Click HERE for volume 2
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 7 Sep 13 at 16:41
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Politicians don't care what the voters think, unless there is an election looming and it could cost them their job or hit them in the wallet.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 8 Sep 13 at 08:43
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Honestly ON... no wonder you chaps talk such ovoids about politics when you imagine that 'politicians' don't care what voters think and are in politics for the money.
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>> Honestly ON... no wonder you chaps talk such ovoids about politics when you imagine that
>> 'politicians' don't care what voters think and are in politics for the money.
>>
ON is correct - in some cases. See Tony Blair who moulded opinion with lies and made his initial fortune through expenses (allegedly) - and then ensured details of his expenses were deleted (fact).
Not every politician is a lying thieving bar steward like Tony Blair of course - he was clever with it.
Last edited by: madf on Sun 8 Sep 13 at 13:36
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>> in some cases
... and up to a point. But these sweeping generalizations about 'politicians' constitute muddy thinking and don't help anyone understand anything. A more nuanced and flexible attitude is better.
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"But these sweeping generalizations about 'politicians'"
A few months ago on here, we tried to name some examples of decent, 'honest' politicians ............ IIRC, we didn't get to ten!
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>> A few months ago on here, we tried to name some examples of decent, 'honest'
>> politicians ............ IIRC, we didn't get to ten!
If the search was for an honourable politician then The Beast of Bolsover is one of about 3 i can think of.
Worth ten minutes of your time to listen to this woman, not too bad on the old mince pies either.
tinyurl.com/ne4kdjr
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>> If the search was for an honourable politician then The Beast of Bolsover is one
>> of about 3 i can think of.
>>
Hypocritical old fraud. He spent his life saying retirement at 65 should be compulsory to create jobs for younger people then came up with about ten good reasons why it didn't apply to him when he reached that age.
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>> If the search was for an honourable politician then The Beast of Bolsover is one
>> of about 3 i can think of.
I'd nominate the late Lord (Tony) Newton and past/current Northampton MPs Sally Keeble and Brian Binley. Bernard Jenkin and Alan Beith both seem to do a good job as Select Committee Chairs too, without the ostentation of Margaret 'Enver' Hodge.
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>>Worth ten minutes of your time to listen to this woman, not too bad on the old mince pies either.
tinyurl.com/ne4kdjr
Good one gb - Thanks.
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Depends what you mean by politicians I suppose Haywain. There aren't all that many high profile ones. But there are 650 or so MPs, a slew of Lords and absolutely endless swag-bellied aldermen... do we really imagine they are all or nearly all venal and corrupt (beyond what is necessary for the job of course)?
There's also a tendency for people to take politics personally, take it to heart and conceive enormous mad tabloid hatreds for this 'politician' or that. Like all professions it has its grubby side but that seems childish to me.
Mind you a much-mocked politician I often defend, John Prescott, is in my bad books at present. Blunt is one thing, thick is another. Tchah!
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"a much-mocked politician I often defend, John Prescott,"
Eh, AC??? Did I hear that correctly???
Ah well, that makes two of you .................... yesterday evening, an old friend who should have known better, was defending JP. I assumed that she was just trying to wind me up!
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More reasons not to jump into bed with the Syrian rebels.
tinyurl.com/onmc5w2
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isn't it ironic that our governments want to assist Al-Qaeda in Syria yet they 'apparently' ran the whole 9/11 show !
The governments must think were all thick.
I personally think it's related to natural gas.
i.e. Europe is fed up with gas only supplied from Russia and Qatar has shed loads.
Qatar wants to build a pipe line through Syria to link up with Turkey.
That way Europe can then afford to be selective where to get gas from and the price comes down.
Assad (and the Russians) don't want this pipeline hence the current state of affairs.
At the end of the day it's all about money and resources NOT humanitarian aid or suffering.
Me and you have no value to the powers that be.
Just my view on the middle east....
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Good point but how does that impact on the Yanks who are spoiling for a fight?
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because they want their fingers controlling the taps just like in Iraq (or to a small degree Libya).
Another point to remember is that China is building a pipe line (Sino-Myanmar pipeline) that they plane to eventually link up with the middle east.
