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One doesn't want to get off on the wrong foot, so, if writing a business letter to a female and not knowing if she is Married (Mrs) or Single (Ms) which salutation is appropriate?
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I use a title, e.g. "Dear Manager".
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I was too dim to think of using a job title! Thanks
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Some would regard Mrs as inappropriate even if they were married. Mrs. is not a safe salutation of you don't want to annoy the party.
So, Ms. in the address.
For a formal letter then shouldn't it be "Dear Madam...Yours faithfully"? Though Madam does seem archaic. When I write to the tax office with no one specific in mind I use Dear Sir or Madam, but I'm sure it makes no difference to them.
Or if you are feeling a bit matey*, Dear Ms. Featherstonhaugh...Yours sincerely/truly.
*very matey, Dear Marjorie...
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Your business still writes letters?
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Dear Sir/Madam. Salutation
Yours faithfully. Valediction
Dear Mr/Mrs /Ms Blogs. Salutation
Yours sincerely. Valediction.
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I wrote a fair few business letters for the BBC and on occasion wrote to MPs and the like. However, with very few exceptions, I was replying to them, so had their previous letter to go on and if in doubt, used the salutation they applied to themselves as if that caused offence - they'd be forever upset!
One can get advice on appropriate forms of address from Debretts, but really only higher ranking clergy caused me to look them up. Generally, the first name last name format is safe, use of titles where they don't use them can be iffy - I saw a Dani this morning that was a bloke! I once got told off by a person who had an inflated opinion of herself for using Dear Sir when I was uncertain of their sex, but it is correct, so I ignored it. Dictation I always said Dear Androgynous Being in such circumstances but we never actually sent letters like that, I was just winding the typist up!
Email is much less formal, initial contact address could be as simple as "Hi" but as with letters, I always signed myself first name last name and left the door open for them to use my first name on any reply.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Mon 19 Aug 13 at 10:41
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>>if she is Married (Mrs) or Single (Ms)
>> which salutation is appropriate?
>>
I don't think Ms means single. More commonly it means attached but militantly independent.
If you are feeling mischievous try Miss.
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Mrs is correct for a married woman, Miss for an unmarried one. However since Ms covers them all, and few women object to it while many, especially the very young, prefer it, I tend to use it as often as not, albeit with a bit of a scowl.
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I've always wondered, what exactly is Ms short for. Female royalty or a female army officer is correctly addressed after the initial use of the full title/rank as Ma'am but there are no 's's in that title.
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>> I've always wondered, what exactly is Ms short for. Female royalty or a female army
>> officer is correctly addressed after the initial use of the full title/rank as Ma'am but
>> there are no 's's in that title.
>>
Ms isn't really short for anything. It was adopted as a hybrid of Mrs/Miss for women who do not wish to disclose their marital status. While some may be 'militant' I've worked in environments where such usage was best practice to avoid sexist comments from certain types of citizen.
Oddly, the on line form for CRB checks assumes a Ms to be divorced.
More generally good practice is to follow people's own signature.
If inviting people to conferences or seminars I use Dear Colleague in mass mailed letters. Generally addressing is just to John Smith followed on next line by professional role and address but Judges, Privy Counsellors, Peers, Professors, Knights etc get their title and appropriate post nominals such as MP, CBE etc where known. Somewhere on line I can access 'Modes of Address' guidance covering such exceptions as retired Bishops etc.
Mercifully most people these days are not fussy about such things and I've had Lords Justices of Appeal happily wear a name badge that just gives their forename and surname.
Another conference organiser told me the real 'mare was medical confernces. Consultant Surgeons are of course Mr as opposed to Dr and can still get very sniffy about the differentiation. Not just from the Doctors but from the non-medical Misters as well!!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 19 Aug 13 at 13:43
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I think this covers all the rules/etiquette for formal and business letter writing. www.usingenglish.com/resources/letter-writing.php#rules
Last edited by: L'escargot on Mon 19 Aug 13 at 13:07
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I always right the first and last name if it's a lady and I don't know her proper title.
e.g. Dear Jane Smith.
Writing 'Dear Jane' would be far too informal and you can't just use the surname, as discussed.
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>> you can't just use the surname, as discussed.
Why? Correct mode of address if you don't know the person well is Dear Mrs/Miss/Ms (surname).
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>> >> you can't just use the surname, as discussed.
>>
>> Why? Correct mode of address if you don't know the person well is Dear Mrs/Miss/Ms
>> (surname).
>>
>>
My brother showed me the drop-down title list on the website of his American university.
After Mr, Mrs, Prof, Dr, etc came Sir, Lord, Bishop, Colonel, and many more.
Americans are surprisingly keen on titles, as a leading democracy, and actually have degrees of professor-ness. My brother for example is a Distinguished Professor.
Some are only acting however, and don't keep their titles on retirement.
