It's probably evident that we don't have kids, and indeed, I don't think I've actually spoken to a child in any meaningful way since I was one myself.
But I know many (most?) of the forum do. So - local story, mum in shop, child (apparently autistic) aged three cries a lot, gets asked to take child out to calm down, mum goes to paper outraged, so forth.
In your experience, you must have had kids causing disturbances in public places. Do you just mentally shrug and carry on as you are, or do/did you scurry out clutching little bundle of trouble?
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 22 Aug 13 at 11:35
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My children, now grown up, were always perfectly behaved :-)
However my best buddy's eldest has an autistic child (you dont live in Newcastle by any chance?)
It is hard enough for her when her son kicks off in public to deal with it without, stares, comments etc from people who really need to mind their own business
Parents of autistic kids cannot keep them shut up and locked away so they don't bother anyone
lets cut parents in such situations a bit of slack. It's not usually difficult to tell which kids are the ones with a condition such as autism and which ones are just little hooligans left to run riot while mum checks her facebook on her mobile.
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Posted this link on a new thread earlier this week but it has disappeared.
It refers to tolerance or lack thereof of an autistic kid:
tinyurl.com/kfss3cu
(The Independent)
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>>In your experience, you must have had kids causing disturbances in public places
Very rarely, but it has happened.
I cringe with shame and embarassment and take the child outside. Then we deal with it and return with the child at least quiet, albeit perhaps not full of the joys of spring.
To be honest though, that's probably happened 2 or 3 times ever. Normally its just high spirits and a matter of reminding them gently that there is a difference between a shop, restaurant or office and a playground.
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Children are perfectly capable of behaving appropriately. It is usually the parents who are challenged.
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>> Children are perfectly capable of behaving appropriately. It is usually the parents who are challenged.
>>
I'm often saddened by the ghastly parents lots of children have to put up with.
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The situation is covered by being able to choose your friends but not your relatives (including parents).
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True about relatives you can't choose them.I got a clip around the ear from my mother if I played up.I didn't argue with my old man to big for me.
Had a walk in Halfords today (I know rip off shop) One bloke in the shop was drilling some board.Young lad upstairs in the bicycle section was screaming his head off.I got out for a bit of peace.
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... should be seen, but not heard.
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I was well put in my place by one of my children, at least 30 years ago, and I still remember it! The 5 of us went into a restaurant and the youngest went under the table and started messing about. Come out and sit down properly please, what do you think you are doing I asked. I can't help it Daddy, it is the way God made me! Nowhere to from there really! Came out, sat down and we had a nice meal
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Plenty places to go from that one along the lines of "Once God had made you he gave you to Mum and I to polish of the rough edges so get back on your chair now please or you and I wil go outside for a little chat"
Judging by your result that part of the conversation was understood if not said.
Last edited by: commerdriver on Thu 22 Aug 13 at 15:49
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Hell is a fidgety, noisy, brat in the seat behind you on an EasyJet flight to/from Malaga!
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shouldn't it be
Hell is ( a fidgety, noisy, brat in the seat behind you on) an EasyJet flight to/from Malaga!
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I've flown plenty of EasyJet flights on the Malaga (AGP) to EMA route.
For what you pay the service is acceptable.
I have also flown Ryanair on the same route and the experience is not as good!
Jet2 had nasty plastic seats in their ancient 'planes to Malaga from Leeds/Bradford.
BMI Baby was the best of the budget airlines from EMA to AGP from my experience.
Last edited by: Roger on Thu 22 Aug 13 at 19:26
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And then finding it is in your hotel!
Last edited by: Meldrew on Thu 22 Aug 13 at 18:06
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With age I have become more indulgent towards children and much more censorious towards their parents. Noisy or bad-mannered children are invariably accompanied by parents who are either noisy and bad-mannered themselves or soppily, wimpishly indulgent as well as ignorant and insensitive.
I well remember a train journey in France made hellish by a North African or Arab child of about 3, beautifully dressed and with very respectable looking parents, whose main mode of communication was a piercing shriek not unlike a train whistle. The vile brat uttered this sound, painful to an ageing ear, once every thirty seconds for a couple of hours, the parents to all appearances being quite happy with him and making no attempt at any time to shut him up. It took iron self-control not to give them a mouthful.