So even though it may not appear that America has a vested interest, they earn money by spinning out contracts to western companies in occupied countries and they still have control of the relevant resource.
Not a well known story but China's ongoing march
thediplomat.com/china-power/with-pipeline-chinas-launches-burma-charm-offensive/
Last edited by: diddy1234 on Mon 9 Sep 13 at 10:30
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>> because they want their fingers controlling the taps just like in Iraq (or to a
>> small degree Libya).
>>
I think if anything is going to give politicians sleepless nights it is the lack of "Resources". There is nothing like fuel rationing, food shortages, not to mention water, and the lights going out to upset the punters.
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Given the US fraccing success which has decimated gas and oil prices in the US, I think the last thing at present the US worries about is energy shortages...they have huge surpluses.
Which is another reason why the US population is hardly gung ho for war.
(The biggest enemy threatening UK energy supplies is not Russia China or the Syrians. It's home grown Greens..)
Last edited by: madf on Mon 9 Sep 13 at 11:54
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>> Assad (and the Russians) don't want this pipeline hence the current state of affairs.
{snigger}
I get a good laugh out of all this conspiracy theory stuff, fuelled by people who think they see the world as it really is., and that everybody else are just sheep, gobbling up the lies of politicians.
The suggestion that an attack would be to displace Assad, so that a gas pipeline can be built. {chortle}
The idea that the US would spend $3 trillion on a war to somehow get access to Iraqi oil. {guffaw}
The reason for these conflicts may not be good, but they are not about oil and gas pipelines. There is no guarantee that a new government would be open to a pipeline, and there is nothing to suggest that the US is ever going to get cheap oil from Iraq, or even contracts to make the whole thing anywhere near worthwhile.
>> isn't it ironic that our governments want to assist Al-Qaeda in Syria yet they 'apparently' ran the whole 9/11 show
'apparently' {giggle}
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You're wasting your breath SS. They know better.
(titter)
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SS & AC are free to snigger, all opinions are welcome, even if they are wrong. :-)
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well I could be wrong and in some ways I wish I am.
However, I am a conspiracy theorist on this matter as we seem to be giving away 'aid'
1. we just don't have the money
2. why are we giving away money to terrorists ? isn't that illegal ?
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There aren't any terrorists, or allies. There are forces it suits us to side with at one particular moment, and there are people it suits us to oppose at another.
Our history is littered with respected elder statemen who at one time were labelled "terrorists".
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Diddy do keep up :-)
They were terrorists yesterday, they are our bestest mates today doncha know and those internet feeds showing them cuddly wuddly rebels murdering must be fakes, anybody's guess what tomorrow brings maybe they'll have more luck finding chemical traces than they did WMD.
Money not a problem we can always print or borrow a bit more, by the time it needs repaying another face will be in number 10 blaming the last lot and thinking of his/her own little war.
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>> Did I hear that correctly???
Yes you did. Prescott was quite right to thump the twit who tried to egg him, and I find his Old-Labour droning quite soothing and reassuring, a familiar background noise.
But spouting about things he doesn't begin to understand using the word 'crusade' several times is deeply stupid, George Galloway-style crap-stirring and mischief making. He should have kept it shut that time, or put a pork pie in it.
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>> Yes you did. Prescott was quite right to thump the twit who tried to egg
>> him, and I find his Old-Labour droning quite soothing and reassuring, a familiar background noise.
Agreed, a good whack on the snout drawing blood would have served him right, Prescott went way up in my book that day, i'd have cheered like billio had he laid the twerp out for the count.
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"Prescott was quite right to thump the twit who tried to egg him, "
Well, OK, I'll give you that - but it's going to take a lot to convince me that he is anything other than a blustering buffoon. The electorate told him that when he stood for PCC - and the look on the clown's face afterwards ............ wonderful!
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Anyone in public office who screws their staff is a dimwit - bound to get out.
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>>Putin 1 Obama 0...tee hee.
Are you sure?
Seems like the US could claim that their involvement & hard-line rhetoric eventually forced both Russia and Syria to look for a way out that would placate the US. I 'm not saying I would subscribe to that view, but I suspect the US media and electorate would.
Not sure about "tee hee". Perhaps I missed the amusing bit.
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>> Not sure about "tee hee". Perhaps I missed the amusing bit.
