Non-motoring > Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. Miscellaneous
Thread Author: henry k Replies: 22
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 17:20 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - henry k
Existing situation in by daughters flat. Inaccessible sockets and a spur box behind base units in a kitchen.

1. A 13A switched double socket below a worktop and behind a base unit.
It supplies a gas hob and a fridge freezer.
To access it either the FF has to be pulled out from a tight fit in/under cabinets or an electric under worktop oven removed.

2.For the oven, a spur box cabled from an under worktop cooker cable box.
To access the electric under worktop oven has to be removed.

The oven is at present removed pending a new one so access is at present quite good.

I have very little time available due to SWMBO needing my nursing skills but I would like to improve things simply with minimum effort.

Proposal 1. Plug a 13A extension lead into the 13A double socket And position its box behind the pull off kick board of the base unit.
Low rating fuses for the appliances should ensure the extension lead plug will not need any accessing.
( There is no water piped to that side of the kitchen.)

Proposal 2.Reposition the spur box behind a kick board.

Not pretty but quick and safe ( so far) ?

A further possible complication - the oven installation.
Consumer unit is 2 x 5A and 2 X 30A with no spare slots.
Cooker switch / cabling must obviously be on one of the ring circuits.
Oven is rated at 16A. Oven comes with no cable/plug. Installation instruction mentions " if a plug is used" and connect oven with a 1.5-2.5mm cable.
1.5mm seems a bit skinny.

I intend to basically connect the new oven into the old arrangement.
I guess the cables and spur box are over rated.

I accept that the "proper" solution is probably a new consumer unit with a dedicated cooker MCB but I really want to avoid this for 7 months +



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 Fri 13 Sep 13 18:16 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Zero
I dont see the issue, one simply wires the new cooker the same the old one was. If it all looks ok (no cracked or brown cables/connections) I don't see an issue. Specially for short term.
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 19:45 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Armel Coussine
Quite. But if you consult the wrong sort of electrician you will be hustled to observe the byelaws and spend a pointless fortune.

For the longer term, they must always be above the work surfaces and not too near the sink. There's no problem if you do it yourself and make sure the authorities know nothing about it. Easy.
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 20:15 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - CGNorwich
Except when you come to sell the place.
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 20:18 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Zero
And what happens when you do?*

No-one will check when the new work was done, if they ask it was all like that when you moved in. or you are simply wiring in to existing connections and the change is not big enough to require sign off.


*nothing happens.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 13 Sep 13 at 20:19
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 20:31 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - CGNorwich
"No-one will check when the new work was done"


Actually they will - there is a question about electrical work completed since 2005 on the standard Law Society questionnaire you are required to complete when selling your house.

Of course you may choose not to tell the truth but you will be asked.
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 20:34 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Zero
>> "No-one will check when the new work was done"
>>
>>
>> Actually they will -

No, I said, specifically, "No-one will check"
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 Wed 29 Jan 14 11:36 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Cliff Pope

>>
>> No, I said, specifically, "No-one will check"
>>

And even if someone did have a peep inside one of the sockets, he would naturally find old-colour cabling inside.
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 20:40 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - henry k
>> Except when you come to sell the place.
>>
I made some progress in sorting things out before the flat had to be let.
Poor installation of a Magnet kitchen and all sorts of bodges since. Previous owners must have paid good money for poor workmanship.
I will be returning to the task in the spring.
I have done some unusual plumbing but still have some more to sort out.

Several electrics items are on the list but I suspect the consumer unit swop will be done by one of the experts and we can obtain a certificate at the same time. The consumer unit is on display in the kitchen with all cables buried!!!

My daughter has been a little unlucky with items failing, Electric shower, Fridge/ freezer, Washing machine, boiler sensor and now oven. Guess who has been mostly involved.

Gas board - now 3 years since told must have the electricity meter changed - useless lot
Gas board now a year since gas meter must be changed Ditto
Water board put water meters in. So bad it was a case of " come and install it how I want it of take em out!!" New guy came and did the simple job superbly.

Major company does the inventory condition survey.
So useless and incompetent you just would not believe their efforts
At the end of the let a major stropogram from me will hit the CEO with a threat of going to the press.

Rant over
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 20:43 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - RattleandSmoke
They will be able to tell the installation was post 2005 because the colours on the the T&E will be different. I used to have a stock pile of red and black T&E for this reason, but everything I do now of course is in the blue and brown.
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 20:54 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - RattleandSmoke
Also since April 2013 work in the kitchen is no longer notifiable under Part P expect for new circuits etc. Now if you use a 13 amp FCU then you are fine. You can also add one spur to a socket, but you can't spur of a spur. So if you want to do it legally and go down the DIY route you're still limited to 13 amps which might be an issue in the kitchen.

The problem is you can't spur of a spur unless you use a 13 amp FCU.
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 20:54 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Zero
>> They will be able to tell the installation was post 2005 because the colours on
>> the the T&E will be different. I used to have a stock pile of red
>> and black T&E for this reason, but everything I do now of course is in
>> the blue and brown.

No they won't, new colours were available and ok for use before that date, and old colours are still available now.
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 Wed 29 Jan 14 15:36 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Cliff Pope
>> They will be able to tell the installation was post 2005 because the colours on
>> the the T&E will be different.


Sorry, I was writing TinC. I meant that naturally you will have used old-colour cables just to add verisimilitude to the story that it was all done long before your time.