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I had a lengthy conversation with a mate's wife at a dinner party not that long ago..on the lines of what we're talking about on this thread.
She thought it was hilarious that my wife and I wouldn't contemplate a long flight for a holiday whilst our kids are so young (5.5 and 18months)...and she kept trying to win the point.
I told her, fairly bluntly, that if I go on a long flight and have a squawking kid near me..I find it the end of the world..so why would I wish to inflict mine on other people?
She just did not get it. She proudly told me she'd taken all her three kids when they were babies and it never entered her head not to.
I consider her in that regard to be utterly selfish.
My 5.5 year old is pretty good (he has to be)..but nevertheless he gets tired and grumpy on a long trip, it's the norm.
If someone offered a premium service to fly without kids, I'd pay it, willingly.
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>> I consider her in that regard to be utterly selfish.
>>
Unfortunately she seems to be in a majority these days, A me first, sod everyone else attitude.
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If you buy a plane ticket you get a seat and flight to your destination. You do not get a right to choose your fellow passenger and demand they are to your liking. Personally I prefer a young family near me to a moaning OAP but I have had my share of the latter.
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>> Personally I prefer a young family near me to a moaning OAP but I have had my share of the latter.
Nothing wrong with a young family. Children are naturally boisterous and anarchist, liable to do the unexpected and perhaps be a bit sprauncy.
That is quite different from raising a child with every appearance of physical care, but with a level of communication so poor that the child simply screams, quite happily, all the time for two hours without being spoken to or entertained or distracted by his bland middle-class parents. It's a mentality absolutely opaque to me. And the chances are the nipper will be a goddam moron all his life.
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She just did not get it.
She found the idea that people might not want a screaming kid next to them on a flight that hard to grasp?
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I wonder how many autistic kids really are autistic rather than just left to run riot by stupid parents?
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Few kids are as irritating as the slightly elderly lady I once met on a train. She talked absolutely continuously and loudly to her female companions who seem happy with her monologue which went on for at least 2 hours.
The icing on the cake was when she started to complain her throat hurt. Lord knows how I resisted the temptation to say "if you kept quiet for a few hours it might start to get better..."
Once kids are over about 3 I can generally deal with them (non percussively of course) although the bigger problem then is usually the parents. Strict schoolteacher mode can be very effective.
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>> I wonder how many autistic kids really are autistic rather than just left to run
>> riot by stupid parents?
>>
If you had one or even knew one or two you would know the difference, there are different levels of autism but young children who cannot verbalise their feelings or wishes and whose emotional range is limited get incredibly frustrated and are not just "badly behaved"
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>> If you had one or even knew one or two you would know the difference,
>> there are different levels of autism but young children who cannot verbalise their feelings or
>> wishes and whose emotional range is limited get incredibly frustrated and are not just "badly
>> behaved"
>>
I'm sure there's a world of difference, but it doesn't stop parents blaming autism for their own child rearing failings just as it doesn't stop parents who never bothered to make sure their kids attended school blaming their illiteracy on dyslexia. Ditto those who can't work because they are "Disabled", every condition has it's genuine numbers swelled by the bandwagon jumpers.
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>> She just did not get it.
>>
>> She found the idea that people might not want a screaming kid next to them
>> on a flight that hard to grasp?
>>
I think it was more the case of... 'I've got a right to take a kid, so sod everyone else' and 'why on earth would we deprive ourselves of a family holiday, because of thinking of the thoughts of other people'
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>> I think it was more the case of... 'I've got a right to take a
>> kid, so sod everyone else' and 'why on earth would we deprive ourselves of a
>> family holiday, because of thinking of the thoughts of other people'
>>
As an extra.
We occasionally nip down the local pub, with the kids, and at 6pm have a family meal, so by 7.15pm - 7.30-pm we are home again.
Last time, the 18 month old was fairly vocal. So we've decided to hit it on the head for a while, until she isn't.
Afore mentioned lady would go anyway, wouldn't she.