>>
Just supposing for a moment The Assad government agree to this and comply.
1. That would foster positive impressions, and they wanted to diffuse the situation, making any reprisals then look even more like open aggression.
2. Any further use of such weapons would suggest others responsible, and increase suspicions that others were responsible for the last use, point being no one trusts the word of the West or its leaders any more over middle east meddling following WMD and the Blair creature.
3. Use of chemical weapons is the reason Obama and his poodles both here and in France give for requiring backing to ''retalliate'', throwing this nice shiny spanner in the works will make it increasingly difficult to convince their respective governments to back action, and makes UN agreement all but impossible.
The Russian bear looks like a world mediator at this point and the current western leaders open aggressors, no its obviously not as simple as all that, but amusing nontheless to see Obama caught on the wrong foot for the time being.
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Here's a clip of someone who really does not admire Obama (Fox news - so get ready for the sneers)
youtu.be/UZ7j_4tuxlE
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>> a clip of someone who really does not admire Obama (Fox news
After listening to that ghastly gurning spiteful raucous Republican boot for more than ten minutes - it took some effort - I have concluded that she fancies the President sexually. Doubt if she'll have much luck though.
Of course she's wrong about Obama - Fox tends to be wrong about almost everything - but not really about the 'red line' nonsense. No one's perfect, not even the Commander in Chief.
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>> but amusing nontheless
>> to see Obama caught on the wrong foot for the time being.
>>
I agree. It's difficult not to betray a small smirk.
That photo a few days ago of Putin shaking hands with Obama was priceless - crafty scheming Putin looking sideways and with half-concealed contempt at smug complacent Obama, as if to say "You lightweight - you are about to realise you are out of your depth".
Putin is a nasty piece of work, but one has to have a grudging admiration for his style.
Dave must be secretly glad he lost the vote just in time.
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I suppose it depends on how you view these things, I wouldn't say Putin was that crafty, he has to go down that line because he has few other options. The americans can just afford to ignore him otherwise. We don't know the back story, this plan could give all parties a face saving out option (apart from the rebels). Seems a bit far fetched to me to start cataloguing various chemical weapons in the middle of a civil war, but who knows?
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>>
>> Seems a bit far fetched to me to start cataloguing various chemical weapons in the
>> middle of a civil war, but who knows?
>>
I don't imagine anyone thinks it would be realistic or would achieve anything, any more than bombing would solve anything.
The point seems to be that politicians feel they have to be seen to be doing something, so it doesn't really matter what. Sometimes they want to look tough, and sometimes like a peacemaker. Putin has suddenly caught Obama on the hop, leaving him looking like a war-monger abandoned by his allies and increasingly his own public opinion, leaving Putin looking like the only sensible and humane person in the ring.
No one cares if they never actually find any chemical weapons to hand over. It's like "decommisioning" - a PR gesture that serves it's purpose. If they ever actually need to pretend to find the weapons they can drum up an intelligence report.
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It seems Assad now supports Putin's proposal. This is odd as it would weaken Syria's position militarily (although it would put Obama even further on the back foot). But no-one outside the Assad circle knows where all the storage sites are and they are thought to be widely dispersed. It would take ages to inspect them all, even if a list were provided, giving time for relocation to other, secret caches and even if attacks by either side were suspended pro tem.
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>> It seems Assad now supports Putin's proposal. This is odd as it would weaken Syria's position militarily (although it would put Obama even further on the back foot).
The Assads (some say Bashar's little brother is more important than he is) don't really have a choice. The Russian-supplied weaponry could be under part-Russian supervision anyway. By appearing to 'assent' to the proposal Syria remains under Russian protection and a sticky situation all round is averted. Win-win-win, apart from the Islamist savages who have done so well under the Assads' civil war chaos... but will the Russians now lean on the murdering brutes to stop massacring the population and make room for a more civilised regime? Go on, hold your breath. It'll be good for you.
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It is difficult to work out President Putins mind.He leans to Germany first country he always visits.He acts like a dictator but is he? Maybe his ego he is short and stocky something to prove maybe.You are right about Assads brother who appears to run the show in Syria A.C.Just get the feeling that Russia wants to go back to the cold war scenario,why I don't know.Maybe it is all a charade and the simple folk are caught up in it.