A bit like "Captain" Mark Phillips.
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>> e.g. Dear Jane Smith.
Probably not in any etiquette books, but I do that too sometimes.
>> Writing 'Dear Jane' would be far too informal and you can't just use the surname,
>> as discussed.
You could say 'Dear Ms Smith'.
A lot of wimmin, a few of of the career ones I know anyway, object to both Miss and Mrs. even when you pick the right one. I can see why they might, but I'd pick another battle myself.
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I think this covers all the rules/etiquette for formal and business letter writing. www.usingenglish.com/resources/letter-writing.php#rules
Covers the basics, but even if you follow the rules, people with a deluded sense of the own importance can get upset. I've managed it :o)
As far as subject, good tip when writing to officials is to put the subject in bold, as a single line with nothing else.
ie
Dear John Fatso MP
The proposed gallows at Old Tyburn
Waffle etc...
MPs do it themselves, and so does the BBC Press Office so if it's good enough for them, it'll do for me.
PS That is the correct address form for an MP, no Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss here.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Mon 19 Aug 13 at 13:21
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Dear Sir Or Madam polite in my opinion.Or hello to whom it may concern.
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Surely you address the letter to John Fatso MP, but begin it 'Dear Mr Fatso'?
I never say Dear first name surname at the beginning of a letter. A lot of people do it but it seems gauche to me. A problem can only arise if the addressee, unknown to you, has a unisex first name and you make the wrong call on their gender. This has only happened to me once, but it may have lost me some work on that occasion.
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I dropped a clanger at work when I sent an email to a girl in China, addressing her by her first name. I wasn't aware that Chinese people write their family name first and their given name second.
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>> Chinese people write their
>> family name first and their given name second.
>>
Hungarians do too, or did until recently. My father in law always used to refer to the well-known figures of Hungarian history with their names back to front.
Kossuth Ladjos and Kun Bela.
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>> write their
>> family name first and their given name second.
>>
>> Hungarians do too
So do people in former French Africa. A bureaucratic hangover I think from the identity document the French made everyone carry.
So one often gets those names the wrong way round, but no one (or hardly anyone) gives a damn.
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My Christian name begins with "S", often instead of Dear Mr S Devonite, I get mail addressed as Dear Mrs Devonite, or am I opening "hers"? ;-/
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>> A problem can only arise
>> if the addressee, unknown to you, has a unisex first name and you make the
>> wrong call on their gender. This has only happened to me once, but it may
>> have lost me some work on that occasion.
Been there too AC. Also easy to trap yourself with names like William John or Richard Guy where forename/surname might easily be reversed.
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>> Been there too AC. Also easy to trap yourself with names like William John or
>> Richard Guy where forename/surname might easily be reversed.
I think if our surname had been a normal first name, I would have tried to give the children names that would be almost invariably first names.
I worked somewhere years ago where there was an important and very irascible banana called Murray Stewart.
A colleague of mine was already terrified of this bloke, and the prospect of a scheduled visit to our outpost had already reduced him to jelly.
Sure enough, when he turned up my colleague greeted him with "Hello Mr Murray".
The big cheese corrected him, "Stewart!"
"Well, come in Stewart, I'm Jeffrey..."
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Surely you address the letter to John Fatso MP, but begin it 'Dear Mr Fatso'?
Banged to rights, you are correct. You address the letter:
John Fatso MP
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA
But start the letter, Dear Mr Fatso
hat - coat - door...
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>> Surely you address the letter to John Fatso MP, but begin it 'Dear Mr Fatso'?
>>
>>
>> Banged to rights, you are correct. You address the letter:
>> John Fatso MP
>> House of Commons
>> London
>> SW1A 0AA
>>
>> But start the letter, Dear Mr Fatso
>>
>> hat - coat - door...
But if its Jean Fatso MP and there's no clue as to Miss/Mrs/Ms?
OTOH if she's Jean Fatso DBE, MP then Dear Dame Jean, would be appropriate.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 19 Aug 13 at 14:05
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But if its Jean Fatso MP and there's no clue as to Miss/Mrs/Ms?
MPs or anyone in the public eye is easy, one minute spent on t'internet will answer that question.
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>> A problem can only arise
>> if the addressee, unknown to you, has a unisex first name and you make the
>> wrong call on their gender. This has only happened to me once, but it may
>> have lost me some work on that occasion.
>>
As the possessor of a unisex name one gets used to it,
even won a bottle of champagne once when I went on a bowling night out just after joining a large project and won the prize for the worst female score, little hilarity when I collected the prize, the beard was a bit of a giveaway.
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I got fed up with online suppliers being over-familiar and starting their confirmation email "Dear Les". Now, when I fill in the order form I never use my Christian name and instead I put Mr L as my first name and Cargot as my surname. Sometimes the confirmation email starts correctly "Dear Mr Cargot", but sometimes it starts "Dear Mr L". There's got to be a way round it, but I've yet to find what it is.