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If someone offered a premium service to fly without kids, I'd pay it, willingly.
"Non-Squaking"
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>>She found the idea that people might not want a screaming kid next to them on a flight that hard to grasp?
The lack of grasping normally comes from the parent in charge who seems not realise that children can behave decently.
No. 1 did her first intercontinental flight when she was 6 weeks old. She must have done about 40 intercontinental return trips since then (80 flights) plus I don't know how many short haul, but loads.
No 2. also flew within her first two months and will have done 8/11 of her sisters total.
They are quiet, well behaved, polite and offend nobody. They do not kick the seat in front or scream when they want something. They use please & thank you's with adults, staff or other children.
You don;t need to pay to fly without kids, you need to pay to fly without idiots, whether or not they have kids with them. And that would be my primary objection to cheap flights - even idiots can afford them.
I've had mine in First and they've behaved perfectly whereas I've seen others in First behave badly. But as a rule paying more does tend to avoid the worst.
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I wasn't such so much knocking her choice to take the kids more inability to see another viewpoint.
She must have done about 40 intercontinental return trips since then (80 flights) plus I don't know how many short haul, but loads.
wow quite a few flights you must clock up the airmiles!
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>>wow quite a few flights you must clock up the airmiles!
Given what I spend you'd hope so....
Flights for the family cost me between £4,000 and £10,000. That's an awful lot of money just for the journey.
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From what I remember on here, you work in chile? Flights back to the UK I guess. Aye a fair wedge from your above post per year.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 22 Aug 13 at 22:01
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Family in Santiago, Chile; Rio de Janeiro, Brazil; Seattle, US and England and currently we're in Chile.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 22 Aug 13 at 22:15
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These days an aircraft is just a bus with wings, unfortunately it is more difficult to stop and chuck someone off.
I use busses and trains less than aircraft but have never seen a passenger tantrum about a delayed or cancelled bus or train, unlike the several I have seen at airports. Why do airline customers expect total food and accommodation support but bus and train don't?
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"They are quiet, well behaved, polite and offend nobody."
I suspect that they are quiet, well behaved and polite but unfortunately there is an element in society that seems to be offended by the very presence of children. I witnessed an incident last month in the dining room of a pub one Sunday lunchtime A young girl around 3 years old strayed away from the parents table. A miserable man of about fifty shouted to the parents "to keep their brat under control". The family were clearly shocked and the incident ruined our meal too.
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>> I had a lengthy conversation with a mate's wife at a dinner party not that
>> long ago..on the lines of what we're talking about on this thread.
>>
>> She thought it was hilarious that my wife and I wouldn't contemplate a long flight
>> for a holiday whilst our kids are so young (5.5 and 18months)...and she kept trying
>> to win the point.
>>
>> I told her, fairly bluntly, that if I go on a long flight and have
>> a squawking kid near me..I find it the end of the world..so why would I
>> wish to inflict mine on other people?
Flew my Kid to Australia (and back unfortunately).
If you don't like it buy your own aeroplane, otherwise put up with it. (on a long flight they fall asleep mostly) At least he wasn't flapping his seat back up and down like the adult in front.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 23 Aug 13 at 12:45
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>> Flew my Kid to Australia (and back unfortunately).
>>
>> If you don't like it buy your own aeroplane, otherwise put up with it. (on
>> a long flight they fall asleep mostly) At least he wasn't flapping his seat back
>> up and down like the adult in front.
>>
Ah, another fully paid up member of 'cobblers to everyone else'
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>> >> If you don't like it buy your own aeroplane, otherwise put up with it.
>>
>> Ah, another fully paid up member of 'cobblers to everyone else'
Ah, another fully paid up member of the "I'm so important that children should be prevented from going anywhere that they might upset my right to peace and quiet" club.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Fri 23 Aug 13 at 17:30
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>> Ah, another fully paid up member of the "I'm so important that children should be
>> prevented from going anywhere that they might upset my right to peace and quiet" club.
There's a happy medium to be had...and having young children myself I don't expect perfection...however neither do I wish mayhem...and increasingly nowadays there are people who do not give two hoots and let their kids roam free.
