lies. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 05:02   What has happened to us? - Pat

You on a roll MD? It's funny old world because when we drive/ride multiple vehicle types, including cycles, we all seem to think we are the best driver/rider on the road...on the vehicle we're on at the time. We become judge and jury on everything and every one. We see an accident and know exactly how it happened, who was at fault and what should have been done to prevent it. My reaction to the 'kid' wandering around the field with his phone in his hand would have been that he was more than likely making that embarrassing phone call to his Dad making excuses about wet leaves or diesel on the road, and ending in 'can you come and get me?' Just for the record, I always try and defend those prejudged ideas and put the other option to people, but it doesn't mean I approve of drivers using phones or knocking cyclists off the road. I have written two courses in the last couple of months addressing the problems of lorries and cyclists in towns, and the current one has me on my soap box about the consequences of texting while driving. Even worse, I'm horrified at the number of both car and lorry drivers who take photo's on mobile phones while driving AND post them on Facebook whilst still obviously driving. The second one is designed to shock and I've only delivered it once to date, but it had 15 lorry drivers stunned into silence for 15 minutes at a stretch...that's unusual. So many lorry drivers condemn the DCPC as useless but if it makes just one driver think twice before picking up the phone or not checking the kerbside mirror, I've done my job. Pat Last edited by: pda on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 05:03 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 23 Sep 13 21:58   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

MD As I've said before cycling on the pavement is a no no. Might be an exception where a road/bike route is obstructed; are you listening Camden LBC re Bury Place (now) or Montague Place (last year)? circs where first gear/walking place is order of day. OTOH using a motor vehicle for a 'punishment pass' where it's rider's life-v-your pride/paintwork is just daft. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Tue 24 Sep 13 10:35   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> Some months ago an unnamed person stepped out of a terraced house straight onto the....... Martin, The cyclist had no business being on the pavement. Even if it were shared use he shouldn't be 'making progress' - another reason to avoid so called cycling provision of that type. The punishment pass however is another thing. Apart from two wrongs not making a right if it were misjudged the perp could be looking at death by dangerous or even manslaughter. There should be no room on the roads for those who use a large vehicle as a weapon. And while you mention a recent pavement cycling death in your area those incidents are vanishingly few in number - about one every two years. Death is invariably due to the pedestrian falling badly and hitting their head on a kerbstone or similar. A matter of chance as with similar deaths form trip/slip or 'handbags' outside a pub. OTOH if hit by a van it's traumatic external and internal injury leading to cardiac arrest - death a certainty. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 10:38   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

Mods, Is there any chance, while it's still realtively linear of getting this tangential discussion moved to the cycling thread? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 10:54   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

>> And while you mention a recent pavement cycling death in your area those incidents are >> vanishingly few in number ............ It's not that many years ago that a neighbour of ours was hit by a pavement cyclist as she walked from her drive onto the pavement. She suffered a broken hip as a result of the collision. It wasn't long before gangrene set in, from which she eventually died. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 11:45   What has happened to us? - Bigtee

I stopped posting for a while it became stale and it still is, I popped back in the other day & today nothing exiting happening, some better motoring posts but don't mention winter tyres some don't like them!! All in all there's other interests for me and i'm looking up new interests new hobbies i may ask a question on a hobby i'm playing with on here but will see. New hobbies i join there forums.. Try harder to encourage people to stay less bickering and arguing its boring there's always the off button and other forums to enjoy, please make this one a good one to stay. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Tue 24 Sep 13 13:46   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> It's not that many years ago that a neighbour of ours was hit by a >> pavement cyclist as she walked from her drive onto the pavement. She suffered a broken >> hip as a result of the collision. It wasn't long before gangrene set in, from >> which she eventually died. Every road death is a tragedy for those left behind. This example again illustrates point that in ped/cyclist collision fatalities it tends to be mischance that turns a cuts/bruises/shock accident into a death. I've been on a hip fracture ward and was the youngest by two generations. The overwhelming majority of neck of femur breaks happen in the over eighties. Mostly women; there were three female bays and one male on 'my' ward. Osteoporosis is endemic in old ladies particularly so even a soft tumble can cause a break I suspect the gangrene had an underlying circulatory cause. Was she a smoker/ex smoker or diabetic? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 14:45   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

Every pedestrian has the right to walk on a pavement without risking being mowed down by a cyclist. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 24 Sep 13 15:09   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> Every pedestrian has the right to walk on a pavement without risking being mowed down >> by a cyclist. Of course they have. I didn't mean to say otherwise and as I've repeatedly made clear I'm even less of an apologist for rapid pavement cycling than I am for red light jumpers. My point was that this example, like others, supports the contention that in cyclist ped fatals there is usually an additional causal link between the accident and death. It's not, as I think it was MD asserted, like being hit by a van and dying there/then of traumatic internal injury. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 16:31   What has happened to us? - Crankcase