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Its but a small chess move in a much bigger game, wonder if those poor Syrians (or Iraqis or Afghans or Libyans etc etc) find being pawns in these power games such a good wheeze.
None of it will make any difference to the poor blighters caught in the target areas mind when Obama gets his way, they'll be just as dead.
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>> Its but a small chess move in a much bigger game
Balderdash. It isn't all one 'game', and everyone isn't someone else's puppet in an unbroken chain from the secret policeman or terrorist up through the great and bad to the Evil One himself... it's much, much more complicated and difficult than that.
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Tell me again at your amusement at Obama's wrong foot.
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As far as I'm concerned the real Syrian crisis will be if the two million refugees try to come over here.
;-)
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That is cynical Les.Just be happy you live here God forbid if we had to go through their nightmare.
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>> As far as I'm concerned the real Syrian crisis will be if the two million
>> refugees try to come over here.
>> ;-)
>>
I note your smiley L'Es, but I do wonder what UKIP supporters who think the residents of Syria as "poor blighters" would have to say if we did see a large number of immigration/asylum applications.
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Well one thing is for sure, Under Human Rights the courts would refuse repatriation of any Syrian refugees who arrive here....
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>> Well one thing is for sure, Under Human Rights the courts would refuse repatriation of
>> any Syrian refugees who arrive here....
Hooray for the European Convention and Human Rights Act then.
Last week, in a judgement that panned the Family Court system, the Appeal Court found for an 'unimpeachable' Father in access dispute with a recalcitrant Mother over their daughter. The key ground on which he succeeded involved right to family life under Article 8.
Strangely enough the Mail failed to headline it
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 10 Sep 13 at 18:50
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If the rule of "first safe country" is observed, then no Syrian refugees should arrive here!
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>> If the rule of "first safe country" is observed, then no Syrian refugees should arrive
>> here!
Lebanon then flight to London?
Beirut may be safe for some of Syria's ethnic hotchpotch but no way for others.
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>Lebanon then flight to London?
Don't we have multi million dollar fines for airlines carrying passengers without valid documentation?
>Beirut may be safe for some of Syria's ethnic hotchpotch but no way for others.
BS. You could say that about Luton.
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>> Don't we have multi million dollar fines for airlines carrying passengers without valid documentation?
>>
Probably, but Syrian refugees are not wholly dispossessed and may have valid passports etc.
Would we have turned escapees from Warsaw Pact away and fined BA for letting them travel?
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>Probably, but Syrian refugees are not wholly dispossessed and may have valid passports etc.
Yeah, fully stamped with a valid UK visa.
>Would we have turned escapees from Warsaw Pact away and fined BA for letting them travel?
Irrelevant straw man.
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>> >> Don't we have multi million dollar fines for airlines carrying passengers without valid documentation?
>>
>> >>
>>
>> Probably, but Syrian refugees are not wholly dispossessed and may have valid passports etc
But no visas. No entry visa no boarding
>> Would we have turned escapees from Warsaw Pact away and fined BA for letting them
>> travel?
They didnt fly from the Iron Curtain to the UK.
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>t no visas. No entry visa no boarding
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>>
>> >> Would we have turned escapees from Warsaw Pact away and fined BA for letting
>> them
>> >> travel?
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>> They didnt fly from the Iron Curtain to the UK.
>>
Anyone like to seriously suggests the UK state can afford to pay benefits to millions of refugees coming to the UK - whilst at the same time funding one of the most generous Aid budgets in the world?
At a time when we do not have enough housing for our own citizens plus exiting immigrants?
You can't live in the UK over winter in tents. Or you can but the Human Rights Act would probably be used to prevent it.
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Of course we should let everyone in. But do you think we should perhaps draw a line - 3, 4 or 5 million? Perhaps we shouldn't draw a line at all, eh?
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>>Roll on May 2014, too!
I had to think about that one!
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>> Roll on May 2014, too!
>>
You're worse than Dog.
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>> Roll on May 2015.
>>
That's wishing your life away. You might not last that long.
;-)
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>>You might not last that long.
I thought that back in 1969!