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Yeah well some of us don't let our kids roam free, some of us have got the perfect balance of taking kids out, and away, introducing them to the world in a fuss free manner.
You wanna try it before you start having a pop at the rest of us.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 23 Aug 13 at 17:56
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>> You wanna try it before you start having a pop at the rest of us.
>>
How do you know I don't already?....and it's just the plethora of pig ignorant people who let their kids do what they like who have formed my opinion.
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>> >> You wanna try it before you start having a pop at the rest of
>> us.
>> >>
>> How do you know I don't already?....
Well clearly as you don't take your kids anywhere, I would say its dead certainty they wont know how to behave in those place you dont take them.
When your kids have traveled and grown up, then come back and tell us how to do it.
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>> Well clearly as you don't take your kids anywhere, I would say its dead certainty
>> they wont know how to behave in those place you dont take them.
>>
>> When your kids have traveled and grown up, then come back and tell us how
>> to do it.
>>
Oh I see. I cannot have an opinion or walk around and see things with my eyes open..until I've actually done it myself...and until then have to seek the knowledge of someone who's (allegedly) got it right before me...oh wonderful one.
Please be assured, I've just done a deep bow towards the screen to show my respect for your greatness.
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>> >> Well clearly as you don't take your kids anywhere, I would say its dead
>> certainty
>> >> they wont know how to behave in those place you dont take them.
>> >>
>> >> When your kids have traveled and grown up, then come back and tell us
>> how
>> >> to do it.
>> >>
>>
>> Oh I see. I cannot have an opinion or walk around and see things with
>> my eyes open..until I've actually done it myself..
So do tell, how do you plan to educate your kids on how to behave on a plane when they have never been on one, or a restaurant when you never take them there, how they going to find out what its like to think for themselves when you wont allow them on school trips.
have you taught your kids how to behave on an Aeroplane? Or a train? or a restaurant?
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 23 Aug 13 at 21:30
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>> So do tell, how do you plan to educate your kids on how to behave
>> on a plane when they have never been on one, or a restaurant when you
>> never take them there, how they going to find out what its like to think
>> for themselves when you wont allow them on school trips.
>>
>> have you taught your kids how to behave on an Aeroplane? Or a train? or
>> a restaurant?
>>
My eldest, now 5.5, went on a plane to Florida when he was 2.5 and we did the Disney bit. He was exceptionally well behaved, albeit very tired at the end of it and the flight being delayed for 2 hours didn't help. It was more tiring for us as he never stopped all the flight, bar the last hour. I cannot imagine anyone around us was overly bothered by him as we wouldn't allow him to be annoying to others...but sadly more and more people nowadays do not think like that.
We now have an 18 month old to complement the 5.5 year old. They bounce off each other..and annoy each other...and we have made a conscious decision to keep them off planes until she is more manageable.
We often use the channel ferry system to visit my mother in law in France.
We regularly eat out, with the kids, but last time the 18 month old performed when she got fed up with sitting in the high chair...so we'll give it a break until she is more malleable.
Dart Valley Railway last Christmas was the last train we went on, a Santa Steam Special and before that it was the Fort William to Mallaig and return steam train. The kids behaved well, as we'd expect them to.
We don't do public transport much, so we'll just have to use general life skills to teach them about that, you know the sort of thing when you go into someone else's house..or a shop..or whatever.
Sorry to disappoint you.
My point is simply having a strategy for being reasonable with other people when you have kids...and then the fact that plenty nowadays couldn't give a monkeys about that angle...and how irritating it is....not about us joining some Amish sect.
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>> >> So do tell, how do you plan to educate your kids on how to
>> behave
>> >> on a plane when they have never been on one, or a restaurant when
>> you
>> >> never take them there, how they going to find out what its like to
>> think
>> >> for themselves when you wont allow them on school trips.
>> >>
>> >> have you taught your kids how to behave on an Aeroplane? Or a train?
>> or
>> >> a restaurant?
>> >>
>> My eldest, now 5.5, went on a plane to Florida when he was 2.5 and
>> we did the Disney bit.