Village shop is just up the road. Was passing on foot about a year ago when a middle aged lady on her bicycle decided to coast in to halt by the shop, going over the pavement for a few yards to do so. At the same moment a happy smiling little girl of about six ran out of her drive, perhaps to go to shop next door. Bang. Little girl went down like spillikins and didn't move. Lady cyclist, distraught, carried little limp body back into house. Must have been awful for everyone concerned, and even that image sticks with me. I don't know the people, nothing in paper, nothing on grapevine, so I hope she was fine, but I don't cycle on pavements, even a bit. Not that my bike gets out very often these days. Pavements are a no no and the roads round here are usually a nightmare, so tend not to bother. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 16:35   What has happened to us? - Robin O'Reliant

People who ride on the pavements because they think the roads are too dangerous should realise that cycling is not for them. They are not up to it. The only time it's acceptable to take a bike onto the pavement is when you are pushing it. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 24 Sep 13 16:44   What has happened to us? - Focusless

>> The only time it's acceptable to take a bike onto the pavement is when you >> are pushing it. What about when there's a sign allowing both cyclists and pedestrians on the pavement? I'm not sure how that makes it safer - pedestrians have right of way, so they shouldn't have to do anything different [might be wrong there], and the cyclists probably feels they are allowed to go faster than if there wasn't a sign... Last edited by: Focusless on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 16:45 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 24 Sep 13 16:48   What has happened to us? - Focusless

Just looked up in highway code www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82 62 ... Cyclists and pedestrians may be segregated or they may share the same space (unsegregated). When using segregated tracks you MUST keep to the side intended for cyclists as the pedestrian side remains a pavement or footpath. Take care when passing pedestrians, especially children, older or disabled people, and allow them plenty of room. Always be prepared to slow down and stop if necessary... Doesn't appear to give specific advice for unsegregated. Last edited by: Focusless on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 16:49 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 22:12   What has happened to us? - TheManWithNoName

I posted earlier in this thread that I don't use the forum much due to thread drift. 207 posts later and when I revisit it, its gone from 'why so few posts' to a discussion about 'segregated cycle lanes'. This thread has gone so far off course its practically 'off-road'. Oh, I'm not having a go or anything. it just amuses me to see how different the first post is compared to the last. Last edited by: TheManWithNoName on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 22:12 Reply to this message | Report message       2

Tue 24 Sep 13 22:16   What has happened to us? - Zero

Thread drift is one of the sites great strengths. I can not abide overzealous hitleresque moderators frantically snipping great chunks out of threads because they have determined its drifted. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Tue 24 Sep 13 22:29   What has happened to us? - Dog

On the expat site I frequent, they have a !Back to Topic! smiley if you drift orf. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 24 Sep 13 22:55   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> Thread drift is one of the sites great strengths. I can not abide overzealous hitleresque >> moderators frantically snipping great chunks out of threads because they have determined its drifted. +1. You can have a conversation on this site. I asked the moddies to snip the biking stuff to a more useful home but I suspect even after only 25 posts it was too difficult and like in a pub, you need to focus on who you're talking to at any one time!! Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 24 Sep 13 at 22:59 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 25 Sep 13 08:34   What has happened to us? - Cliff Pope

>> Thread drift is one of the sites great strengths. >> Hear, hear! As I have said before, it's like a glorious pub conversation. Several threads meander through the hubbub, new comments get shouted across, little groups splinter off and pursue an argument or a thread drift, but keep one ear on the throb of conversation and chip in again when they please. Did I ever tell you .......? Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Wed 25 Sep 13 at 08:35 Reply to this message | Report message       1

Wed 25 Sep 13 09:04   What has happened to us? - tyro

>> Thread drift is one of the site's great strengths. >> Thread drift is something that people are going to differ on. And it seems to me that it is at least possible that while the minority who do most of posting on a forum like it, the people who are on the fringes of a forum are a lot less enthusiastic. Or, to put it another way, what the most enthusiastic users of a forum love may be exactly what irritates the less enthusiastic and causes them to drift away. So if the subject of thread drift comes up, 15 or 20 people may leap to its defense, with few voices raised against. But some of those people who don't complain about thread drift will be less likely to come back. My own view is that some thread drift is inevitable and healthy, but excessive thread drift is unhelpful. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 25 Sep 13 09:13   What has happened to us? - Zero

I think its the original posters responsibility to keep a thread on track if they want to. It does not have to done by snipping or nasty reminders from moderators, but can be done by gentle subtle nudges, or a desperate pea. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 25 Sep 13 09:28   What has happened to us? - Crankcase