:}
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The most recent clip of Vladimir Putin commenting on this matter, which I have seen two or three times, gives me immense pleasure. What he's saying is well known and almost irrelevant. The beautiful thing is the expression on his face, which keeps trying to evolve into a sunny smile of triumph until he remembers that his role is to be strict, rational, sanctimonious and severe. He can't keep that look up for more than a few seconds though. Has me in fits of laughter.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 14 Sep 13 at 14:51
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An interesting slant on Syria, from the site Rodger posted regarding Cameron:
www.th-eu-nit.com/index.php/articles/3007-europes-secret-syrian-agenda
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Now there is a surprise, "Resources" are involved, same as most wars.
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Looks as if it's all over for the time being, bar a few months of shouting and arguing.
But: that leaves the repellent Syrian tyranny under Russian protection. There's no indication that it will be leaned on to stop the civil war.
On the other side, groups of Islamist toerags have infiltrated the country and are doing bad Islamist things. Who is going to make them go away or change their tune?
Once seriously crossed, the Assads chose to start an unstoppable civil war that is destroying the country. If anyone in the world deserves to be assassinated, it's those carphounds. Not that that would solve anything. But it would seem just.
Tsk. This stuff is infectious. I'm thinking like a Syrian.
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Not
>> that that would solve anything. But it would seem just.
>>
I think that's the basic problem we are facing, whatever anyone does. Nothing will solve anything, but the desire to "do something" is almost overwhelming.
Interventionist cures are almost always worse than the disease, unless we propose occupying a country with overwhelming force and then giving it 50 years of peaceful colonial rule. But we aren't, and neither are the French, who were so keen to take on this problem in 1916.
www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n11/patrick-cockburn/is-it-the-end-of-sykes-picot
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Assad is claiming that being made to give up his WMD is a "victory" for Syria.
I nice piece of Newspeak. Orwell, thou shouldst be living at this hour!
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>> Assad is claiming that being made to give up his WMD is a "victory" for
>> Syria.
>>
>> I nice piece of Newspeak. Orwell, thou shouldst be living at this hour!
In sense that it's seen off prospect of any US/international intervention then arguably he has won.
Still free to murder his own citizens with bullets, bombs etc.
Conversley, intervention might have tipped balance against him allowing more gains to the mish mash coalition known as 'the rebels'.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 16 Sep 13 at 13:56
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>>
>> In sense that it's seen off prospect of any US/international intervention then arguably he has
>> won.
>>
Of course. The winner is the one left with the strategic advantage and his objectives intact, not the one that merely wins the battle.
That's why Jutland was an overwhelming British victory. The Germans tried to challenge high-seas supremacy. They never ventured out again. The British wanted to keep mastery of the sea and maintain the blockade. They succeeded.
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Don't think any of the antagonists involved here from any side incl the itching (to get involved) West sport halos.
Considering how advanced they are in terms of filming atrocities then editing and producing propaganda, it all seems so at odds with the savage medieval tribal barbarity all sides have shown themselves capable of and then nip off to pray when the call comes.
A remote missile strike seems so much 'nicer' doesn't it, in the blast zone footage you don't see the shocking ending of life as you would when they are murdered at close hand, just a big firework doing its thing, people are just as dead.
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tinyurl.com/mnjbll3
Old Holborn on Syria,
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 16 Sep 13 at 19:46
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>> tinyurl.com/mnjbll3
>> Old Holborn on Syria,
Honestly Roger, that's as near as dammit the silly-liberal Grauniad line. There's more to being respectable than just not being Islamist. The same thick, dismal mistake was made with the horrible Saddam in Iraq.
The whole point about Baathists is that they are fascist to the core. Never mind the Assads' record of unhesitating mass murder. Didn't you see that clip the other day of innocent little schoolgirl government loyalists in Syria, singing a boring song and all making innocent little Nazi salutes? I did, and it didn't seem anomalous to me in any way.
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Syrian rebels start fighting each other..
tinyurl.com/ptg4jz9
Glad we are not involved. I suspect Mr Cameron is as well.
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Steering clear of any politics we watched this programme tonight. Heart wrenching, especially the last couple of minutes.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03c7m8s/Panorama_Saving_Syrias_Children/
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Syrian crisis - Volume 3 - Roger.