Ah right! its ok for you to take your kids on the plane, but not your friends. Now we are getting somewhere, you are in effect saying your friends are poor parents. Would have saved us a lot of agro if you had said that up front.
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>> Ah right! its ok for you to take your kids on the plane, but not
>> your friends. Now we are getting somewhere, you are in effect saying your friends are
>> poor parents. Would have saved us a lot of agro if you had said that
>> up front.
Chhrrriiiisssstt. What on earth are you on? My mate's kids are all exceptionally well behaved, well brought up young ladies, the eldest is a doctor, middle one just finished uni and the youngest about to go there. Their parents are straightforward, supportive well mannered people who brought their children up well.
It's the PRINCIPLE of being thoughtful of other people where children are concerned. Nothing more, nothing less.
My wife and I made a conscious decision to leave air travel for a bit...not permanently exclude ourselves....and we made that decision AFTER our Florida holiday, having experienced it.
Last edited by: Westpig on Sat 24 Aug 13 at 13:51
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>> >> Ah right! its ok for you to take your kids on the plane, but
>> not
>> >> your friends. Now we are getting somewhere, you are in effect saying your friends
>> are
>> >> poor parents. Would have saved us a lot of agro if you had said
>> that
>> >> up front.
>>
>> Chhrrriiiisssstt. What on earth are you on? My mate's kids are all exceptionally well behaved,
>> well brought up young ladies, the eldest is a doctor, middle one just finished uni
>> and the youngest about to go there. Their parents are straightforward, supportive well mannered people
>> who brought their children up well.
>>
>> It's the PRINCIPLE of being thoughtful of other people where children are concerned. Nothing more,
>> nothing less.
But you said those specific parents should not be allowed to travel with their well behaved kids. No wonder they told you to sod off.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 24 Aug 13 at 13:52
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>> But you said those specific parents should not be allowed to travel with their well
>> behaved kids. No wonder they told you to sod off.
What baby or very young toddler could ever be described as well behaved?
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>>> Ah right! its ok for you to take your kids on the plane, but
>> not
>> >> your friends.
>> Chhrrriiiisssstt. What on earth are you on?
With all due respect chaps, you remind me of a couple of tattooed non-yummy mothers brawlling in the gutter outside a primary school, setting a good example to the nippers, because one thinks the other has dissed her little hellion...
There's something about children that brings out the worst in parents.
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I'm not sure why the focus on children as undesirable fellow passengers. I'd swap an unruly 3 year old for any of the following
1 The really fat bloke who doesn't fit into a seat and spills over into mine.
2 The hen or stag party
3 The guy who has never heard of deodorant
4 The man with a streaming cold - You just know you will come down with it your holiday
5 The nervous flyer who want to talk for the next four hours
6 They guy with the earphones whose music leaks out throughout the flight
7 The guy who rams his seat back as far as it will go as soon as you the set belt sign is off
I'm sure there are lot more too
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>> I'm sure there are lot more too
8. Chewing gum chewer who chews with their mouth open.
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>> >> I'm sure there are lot more too
>>
>> 8. Chewing gum chewer who chews with their mouth open.
9 the person who leans over you to look through the window next to you.
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>> >> >> I'm sure there are lot more too
>> >>
>> >> 8. Chewing gum chewer who chews with their mouth open.
>>
>> 9 the person who leans over you to look through the window next to you.
Unless it's a yummy mummy with visible décolletage!
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>> and increasingly nowadays there are people who do not give two
>> hoots and let their kids roam free.
Indeed. On way home tonight there was a fractious toddler somewhere behind me. Mum takes him for a walk and of course he's drawn to my bike folded and on floor in the door lobby. Start twiddling pedals, Mother makes no attempt to stop him. Then he starts rattling it back and forth at which point I meekly point out it weighs about 20lb and might hurt him if he topples it.
Is it yours then says Mother.
Maybe fact that she was a yummy mummy tamed my response!!
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"Children are perfectly capable of behaving appropriately."
Appropriately?
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>>Appropriately?
Not sure I understand, but I mean according to the current environment - different behaviours being appropriate for different environments and situations.
Not clear?
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"Not clear?"