>> or a desperate pea. I can feel some serious thread drift coming on. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 25 Sep 13 09:30   What has happened to us? - tyro

>> I think its the original posters responsibility to keep a thread on track if they >> want to. It does not have to done by snipping or nasty reminders from moderators, >> but can be done by gentle subtle nudges, or a desperate pea. Fine. I would sum that up as: No to nasty, yes to gentle. Doesn't really matter whether it is the OP or a mod. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 25 Sep 13 09:39   What has happened to us? - Cliff Pope

>> I think its the original posters responsibility to keep a thread on track >> Again, sensible words from Zero (What's happening, I keep agreeing with him these days?) I also take the point about new joiners perhaps not taking to thread drift so kindly. It is difficult joining an already drifted thread. It's hard to know where to break in, and you may be intervening in a completely irrelevant bit of drifted banter that's going nowhere. Like being pinned in a corner by the pub bore. Some forums have a "Newbie" tag, which alerts other posters and perhaps lets someone rescue a newcomer. There's no magic answer - just moderation, politeness, and commonsense. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 25 Sep 13 10:05   What has happened to us? - Focusless

>> It is difficult joining an already drifted thread. It's hard to know where to break >> in, and you may be intervening in a completely irrelevant bit of drifted banter that's >> going nowhere. That's where the thread structure can help - as long as people reply to relevant posts, the drifting can be kept separate from the OP topic (although it doesn't always work out that way). Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 25 Sep 13 14:29   What has happened to us? - Clk Sec

>> Some forums have a "Newbie" tag, which alerts other posters and perhaps lets someone rescue a newcomer. But that's not necessary here, as there aren't that many of us. And just look how well Runfer D'Hills has been treated. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 25 Sep 13 10:52   What has happened to us? - VxFan

>> or nasty reminders from moderators, Nasty!! How dare you. Now go stand in the naughty corner. Or I'll ban you ;) Reply to this message | Report message       8

Wed 25 Sep 13 09:41   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

>> >> Every pedestrian has the right to walk on a pavement without risking being mowed >> down >> >> by a cyclist. >> >> Of course they have. I didn't mean to say otherwise and as I've repeatedly made >> clear I'm even less of an apologist for rapid pavement cycling than I am for >> red light jumpers. >> >> My point was that this example, like others, supports the contention that in cyclist ped >> fatals there is usually an additional causal link between the accident and death. The broken hip suffered by my neighbour was the result of the actual collision of the cycle with her body, not by her falling to the ground afterwards or by having osteoporosis or anything else. Goodness knows what flesh injuries she sustained. She was only 37. Being hit by a cyclist is being hit by a sharp metal object travelling at perhaps 15mph with the weight of the rider bringing the total weight to perhaps 180 pounds. To summarise it, that means being hit at 15 mph by a sharp metal object weighing 180 pounds. Most pavement cyclists don't seem to realise that. Reply to this message | Report message       3

Wed 25 Sep 13 10:21   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> The broken hip suffered by my neighbour was the result of the actual collision of >> the cycle with her body, not by her falling to the ground afterwards or by >> having osteoporosis or anything else. Goodness knows what flesh injuries she sustained. She was only >> 37. Being hit by a cyclist is being hit by a sharp metal object travelling >> at perhaps 15mph with the weight of the rider bringing the total weight to perhaps >> 180 pounds. To summarise it, that means being hit at 15 mph by a sharp >> metal object weighing 180 pounds. Most pavement cyclists don't seem to realise that. Thanks for putting me right on that one. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 26 Sep 13 10:17   What has happened to us? - Crankcase

Getting back to what has happened to us, for a spot of nostalgia, have a look at: www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=3&v=f Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 26 Sep 13 12:37   What has happened to us? - tyro

Yes, I looked at that thread the other day when posting my first post on this thread. The poignant words were "Nice to be back home in a nice forum." Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 26 Sep 13 10:53   What has happened to us? - L'escargot

>>> Thanks for putting me right on that one. >> No probs, Bromptonaut. Last edited by: Webmaster on Thu 26 Sep 13 at 12:19 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 26 Sep 13 11:54   What has happened to us? - Bromptonaut

>> Thanks for putting me right on that one. What in the name of all and any deity could anyone find offensive about above exchange!!! Last edited by: Webmaster on Thu 26 Sep 13 at 12:19 Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 26 Sep 13 12:48   What has happened to us? - No FM2R

Those frowny faces cause more irritation and resentment than anything else. I still don't know why in God's name they're still here. They should be disposed of and if people disagree with, or are offended by, something then they'll just have to say so. Reply to this message | Report message       1