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>>There's got to be a way round it, but I've yet to find what
>> it is.
>>
I've found it. Stop caring.
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One solution is to award the lady an academic title and address her as Dr.
You could of course finish the letter with a respectful "I remain, Ma'am, your obedient servant,".
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"Hi Sexy" should make her feel good about herself and get priority attention.
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Once you get past the salutation, has anyone here ever written "re yours of the third inst"? Substituting for third as appropriate of course.
I have a faint memory I might have written it once in a letter many moons ago, possibly as part of a letter writing exercise at my old fashioned school.
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I have, many times, when I was first in insurance. I've also written "of even date".
(Actually, never "re" more usually "In reply to yours of").
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 19 Aug 13 at 19:21
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>> Once you get past the salutation, has anyone here ever written "re yours of the
>> third inst"?
Oh yes.
In the 70s I worked in a bank branch, in what with hindsight were the final days of the Captain Mainwaring era. I was somewhere between Pike and Sergeant Wilson in the pecking order.
I'd worked in a couple of big branches, essential for anybody who wanted to "get on" but after I blotted my escutcheon, by arguing about my annual appraisal, I was banished to a 7-person branch in the boondocks.
There, I was simultaneously chief cashier (of 2), foreign clerk, safe custody clerk, and manager's clerk. The last duty consisted of writing mainly snotty letters on behalf of the manager, who looked exactly like Arthur Lowe but was actually a very nice man, to delinquent customers. The pleasant letters he drafted himself in longhand.
There were no typists in this little office, so I stabbed all these out on a typewriter with two copies and carbon paper. There was no Tippex, just an abrasive rubber, and the carbons were rendered nearly illegible by my many mistakes. The job wasn't made any easier by all the circumlocution that was expected, including "...by way of reply to your enquiry of the 14th inst., I regret to advise you that..." etc.
That said, it may have been less efficient than banks are today, but I'm sure it was more effective.
I didn't stay long of course, my career in banking having been doomed from the moment I was sent there. I can't say I fully appreciated it at the time, but they had correctly diagnosed that I was never going to fit in, and so did me a favour.
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Goodness Manatee, memories or what.
I worked in Threadneedle Street. My boss, supervisor or team leader level these days, was known as Mike. But his Boss was Mr. Burns to all. Even his secretary was Mrs. Wotsit and a total dragon feared by us all.
My letters were checked for grammar and form as much, if not more, than for content. I think I'd been there about 3 years before I was allowed to send a letter without having it checked and signed off.
>>it may have been less efficient than banks are today, but I'm sure it was more effective.
I don't know when life got driven by perceptions of efficiency, a word that virtually no-one understands the full implications of, when actually effectiveness should be the byword.
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I am still proud of my short letter in reply to an eviction notice.
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Dear Sir,
I remain.
Yours Sincerely,
MD
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Right up there with Nixon's resignation letter that one!
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Captain Blackadder:
Yes... take down a telegram, Bob.
To Mr. Charlie Chaplin, Sennet Studios, Hollywood, California.
Congrats stop. Have found only person in world less funny than you stop. Name Baldrick stop. Signed E. Blackadder stop.
Oh, and put a P.S.:
please, please, please stop.
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Getting back to the original question, when I am replying to a letter by a lady who has not identified whether she is "Miss" or "Mrs", I am always tempted to begin the letter "Dear Mrs / Miss Smith."
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>> Getting back to the original question, when I am replying to a letter by a
>> lady who has not identified whether she is "Miss" or "Mrs", I am always tempted
>> to begin the letter "Dear Mrs / Miss Smith."
>>
That would be being deliberately provocative. If you want the correspondence to remain civil you should say Dear Ms.
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Hence my use of the word "tempted".
:-)
Though, to be honest, I really don't do "Ms."
Shudder.
Last edited by: tyro on Tue 20 Aug 13 at 09:02
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>> Though, to be honest, I really don't do "Ms."
>>
>> Shudder.
>>
Everybody keeps telling me that I should move with the times, so you should as well.
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It's a horrid term, generally vocalised as Mzz and sounds dreadful when said. No problem with the idea, a marriage independent salutation for women and indeed, it is both sensible and logical.
However if that was the best that could be done, the mind boggles as to what the other suggestions were.
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I don't think i've used the term. intact I don't think i've ever written a formal letter to any one in particular. I few to a dept but no one in particular. Do people write so many formal letters?
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I thought Ms. was for lezzers.
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>> Everybody keeps telling me that I should move with the times, so you should as
>> well.
>>
Moving with the times is another thing that I don't do.
:-)
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Be not the first by whom the new is tried,
Nor yet the last to lay the old aside.
It'd not true of course, but anything that rhymes sounds plausible.
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Etiquette - Salutations in Letters/emails - Ambo