It's always worth hoarding old stock from car boots etc just in case you have to do some period wiring.
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 Wed 29 Jan 14 15:46 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - henry k
>>It's always worth hoarding old stock from car boots etc just in case you have to do some period wiring.
>>
and plain green earth sleeve to complete to job ( not the new striped stuff) :-)

I still have some BROWN MK 13A sockets somewhere.
They would deter anyone from questioning the vintage
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 Wed 29 Jan 14 17:01 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Mapmaker
>>They would deter anyone from questioning the vintage

Then when your daughter comes to sell her flat after her next posting is complete she'll be told that the flat needs rewiring...
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 Wed 29 Jan 14 19:51 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - henry k
>> >>They would deter anyone from questioning the vintage
>>
>> Then when your daughter comes to sell her flat after her next posting is complete
>> she'll be told that the flat needs rewiring...
>>
Not that I plan to use them but the answer would be " That is all taken into consideration when determining the asking price"

She bought the flat five years ago when prices were just about at their lowest. Now prices are at their highest to date so a gain in value of about 50%.
Any amount spent on upgrading will easily be recouped if she sells.
A very fortunate self funded daughter.
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 Fri 13 Sep 13 21:53 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Armel Coussine
>> Except when you come to sell the place.

Obviously the wiring you do yourself has to be safe. But it will be unless you are utterly hopeless. What I was talking about was pointless faffing about the regs as they call them, which certain people will do.

What they are asking for is a flea in their ear, and that's what I would give them. Jumped up greedy conniving prats.
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 Tue 28 Jan 14 17:42 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - henry k
A belated update to my Fri 13th starter - installing a single electric oven

I eventually connected it to the existing outlet but..
The spur box was obstructing the oven so I detached it from the wall and it is now in effect a fly lead behind the adjacent kick board.

The gas pipe connection to the hob above was also obstructing the oven so I called a gas safe guy in to chop it off and re shape it. £120 for a hours worth of gas " engineer". Tis London call out rates.

Looks good but have had no time to study the very complex manual.

I was switching it on as the tenants arrived. All very rushed but only two months before the tenants depart.

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 Tue 28 Jan 14 18:09 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Dulwich Estate
Too late for you now but I have several double surface mounted socket outlets on the wall, beneath the worktop and behind the drawers - there's quite a bit of room between the back of the drawers and the wall. Access to the sockets is easy - just pull out and remove the drawer.

Although I have fitted a kick board level fly lead to a family member's kitchen I wasn't too happy about it and made sure it was above floor level and I rested it on a few loose ceramic tiles. Kitchens can flood !

I have also made sure I have a near full roll each of red and black 2.5mm2 and 1.5mm2 cable. "It was all there when I moved in your honour !"
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate on Tue 28 Jan 14 at 18:11
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 Tue 28 Jan 14 18:16 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - henry k
>>Too late for you now but I have several double surface mounted socket outlets on the wall, beneath the worktop and behind the drawers - there's quite a bit of room between the back of the drawers and the wall. Access to the sockets is easy - just pull out and remove the drawer
>>
I did eventually work that out but all good advice to all.

I will take your advice and raise the spur box off the floor.
I was just pleased to get the oven installed and working.

I too have some WHITE 2.5 t & E
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 Wed 29 Jan 14 16:27 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Slidingpillar
Years ago, my father and I were re-wiring an oven after a gas fitter had fitted our new gas hob. Basically removing all the old wire for the electric hob, and tiding up.

Some prat of an installer had crossed over the live and neutral...

Easily fixed, but we believe professionals had installed the kitchen.
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 Wed 29 Jan 14 17:16 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Dulwich Estate
Don't talk to me about "professionals".

Take electricians, as it's the current topic -

When the occasion has arisen for me to look into a wall socket I am no longer surprised to see: more than one spur taken off, no connection of the earth wires to the earth lug on the metal box and if done, no sight of the green/yellow insulating sleeve on the earth wires and something I have never, ever seen are the black rubber grommets fitted in the knock-out holes that should protect the cable passing through.

.... and this is only looking in sockets.

It also seems that junction boxes must be in short supply or too expensive. So often I've come across choc block connectors wrapped in insulating tape.

...and more, once or twice I've seen the earth wire snipped off the cable leading to a metal lamp. It's probably too fiddly to try and connect.

Get the professionals in - you're kidding - only when I'm simply too incapable through aged feebleness.
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate on Wed 29 Jan 14 at 17:17
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 Wed 29 Jan 14 18:38 
 Positioning 13A sockets in a kitchen. - Mapmaker
DE +1

Bear in mind that these professionals are charging you £500 a day too.

Entire basement was wired on the basis of a junction box somewhere under the concrete (attached to the consumer unit by some cable, obviously). Fair enough I guess. All the sockets were on spurs coming off that. Nobody could be sure that this contravened the wiring regs.

However, some bright spark had - very recently - put an extension onto the back of the house. The electrics for that were on a ring... which was attached to two of the sockets off spurs.

Now at least it complies with the regs, even if the person who did it... ;)

Oh yes, the builders of that extension had put in a 'loo with a soil pipe that flowed uphill; a set of stairs where the risers were not all the same height. I'm pretty sure there was no insulation in the extension either. And they'd left a 2" gap between the extension and the garden wall on both sides that rats *loved* to live in.

Current place has choc blocks everywhere. Some of them (the more accessible ones) have at least sometimes got insulating tape.

Then there's the plumber who wanted £15k to redo a shower room - that I did in a week. The plasterer (that's a job I won't do, so I'm left in the hands of the over-priced numpties) who when replastering the ceiling instead of removing the ceiling rose plastered it in. And...

Don't get me going.
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