It wasn't, but it is now. I wasn't sure if you meant appropriate to current environment, or appropriate to the mental limitations of the child. I suspect that neither you, nor those who thumbed-up your remark, have come across kids with, say, autism or foetal alcohol syndrome.
Don't think that I am an apologist for bad behaviour - I cringe when a screaming kicker sits behind me on an aircraft.
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>> I suspect that neither you.....have come across kids with, say, autism
I don't know about the others, but in my case you'd be wrong.
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>> Children are perfectly capable of behaving appropriately. It is usually the parents who are challenged.
Alas, as a child, you cant choose your parents.
As I frequently reminded mine.
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"Flew my Kid to Australia (and back unfortunately)."
To meet Rolf?
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Small children make mess and noise, that's just life, no? Doesn't bother me too much, but it might cause stress to some people. On a plane it can be irritating but then I find lots of things irritating about planes, other adult passengers, lack of legroom and dismal food amongst them. I think a lot of it comes down to exposure, if you are not used to young kids being around then it can be tiring and irritating. There are often quite a lot of young kids at home over the summer months since we have lots of family near, cousins and their kids/friends etc., I think the fact we have a swimming pool might have something to do with it...Last Thursday when I got home there were six screaming excited kids under the age of 10 livening up the garden and pool, can't wait for winter, bah humbug. :-)
Regarding age groups I find most irritating then definitely mouthy 14 or 15 year olds are the worst, at that age they should know how to behave but they are the worst at the swimming pool where I do my relief lifeguard duties. I suppose they think they know everything, I might have thought the same at their age but was never mouthy, I don't think I was anyway, sure I wasn't...my parents would have made my life miserable. 13 and 16 year olds are fine, it's that 14/15 bit in-between, not sure if I can be bothered with all the hassle anymore for what I get out of it. It might be because some of them know my brother, so they deliberately play up a bit.
However sometimes it’s what people don’t do rather that can cause annoyance. On Thursday I was on the bus going into in central Bristol to visit a friend in the hospital, the bus was mainly full of pensioners making full use of their free travel cards, plus a few others. There was this young woman with toddler in pushchair plus a very young baby and a fair amount of shopping. When we got to the bus station everyone just legged it, no-one stopped to help her, she was clearly struggling a bit so I offered to help. I was expecting her to hand over some of the shopping bags but instead she thrust the baby in my arms and said thankyou, it came as a bit of a surprise, I wasn’t expecting to be given the baby! I’ve never held a baby before, it was probably only for a minute or two but it seemed ages, I was just hoping she would have it back…My Mum thought it was funny when I later told her about it. But when I was in Rome last summer for a holiday you would never see that, the Italian men would always rush to assist a young woman with a pushchair, they might end up with their bottom getting pinched but that’s just the way some of them are. You tend to see children more often in restaurants compared to England, it must be a cultural thing but I don’t think the UK is that tolerant to children compared to some other countries, although it may be down to bad parenting causing the intolerance.
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I have found that my age is inversely proportional to the amount of noise I can tolerate - if I have my hearing aids in, of course!
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I was in a bus whining up a mountain dirt road for a couple of hours once in North-West Tanzania, occupying a seat reserved by the conductor for high-status passengers, and no doubt having paid for it. The bus became crowded with many standing passengers, among them a lady apparently older than me, looking tired with her shopping, accompanied by a very small child whose face was on knee level and who risked being trampled. Her grandson probably.
I knew that everyone including the old lady herself would be horrified and baffled if I tried to give her my seat. So I had the nipper on my lap instead. He was as good as gold, ramrod straight, on his best behaviour, a boy of three or four. It may have lightened her task slightly, for a while. African women are often hard-working and physically fit. They put a lot of us to shame actually.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 27 Aug 13 at 20:38
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I bet they do A.C.Two years ago on holiday in Tunisia my wife and i where invited by a Tunisian family.One of the waiters parents.They fed us looked after us and talked about their lives in broken English and some French.The house owner was a tiler working on new properties.
Their simple way of live and the amount of hours he had to work took some believing.Makes you think how people not different from us have to survive.
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Children and shopping - commerdriver
